Writer, poet, husband and Korean adoptee Nik Nadeau, also known as Im Chang Hoon, 36, talks about how writing has helped him find inner layers of himself and uncover memories. He also shares how he’s unlocking feelings towards his birth mother with the passage of time.

Special thanks to Jacquelyn Wells for original music.

(0:00:04) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 17 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:17) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:26) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive parents, and the wider society that wants only a feel-good story.

(0:00:39) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our voices.

(0:00:44) speaker_1: And so I had that, uh, story in my head, uh, as I began to make plans with my birth mother for the- the first few times, they all involved cheap motels.

(0:00:53) speaker_1:

(0:00:53) speaker_0: In this episode, I talk with Nik Nadeau. He’s a writer, poet, husband, and Korean adoptee in Minnesota.

(0:01:00) speaker_0: He will share some experiences being reunited with his Korean birth mother.

(0:01:05) speaker_0: But before we start, I want to plug the podcast to say we are midway through the final season for Adapted Podcast.

(0:01:13) speaker_0: This podcast has been powered by donations and the volunteering of time.

(0:01:17) speaker_0: If you’d like to help us in our final season or have been holding off, this is your chance to contribute, maybe your last chance.

(0:01:25) speaker_0: We still could use production help with an audio editor. There are monthly fees for subscriptions, and if you could help in any way, please go to patreon.com/adaptedpodcast.

(0:01:38) speaker_0: Thank you, and thanks to our past and current supporters, you’re the best. Now, here’s the episode.

(0:01:46) speaker_1: My name is Nik Nadeau, Korean name Im Chang Hoon. I live in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. My pronouns are he, him, and I’m 36, uh, going on soon on 37.

(0:01:54) speaker_0: Well, and Nik, can you give people a, uh, just kind of a snapshot of who you are and your life right now?

(0:01:54) speaker_1: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, I’d say I am, uh, what I call a strategically wandering English major.

(0:01:54) speaker_1: So I’ve done all kinds of things, um, uh, both in college as well, uh, as the last decade and a half, including living in Korea and teaching English there, uh, including moving back to the States and- and building a career, um, mostly centered on communications, uh, and eventually realizing that, uh, as important as that career was to me and still is, uh, I needed to go back to Korea to really spend more time with my birth family, to understand why I left Korea, um, when I had originally anticipated being there forever once- once I moved there.

(0:02:20) speaker_1: Um, and I would say I’m- I’m someone also who’s kind of rediscovering my artistic voice. I recently took a…

(0:03:05) speaker_1: And I’m just wrapping a year-long memoir writing class, and a lot of my writing probably not surprisingly is- is focused on my birth parents, in particular.

(0:03:30) speaker_1: I was really trying, uh, not to let that happen, mostly just because I didn’t want to be defined or confined to that, uh, just that lens.

(0:03:39) speaker_1: But, um, what comes out tends to come out, right, (laughs) when you’re doing creative writing. Um, and so I just… Yeah, I describe myself as a- an adoptee.

(0:03:48) speaker_1: Um, very proud Korean American transracial adoptee.

(0:03:52) speaker_1: Uh, grew up in Minnesota, um, whereas you are more than familiar, Kaomi, is- is home to historically the largest concentration of Korean adoptees in the world.

(0:04:01) speaker_1: Um, I’m married to, uh, a Korean American, um, who spent about half her life, uh, living in Minnesota and half in Korea.

(0:04:11) speaker_1: Uh, we have a dog, Penny, um, and we are- are coming up on our three-year wedding anniversary next month.

(0:04:17) speaker_0: Wow, congratulations.

(0:04:19) speaker_1: Oh, thanks. We’re- we’re really excited. We’re actually gonna do wedding photos this time because we couldn’t during COVID. Uh, we ran out of time.

(0:04:25) speaker_1: So-

(0:04:26) speaker_0: Oh.

(0:04:26) speaker_1: … um, I- uh, I’m eating too many cookies. I- I think I need to trim-

(0:04:30) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:04:31) speaker_1: … trim down (laughs) for next month.

(0:04:34) speaker_0: Well, um, uh, so, you know, you’re a writer. Um, do you have a problem with, um, a title adoptee writer?

(0:04:44) speaker_1: You know, that’s a great question. I- I don’t have a problem, uh, with those two words, um, being paired together in a way that describes me.

(0:04:55) speaker_1: Um, but I think, you know, I go back to that- that concept of narrative plenitude and- and representation, uh, plenitude or abundance where we may not, uh, as artists need to define ourselves as BIPOC, as, uh, transracial adoptees, um, as fill in the blank, in order to be- to be known.

(0:05:15) speaker_1: Uh, you know, I mean, when we think about, um, even athletes, uh, you know, actors, other, uh, folks who are expressing themselves in- in a given way, uh, I think we’re at a point, uh, at least within the Korean adoptee community, where, um, any “adopee memoir,” uh, adoptee, uh, you know, poetry collection or work of fiction, um, very well, uh, can and (laughs) has demonstrated that they- those works can stand on their own, um, and be judged against the very best, um, and reviewed in ways, uh, that go far beyond, uh, any one identity or any one experience.

(0:05:56) speaker_1: Uh, at the same time, uh, I’d say my, uh……

(0:05:59) speaker_1: artistic journey has been one where I’ve constantly tried to, um, steer away, uh, or find myself, uh, D- you know, kind of boxing myself in and wanting to break out of that, and, and constantly coming back, um, whether, (laughs) I’m fond of, of that process or not, to, to adoption or something related to my experience as an adoptee.

(0:06:21) speaker_1: So, um, you know, I don’t think I’m alone in that experience.

(0:06:25) speaker_1: You know, we constantly want to be recognized for, uh, our work and our talents, but we also, uh, want folks to understand who we are and, and the experiences that, uh, have helped inform who we are, but not defined us.

(0:06:38) speaker_1:

(0:06:38) speaker_2: You mentioned that, um, you, when you started your writing project, that you, it didn’t sound like it was, you set out to ha- be a memoir, but, i- has it become one?

(0:06:53) speaker_2:

(0:06:53) speaker_1: It definitely has.

(0:06:55) speaker_1: Um, and I, I’m, so, um, so honored to, uh, and, and really privileged to have taken a yearlong course that’s just wrapping up through the Loft Literary Center, taught by the incredible Sun Yung Shin, um, a poet, uh, whose work, uh, again, could stand on its own, hold a candle to every, uh, collection of poetry out there, um, and also is a transracial adoptee, um, here in Minnesota.

(0:07:23) speaker_1: And, uh, that was a, uh, creative nonfiction and memoir class.

(0:07:28) speaker_1: Um, and so, uh, I chose to enroll in that course, uh, after, I would say, several years of trying to figure out, you know, uh, first it was YA, then it was more narrative nonfiction, then it was, um, a little more audio or multimedia for a while.

(0:07:45) speaker_1: Uh, I’ve dabbled in playwriting and, and I think coming back, uh, home to my home of expression really is in creative nonfiction, uh, at least right now.

(0:07:55) speaker_1: Uh, and so, uh, for now it’s shaping up as a memoir, um, and, uh, I also am really inspired by work that, uh, doesn’t, uh, you know, regard the label memoir as, uh, you know, as a, a box or a set of limits.

(0:08:14) speaker_1: Uh, you can do a lot within the form of memoir, um, and as I’m learning both as a student of writing a- and, and a writer is, you know, memory itself, um, is, uh, often incomplete.

(0:08:28) speaker_1: It’s elusive. Um, the process of remembering itself can be, uh, triggering and/or can surface, uh, individual or, or, or generational trauma.

(0:08:39) speaker_1: And so I think I’ve learned a lot in this process, and part of what I’ve learned is, it’s okay, uh, to not remember everything, even the things that I really wish I remember more of.

(0:08:51) speaker_1: Um, every single moment I spent with my birth mom, the, the year I met her in 2010, or reunited with her, uh, I don’t have a lot.

(0:08:59) speaker_1: Uh, I have tons of fixtur- pictures and, and videos and notes, um, but I still don’t have as much as I’d like.

(0:09:06) speaker_1: And, and yet I find myself remembering things that, um, I, (laughs) I, I did not recall, uh, until I began the process of, um, digesting and, and really understanding those experiences on paper.

(0:09:21) speaker_1:

(0:09:21) speaker_2: And how old were you, Nick, when you, you know, lost your first family?

(0:09:26) speaker_1: Uh, 14 months is when I was adopted, minus four would be around 10 months.

(0:09:31) speaker_1: Um, and so, uh, whether the word is, you know, relinquished or something else, um, my, uh, uh, birth father was the one to take me into, uh, essentially the, the agency.

(0:09:46) speaker_1: Um, my birth mother, uh, she believes, (laughs) uh, she doesn’t quite, uh, it, that day was kind of a, a blurry mess for understandable reasons.

(0:09:54) speaker_1: But it’s, it, based on her memory, she was waiting out- outside the door.

(0:09:59) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, that actually makes sense because the, the accounts, uh, that were documented were entirely my birth father’s, and I think that that sort of bias (laughs) shows up in, in what I knew growing up versus sort of the perspective and the level of detail I received, uh, once I, uh, was able to reunite with my birth mother.

(0:10:18) speaker_1: But I was, yeah, I was 10 months old.

(0:10:20) speaker_2: And, um, it’s kind of interesting to, you know, sort of get an idea of where, and I know your, your, um, your memoir is, uh, a work in progress still, but where do you begin?

(0:10:34) speaker_2:

(0:10:34) speaker_1: Oh, gosh.

(0:10:35) speaker_1: I mean, I started, uh, Sun Yung’s class, uh, essentially, uh, drafting an outline, um, which in, in many ways was just a kitchen sink list of pretty much any memory I had, um, any significant event, um, you know, anything that could potentially provide fodder.

(0:10:57) speaker_1: And I was stuck.

(0:10:58) speaker_1: Uh, I mean, this class began in, in mid to late summer of 2023, and, uh, I, I won’t hide it, I, I pretty much didn’t write a word for the first two or three months because any time I tried, um, you know, it wasn’t just a standard writer’s block.

(0:11:15) speaker_1: It was, it was, uh, an emotional block, uh, uh, I think that resulted from years and years of only getting these stories and experiences out in fragments.

(0:11:26) speaker_1: Um, so I just started with this list that I thought would be the guide, uh, to fleshing out a memoir, and, um, around early October, I think it was actually October 1st of last year in 2023, I, uh, attended a, uh, adoptee poetry workshop, uh, led by the incredible Lee Herrick, the Poet Laureate of California, uh, as well as Jennifer Kwon Dobbs, um, who I’ve long admired and, uh, teaches poetry at St.

(0:11:54) speaker_1: Olaf College, uh, in southern Minnesota. And, um, I’ll never forget that day. It was, uh-…

(0:12:02) speaker_1: a day full of adoptees, um, every single one, and, uh, we, we shared together about our experiences. We cried together, we wrote poetry together.

(0:12:14) speaker_1: Uh, we talked about what it means to, uh, to write poetry or produce creative work as adoptees, um, including some of the questions that you’ve already been asking.

(0:12:25) speaker_1: And, and also, by the end of that workshop, uh, uh, I wouldn’t say I felt inspired. I would say I felt, uh, like emotionally exposed.

(0:12:34) speaker_1: I felt, uh, in a, in a good, productive, safe way, I felt like, uh, something had come to the surface and it was actually a prompt, uh, I think that Lee gave, um, which was to start with the word suppose and to, um, see where that takes you.

(0:12:51) speaker_1: Given that adoption, uh, you know, really is that, uh, kind of experience where supposing, uh, is just part of the game.

(0:13:02) speaker_1: Um, you, you’re supposing your entire life, uh, about your origin story, including after you meet your birth family.

(0:13:09) speaker_1: Um, and you’re doing a lot of supposing, uh, even around what you’re, uh, if you have the privilege of reuniting, what your birth family members are telling you.

(0:13:19) speaker_1: Um, and sometimes it syncs up, sometimes it’s not. There’s also a lot of emotional supposing, you know, are my memories, uh, themselves reliable?

(0:13:29) speaker_1: Are my, my mother’s, you know? And so, um, I wrote essentially a, the begin- beginnings of a poem.

(0:13:36) speaker_1: That poem turned into, uh, a fairly long letter addressed to my birth mother, and that also led to a letter that I, uh, addressed to my birth father.

(0:13:46) speaker_1: And that was really the opening, um, to the manuscript that I have now.

(0:13:53) speaker_1: Um, and I think so far what I’ve found is, um, anything that, uh, I want to write or that I intend to write, um, uh, tends to be not overshadowed, but I think just, um, just kind of out-competed (laughs) by, uh, uh, the unfinished emotional business of addressing both, uh, a parent that I know well, um, in some ways and is a stranger to me in some ways, uh, and a parent, uh, also that I may never be able to know due to his refusal to, to meet me even though he’s aware of my existence.

(0:14:29) speaker_1: So, um, it’s been a really up and down year.

(0:14:33) speaker_1: Um, and coming out of it, I’m so, so glad that I chose to embark on this endeavor and it’s, it’s just, it’s just beginning. (laughs) Okay, Homie?

(0:14:43) speaker_1: It’s-

(0:14:44) speaker_2: (laughs)

(0:14:44) speaker_1: … um, it’s a, it’s a long ride that I’ve signed myself up for, but a good one.

(0:14:48) speaker_2: Are you accepting pre-sales? (laughs)

(0:14:51) speaker_1: You know, uh, I just, what was it? Um, you know, pre-orders are, uh, sort of a, a writer’s, you know, best friend, biggest compliment.

(0:15:00) speaker_1: Um, and so, uh, we’re not at that stage yet.

(0:15:04) speaker_1: I’m still aiming to, uh, complete a manuscript to, um, begin the process of querying agents, um, who, on my behalf will then be pitching to editors.

(0:15:15) speaker_1: Uh, I think for me the main thing is I want to contribute, um, in a way that’s authentic to me.

(0:15:21) speaker_1: Um, but also, um, you know, adds to the body of literature that we are so very fortunate to have, um, through adoptee writers.

(0:15:31) speaker_1: Um, for me it started with reading Language of Blood by Jane Jung Trunka.

(0:15:37) speaker_1: Um, and from there, uh, I think we’ve seen an explosion since that time, uh, of not just memoir, but, uh, now we have speculative YA fiction coming out from Shannon Gibney.

(0:15:48) speaker_1: Uh, we have, uh, obviously the beautiful writing of Nicole Chung. Um, we have, uh, poetry, uh, from Sun Yung Shin.

(0:15:58) speaker_1: And also, uh, these are not just Korean adoptees. (laughs) Um, these are not just transracial adoptees.

(0:16:05) speaker_1: And so I, I’m really, uh, encouraged and inspired by, uh, what I think is a, uh, a really, uh, pivotal turning point.

(0:16:15) speaker_1: Uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, a, a point where I think all of the work and investment that, uh, my, uh, community has made into itself, uh, as an adoptee community, and also that so many artists have contributed to, I’m now benefiting from that.

(0:16:32) speaker_1: And I’m so fortunate to be in this time.

(0:16:36) speaker_2: You know, a lot of us are sometimes, um, you know, feel, uh, reluctant to talk about, um, our feelings around, surrounding, uh, uh, our own adoption and life and, um, you know, because I think a lot of us grow up with this, th- this obligation to not only our adoptive parents, but maybe, you know, if you’re in reunion with your, um, you know, first parents that you feel obligated to protect them or, and/or, um, protect those relationships.

(0:17:17) speaker_2: Um, not wanting to cause ruptures and, and sometimes that can be difficult because you may not feel, you may feel constrained to actually tell your sta- story.

(0:17:28) speaker_2: Was that your experience? Or was that a process for you?

(0:17:32) speaker_1: You know, I think there was a, a time where, uh, I believed that it wasn’t.

(0:17:40) speaker_1: Um, there was a time where I felt that, um, I myself wasn’t, uh, contributing to, uh, that reluctance and, and my adoptive parents or my, my birth mother, uh, or birth family members weren’t either.

(0:17:56) speaker_1: I think I now have a little more of a nuanced understanding of, um, you know, for example, my birth mother’s shame, um, that she carries….

(0:18:07) speaker_1: uh, you know, completely not something that, uh, she deserves to carry.

(0:18:12) speaker_1: Uh, but, uh, something that, nonetheless, even last week, uh, which I can talk about, she, uh, called me, uh, in tears after several weeks of- of no contact, which was extremely, uh, rare, um, for her not to reply, uh, to a message.

(0:18:32) speaker_1: Uh, my wife and I were just informing her that we’d be in Korea the following, uh, month or two months later.

(0:18:38) speaker_1: And, uh, I learned a few things about my, uh, birth mother’s experience that I- I hadn’t known before.

(0:18:46) speaker_1: And also, I learned that emotionally she- she does carry a lot of shame. Um, sometimes in ways that I’m, uh, not totally aware of, even now.

(0:18:56) speaker_1: Uh, and my adoptive parents, um, you know, are wonderful, loving parents, um, and also not perfect parents.

(0:19:04) speaker_1: And I think, um, for me, uh, as (laughs) a loving but imperfect son, uh, I’ve been learning that, uh, you know, sometimes in silence there is also, uh, shame or reluctance.

(0:19:16) speaker_1: And I would say, uh, my own conversations, uh, about my, uh, birth family, about Korea, uh, are not necessarily, uh, they don’t come up that often, uh, with my adoptive parents.

(0:19:28) speaker_1: And- and it’s partially because they don’t really ask, and it’s partially because I don’t really offer.

(0:19:33) speaker_1: It’s not that we can’t go there, uh, if we choose to, but, um, what I’ve realized is, uh, uh, I would say each of my family members knows only a very particular side of me.

(0:19:45) speaker_1: Uh, only a very particular part, uh, that also, uh, happens to be, uh, the part of me that they can understand best from their own personal experience, uh, and world view, uh, and geography.

(0:19:59) speaker_1: Um, and so something that I’ve long wanted but may never get is the opportunity to- to be able to have those worlds m- merge, or at least, uh, encounter each other, not just for me.

(0:20:12) speaker_1: I think I actually have quite a bit of ability and privilege to do that, but for- for my adoptive parents and my- my birth family to meet.

(0:20:20) speaker_1: Uh, but not just for that, but for my adoptive parents to experience Korea. They- they didn’t, um, uh, need to, uh, when they adopted me.

(0:20:27) speaker_1: They weren’t required to visit, um, and probably would not have been able to afford to adopt me had- had they been required to do a home visit of sorts.

(0:20:34) speaker_1: My birth mother, um, for many reasons, one of which I’m a secret, uh, from her husband and my two half-siblings.

(0:20:42) speaker_1: Uh, also she, uh, doesn’t make a lot of money. She has a- a really, um, you know, intense work schedule.

(0:20:50) speaker_1: Uh, and, uh, there may not be, uh, a scenario where, um, those, uh, worlds and those people that I love could actually encounter one another, and that’s- um, that’s one thing of many that I’ve- I’ve been grieving lately.

(0:21:04) speaker_1: Um, so I- I think it’s- it’s a long journey of trying to understand, um, you know, uh, what am I willing to accept?

(0:21:15) speaker_1: Uh, what limits or constraints am I willing to accept, and what am I willing to push through because I really believe I deserve it, and also because it’s possible?

(0:21:25) speaker_1:

(0:21:25) speaker_2: You know, um, Dr. Sarah Dokun-Morgan, I’ve heard her describe-

(0:21:33) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:21:33) speaker_2: … this discursive burden.

(0:21:35) speaker_1: Yes. Yep.

(0:21:37) speaker_2: And, uh, I’m hearing that, um, do you feel that there’s been a… That you have a…

(0:21:43) speaker_2: This- this discursive burden of in a way having to code switch with different parent family, Korean family and your American family?

(0:21:53) speaker_2: Or maybe not code switch is the right word, but that you become, have to be a different person to each? Or maybe-

(0:22:03) speaker_1: Ah, yeah.

(0:22:04) speaker_2: … maybe not have to is the word, but you just are a different person.

(0:22:08) speaker_1: Oh, that’s- that’s such a great question.

(0:22:12) speaker_1: Um, you know, I think discursive burden is such a- an accurate, um, way to describe what it feels like to, um, alternate between those realities.

(0:22:27) speaker_1: And I- I would agree that it’s code switching. I would- I would say that at least on the surface, yeah, when I think about it, it…

(0:22:33) speaker_1: Tha- that’s what it amounts to.

(0:22:35) speaker_1: Um, you know, when I’m visiting my adoptive parents here in Minnesota, we- we talk about, um, you know, each other and- and our lives and work.

(0:22:44) speaker_1: We talk about, uh, the Minnesota Twins and how terrible they are. We talk about, um, the Minnesota Vikings and how terrible they are.

(0:22:52) speaker_1: That’s a- that’s a tangent. (laughs) Uh, a lot of min- mediocre Minnesota sports we can talk about.

(0:22:57) speaker_1: (laughs) um, we talk about, um, you know, uh, a lot of substantive things too, but w- you know, these are, um, conversations that revolve around, um, not just Minnesota, but- but, you know, my- my suburban kind of small town upbringing in Minnesota.

(0:23:15) speaker_1: Um, you know, my immediate relatives in Minnesota. My immediate friends, uh, not necessarily in Minnesota, but that they’re familiar with.

(0:23:24) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, I think not just adoptees but, you know, second or third gen, uh, you know, Asian-Americans, uh, and/or folks who, uh, have gone to college, are first generation college students.

(0:23:37) speaker_1: For a variety of reasons, um, the person that you become in- in large part often as a result of the sacrifices that your parents have made are also ironically the things that end up being, um, end up leading to spaces, uh, that, um, you know, your parents or other family members just are unable to enter with you.

(0:23:58) speaker_1: Uh, and with my birth mother, um-You know, first of all, there’s the language barrier.

(0:24:05) speaker_1: My, my Korean I would say is in permanent intermediate stage as, as, um, embarrassed or as, as really disappointed as I would have been to say that, uh, 10 or 15 years ago when I was studying Korean really diligently.

(0:24:18) speaker_1: (laughs) I’m actually really proud of that now. Um, uh, I’ve plateaued, uh, and not totally taken a dive.

(0:24:24) speaker_1: Um, so my, my Korean is at least good enough where I, I can speak directly with my mother. Um, uh, I don’t- I don’t need a translator.

(0:24:32) speaker_1: I certainly would benefit linguistically from having one, but there is also, um, so much more benefit when you have that, that privacy and that confidentiality together.

(0:24:42) speaker_1: Um, but with my birth mom, you know, I, I realized this week, and it is- it is literally this week, Kyomi, it’s such great timing to have this conversation.

(0:24:52) speaker_1: Um, I’ve realized that I don’t think I’ve objectively done enough to invest in my relationship with my birth mother, in part because, um, it- it- it’s not just emotionally taxing, although it certainly is.

(0:25:08) speaker_1: I think it’s- it’s just like linguistically taxing.

(0:25:11) speaker_1: (laughs) It’s like if it’s 7:30 on a Sunday, it’s a lot easier to call up a friend or text someone in English, um, than it is to come up with the same sort of check-in question, uh, with my mother.

(0:25:23) speaker_1: And- and this is true even though my, my wife is bilingual, um, and is usually, you know, a foot away to help me craft, uh, a question or discover, uh, a new word or phrase.

(0:25:36) speaker_1: Um, and- and yet I find myself, um, in a position now where I, uh, in talking with my therapist, um, uh, and understanding that my birth mother is- is in a really acute crisis right now, uh, with- with many complex layers, uh, this is a time for me to really, uh, begin to check in with her more, begin to, uh, just share photos with her more, to- to share jokes, um, funny things that happen, random things that happen, the kinds of things that, um, a mother and a son in a- a fairly normal, healthy relationship would do.

(0:26:14) speaker_1: Um, it’s been 14 years, Kyomi, and I don’t know if I’ve ever done that.

(0:26:19) speaker_1: I don’t know if I’ve ever felt, um, that I’ve done enough, and I also don’t know why.

(0:26:26) speaker_1: I don’t know if it’s just laziness, if it’s, um, emotional blockage or, um, something entirely different.

(0:26:35) speaker_1: So I- I’m learning to accept, uh, you know, the role that I can play while also understanding that, uh, these are really complex realities we navigate as adoptees.

(0:26:46) speaker_1: And I- I think, uh, as it happened last time, I forgot what your question was, Kyomi. (laughs) We’ve, uh,

(0:26:52) speaker_3: Oh, no.

(0:26:53) speaker_1: … we’ve

(0:26:53) speaker_4: Oh, no. That was great. I, I was just, um… I think I was just wondering, you know, how much i- is it in your subconscious that…

(0:27:09) speaker_4: Or how much are you conscious of that they might read these words, and, um-

(0:27:17) speaker_1: Oh, yeah.

(0:27:17) speaker_4: … you- you know, that, that has to be a bit of a burden as well.

(0:27:22) speaker_1: Well, uh, first of all, um, absolutely from a perspective of just physical and emotional safety for my birth mother, uh, I’m a secret.

(0:27:33) speaker_1: Uh, uh, she does not, uh, disclose, uh, my existence to her husband, who’s not my birth father, or to my, my two half-siblings.

(0:27:42) speaker_1: I tried in 2016 when I was living in Korea, um, for the second time to persuade her to at least introduce me to my half-siblings.

(0:27:50) speaker_4: Mm-hmm.

(0:27:50) speaker_1: Uh, that unfortunately didn’t, uh, work out.

(0:27:53) speaker_1: Um, but also potentially fortunately, I- I- I- I now understand a bit more, uh, I think y- each year, you know, what, um, type of risks she assumes in- in making a decision like that.

(0:28:06) speaker_1: Uh, but I- I decided in starting my memoir project to- to just put all that aside and to write honestly, um, but still in a way where I could go back if, um, I was fortunate to be, uh, in a situation where that writing would be published or otherwise, you know, be made public beyond, um, just my own computer that, uh, I would have options, um, that I would be able to make changes, share with my birth mother, uh, and/or other members of my family.

(0:28:42) speaker_1: Uh, but for now, um, you know, I want to start, uh, at the point of truth, and, um, and go from there.

(0:28:50) speaker_1: And even that permission t- that I gave myself, I think, Kyomi, took me…

(0:28:55) speaker_1: I think that was a big part of those two to three months of just utter blockage last fall, uh, was to give myself permission writing things that I would not e- ever immediately put into print anywhere, um, because they might endanger my mom or expose her.

(0:29:13) speaker_1: Um, and, and I think the emotional breakthroughs that I’ve had have also come, uh, I think have- have come about in part because, uh, I’m acknowledging more the position that I’m in as an adoptee, um, that having to worry, uh, every single time I message my mother if her husband might find out, um, it- it’s basically like having an affair, uh, with my mother, uh, I describe it to many people.

(0:29:44) speaker_1: Um, and that, uh, kind of carries into my writing, and- and I don’t want it to right now.

(0:29:49) speaker_1: I don’t think that’s fair to me, um, and I certainly don’t think it would be fair to my birth mother to- to be put in danger, to be surprised.

(0:29:58) speaker_1: But right now, uh, in the safety of my own, my own word doc, uh, I’m just gonna, uh, be as truthful with myself as I can knowing that….

(0:30:06) speaker_1: uh, there will be time and, uh, a time and a place, um, for making sure that, that everyone’s safe.

(0:30:12) speaker_1: The other thing I’d add is, is the one thing I haven’t been able to write a whole lot about, uh, even in my own writing right now, is my adoptive family, um, particularly my parents, and I think that’s coming.

(0:30:25) speaker_1: Um, there’s a lot of processing going on right now, uh, but, uh, I, I think that’s the next horizon for me, and, and I’m looking forward to getting there, and also dreading getting there.

(0:30:37) speaker_1:

(0:30:37) speaker_2: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:30:38) speaker_1: But, um, I’m almost certain that’s the next, uh, the next sort of cliff that I’ll be climbing, uh, uh, as I continue to develop that manuscript.

(0:30:49) speaker_2: Nick, you said you, you’ve been in Reunion now for 14 years?

(0:30:53) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:30:55) speaker_2: Uh-

(0:30:55) speaker_1: Almost exactly now, uh, April of 2010, so pretty much exactly 14 years.

(0:31:00) speaker_2: Oh, to the month. Um-

(0:31:01) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:31:02) speaker_2: … could you… would you mind sharing a little bit about how you found her, or found each other, and also, what you’d say about being in Reunion?

(0:31:16) speaker_1: So many things. Um, so I’ll, I’ll start with just the, the factuals.

(0:31:22) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:31:22) speaker_1: Um, you know, I, uh, I was, um, probably a senior in high school, or very close, uh, to that, when I first seriously started considering a beginning a birth family search.

(0:31:38) speaker_1: Um, you know, my… I call them my Minnesota parents, they were very supportive. Um, there wasn’t a…

(0:31:44) speaker_1: fortunately, you know, a, a period of persuading or convincing there.

(0:31:49) speaker_1: Um, but I think because I was not yet 18 when I contacted Children’s Home Society here in St.

(0:31:55) speaker_1: Paul, my adoption agency, uh, I think I needed to sign something or have them give some sort of a consent. I can’t remember. But, um-

(0:32:03) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:32:04) speaker_1: … you know, uh, I was around, uh, the age where I was just legally not yet an adult.

(0:32:10) speaker_1: Uh, but I don’t think I, uh, I went through with that process right away. So I sat on it a little bit. I’m not sure why.

(0:32:17) speaker_1: I, I’m actually exploring in my writing why that was.

(0:32:22) speaker_1: And I, uh, I actually didn’t begin searching until, uh, November of 2009, and this was when I was, um, in Korea through the Fulbright program.

(0:32:32) speaker_1: I was teaching English in essentially the middle of nowhere in Korea, uh, uh, in a region a lot of Koreans don’t even (laughs) know much about.

(0:32:40) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, uh, you know, I, I can’t think of a moment in time where, um, just this light bulb went off and I, I was just like, “Oh, of course.

(0:32:52) speaker_1: ” I think it was very gradual for me, in terms of the decision to search.

(0:32:56) speaker_1: Um, I was very connected with the adoptee community at that time, uh, especially the community living in Korea.

(0:33:03) speaker_1: Uh, I was very connected with GOAL, uh, and other organizations who support adoptees, uh, and, and offer services.

(0:33:10) speaker_1: Um, but I just did it the old-fashioned way. Um, I started with, uh, a search, uh, through my St.

(0:33:19) speaker_1: Paul based agency, um, and, uh, uh, that, uh, social worker was able to locate my birth mother in three months.

(0:33:28) speaker_2: Wow.

(0:33:28) speaker_1: Which is almost unheard of.

(0:33:30) speaker_2: Yeah.

(0:33:31) speaker_1: Uh, you know, lightning fast, uh, and what’s also, um, you know, very fortunate for me is she was willing to meet with me and was not, um, you know, hesitant or reluctant to make that clear.

(0:33:41) speaker_1: Uh, which is also such a privilege.

(0:33:44) speaker_1: You know, there, there wasn’t a guessing game, um, there wasn’t this sort of, you know, time to think, uh, back and forth game of tennis, uh, which is very (laughs) understandable, but just was not, uh, my experience.

(0:33:57) speaker_1: And so, um, uh, we met, uh, uh, in a time when I was living in Korea, number one, and also in a time where I, (laughs) I was studying Korean a lot.

(0:34:09) speaker_1: And so, um, uh, I think the, the first thing I would say, um, you know, about Reunion is that, uh, it never works out the same for any one person.

(0:34:22) speaker_1: Um, families are just too different. (laughs) And, and family circumstances are too different.

(0:34:28) speaker_1: Um, and, and so, uh, I was very lucky, and I use that word with a lot (laughs) of understanding about, um, what being lucky or grateful, um, you know, the, the sort of connotations that that word can have as an adoptee.

(0:34:41) speaker_1: But I, I do consider myself to be really privileged in, in that I was able to connect with her so directly and so quickly.

(0:34:48) speaker_1: Um, and so, I, I remember I was at my friend’s homestay’s house, uh, apartment in Seoul.

(0:34:56) speaker_1: I was watching the 2010 Winter Olympics, the Vancouver, uh, Olympics, um, and I was, uh, seeing Apollo Anton Owner, uh, Apollo Anton Ohno do laps.

(0:35:10) speaker_1: Uh, I think it was the 1000 meter, if I’m not mistaken, and I remember so clearly watching, uh, that competition on TV, and then seeing on my email, um, a, a message, a reply from my social worker that, uh, said that they had located my mother that included an attachment which was essentially a screenshot of a handwritten letter she had given me, um, and a few options of, of next steps.

(0:35:40) speaker_1: Um, and so that, uh, probably was… When were the Winter Olympics, you know, February maybe? 2010?

(0:35:47) speaker_1: And, and from there, it was just a couple of months of planning, um, where I took, you know, a, a weekend off.

(0:35:55) speaker_1: Um, I stayed overnight with my, uh, one of my fellow Fulbright friends Daniel, um, at his homestay, and I remember that because they had a puppy, (laughs) and, um, the puppy was really cute, and I just…

(0:36:07) speaker_1: You know, who, who doesn’t want a therapy dog before you meet your birth mom, right? So-

(0:36:11) speaker_2: Yes, that, certainly.

(0:36:11) speaker_1: Uh, I slept at his house. We… Uh, I was so nervous.

(0:36:15) speaker_1: I, I mean, I was just an emotional wreck, and, uh, I was ironing this white dress shirt, but then-Um, I was burning it with the iron, and then I was trying to wash it out with water.

(0:36:26) speaker_1: But then if you iron a shirt that’s still damp, you’re just gonna burn it more.

(0:36:30) speaker_1: Um, so I was a wreck that night, and the next morning before I left, um, to meet my birth mother to take a bus, uh, I just wanted to, to meet the puppy and, and, you know, just calm myself down a bit.

(0:36:42) speaker_1: So, I, I went outside, picked it up, and, uh, the cutest puppy in the world peed all over my shirt. (laughs)

(0:36:48) speaker_5: (laughs)

(0:36:49) speaker_1: So I went back to, to rinsing, and ironing, and burning, and rinsing, and ironing, and burning.

(0:36:53) speaker_1: And by the end, I just, you know, I just was like, “Well, I gotta catch my bus.” Um, so I caught the bus.

(0:37:00) speaker_1: Um, my birth mom and her brother, my uncle, uh, my kkeungoe samjon, my oldest uncle, took a wrong turn, I guess, so I actually had a couple more hours to kill.

(0:37:09) speaker_1: Um, we met in Daejeon, which is-

(0:37:11) speaker_5: Oh, agonizing, right?

(0:37:13) speaker_1: Oh, it was. I, I had my photo album, so I was just like, you know, rearranging all of the pictures in exact chronological order.

(0:37:20) speaker_1: Like, I didn’t know what else to do. Um, a- and just trying to stay calm even though I was in this very empty… Yellow. I just remember a lot of…

(0:37:29) speaker_1: There was a lot of yellow walls. The, the, the couch was kind of this, like, overstuffed vinyl couch that was, like, this not great hue of, like, yellow-brown.

(0:37:39) speaker_1: And then, um, it was a very clean, you know, environment. It was essentially a, um, a, a support center for unwed mothers.

(0:37:47) speaker_1: But, uh, it, it just felt very, um, surreal to be waiting in a room like that.

(0:37:52) speaker_1: Uh, and when they arrived, um, I actually wrote a poem about the, the first, um, moments, uh, that my birth mother met me.

(0:38:01) speaker_1: And it’s funny, because, um, uh, the first thing that happened was she, she stiff-armed me. So like-

(0:38:08) speaker_5: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:08) speaker_1: … I went in for a hug, I mean, being, I don’t know, the American I am. But also, like, I mean, across cultures who doesn’t really hug when they e- embrace?

(0:38:15) speaker_1: Um, you know, I, I shouldn’t say that. There are some adoptees who have-

(0:38:18) speaker_5: But that’s what the narrative about reunion tells us is, you know, there’s this big sloppy hug and-

(0:38:24) speaker_1: Oh, it’s on TV kayle me. There’s, um, there’s tears, um, and celebrating, and, and… But my mom, uh, wouldn’t even let me.

(0:38:32) speaker_1: Um, and it wasn’t because she didn’t like me or didn’t want to. Uh, but I just remember how strong she was. She, she’s, like, maybe 4’10”. She’s tiny.

(0:38:41) speaker_1: Uh, I’m 5’6″, um, but I, uh, I still remember, um, that was like, uh, you know…

(0:38:48) speaker_1: This reveals me as, like, really American, but, uh, like, a true, like, you know, American football-style stiff arm. (laughs) It was just like, boom-

(0:38:59) speaker_5: Oh.

(0:38:59) speaker_1: … right in my shoulder. And she looked right into my eyes, and the first thing that she said to me was that I looked exactly like my father-

(0:39:06) speaker_5: Oh.

(0:39:06) speaker_1: … um, in Kore- in Korean. And I was like, “Okay.” (laughs)

(0:39:11) speaker_5: (laughs)

(0:39:11) speaker_1: I didn’t know what to say, and then, and then, uh, we embraced. Um, there was an interpreter there. Uh, my uncle was there.

(0:39:19) speaker_1: Um, I came alone, and so, uh, we were in a room for, like, an hour or two.

(0:39:24) speaker_1: I had prepared, I think, literally 20 questions, um, uh, that I had translated into Korean, painstakingly, uh, edited, ran by my co-teachers, my Korean-speaking friends.

(0:39:35) speaker_1: Um, I had asked my birth mother for permission to record the conversation, um, but she, she didn’t feel comfortable with that, which was understandable.

(0:39:44) speaker_1: But I, as a result, was, was just really concerned.

(0:39:47) speaker_1: My main concern, honestly, was that I was going to lose a lot of the information she gave because, of course, in those situations you don’t necessarily know if you’re going to meet again.

(0:39:56) speaker_1: Um, and I, I was really, uh, afraid, frankly, of having a conversation that I would then forget. Uh, the second thing I remember is, um, like…

(0:40:08) speaker_1: I was very insistent on using Korean and, and, uh, as much as I could (laughs) with my birth mom and my uncle.

(0:40:15) speaker_1: And at some point, uh, I realized they couldn’t understand me. And it wasn’t… I, I’m biased, of course.

(0:40:22) speaker_1: But it, I, I truly believe it wasn’t because, you know, they, they linguistically, cognitively couldn’t understand me.

(0:40:29) speaker_1: I think that was the first time they’d heard a non-native Korean speaker.

(0:40:34) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, I tried to explain, you know, uh, in Korean there’s, there’s, I think, over 500 verb endings.

(0:40:41) speaker_1: (laughs) Uh, I knew maybe, uh, 20 that I would be using, uh, you know, regularly in conversation.

(0:40:48) speaker_1: Um, add in a couple thousand words, and that’s about it, you know?

(0:40:51) speaker_1: And, and so what ended up happening was my translator, uh, would basically interpret my baby Korean into adult Korean.

(0:40:58) speaker_5: (laughs)

(0:40:59) speaker_1: We just thought that was so funny. We thought that, um… My…

(0:41:02) speaker_1: First of all, my birth mom had really no idea that I spoke, uh, the level of Korean that I did, especially my listening.

(0:41:08) speaker_1: It, uh, you know, it was pretty good.

(0:41:11) speaker_1: Um, but, uh, uh, I still, um, am so glad there was an interpreter there that first, uh, moment, and I’m also (laughs) glad that we had…

(0:41:21) speaker_1: Uh, that was actually the last time that we’ve had an interpreter. Um, so after that meeting, we, we had dinner.

(0:41:28) speaker_1: Um, you know, uh, I remember a distinct moment where, um, you know, up until this taxi ride basically to this restaurant in, in Daejeon, um, you know, neither of us cried.

(0:41:41) speaker_1: And then all of a sudden, it just, (laughs) it came out at once for both of us in the back of a taxi of all places.

(0:41:47) speaker_5: Oh.

(0:41:48) speaker_1: And, and we just, uh, kinda silently, you know, wept together.

(0:41:53) speaker_1: Um, she held my hand, um, about as tight as someone who’s afraid of flying in planes that’s on a plane with you. It was that tight.

(0:42:04) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, you know, to be honest, I don’t really remember what we talked about during that dinner. And I actually write that in my memoir manuscript.

(0:42:13) speaker_1: I’m like, “I don’t really exactly remember.” (laughs) It was such a blur. Um, but what I do remember is, um, getting the confirmation….

(0:42:21) speaker_1: uh, from each other that we wanted to continue to meet. Um, she lived in Daegu.

(0:42:27) speaker_1: My uncle, uh, lives in Jinju, which is in the southern coast of Korea, uh, where I was born.

(0:42:33) speaker_1: And, uh, we proceeded to meet, um, probably on an every other month basis, um, throughout, uh, 2010 and into 2011.

(0:42:43) speaker_1: And at that time, I, I literally thought I was going to be living in Korea forever.

(0:42:47) speaker_1: And so I, I was sort of just assuming to myself that this was gonna be a routine for decades. Um, and it, it turned out differently.

(0:42:55) speaker_1: I moved, uh, back to the States in 2011.

(0:42:58) speaker_1: Um, but I would say, for me, you know, everything that I had heard about reunion sort of came true and sort of didn’t.

(0:43:06) speaker_1: You know, it was, it was emotional, but there wasn’t a whole lot of tears. It was, um, powerful, but also very normal. It felt oddly normal.

(0:43:19) speaker_1: Um, and it, it’s so hard to explain, and I think the, the best analogy that I can give is kind of like meeting your great aunt, you know, maybe for, um, you know, your, your annual holiday gathering, uh, at someone’s house and, you know, you know your great aunt, you know, you know of her.

(0:43:38) speaker_1: Uh, you probably met her a few times, remember, you know, the perfume or the smell of that perfume when she, you know, (laughs) completely enveloped you in her arms and gave you, you know, a candy cane or something (laughs) for Christmas.

(0:43:52) speaker_1: And, um, but that’s about it, and it just, it felt like that.

(0:43:56) speaker_1: It felt familiar, um, but it also felt, um, like there was a lot of spaces between us, both physically and emotionally, that, um, yeah, she was a total stranger.

(0:44:07) speaker_1: And we looked exactly alike. I think that was the main thing that I was surprised by, that everyone was. Uh, we looked exactly like, you know…

(0:44:15) speaker_1: I, we, we had no need for a DNA test.

(0:44:17) speaker_1: I, I talked with a lot of adoptees before on what that process was, how kind of cold that can feel to both parties, and it, (laughs) that was a relief, you know, the, within about three seconds-

(0:44:29) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:44:29) speaker_1: … I was like, “We’re, we’re not gonna need that.” (laughs)

(0:44:31) speaker_2: You know, I, I’m not in Reunion, um-

(0:44:36) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:44:36) speaker_2: … and, but I do hear, you know, when people talk about, um, the first meeting, um, that there’s this intense handholding, that the- (laughs)

(0:44:50) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:44:50) speaker_2: … birth, usually the birth mother just won’t let go of the adoptee’s hand, and-

(0:44:58) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:44:58) speaker_2: … um, and you mentioned it again as one of those details.

(0:45:03) speaker_2: I wonder, do you remember like how it felt and, it, it’s almost like, I can imagine that, you know, you’ve, you’ve, um, you’ve been able to, um, you know, with all these, these hurdles of language and time, and the, the fog of relinquishment and, um, identities, and you were able to bridge all of those barriers to meet again, and that how, you know, how fragile-

(0:45:39) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:45:40) speaker_2: … um, it can be to let go of each other.

(0:45:43) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. I, uh, I distinctly remember, um, the shape of my mother’s hand in mine.

(0:45:51) speaker_1: Uh, I remember, uh, how sweaty my hand was, (laughs) and then beyond just the first meeting, I mean, she held my hand all the time.

(0:46:02) speaker_1: Like it, there wasn’t a question.

(0:46:04) speaker_1: And so, uh, if I’m being perfectly honest, it was also kind of embarrassing because, um, yeah, I mean, it’s a little more common, um, in Korea for, for parents to hold their hands in a, at least in, uh, you know, uh, additional contexts than, than in America.

(0:46:21) speaker_1: But it, I was long past the age where that would’ve been normal, and so-

(0:46:24) speaker_2: Oh.

(0:46:24) speaker_1: … I, I, I remember walking through downtown Daegu just, um, holding my mom’s hand, and yeah, people stared at us.

(0:46:32) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, you know, we, we got a loo- a lot of looks.

(0:46:35) speaker_1: It kind of felt like I was going on a date with my own mother and, and because we looked so alike, it was obvious to everyone that, you know, (laughs) I was probably her son.

(0:46:44) speaker_1: And so, um, you know, uh, I would say it wasn’t something that I wanted to do, if I’m being perfectly honest. Uh-

(0:46:54) speaker_2: Was it uncomfortable?

(0:46:56) speaker_1: I think it was just because at that time, um, the, the main thing I wanted to do whenever I walked out my door, uh, in everyday life in Korea was to blend in.

(0:47:07) speaker_1:

(0:47:08) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:47:08) speaker_1: And here was yet another reason. First it was, you know, any time I opened my mouth, (laughs) I obviously don’t blend in.

(0:47:15) speaker_1: But now that I look back, I mean, it was so obvious, the way I dressed, the way I walked, um, you know, uh, uh, certainly was not, uh-

(0:47:24) speaker_2: Body, body language, right?

(0:47:26) speaker_1: … very, very… body language, my gait, my, um, just my presence, um. Uh, it certainly looks like a foreigner’s presence.

(0:47:34) speaker_1: Uh, it gives you that foreigner vibe.

(0:47:37) speaker_1: And, um, and at the same time, uh, that was sort of my, I felt like my gift to my mother, uh, and, and I don’t say that to try to, you know, uh, inflate my own sense of importance or, uh, you know, uh, it wasn’t this purely altruistic thing.

(0:47:54) speaker_1: It was also kind of just pragmatic, like, “Okay, she deserves this. This is kind of weird for me, but you know what? Like here’s…

(0:48:01) speaker_1: this is something I’m willing to, to, to, to do.

(0:48:04) speaker_1: ” Um, something I was not willing to do (laughs), um, took the form of, uh, being in the same bed with her.

(0:48:12) speaker_1: So we had, uh, arranged most of our meetings to be essentially on the fly.

(0:48:17) speaker_1: We’d spend the day together and find a cheap motel to sleep in at night-Um, in Korea, there’s these things called love motels.

(0:48:25) speaker_6: Also sounds like first dating. (laughs) No, I’m just kidding.

(0:48:27) speaker_1: Oh, it, it ab-

(0:48:28) speaker_6: (laughs)

(0:48:28) speaker_1: No, it’s not even, it’s not even like… It’s seriously… It felt so much like dating. It was unreal. It was-

(0:48:36) speaker_6: Mm-hmm.

(0:48:37) speaker_1: Uh, I think still to this day, um, something that, uh, you know, anyone who, uh, I share my adoption story with, or my, my experience of being with my birth mother, um, uh, y- you can’t help but see those parallels (laughs).

(0:48:53) speaker_1: I do.

(0:48:53) speaker_6: (laughs)

(0:48:54) speaker_1: Um, and, and, and, you know, uh, I think for me, uh, the main thing that I’d heard, uh, prior to my own reunion was, uh, uh, a panel of adoptees, uh, living in Korea that, uh, shared about their own post-reun experiences, which I, looking back, again, I was so privileged to attend that conversation.

(0:49:15) speaker_1: They’re so rare. Uh, and they were especially rare in 2010 to have a panel like that-

(0:49:20) speaker_6: Mm-hmm.

(0:49:20) speaker_1: … and access to it. And I remember, um, an adoptee shared how his birth mother, um, really wanted him to share a bed with her.

(0:49:28) speaker_1: I mean, just, you know, a lot of adoptees, uh, when they meet their birth mothers especially, are in some ways infantilized all over again, you know.

(0:49:37) speaker_1: Their, their, their mothers have, um-

(0:49:40) speaker_6: The, you become the baby again, yeah.

(0:49:41) speaker_1: They become the baby, become the 10 month old, um, that they last saw. And, and he knew that. He was aware of it.

(0:49:48) speaker_1: He also just was like drawing a line, “Sorry.

(0:49:50) speaker_1: ” Um, and, and the explanation he gave is, “It’s just for Americans, uh, or at least for me as an American, it’s just strange.

(0:49:59) speaker_1: I, I’m sorry, but I can’t do it.” So her, hi- his, his birth mom understood for a while, clearly heartbroken.

(0:50:05) speaker_1: Um, but she just prodded, and prodded, and prodded.

(0:50:07) speaker_1: And so eventually, they reached a compromise, or his form of compromise was to sleep on the floor between the wall and the bed (laughs), so at least they were in the same room.

(0:50:15) speaker_1:

(0:50:15) speaker_6: (laughs)

(0:50:16) speaker_1: Then she coaxed him into the bed. Um, and you know, it was basically like-

(0:50:21) speaker_6: Huh.

(0:50:21) speaker_1: … body heat to body heat. And he was like, “I can’t do this.” Um, and he eventually just went out, back out to the couch.

(0:50:28) speaker_1: Uh, and I remember him sharing, uh, that whenever a friend of his birth mother’s came over to visit her, whe- whenever she hosted company, she would say, “This is my own son, who I love very much, and who refuses to share a bed with me.

(0:50:40) speaker_1: ” And all of her friends were just like, “Oh- oh my gosh, how could you not? You gotta work on that.

(0:50:46) speaker_1: ” And so I had that, uh, story in my head, uh, as I began to make plans with my birth mother for the, the first few times. They all involved cheap motels.

(0:50:54) speaker_1:

(0:50:54) speaker_6: (laughs)

(0:50:55) speaker_1: And none of those cheap motel rooms have two beds. (laughs) So I-

(0:50:58) speaker_6: Oh.

(0:50:59) speaker_1: … I literally drafted a, a monologue. Uh, an entire formal sentence by sentence script in Korean. Um, I had it edited by my Korean language tutor.

(0:51:10) speaker_1: I had my co-teachers look at it. I had friends look at it. I rehearsed it on the bus. I had it memorized (laughs).

(0:51:16) speaker_1: Um, this was, uh, a few months before smartphones came out, which makes me feel so old. Uh-

(0:51:23) speaker_6: (laughs)

(0:51:23) speaker_1: … and so, you know, um, I, I just had a print out. And, um, I had that folded in- in- into fourths and, and I had it in my pocket.

(0:51:32) speaker_1: And I remember my, my mom and I were holding hands. Uh, the sun was setting. We were headed into the, the love motel, literally in sight around the corner.

(0:51:40) speaker_1:

(0:51:40) speaker_6: (laughs)

(0:51:41) speaker_1: And, you know, it’s kind of like when you ask someone out to prom, or, you know, um, when you have to tell your parents something that you don’t want…

(0:51:50) speaker_1: Or just, you know, any- anything like that. It felt like, okay, I, you know, do it. Th- this, this is it. Like, it’s now or never. You gotta do it.

(0:51:57) speaker_1: And, and you know-

(0:51:58) speaker_6: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:59) speaker_1: … I waited until the moment we were gonna cross the street, and I was like, “Okay, you gotta do it.

(0:52:03) speaker_1: ” So, I, I s- you know, I stuck my hand in my pocket and, and right as I was doing that and taking a breath, like I literally remember, I was inhaling a breath when my mom in that very moment gripped my hand even tighter and started to cry.

(0:52:18) speaker_1: And, um, she said, “I’ve been waiting 20 years for this moment.” And I was like, “This, this moment for, for what?

(0:52:26) speaker_1: Meaning, wha- what moment are we talking about?” And she looked me in the eyes, just these teary eyes, and was like, “To sleep in the same bed with you.

(0:52:36) speaker_1: ” (laughs) And, and so I-

(0:52:38) speaker_6: Mm-hmm.

(0:52:38) speaker_1: … I put the, I put the, the script back, and um, you know, kind of in my mind, just tore it to shreds. I was like, “Well, there goes that plan.

(0:52:46) speaker_1: What are we gonna do now?” And so, um, we (laughs) we, uh, we, we ended up in bed together at, at the end of the night.

(0:52:55) speaker_1: Um, and I, I just remember distinctly, I mean, it was summer. It was warm. Uh, the AC wasn’t working that well. It was like a, you know, window unit.

(0:53:03) speaker_1: And she just, um, you know, she, she rolled over, um, essentially (laughs) and wrapped her arms around me, and held me close, and was just, um, the only thing she could really say was, you know, “My son, my son.

(0:53:17) speaker_1: ” And, um, and you know, I mean, I, uh, you know, it, it wasn’t that I didn’t understand. It was just like, “Okay, this is so surreal this is happening.

(0:53:27) speaker_1: ” So eventually, I, I was just like, “You know, it’s, it’s kind of hot. You know, the, the AC isn’t working well.

(0:53:33) speaker_1: I, I think I’m just feeling a little hot.” She was like, “Oh, of course. I’m so sorry.” Like, yeah.

(0:53:38) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, you know, and, and she kind of rolled off so to speak (laughs), um, and, and we were able to, to fall asleep that way.

(0:53:47) speaker_1: But, um, you know, uh, in addition to memoir, I’m also dabbling into poetry, Kayomi, and, um, I’m very, uh, very proud, and, and still, um, kind of in disbelief that it went…

(0:54:00) speaker_1: My first poem will be published soon. Um, and that poem is, is actually called Mom’s Touch. Um, it used to be called-

(0:54:08) speaker_6: Oh. And there’s a restaurant in Korea with Mom’s Touch.

(0:54:10) speaker_1: There’s a rest- there’s a fast food restaurant, kind of like just this, you know, McDonald’s type thing called Mom’s Touch. Uh, it’s a chain.

(0:54:17) speaker_1: And I don’t know, I just thought that was kind of funny. So I, I’ve, uh, named it Mom’s Touch, uh, titled it Mom’s Touch, and, um……

(0:54:24) speaker_1: it will be, uh, published in The Blue Earth Review, um, which is a, uh, uh, literary journal out of the University of Minnesota Mankato, um, uh, in, in about a month.

(0:54:35) speaker_1: And, and that poem, um, uh, basically just describes what it was like to, um, to feel my mother’s sweat, to, (laughs) to feel her body heat radiating, um, uh, in a way that obviously, (laughs) uh, didn’t carry a hint of, of eroticism, but was, was very much, um, you know, one of the most intimate experiences I’ve ever had.

(0:54:59) speaker_1: And, uh, to this day, I still don’t really know what it means, (laughs) or what I think of it.

(0:55:04) speaker_7: (laughs)

(0:55:04) speaker_1: It just, it just happens. Stuff just, just happens, Kayomi. (laughs) So-

(0:55:09) speaker_7: (laughs) Well, I was gonna-

(0:55:10) speaker_1: Um-

(0:55:11) speaker_7: I mean, this might be a little personal, but is it like a spooning situation? Is that-

(0:55:15) speaker_1: No. This is, no, we’re good. Um, this was like, I was lying on my back and she was kind of just like on top of me.

(0:55:23) speaker_1: Like, it wasn’t like 100%, you know, on top, but it was very-

(0:55:27) speaker_7: Mm.

(0:55:27) speaker_1: … uh, you know, we’re doing a percentage here, like 70% to 80% on top of me. Um, and-

(0:55:33) speaker_7: Oh.

(0:55:33) speaker_1: … and, you know, her head to my chest, and she just, um, uh, what is the, the term?

(0:55:39) speaker_1: Um, you know, like kind of like, uh, uh, dry weeping, or, you know, she was, she was dry heaving, just very, just grieving.

(0:55:48) speaker_7: Mm.

(0:55:48) speaker_1: Uh, just utter… Uh, I think she’d held it in all day. Um, certainly I had too.

(0:55:55) speaker_1: Um, and I think for her, um, you know, if you put for a moment, uh, you know, if you turn the tables or, or view it from her perspective, um, one of the things that I learned theoretically when I, uh, met her in 2010 for the first time, I recorded, I did end up recording her in, in a conversation, uh, also in a love motel.

(0:56:17) speaker_1: And, uh, uh, for a long time, I had that recording. A friend even transcribed it.

(0:56:23) speaker_1: But I had missed a detail in there, which, uh, was that, uh, she had tried to take me back, um, just a few months after, um, I was relinquished.

(0:56:34) speaker_1: She, um, she was devastated. She saved up as much money as she could.

(0:56:39) speaker_1: Uh, she went back, uh, to, uh, what I call in my, my writing, the giving place, um, and, and she literally just asked, “Can I have my son back?

(0:56:49) speaker_1: ” And the, the response, uh, which I believe is, is not a legal, (laughs) uh, or legitimate response, but the response she received was that she would have to repay the entirety of the room and board expenses that had been incurred during my stay, um, and she, I don’t know, had the equivalent of a few hundred dollars saved, and they turned her away, um, due to lack of money.

(0:57:14) speaker_1: And that’s, um, that’s something I, I, I didn’t remember from that conversation, even though I had a recording.

(0:57:24) speaker_1: And so in 2020, no, it would be 2019, just before the pandemic, uh, my girlfriend, now wife, um, and I, uh, just six months into our relationship, (laughs) uh, we ended up going to, uh, Korea together.

(0:57:37) speaker_1: Her family, um, uh, she’s Korean, her family is there, and, uh, my wife ended up meeting my birth mom.

(0:57:45) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, being bilingual, I think she was able to, uh, linguistically kind of meet my birth mother in a different, uh, place.

(0:57:55) speaker_1: But also, um, I, I love my wife so much.

(0:57:58) speaker_1: Um, she, uh, you know, when I first met her, she was, um, essentially a social worker, uh, uh, uh Independent Living Skills provider, helping folks, um, around Minneapolis and St.

(0:58:10) speaker_1: Paul, um, you know, develop the, the skills they needed to just do basic tasks, like buy groceries.

(0:58:17) speaker_1: Um, so she worked in human services, and she, she listened to my mom for eight hours.

(0:58:22) speaker_1: Um, we started at a coffee shop, we went to have dinner, we went on walks, we…

(0:58:27) speaker_1: For an entire day and into the night, um, my birth mother spilled her story to my wife, uh, my future wife, in a way that, um, you know, is only possible not only to someone who can speak your language fluently, but also someone who understands, probably the only other person other than me, who she felt safe with to, to really disclose anything.

(0:58:50) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, so that’s when I learned, uh, not necessarily in that conversation, ’cause my brain was fried after about hour two.

(0:59:00) speaker_7: Mm-hmm.

(0:59:00) speaker_1: Uh, my Korean went out the window. (laughs)

(0:59:02) speaker_7: (laughs)

(0:59:03) speaker_1: That night, um, my wife and I, uh, there was a spare room in her grandma’s apartment that we were staying in, and we just unpacked, like, “Okay.

(0:59:12) speaker_1: ” Um, and I’m so, I’m so fortunate to, to have just such a generous (laughs) person in my life.

(0:59:18) speaker_1: She, she just went basically step by step through the entire conversation.

(0:59:23) speaker_1: Um, I, you know, asked what, you know, I verified what I remembered, she explained more, and in the process of that unpacking, uh, I realized that my birth mother had tried to take me back.

(0:59:36) speaker_1: And so, um, you know, this is what I mean by memory is a funny thing.

(0:59:40) speaker_1: You know, uh, sometimes you misremember, sometimes, uh, that misremembering is from, you know, just straight up language barriers.

(0:59:48) speaker_1: Sometimes it’s for reasons that are far more complicated than that. And then there’s also re-remembering.

(0:59:54) speaker_1: Um, and this was, I think was a moment of re-remembering for me. Um, and, uh, you know, to this day, it still, it still rattles me.

(1:00:04) speaker_1: Um, and so if you can imagine, uh, rewinding now to, to that night (laughs) in the, the motel room, um, I didn’t quite realize all of that.

(1:00:12) speaker_1: You know, I wasn’t registering… Of course, I’m not her, but what I, what I did understand, um, you know, didn’t need to be explained.

(1:00:21) speaker_8: I’m right here with you.

(1:00:48) speaker_0: Thank you so much for sharing, Nick. Part 2 of this interview will air in two weeks. Thanks also to Jacqulyn Wells for your glorious music.

(1:00:57) speaker_0: To learn more, go to jacquelynwellsmusic.com. That’s J-A-C-Q-U-E-L-Y-N-W-E-L-L-S music.com. Until next time, I’m Kaomi Lee.