Yukyeong Kim and her group of neighbors and friends in Korea self-describe themselves as “ordinary, Korean women.” But they’ve been quietly and determinedly helping adoptees search for their biological family since 2018. I sit down with Kim to find out more about how the group got started and how their bravery and willingness to make a simple phone call or challenge what they consider to be unfair and inhumane privacy laws to adopted people that has often had surprising results. 

Audio available on Friday, April 12, 2024.

Dr. JaeHee Chung-Sherman, DSW, LCSW, has centered her practice and research on decolonizing adoption and mental health for transracial and international adoptees. A transracial, transnational adoptee herself, Chung-Sherman, 47, has been among the first co-hort of TRIA therapists to do this work. She talks about narcissistic colonial adopt systems, and why she ultimately has decided to move on from private practice.

(0:00:09) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 15 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:23) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:32) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes our adoptive families, and society that only wants a feel good story.

(0:00:43) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. These are our stories.

(0:00:47) speaker_1: Really want to work with the individual and normalize an experience that they’ve had, that for the most part they’ve been gaslit.

(0:00:54) speaker_1: There must be something, you know, inherently wrong with the way that I’ve, uh, literally had to survive and adapt in the way that I think about the world.

(0:01:03) speaker_1:

(0:01:03) speaker_0: On this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. JaeHee Chung-Sherman. She holds a Doctor of Social Work and is a licensed social worker.

(0:01:14) speaker_0: Her practice and research for the past 14 years has been focused on transracial and international adoptees and collective colonial narcissism.

(0:01:24) speaker_0: As a transracial international adoptee herself, Dr.

(0:01:28) speaker_0: Chung-Sherman has been among the first wave of adoptee practitioners to speak up about decolonization of adoption practices and mental health.

(0:01:38) speaker_0: But before we start, I wanted to say a little about becoming a Patreon supporter.

(0:01:42) speaker_0: Patreon supporters can join for as little as a few dollars a month, and are helping to sustain the work of this podcast.

(0:01:49) speaker_0: All funds go directly to costs such as production help, software, music licenses, and more.

(0:01:55) speaker_0: Dozens of folks just like you, who have felt part of a community larger than themselves through these stories, they’ve decided the podcast is worth their support, and I hope you’ll join too if you’re able.

(0:02:08) speaker_0: You can go to patreon.com/adaptedpodcast. I want to thank recent supporters and long timers as well. Now, here’s JaeHee.

(0:02:27) speaker_1: Yeah. Well, thanks Kiyomi for having me on. My name is JaeHee Chung-Sherman. My pronouns are she, her, ʔiōtse, and I am 47.

(0:02:36) speaker_1: I’m a transracial international adopted person from South Korea, so one of many of the diaspora.

(0:02:43) speaker_1: And, um, I’ve lived here in the States since I was seven months old, and adopted by a white, uh, Anglo family in Minnesota.

(0:02:55) speaker_1: So, um, you know, the plethora of adoptions that came out of children’s home at the time in the late 70s.

(0:03:04) speaker_1: And then our family relocated to the South, to Texas when I was in the first, almost second grade.

(0:03:11) speaker_1: So I’ve pretty much grown up, um, in the South, though I have familiarity in the Midwest and, um, in the North culturally by, by way of my adoptive family.

(0:03:24) speaker_1: Um, but I find that home here right now is really embedded into, um, here in Texas. And so I’ve got two kids biologically and my partner.

(0:03:38) speaker_1: We’ve been together and married for over 20 years, and we live here in the Dallas, Texas area.

(0:03:45) speaker_1: And so I’ve been working in, uh, mental health, specifically in, um, uh, serving, uh, Black, indigenous, Latina, Asian, people of color holding, uh, multiple marginalized identities here in the Dallas, Texas area, and I also work in public health.

(0:04:05) speaker_1:

(0:04:05) speaker_0: Now, a- are you closing your practice or?

(0:04:09) speaker_1: I am. I am. So I’ve transitioned. I’m now, um, at a large tier one medical center university here in the Dallas area, and I’m one of their…

(0:04:22) speaker_1: I’m the director of a post-graduate clinical social work fellowship program.

(0:04:28) speaker_1: So that’s really kind of moved my, my life over into public health, serving a broader community.

(0:04:36) speaker_1: And I’ve had my private practice for, gosh, it’s been over 14 years now. And so it’s time. It was time to make that transition and shift.

(0:04:46) speaker_1: I finished my Doctor of Social Work from the University of Alabama, uh, last December, and, um, you know, I’ve…

(0:04:57) speaker_1: Throughout my, my career at least, or throughout my life, I think there’s always been these, these whispers to transition and keep moving and changing, though I will always have my foot in the door with our community.

(0:05:11) speaker_1: And so really wanting to open up spaces to teach more, um, and provide, provide not just mentorship, but also provide, um, you know, step, step aside as the next generation of TRIAs move and just compl- just really integrate a nuanced version and a nuanced space of our experience as TRIAs.

(0:05:42) speaker_1: Um, I’m big on that.

(0:05:44) speaker_1: And so being able to not only elevate their work, but also, um, take a step back and take a little breather, is, uh, the frontline work is really…

(0:05:56) speaker_1: It can take its toll.

(0:05:57) speaker_0: Oh, yeah, for sure. What’s a TRIA?

(0:06:01) speaker_1: Oh, I’m sorry. A transracial international adopted person.

(0:06:04) speaker_2: Okay. Okay.

(0:06:05) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:06:05) speaker_2: I, I guess-

(0:06:06) speaker_1: So-

(0:06:06) speaker_2: … I am one too, so… (laughs)

(0:06:08) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:06:09) speaker_2: Um, and was your practice primarily on transracial adoptees?

(0:06:13) speaker_1: It was. It really started in, um… It was structurally, it started in a response for adopt families, transracial adopt families, um, and minors.

(0:06:26) speaker_1: So, I would work with the family system, particularly with, uh, kids of color adopted by, uh, white folks.

(0:06:36) speaker_1: And, um, integrating, you know, gosh, research from attachment, from complex trauma, d- development, and slowly through time, I, it really began to, um, shift into teens and then young adults.

(0:06:53) speaker_1: And I see that, I, I watch that. I see that change and the transition with other colleagues. We, we talk about that, where we may start.

(0:07:02) speaker_1: Really, I think there’s this very genuine and authentic space of like, healing self that should not be for our clients.

(0:07:10) speaker_1: But because this is such a unique space clinically and in mental health, um, we, there were al- you know, there’s a cohort of, uh, transracial adopted people who were kind of carving out what this may look like.

(0:07:28) speaker_1: And so, even in its infancy, we can watch that development through working with children, then working with teens and families, and then working more with young adults and emergent youth.

(0:07:38) speaker_1: And then now, I primarily work with 18 and up, adults only. Because I’ll be honest, the work it, the work with the system itself was exhaustive.

(0:07:50) speaker_1: The work within a white family adopt system that really perpetuated, whether they were aware of that or not.

(0:07:58) speaker_1: We could talk about attachment, we could talk about complex trauma, but the pathology, um, and the narratives that continue to be basically, um, conflated with the child, with the child of color specifically’s behaviors and their response when they’re navigating these incredibly white and oppressive systems.

(0:08:25) speaker_1: And having a natural normative response to the world around them, along with the, the grief and loss that we as adoptees feel and have a right to have, um, authentic reactions to, um, was really hard over time to continue to try to share that out with white adopt parents in particular.

(0:08:49) speaker_1: Though I did work with several families who adopted by kinship, families of same race, families of, uh, transracial adoption, but may have adopted across racial lines, but they were, they also identified as Black, indigenous, Latina, Asian, people of color.

(0:09:06) speaker_1: But those dynamics were very different than working within white adopt families who adopted transracially. And quite frankly, it burned me out.

(0:09:17) speaker_1: And so, one of the reasons I moved predominantly into now, into young adulthood, emergent youth, through the lifespan, really wanna work with the individual and normalize an experience that they’ve had, that for the most part, they’ve been gaslit.

(0:09:33) speaker_1: There must be something, you know, inherently wrong with the way that I’ve, uh, literally had to survive and adapt in the way that I think about the world, deconstructing how colonialism has really shaped their experience.

(0:09:49) speaker_1: Um, because through at least our experiences, or at least for myself, I can’t speak for all, but there is this, um, theme of how imperialism, how colonialism has shaped all people of color.

(0:10:06) speaker_1: And then how it’s specific to transracial adopted peoples.

(0:10:11) speaker_1: And I speak very specific to transracial adopted peoples and those particularly holding multiple intersectional marginalized identities.

(0:10:21) speaker_1: So, TRAs who also identify within the LGBTQIA community, who also identify within neurodiversity and, um, you know, body size diversity and, um, those who identify, we are, as immigrants as well.

(0:10:39) speaker_1: And so, when I work with adults who are really beginning to find their voice, not just in, you know, that one layer of coming out of the fog that more predominantly white adoptees may in- tend to experience, but that is multilayered working with transracial adopted people.

(0:11:04) speaker_1: And so, I still, you know, I enjoy that. I enjoy that work. Um, but now, you know, shifting from my own practice, I’ll keep that open for consulting.

(0:11:17) speaker_1: Um, but working one-on-one, I wanna broaden this out so I can begin teaching and begin influencing, um, within not just our community, but you know, within a world of clinical work, like social work, um, professional counseling, LMFT work, um, psychology, with peers that are also people of color.

(0:11:45) speaker_1: But also, will interact with TRIAs and they may not even know it.

(0:11:51) speaker_1: And really learning how to decolonize our practice, decolonize the work, and I can, you know, move this into where I’m just working individually or broaden this out.

(0:12:05) speaker_1: So, your invite to be able to come here on the podcast and even talk about this or share this, um, it’s, it’s part of that.

(0:12:13) speaker_1: It’s part of that, that, um, journey, but it’s also-…

(0:12:18) speaker_1: you know, a space to be able, I hope, to validate and affirm the experiences that our community faces and then hopefully challenge those, um, who are working in mental health to fluidly be, um, flexible in the way that they approach our work with- their work within our community.

(0:12:44) speaker_1: Um, because for so long, it’s really been through a lens of white supremacy, of saviorism, of, uh, the idea that we know what’s best for you.

(0:12:56) speaker_1: And this can all- this can be, you know, trickled down into the way that, you know, adoptees in particular, but transracial adoptees have been historically diagnosed or misdiagnosed or over-diagnosed, over-medicated, under-medicated, h- um, even accessibility in terms of resourcing of mental health services and, um, and quality mental health services.

(0:13:26) speaker_1: Um, because there are so few of us doing this work, the hope is that there will be more who are able to do that and to elevate, um, practitioners of color, particularly those who identify as adoptees, um, because not only do they need support, but mentorship within our community, um, when they begin this process, because it- it was quite lonely, because many of us were just trying to figure out, “Well, what…

(0:13:53) speaker_1: ” You know, I can get this very Westernized, colonized white frame lens of how to approach therapeutic design, and, you know, God, I- I’ve made plenty of mistakes along the way and even harmed unintentionally, um, within our own community utilizing some of these prac- practices, um, related to, you know, this is the way that you approach your therapeutic work or design.

(0:14:24) speaker_1: This is the only way, which is very much this paternalistic, “I know what’s better for you,” patriarchal, um, white framework that says, you know, we all have to function this way.

(0:14:37) speaker_1: “This is what the- only what the research says.

(0:14:40) speaker_1: ” As in, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, and I’m not dogging that, but I am suggesting that, you know, there’s a unique perspective when, um, adoptees are learning about not just who they are, um, because that’s a broad question, because for the most part, we’ve been regrafted as adopted people, um, and particularly transracial adoptees, people of color to be regrafted to assimilate.

(0:15:11) speaker_1: That that is, “Is that part of me?” Yes. Um, but then what else is out there? And is it safe enough?

(0:15:19) speaker_1: Is it okay enough, acceptable enough to explore what that could even look like if my whole life or my narravit- narrative’s been, “Don’t consider that.

(0:15:30) speaker_1: Don’t look over there.” Um, and that may be then diagnosed as, “Oh, they must have attachment problems. They must have reactive attachment disorder.

(0:15:39) speaker_1: They must have oppositional defiance disorder.

(0:15:42) speaker_1: They must have, um, you know, X, Y, and Z in terms of developmental,” and that doesn’t mean the individuals can’t have that and, um, also, it- it’s not binary.

(0:15:57) speaker_1: What I mean is even if an individual may have been diagnosed with that, it isn’t always just because they’re adopted.

(0:16:04) speaker_1: Could it also be because they’re navigating a very, uh, discriminant, uh, socially discriminatory world?

(0:16:13) speaker_1: Are they, uh, readapting to racial oppression and trauma and gender bias, sexuality, um, bias and oppression?

(0:16:22) speaker_1: Um, and they’re alone because they already feel that way. Um, that’s not attachment.

(0:16:29) speaker_1: That’s more when we look at that, that’s acute stress that can build into trauma response for a situation and a life experience where they’re not getting affirmed, they’re not getting validated, and basically, you know, continues the narrative is keep going back to these communities, keep going back to your school, keep going back to this, say, predominantly white institution and try to find your place in here and continually adapt, adapt, adapt, coupled with their own history related to their loss and adoption that they may not have even, um, conceptualized yet.

(0:17:12) speaker_1: And so when it comes to mental health, the research and the work that I’ve started deconstructing, um, at least through my doctoral program and there is a paucity of information, meaning there’s a lack of, um, I- I began getting more curious about narcissistic adopt family systems that may be drawn in more specifically to transracial and international adoption, i.e.

(0:17:42) speaker_1: the saviorism, and how does that then play out in mental health? How is that impacting adopted people longitudinally?

(0:17:52) speaker_1: How is that impacting us community-wise and how mental health resources are being allocated, funding being allocated, um, how child placing agencies are functioning?

(0:18:04) speaker_1: How ultimately is child placement is a, not how, but child placement, particularly the removal of children of color from Black, indigenous, Latin,…

(0:18:20) speaker_1: Latinx, Asian, people of color, communities of color, um, the family systems. It’s been awash and aligned with white supremacy the entire time.

(0:18:33) speaker_0: Well, Jayhaye, let me, um, that was… Thank you for that. That’s, that’s a, that was a really great-

(0:18:38) speaker_1: It’s a lot. (laughs)

(0:18:38) speaker_0: … overview of what, of what you’ve been dealing with. Oh my gosh.

(0:18:45) speaker_0: Um, what I wanted to, you know, ask you about the narcissistic adopt family systems that you mentioned.

(0:18:54) speaker_0: You know, through my podcast and just being in the community, um, I do hear that it’s quite common for adoptees to talk about parents who, white parents who have this, uh, you know, that there’s, there’s aspects of narcissism.

(0:19:14) speaker_0: And can you talk more about what you’ve found?

(0:19:18) speaker_1: Yeah. So at least here’s, here’s what I started observing thematically, and there, there’s no, there’s not research.

(0:19:28) speaker_1: Um, after doing, um, significant, um, systemic analysis and reviews of the research prior to, um, the research related to these themes and observations that I was seeing anecdotally through the years of private practice, um, it wasn’t written.

(0:19:53) speaker_1: So it was, what I was learning more related to narcissistic patterning, characteristics and systems.

(0:20:00) speaker_1: I was actually going outside of, say, social work, um, but I was really l- you know, specifically learning about the research that maybe an individual pathology about what narcissism characteristics may look like in an individual, what that may look like by a parent, but not an adopt parent, and not an adopt parent of a child of color, um, sociologically.

(0:20:28) speaker_1: And then also, um, anthropology, um, where I found the dearth of information.

(0:20:34) speaker_1: The most information actually then went back into the historical context of colonialism, manifest destiny, um, these ideas that would sweep through, um, the imperialistic warmongering of the West into multiple communities, that really then, um, you know, overlapped with, uh, United…

(0:21:02) speaker_1: When the United Nations would talk about, um, the impacts of genocide and child removal and the impacts of what would happen when enslavers removed human beings from family systems.

(0:21:20) speaker_1: And Native Americans both here in the United States and Canada, indigenous families, um, with the forced child removals.

(0:21:30) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:30) speaker_1: And that’s where I got most of the context for communal narcis- narcissism.

(0:21:37) speaker_1: So I had to piece all this together, um, and really theoretically begin to argue, okay, the system itself is, is bathed in this narcissistic, um, exceptional viewpoint related to, um, predominantly Western, white, uh, patriarchal standards.

(0:22:03) speaker_1: How does this flow into not just placement? What am I watching?

(0:22:09) speaker_1: How is this aligning possibly with what I’m seeing being enacted in the therapy room from what adoptees have shared through the years, what families, what I’ve observed with family systems?

(0:22:22) speaker_1: Um, and, and even through the time when I was working in child placement. And so a couple things came into, like, more focus. So I created…

(0:22:37) speaker_1: There’s an acronym I created in terms of narcissism, and so it’s called VEED. V as in volatile.

(0:22:45) speaker_1: There’s a volatility, whether that’s on a communal level or whether that’s an individual level that I’m hearing from the individual, the person who’s been victimized by narcissism, that the other, the party holding power in narcissism truly is, when we break this down, there’s a power differential.

(0:23:05) speaker_1: Whether that’s between parent and child, whether that’s between, um, community or business partnership and relationships at, at, with employer and employee.

(0:23:16) speaker_1: Um, E as in VEED, as in entitled. I feel entitled. I feel entitled to, um, do what I need to do. I feel entitled.

(0:23:26) speaker_1: There’s an entitlement to eradicate another human being’s past history, to take a name, to redo the birth dates, to literally, um, erase parts of another human being’s identity.

(0:23:45) speaker_1: What is that about the entitlement that then’s going to show up that looks like and may look like, um, an entitlement to completely deny that the child’s pain could be related to…

(0:23:58) speaker_1: Or the adoptee’s pain, not just the child. I don’t want to infantilize our community. I get so tired of that.

(0:24:05) speaker_1: Um, the entitlement of suggesting that they know what is best for this child or adoptee, so we refuse to relocate.

(0:24:13) speaker_1: We refuse for us to be uncomfortable and discomfited in, um, the-…

(0:24:20) speaker_1: in that proximity of watching our child come back home every day, for instance, and share with us they’re getting bullied, racially bullied at school, and they’re the only ones.

(0:24:33) speaker_1: The sense of entitlement to say, “No, your name is this,” and we don’t say y- we don’t say your birth name. We don’t address the birth family.

(0:24:42) speaker_1: We don’t talk about the records and only if they ask. “I am entitled to control the narrative. I am entitled to know what is best for this child.

(0:24:55) speaker_1: ” Even with a practitioner, a practitioner with expertise and years of experience coming in and with lived experience, but also with clinical training sharing, “This is what is re-traumatizing your child.

(0:25:11) speaker_1: It is more than their attachment to you.

(0:25:13) speaker_1: It is a response in which you’re responding to them and denying parts of their identities and parts of the trauma and the acute stress that they’re feeling due to racialized oppression, gender oppression, whatever that’s going to look like, um, disability status, if there is learning challenges, whatever that looks like.

(0:25:35) speaker_1: I’m entitled to say I know what’s best, and I always have.

(0:25:40) speaker_1: ” And this started from early on, even in child welfare, the entitlement to go into communities and say, “We know what’s best for you.

(0:25:50) speaker_1: ” The other E is exploitive.

(0:25:52) speaker_1: So this exploitive idea that I will exploit the resources of what I can benefit from, whether it’s in this relationship or whether this is in community.

(0:26:03) speaker_1: So the exploitive piece that I hear thematically from adoptees and we begin to kind of deconstruct this, this is more adults, the exploitation of their own narrative.

(0:26:13) speaker_1: “So my parents over-blogged. They would go to conferences and my adopt- my adopter would start sharing out all my personal information without my consent.

(0:26:23) speaker_1: ” The exploitation of privacy, the exploitation of their body.

(0:26:28) speaker_1: “I would exploit and I would dress up in my child’s birth culture in the hanbok and I would go to the events where it would center more predominantly the white adopt mom.

(0:26:40) speaker_1: ” And this exploitive piece and then the denial piece.

(0:26:45) speaker_1: “Well, that’s not what I meant,” but it’s created the impact for the adoptee that will then move away from trusting and feeling a sense of security, because now the visage of who I am, of who you wanted to adopt is being exploited, but not recognized, honored, or understood.

(0:27:07) speaker_1: Or I will, um, exploit in terms of the funding and the marketing for raising funds.

(0:27:16) speaker_1: And so I’ve heard every argument from adopt families, but the impact for adoptees is when I see that bottom line, and adoption and birth, having a child by birth is not the same thing.

(0:27:31) speaker_1: So the exploitation related even to the financial where adoptees then begin to feel, “I am transactional.

(0:27:39) speaker_1: ” The exploitation to share that this is what my life was worth or my birth family is worth. And so of course that’s going to create depression, anxiety.

(0:27:49) speaker_1: And when adoptees begin to withdraw and really begin processing through this in their way, whatever that process and journey is gonna look like, the exploitation as well is also then kind of gas lit and said, “Oh, it’s definitely their adoption and their attachment issues.

(0:28:09) speaker_1: ” And this is interesting because I’ll get predominantly white adopt parents with adult adoptees who are in…

(0:28:16) speaker_1: Who are 18 plus, sometimes in their 30s, sometimes in their 40s contacting me as a clinician and say… And letting me know what’s wrong with their child.

(0:28:28) speaker_1: It’s gotta be their adoption history.

(0:28:31) speaker_1: The biggest red flag for me is that, okay, the exploitation of overriding their own autonomy, the exploitation of the autonomy even as adoptees within our bodies and our families of color was already exploited.

(0:28:45) speaker_1: But then the entitlement to say, “No, it’s got to be something wrong with them,” they usually will not…

(0:28:52) speaker_1: When I ask adopt parents before when I was working with them, my request is that you seek your own therapy. Many times they would not.

(0:29:01) speaker_1: The ones who really did were the ones who were really there committed to the process and working through that with their, um, adult child or child, and I’m gonna say that was few and far between.

(0:29:13) speaker_1:

(0:29:13) speaker_0: You mean, uh, let me just jump in here.

(0:29:17) speaker_0: You mean parents would contact you, um, saying their adult adopted child needs therapy, but then would not be open to therapy themselves?

(0:29:27) speaker_1: Absolutely. That was a red flag that this is a narcissistic system.

(0:29:32) speaker_1: The exploitation to override confidentiality and speak for their child versus support, and their child not being a chi- They’re not a minor, they’re adults.

(0:29:42) speaker_1: So the infantilization of adoptees, in particular, this entitlement, “I know what’s best, um, and I’ll speak for you.” It’s gotta be, “Oh, it’s too bad.

(0:29:55) speaker_1: It’s really your adoption,” which is, it’s also then when we tie that back also to racial oppression, the infantilization of people of color.

(0:30:04) speaker_1: So this is double, dually impactful when it’s coming from the adopt parent of transracial adopted people and it’s coming within the community.

(0:30:14) speaker_1: And then the final of the acronym is D as in, uh, dominating. So there’s this dominating presence.And this can be overt.

(0:30:24) speaker_1: When we think of narcissism, we think of more overt or malignant narcissism, where you have somebody who’s quite vocal and aggressive.

(0:30:34) speaker_1: And I think that’s a stereotypical idea of what narcissism may look like. Uh, we have politicians that may really align with that.

(0:30:43) speaker_1: But what I find more, um, more significant is actually the covert narcissism.

(0:30:50) speaker_1: So narcissism lives on a spectrum, and we all have this part of us because we’re human. Adoptees, parents, all of us, we have this.

(0:31:01) speaker_1: It’s the awareness of when that comes out when we’re really feeling vulnerable or really feeling, um, whether that’s attacked, whether we’re feeling, um, uh, inco- we’re, we’re questioned in our competence, whate- whatever that’s going to look like.

(0:31:16) speaker_1: The D part for the domination is that I will silence. So if you speak out, there is, there’s going to be what I call is this narcistic kickback or rage.

(0:31:29) speaker_1: And I see this particularly with, um, adoptees, but particularly transracial adoptees with white parents or a parent that holds the pocketbook.

(0:31:43) speaker_1: So, um, for emergent youth who are still in university and they’re really at this stage from 18 to 25, I don’t know about you, that was a hard time-

(0:31:55) speaker_3: Yeah.

(0:31:56) speaker_1: … (laughs) for myself. Very confusing. Um, you’re, you’re learning your interdependence.

(0:32:01) speaker_1: You’re learning what this means to be a person in the world, but more than that, a person of color outside of the confines of a white community or family, for the most part.

(0:32:11) speaker_1: Not everybody.

(0:32:12) speaker_1: Um, but then also integrating into a community where you’re trying to figure out so much about who you are and about how adoption, race, and all the intersections ca- are, um, you know, defining parts of yourself.

(0:32:31) speaker_1: This is where I find also the, the greatest fear.

(0:32:35) speaker_1: So a family system, particularly parents of more narcicisstic systems, um, fear this time, and they sense that the child of what they were needing and, you know, what was that motivation to adopt?

(0:32:50) speaker_1: Was that to fill a need? Was that to fill a loss? Was that to fill a void?

(0:32:55) speaker_1: And so this child now is in replacement of a need versus a human, an autonomous being.

(0:33:01) speaker_1: This can happen in any family system, but I think, uh, what I find is more predominant in transracial adopt families is not only the racialized difference of the adoptee, but then also it is, um, a very…

(0:33:18) speaker_1: It’s a public observation and then a private one that says, “If you go and you, you search, if you question, if you become curious, I can cut off funding.

(0:33:31) speaker_1: ” And the m- the times that I’ve experienced that to try to manage and work through with, um, adoptees, I will share with, um, emergent adoptees, “Listen, it’s not if, it’s when.

(0:33:45) speaker_1: There will come a time in our work that what you’re beginning to deconstruct is going to be very threatening to your family system.

(0:33:58) speaker_1: And so what do you have alternatively to help you financially, to help you, um, uh, physically, to help you medically?

(0:34:09) speaker_1: ” Um, because I have seen adopt parents respond in threat and anger, and this is that volatility. “I will dominate what you need to do.

(0:34:21) speaker_1: I will dominate when you go out of line.” And that fear psychologically is more than it’s made up in your mind.

(0:34:30) speaker_1: I really affirm with transracial adopted folks, in particular, internationally adopted folks, uh, in, in particular is that, that fear of being psychologically abandoned has probably always been there.

(0:34:45) speaker_1: And the fear is, “If I do this, I kinda always knew they had the capability,” they being the adopters, had that capability.

(0:34:54) speaker_1: And it’s frightening to lose and be re-abandoned again, particularly in emergent youth.

(0:35:01) speaker_1: And the number of times that I’ve shared this with other adoptee clinicians, um, and working within these systems is it’s pretty staggering.

(0:35:15) speaker_1: And, and I’ll be honest, Kim, with this, one of the reasons I had to back out, it was, it was, it was violent what was happening to the adoptees.

(0:35:26) speaker_1: And many times, if they would share this out with anybody else, I mean, they’ve…

(0:35:31) speaker_1: I’ve had adoptees tell me they’ve gone to usually three to four different therapists throughout their life because there was, quote-unquote, “Something wrong with them.

(0:35:39) speaker_1: ” And there wasn’t. It was a natural response. Depression, anxiety makes sense to me.

(0:35:45) speaker_1: And also, there could be pre-genetic factors that we don’t know because there’s a loss of accurate information as an adopted person socially and medically.

(0:35:55) speaker_1: So yes, so if bipolar disorder does exist in your family or ADHD exist in your birth family, that’s not because of your adoption or because there’s something of you when you’re really feeling, of course, isolated when you’re the only one in your family with no mirrors whatsoever.

(0:36:14) speaker_1: Let’s learn, let’s, you know, manage that. Um, but many times, what I, I’ve heard through the years, it’s those characteristics that were othered-…

(0:36:25) speaker_1: were weaponized against transracial adoptees.

(0:36:28) speaker_1: “I’ve got to be perfect,” which really aligns with this white supremist ideal and this perfectionism of like, “I’ve got to be perfect in order to survive.

(0:36:40) speaker_1: I’ve got to be productive in order to be enough.” Um, and I see this predominantly within, um, TR- T…

(0:36:49) speaker_1: transracial adoption, um, that, “If I don’t do this, I may not be worthy enough to stay.

(0:36:56) speaker_1: Um, that I’ve been serving a purpose within my family system rather than learning who I am, just to be who I am. I need to be on.

(0:37:07) speaker_1: ” And so, so much of that work is deconstructing the volatility, entitlement, exploitation, and the domination, this domineering factor of going, “What would that look like?

(0:37:18) speaker_1: What would that be like for you?

(0:37:21) speaker_1: ” W- to recognize when it’s happening, setting boundaries, and then also, you know, holding this, to grieve multiple layers of this, and also working with some systems, ’cause I, I have worked with, um, transracial adoptees and their families.

(0:37:41) speaker_1: Their families, very few can do this, but some of their parents can actually be accountable for their part in, in what has happened to them.

(0:37:50) speaker_4: What, what does that look like when you… white aparent- white parents become accountable?

(0:37:55) speaker_1: For some, it, it could be a, a slow, incremental apology. Sure, ultimately, you align with the system that removed your child from their birth family.

(0:38:09) speaker_1: Regardless of the rationale that whatever you were shared, uh, what was shared to you by the child placing agency and the themes at that time, at the end of the day, you aligned and were part of this broader system.

(0:38:27) speaker_1: And there was also some… There was also harm that was done as well.

(0:38:32) speaker_1: But that needs to be separate from the adopted person, because that, that sounds like an excuse, ’cause it is, um, when that’s the impact when the adoptee hears that.

(0:38:43) speaker_1: So working with families to go, “If you’re truly wanting repair…” And repair doesn’t mean automatic, uh, relational access.

(0:38:55) speaker_1: But if repair means, “I am part of that system. I recognize how my whiteness has erased parts of you. I recognize the harm that it’s done.

(0:39:05) speaker_1: ” I’ve had maybe two families who could do it in my history.

(0:39:10) speaker_4: And that’s over-

(0:39:12) speaker_1: So… That’s been-

(0:39:13) speaker_4: How many that you… (laughs) Out of a-

(0:39:17) speaker_1: (laughs) I don’t know.

(0:39:17) speaker_4: … pool.

(0:39:18) speaker_1: I’ve been in this realm for about 25 years.

(0:39:23) speaker_4: So it’s very rare. It’s very rare.

(0:39:26) speaker_1: Very rare.

(0:39:27) speaker_1: And I think, you know, I can, I can share out, it is not our responsibility as adoptees, particularly, um, all people of color, to teach their parents about white supremacy.

(0:39:39) speaker_1: And as a person of colo- as a clinician of color, there’s so few of us to begin with, but also a clinician, transracial adopted person of color sharing this out with these white systems, it’s exhausting, um, because…

(0:39:55) speaker_1: But that’s a minutiae of what is happening on a daily with their, their child, and then you add on any other, um, complexity, ’cause many of the, the patients, or the clients I have seen through the years, you know, they’ve, they’ve held…

(0:40:14) speaker_1: They were, um, uh, basically kicked, quote-unquote, “kicked out” of their adopt family when they came out, when they transitioned, um, when they didn’t fit that, that role.

(0:40:30) speaker_1: So I fully recognize that many of the, the clients I’ve seen through the years, it may be, um, you know, a sub-community, but I don’t find that, because when I go, and I’m in community with our, um, with others, with other transracial adoptees, the storylines are familiar.

(0:40:53) speaker_1: They rhyme.

(0:40:55) speaker_1: And the systems that may bring, be inviting for already narcissistic families and narcissistic people is perpetuated in that family system, and then it can be perpetuated in the cli- counseling room, and so so often I’m working from a framework, not automatically, “Oh, just because you’re adopted, they must be narcissistic.

(0:41:19) speaker_1: ” But we’re kind- we’re, like, assessing with permission and what’s comfortable for each client to go, “Okay, what is, what does that look like?

(0:41:29) speaker_1: What has that looked like for you?

(0:41:31) speaker_1: When you talked about your race, when you talked about adoption, when you talked about your sexuality, what, what was the response? What did you do?

(0:41:40) speaker_1: Who comforted you? Who was there for you?

(0:41:43) speaker_1: ” Um, and that’s go- we begin kind of actually working backwards to come back to the present, going back in history to come forward, ’cause many were taught not to question their adopt family, and that’s a saviorism.

(0:41:58) speaker_1: Many were taught not to even acknowledge, so there’s no words for it, that adoption was even a thing.

(0:42:06) speaker_1: They knew it, but they’ve learned to psychologically disconnect because that’s survival. But that’s also narcissism, which is colonialism. Erase it.

(0:42:20) speaker_1: Ensure that they are presentable, e- es- ensure that they are……

(0:42:26) speaker_1: um, you know, productive enough and deem them appropriate for whatever this looks like in this family, but in this community, which is predominantly a White community.

(0:42:38) speaker_1: And so- (smacks lips) A lot of families, it’s very threatening to hear that.

(0:42:46) speaker_0: What are some of those familiar storylines that you hear?

(0:42:51) speaker_1: Yeah, I think the big- (sighs) A lot of the familiarity is once, uh, adoptees start to come out of the fog, the families back away, or that they begin to question, um, their motivation for seeking-

(0:43:07) speaker_0: (thumps table)

(0:43:07) speaker_1: … additional information, whether that’s their birth family reintegrating, as Dr.

(0:43:12) speaker_1: Baden had talked about, re-aculturating with, um, (smacks lips) their, their communities of color, um, of being able to really- Particularly with larger, um, not larger, but different life experiences.

(0:43:28) speaker_1: So say, if an adoptee, um, you know, has- Gives birth.

(0:43:34) speaker_1: So there is this loss, particularly if the adopt parent, particularly if the adopt mom, um, had not experienced pregnancy.

(0:43:46) speaker_1: The loss of relationship or the pulling back of, um, not being able to talk to them in the same way, or talk with a parent in the same way, because the adoptee is also…

(0:43:59) speaker_1: And I’m generalizing in a way, but the adoptee is also learning what white supremacy actually looks like.

(0:44:07) speaker_1: There may be times, and I, I share this with TRAs, like, you’re gonna get mad. It’s like a righteous anger that’s probably been there the whole time.

(0:44:17) speaker_1: And that trope that’s used against adoptees is don’t be the ang- “Don’t be that angry adoptee.”

(0:44:23) speaker_0: Right.

(0:44:23) speaker_1: Which is not only pathologizing, it’s embedded in white supremacy.

(0:44:29) speaker_1: It’s embedded in- Just historically, when we add that on to people of color, it’s a way of silencing and dominating.

(0:44:38) speaker_1: And I hear that so often from, um, adopters, like, “Don’t be that angry adoptee.” I hear that from communities.

(0:44:47) speaker_1: I hear that from institutions that really want adoptees to come and quote… And I was part of this.

(0:44:54) speaker_1: I aligned with this, and I did harm, um, ’cause I- Before really doing deeper dives and work, is, you know, I would go and I would speak on behalf of “adoption” and really drink the Kool-Aid.

(0:45:11) speaker_1: And then- Then when you wake up and you say something different, drop you like hotcakes, um, within these white patriarchal systems.

(0:45:21) speaker_1: And how that plays out in the family is, you know, um, “You can come to the home, but don’t talk about race.

(0:45:29) speaker_1: ” “You can come to the home, but, you know, um, we want you to come to a family reunion. And we know everybody voted for Trump, but whatever.

(0:45:37) speaker_1: ” (laughs) “You’re just gonna suck it up, ’cause we’re family.” Um, I really saw this get elevated.

(0:45:44) speaker_1: I’m seeing it again get elevated with, um, the elections, where- And, and really the trauma and the fear that’s playing, that’s real, that’s playing itself out, um, within communities of color and adoptees.

(0:45:59) speaker_1: That’s when I saw an uptick in referrals from adoptees of color who would watch family systems align with White nationalists, from church or their places of worship to, um, their place of employment.

(0:46:16) speaker_1: And/or being able to share out with their parents or siblings, cousins, whatev- Grandparents, whatever that looks like, experiences that are happening at school, in higher ed, if they choose higher ed, or at employment, places of employment, um, where meritocracy doesn’t exist for people of color.

(0:46:42) speaker_1: And so they’re realizing, “Oh, this was kind of- I was raised in this false narrative that if I just work enough, if I’m white enough, this will work.

(0:46:53) speaker_1: ” And parents who don’t understand why their child is pulling back, um, and may respond, like I shared, you know, withdrawing funds, um, withdrawing connection, um, and others who- I’ve, I’ve had other clients where they, they, um, disowned them.

(0:47:13) speaker_1:

(0:47:15) speaker_0: Um, JK, I wanted to, um…

(0:47:17) speaker_0: I mean, that really resonated with me and the, the angry adoptee trope being, uh, aligned with this, you know, “It’s a child acting out,” you know?

(0:47:29) speaker_0: “Don’t be that angry adoptee,” or, “You’re a child.” You know?

(0:47:35) speaker_0: Um, (smacks lips) what age would you say your clients kind of came to you when they recognized or wanted to start the work of decolonizing themselves?

(0:47:48) speaker_0:

(0:47:48) speaker_1: I honestly, I think, Kimi, it’s a different process for everyone.

(0:47:53) speaker_1: But what I tend to find is that, um, once they’ve really established their own sense of self, or, or whatever that looks like, or more of an interdependent sense of self in adulthood.

(0:48:06) speaker_1: So this could be in latter their 20s. So say, maybe they have, um, they’ve given birth.

(0:48:13) speaker_1: Maybe they partner, um, in a more a, a committed relationship or marriage, um, or maybe they have experienced a death of an adopt parent or parents or family system.

(0:48:26) speaker_1: Or that, um, you know-It, it sometimes I’ll ha- I’ll have adoptees who come and they’re in their 30s or late 40s, some in their 60s.

(0:48:40) speaker_1: Um, typically the younger emergent adulthood, they’re recognizing… And I don’t want to generalize everyone, so it’s such a individual thing, right?

(0:48:51) speaker_1: But, um, they, they recognize I am… I’m dependent on my parents-

(0:48:58) speaker_0: (laughs).

(0:48:58) speaker_1: … or my parent, whatever that looks like, my caregiver. So I can’t do a lot of the hard work.

(0:49:04) speaker_1: And I will say this, when I’m working with emergent, um, adults, I, I now… I share a disclaimer and talk through this when I’m training other, uh, clinicians.

(0:49:17) speaker_1: The disclaimer is, um, you know, we can clean the, the countertops or we can do a deep dive, but these are some of the pros and cons to that.

(0:49:26) speaker_1: And we won’t know until we get there.

(0:49:29) speaker_1: Um, but sometimes with everything else that’s going on in their life, whether that is school, university, uh, place of employment, or trying to differentiate from their family system, or they’re really working on, um, mental health in terms of depression, anxiety, we’re not doing deep dives into adoption or identity work.

(0:49:50) speaker_1: We’re trying to stabilize, um, for safety ultimately. And so not everybody comes or has come to me because of adoption.

(0:50:00) speaker_1: I think it, it’s secondary to what’s been primary.

(0:50:04) speaker_1: Um, usually adoptees will come and say, people have said they’re, “I have commitment, um, challenges,” or that, “I’ve been, I’ve been so anxious and I can’t put my finger on it.

(0:50:16) speaker_1: I’ve been really depressed,” or, “I’ve struggled with depression my whole life.

(0:50:22) speaker_1: ” Um, or there’s, you know, significant complex trauma that has happened within the family and a lot of secrecy.

(0:50:29) speaker_1: Particularly in more narcissistic families, I find that, um, addiction or substance use, alcohol use, um, the lack of mental health, um, interventions on behalf of the adults, the caregivers or parents, um, you know, family estrangement, these are all characteristics of more narcissistic systems that I found through thematically.

(0:50:52) speaker_1: And so, you know, it’s more than the adoptee that may have… You know, we don’t know if…

(0:51:00) speaker_1: Is there a predisposition or has this also been, um, uh, modeled and remodeled by an adopt family system that’s chaotic?

(0:51:09) speaker_1: And that, you know, whatever their motivation was to adopt a child outside of race and outside, say, internationally, um, they’ve not…

(0:51:20) speaker_1: the parents, the caregivers have not done their internal work.

(0:51:24) speaker_1: And so many times the adoptees will come and they’ll tell me, you know, “I’ve, I’ve got trauma, I’ve got chaos,” and they, they haven’t been able to put their finger on it.

(0:51:33) speaker_1: Um, but it’s showing up in, say, employment, “I’m about to lose my job,” or, um, “My child is really struggling with me.

(0:51:42) speaker_1: ” And so this is where we kind of do a slow burn clinically, um, because if I came out the gate with anything, and that’s the very first thing we start talking about, that’s gonna be scary.

(0:51:54) speaker_1: That’d be scary for me.

(0:51:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:58) speaker_1: Um, and so I think therapists need to recognize just because a person’s adopted doesn’t mean that’s what you start with.

(0:52:05) speaker_1: It, it is we’re human and we are, um, incredibly complex.

(0:52:09) speaker_1: And I always want to start where an adoptee is because so often our autonomy and our voice has been…

(0:52:17) speaker_1: It’s been taken away since infancy, sometimes before we’re born. Like your medical records or mine, they’ve been out there, social history.

(0:52:28) speaker_1: And so I think that’s so important working with adoptees, is consent and then a fluid discussion about what to expect because that…

(0:52:42) speaker_1: the unknown, of course, that’s incredibly impactful for any human being.

(0:52:46) speaker_1: No one likes, uh, not to know what’s coming next, but particularly for adopted people who’ve always had to adapt to how people are gonna respond and what’s gonna happen to them without their consent.

(0:52:58) speaker_1: And yeah. (laughs)

(0:53:02) speaker_0: (laughs) Um-

(0:53:03) speaker_1: Sorry. Go ahead. (laughs)

(0:53:04) speaker_0: I need, I need a… I need some coffee. Um… (laughs)

(0:53:07) speaker_1: (laughs).

(0:53:09) speaker_0: Um, decolonization, um, it can, it can be quite scary for a transracially adopted child, um, uh, I, I imagine. Does it… Is it, um…

(0:53:25) speaker_0: Does it usually always end in a rupture in the family system?

(0:53:30) speaker_1: No, it doesn’t. It, um, like I shared… I guess it… Let’s… Let me pull that back a little bit or define that.

(0:53:38) speaker_0: Hmm. Okay.

(0:53:39) speaker_1: Um, rupture, rupture can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

(0:53:43) speaker_0: Sure. Yeah.

(0:53:44) speaker_1: Um, but it can also, I think, through internal, individual, and then family hard work, or with a partnership, it, it can really bring them closer if people are willing to do some of those deeper dives in.

(0:54:01) speaker_1: It doesn’t happen very often, but it… What it may do is it may shift the relationship.

(0:54:09) speaker_1: So not every adopted person may define that as a rupture, but they may define it as a place of liberation for them. “I can be myself.

(0:54:18) speaker_1: I know what’s happening now.” And so a lo- sometimes a lot of the work is like, “Okay, so now you know what’s going on.

(0:54:25) speaker_1: The family system’s probably not gonna change. How do you want to navigate that? How are you gonna keep yourself just…”… salient in that.

(0:54:33) speaker_1: So if all you can do is an hour with your family, um, and, and that’s how you wanna balance it, awesome. ‘Cause so often, I think, it is that response.

(0:54:44) speaker_1: It’s like then you’re out, right? Like, very binary. Family for many adopted people is incredibly fluid.

(0:54:54) speaker_1: (laughs) It’s very different and defining for when adoptees or I speak with fosterees about how they define family.

(0:55:01) speaker_1: I’m like, you know, this old adage of it’s thicker than blood, hmm, it was already disrupted long before (laughs) I, uh, you know, I had words, or sometimes I had explicit memory of that.

(0:55:15) speaker_1: And so, how do you wanna define what family looks like for you now because it’s been defined for so long? And that may not be a rupture.

(0:55:23) speaker_1: That may just be an awakening for some.

(0:55:26) speaker_1: And, you know, how their family wants to choose to navigate that, a lot of the f- You know, we don’t have control over that in terms of how people wanna respond.

(0:55:39) speaker_1: Um…

(0:55:41) speaker_0: Right.

(0:55:42) speaker_1: And sometimes it, it does create…

(0:55:45) speaker_1: It creates tension, but I don’t think all relationships have to be, to be ruptured if the family can tolerate it, if the system can tolerate it.

(0:55:57) speaker_0: The family has to be strong enough.

(0:55:59) speaker_1: They’ve gotta be, they’ve gotta be… Yes, they’ve gotta be flexible enough and tolerable enough for that change.

(0:56:07) speaker_1: But if we’re working more with predominantly narcissistic systems, that’s, flexibility is not a characteristic you tend to find (laughs) in narcissistic systems.

(0:56:18) speaker_1: It tends to be rigid, my way or the highway. And this is… And I share with adoptees the rupture that’s happening isn’t necessarily…

(0:56:27) speaker_1: That’s not your fault, predominantly. What it is, it is a revelation of the things that have always been there. Now, what do you want to do with that?

(0:56:41) speaker_1: How do you wanna survive within that system? You get a say. You get autonomy. What do you wanna do?

(0:56:47) speaker_0: Do you think a lot… Uh, uh, I mean, I know we’re just talking and, you know, a lot, many, most, I don’t know.

(0:56:54) speaker_0: It’s, it’s hard to say, but, in generalities, but, um, do you think it’s, it’s common, I guess, to…

(0:57:01) speaker_0: for adoptees who are trying to decolonize their, uh, themselves and their relationships, uh, of, you know, f- striking kind of, um, you know, with their, with their white families in these systems where it may not align with this…

(0:57:21) speaker_0: you know, with their new, you know, decolonizing their, their life and, um, that they might be one way with their white families and then m- their more authentic self with their chosen family?

(0:57:39) speaker_0:

(0:57:39) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah. If that works for folks, I say go for it. That’s not a lack of authenticity. It really… We, as adoptees, we’ve always learned to adapt.

(0:57:50) speaker_1: Um, but I think it’s the awareness. Like therapy, it’s not about fixing stuff. People aren’t broken human beings.

(0:57:58) speaker_1: It’s about building awareness and then where each client gets to choose what you wanna do with that awareness, getting skills to utilize that of what works for them.

(0:58:07) speaker_1: And so, you know, decolonizing is such a… I know it’s a, it’s a pop culture phrase. It’s been going on for a long time.

(0:58:17) speaker_1: We call it coming out of the fog in different circles.

(0:58:21) speaker_1: But, um, it’s, it’s learning when it’s coming up and what you wanna do with it, and I think that awareness is really powerful.

(0:58:30) speaker_1: So rather than where I think so many, not all, but so many adoptees kind of walk in like, “I don’t know why I’m so upset or activated by their comments,” or, you know, when they’re, they’re running their mouth about xenophobia, and I don’t know what’s coming up for me.

(0:58:49) speaker_1: I haven’t had the words.” And when you have the awareness and when you have the knowledge, it’s so incredibly empowering.

(0:58:57) speaker_1: And so then you can learn how, if you choose, how to navigate that and while you keep your authentic parts of yourself.

(0:59:06) speaker_1: So that’s held for your sacred community. That’s held for our chosen family. Um, I always think about, you know, do you have somebody you can, like, text?

(0:59:16) speaker_1: (laughs) Do you have someone you can message and go, “Oh my gosh,” just so you know that you’re not alone, ’cause we all need, we all need that recognition.

(0:59:26) speaker_1: “I’m not alone in this.” Um, and, you know, when that empowerment happens, I think that can be really…

(0:59:38) speaker_1: For a lot of family systems, if I, if I came from a, a standpoint of rescuing you and providing what I thought was best for you, um, and all the sudden, it may feel like for the family, particularly for the parents, that all the sudden my child is changing versus that this part of themselves is just waking up, that they had to subjugate.

(1:00:06) speaker_1: And they get to choose how much they wanna show that or not ’cause that’s a sacred part of themselves.

(1:00:16) speaker_0: So, Jay, I have a couple more questions, but I wanna respect your time. So how, how are you feeling?

(1:00:23) speaker_1: I am… Every time I talk about this, both I get, um… Wow, I get an empowered to a certain extent of, like, I can really say this out loud….

(1:00:36) speaker_1: um, and not fear repercussion in the way that I used to. Um, and there’s also the parts of me that, that feel great loss of-

(1:00:47) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:00:47) speaker_1: … for others and within our community ’cause the work, the work’s exhausting. Um, but it’s meaningful and it’s-

(1:00:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:00:57) speaker_1: It’s necessary. And the sadness is also, why do we as a community have to be the ones to decolonize, right?

(1:01:05) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:01:06) speaker_1: Do all this, um, because of the things that have happened. And, um-

(1:01:12) speaker_0: That’s a great burden.

(1:01:15) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:01:16) speaker_0: To-

(1:01:16) speaker_1: Have to-

(1:01:17) speaker_0: Not only enlighten yourself, (laughs) but also take on the work of, you know, trying to enlighten your family.

(1:01:25) speaker_1: And I don’t… I, I, I’m big on this. Like, it is not our job to do that.

(1:01:33) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(1:01:35) speaker_1: Your authentic self. You’ve done enough. I always think the adoptee tax. (laughs) You-

(1:01:39) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:01:40) speaker_1: I tell, like, I’m like, “You’ve paid your tax.”

(1:01:42) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:01:43) speaker_1: That’s not a thing. You, you don’t have-

(1:01:44) speaker_0: Lifetime tax, we already paid. (laughs)

(1:01:47) speaker_1: Right? That’s so, so the, the emotional labor you can give people, you know, the invoice. (laughs)

(1:01:53) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:01:54) speaker_1: I, I’m like, “Just Google it.

(1:01:57) speaker_1: ” Um, I’m, I’m at, I’m at that point now with a lot of, um, particularly more predominantly, uh, white adopted spaces that, uh, request our labor without compensation or without credit.

(1:02:10) speaker_1:

(1:02:11) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:02:11) speaker_1: And, um, lived through that long enough professionally and, um, in this realm.

(1:02:18) speaker_1: So I will say this, for TRAs out there and you’re getting hit up by all these other places without, um, you know, compensation or credit.

(1:02:29) speaker_1: And are they elevating other voices within our community and Black, indigenous, Latinx, Asian, people of color communities, um, LGBTQIA, but people of color within the LGBTQIA communities?

(1:02:46) speaker_1: What…

(1:02:46) speaker_1: Then I, I would take a step back because, uh, and really know what, what your labor, where it’s gonna go and how you want to use your talents and skills, ’cause you’ve paid your tax.

(1:03:01) speaker_1:

(1:03:03) speaker_0: How do I know… How, how would I know if I have a, a narcissistic parent?

(1:03:12) speaker_1: The nar- I think some of the, some of the signs, um, is, you know, the more overt characteristics are pretty, pretty familiar.

(1:03:23) speaker_1: The yelling, aggressiveness, threatening to remove, um, their love, their relationship, threatening to remove physical items, lack of empathy, lack of remorse.

(1:03:37) speaker_1: Um, saying sorry, but you really know they’re not, they’re not sorry. Um, an inability to, to listen and allow your voice to be heard.

(1:03:49) speaker_1: Um, physical violence, sexual violence, um, definitely signs of narcissistic systems. Economic control.

(1:03:57) speaker_1: Um, I think about the power and control wheel that’s out there, um, on more overt narcissistic family systems.

(1:04:06) speaker_1: More, mo- more covert is where you’re really par-… You are parenting the parent, and you have no space for yourself to be seen or heard.

(1:04:15) speaker_1: That it always becomes centered on the parent, that their needs, uh, usurp yours, their needs of being nurtured, being safe enough, being okay enough.

(1:04:27) speaker_1: We call it parentification, but that’s a covert place of narcissism where you can’t be you.

(1:04:33) speaker_1: I see this quite a bit with transracial adoptees, that you were there to provide comfort, companionship, um, a lost child, this idealism of what this should be between a parent-child relationship, to take care of the parent, predominantly sometimes the mom, uh, the adopt caregiver, um, the mother figure.

(1:04:55) speaker_1: Um, that there is no space for you to have your own thoughts or feelings, that, um, there is gaslighting and emotional stonewalling.

(1:05:05) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:05:05) speaker_1: I tend to find that in more narcissistic systems, um, particularly, uh, families, is that you’re going to have what I call stonewalling, but then also it is complete, “I’m going to give you the silent treatment,” which in research is very specific of the psychological and neurological abuse and damage that this does.

(1:05:27) speaker_1: It hits in the same center of our brain that says, “You just hit me.

(1:05:32) speaker_1: ” And, um, coupled with the abandonment that adoptees have already experienced, it’s not in our heads, the, uh, and the rejection and loss.

(1:05:42) speaker_1: And so the stonewalling, withholding affection, withholding words and affirmation, or just pretending that you don’t exist because say, the child stepped out of line or the adoptee said or did something they didn’t like, that that fear I, I tend to find more often in more covert narcissistic families.

(1:06:02) speaker_1: Narcissistic systems also have a lot of secrecy. So some of the other characteristics may be eating disorders, substance use.

(1:06:10) speaker_1: They may also have a lot of, uh, family estrangement and fragmentation.

(1:06:15) speaker_1: And, you know, home studies have been predominantly done by white social workers for white families. It is meant to be aligned with white supremacist systems.

(1:06:25) speaker_1: The laws are shaped this way still to this day.

(1:06:28) speaker_1: So a lot of these characteristics we’re talking about, they’re not really, they’re not divulged and they’re not deconstructed.

(1:06:35) speaker_1: And a home study is not gonna catch any of that.It can catch some of it, but it’s not enough to preclude people from adopting.

(1:06:43) speaker_1: So when I talk with adoptees, um, and also because I have done home studies in the past.

(1:06:49) speaker_1: So, um, when I speak with adoptees today, it’s like, “Well, why wasn’t that caught? Why wasn’t…

(1:06:56) speaker_1: ” Well, covert, it is covert narcissism or even grandiose or malignant narcissism. They’re charmers.

(1:07:02) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:07:03) speaker_1: And many times that they can charm others and then they can gaslight, and I typically find they’ll pathologize a child.

(1:07:10) speaker_1: I’ve seen at these adoption conferences predominantly white adopt moms who will wear shirts that says RAD, mother of a RAD child, reactive attachment disorder, of a radish, of…

(1:07:24) speaker_1: A house full of radishes. How disgusting is that?

(1:07:29) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:07:29) speaker_1: Um, or I’m a trauma mama.

(1:07:32) speaker_1: So again, not only are they exposing, um, and exploiting their child’s, um, behavioral and emotional status, they’re revealing it, but they’re also then, what are they doing?

(1:07:45) speaker_1: They’re sucking the air out of the room and now they need to be comforted.

(1:07:49) speaker_0: Right.

(1:07:49) speaker_1: It’s another-

(1:07:50) speaker_0: It’s like a soccer mom kind of thing. (laughs)

(1:07:53) speaker_1: Soccer mom, yeah.

(1:07:54) speaker_1: And I think like, it’s, it’s, uh, it historically, let’s align that then with white supremacy and how white women co-opt the room, white tears, white fragility, um, centering.

(1:08:05) speaker_1:

(1:08:05) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:08:05) speaker_1: And so the adoptee is left abandoned and unto themselves. And so… But there’s no words developmentally.

(1:08:13) speaker_1: And just to be clear, you know, um, we’re not doing… I’m not doing decolonizing work with minors.

(1:08:19) speaker_1: (laughs) We’ll talk about racism, we’ll talk about-

(1:08:21) speaker_0: That’s too hard for them, right?

(1:08:23) speaker_1: Developmental… They’re not there yet. I mean, we’re not… I’m still (laughs)

(1:08:28) speaker_0: I know. (laughs)

(1:08:28) speaker_1: … grappling with that and I’m 47. Um, but that, but even the recognition, if you are enacting it, how then can you see it?

(1:08:37) speaker_1: And I think that is the hardest piece.

(1:08:40) speaker_1: Getting past the white fragility and the tears and the defensiveness or this idea of entitlement to say, “I know what’s better.

(1:08:49) speaker_1: ” (laughs) I, I tend to find that more in misogyny-

(1:08:52) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:08:53) speaker_1: … of like, “I know already what to do.”

(1:08:55) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:08:56) speaker_1: Between that system leaving the adoptee to go, “I don’t know what you’re talking… I don’t… Something’s wrong with me.

(1:09:04) speaker_1: ” Um, withholding information from birth family, they don’t need that information now. Withholding information, not going to…

(1:09:12) speaker_1: Uh, and I’m not talking about cultural events per se, just like one-time events, like actually integrating their lives within communities of color.

(1:09:22) speaker_1: Like that is the most simplistic part. You took a child from their community and culture, a community of color, and assimilated them.

(1:09:36) speaker_1: And my challenge to white adopt families that have been…

(1:09:40) speaker_1: And sometimes this is where I may never see them again in the counseling room, is what is them precluding you from going into the community when you took what you needed?

(1:09:50) speaker_1: But how are you integrating that into your lives, not just leaving that for your child?

(1:09:56) speaker_1: That narcissistic piece that says, “I know what’s best,” they already have it.

(1:10:03) speaker_1: We don’t need this community to help gird up the identity and, um, self-esteem and efficacy of our child. You know, that takes a lot of gumption, right?

(1:10:15) speaker_1: (laughs) To consider you’ve got people trying to help you and tell you how to navigate this, and this is a huge piece.

(1:10:22) speaker_1: Not just dropping them at a culture camp and going, “That’s what you get. That’s your inoculation for next year so you won’t have racism.

(1:10:31) speaker_1: ” It is who are, who’s in your circle? What is it about your, your own sense of self that says, “I don’t need this?”

(1:10:41) speaker_0: If I… Like, I’m a white adoptive parent and I have everything I need in order to raise this child of color without-

(1:10:48) speaker_1: Yes.

(1:10:48) speaker_0: … with already in my life system.

(1:10:51) speaker_1: Absolutely. I mean, when we look at like white supremacy and narcissism and we look at colonialism, of course that flows into the family.

(1:11:02) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:11:03) speaker_1: And then you’ve got caseworkers and social workers, social workers.

(1:11:06) speaker_1: My profession has been historically aligned with white supremacy, that, that will, um, only see it through that visage and see that through that lens so can validate the family going, “Hey, culture camps are great.

(1:11:17) speaker_1: That’s all you need.”

(1:11:18) speaker_0: What about adoptees who they say, “I’m fine,” you know? Or, or parents who say, “Oh, my adopted child doesn’t have any issues.”

(1:11:30) speaker_1: I always, I always find it interesting when people speak for someone else, because that speaks of my, my child is okay, and immediately kind of go into the acronym volatile, entitled, exploitive, dominating.

(1:11:48) speaker_1: Like, it’s very interesting that you know what your child already needs, that they already have that.

(1:11:55) speaker_1: And in the same way with adoptees, I’m much more, um… There is that part of like, okay, because I also think, and you know, I’m kind of going all over.

(1:12:07) speaker_1: In white culture, and most of us were raised in white culture, they’re socialized not to see it either.

(1:12:15) speaker_1: And so I can have a little bit of flexibility, I have to allow that for myself to s- to work within these systems.

(1:12:23) speaker_1: But for adoptees, particularly people of color, it is, tell me if you…

(1:12:29) speaker_1: I, I hear that you are fine, but there’s something that brought you here, and let’s explore that.

(1:12:37) speaker_1: Because typically it is the defense that’s been narrated by somebody else or the expectation to stay okay.

(1:12:45) speaker_1: And then my no- my next question is, I’m curious where you heard that.

(1:12:53) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(1:12:55) speaker_1: Where did that come from? The I’m fine.

(1:12:57) speaker_1: And sometimes we’ll get further into session, I’m like, “You know, I’m, I’m guessing that you’ve always had to be fine, right? So you wouldn’t be left.

(1:13:06) speaker_1: You always had to be fine and present that way so bad things wouldn’t happen again.”

(1:13:15) speaker_0: Like being fine is also like a performance or an expectation-

(1:13:20) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(1:13:21) speaker_0: … placed on us maybe that of, of course you’re fine, right? You’re fine.

(1:13:24) speaker_1: If that’s been mem- “Oh, my kid’s fine. They’re doing fine at school.”

(1:13:29) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:13:30) speaker_1: They’re freaking out and they’re having panic attacks, social anxiety. There’s like, especially Asian adoptees and they’re like, “They’re really smart.

(1:13:37) speaker_1: ” Horrible stereotype. They never get the services they need. I’m like, “Oh, your kids had dyslexia for like 10 years. They weren’t fine.

(1:13:44) speaker_1: They learned how to adapt to survive.” And that’s…

(1:13:48) speaker_1: It’s okay to be fine this year with adoptees and feel that, but it’s not okay to deny what may be going on underneath that, and are you okay exploring that with me?

(1:14:00) speaker_1: And most of the time adoptees say, “I never thought of it.” And we’ll go into that, like what’s happening.

(1:14:07) speaker_1: We are taught to disconnect from our bodies as adopted people. I mean, everything was transactional early on. It was very abrupt in different scenarios.

(1:14:19) speaker_1: So we disconnect and a lot of the work I do with adopted people, people of color in particular, is coming back to the body.

(1:14:28) speaker_1: Coming back to a sense of knowing that I can learn to trust intuitively my body, that I can learn to trust what’s happening, ’cause adoption in a lot of ways turns off the red flags.

(1:14:43) speaker_1: I’m not supposed to go with people I don’t know. Turn it off.

(1:14:48) speaker_1: If you’re growing up in an abusive and/or narcissistic or both system, then the red flags I’m supposed to feel, like I’m, I’m, I’m sad about what’s happening, I’m grieving and I’m freaking out because I’m the only person of color in a family reunion that brought me to rural Mississippi, and I don’t know why I’m feeling like this, but everyone’s staring at me and I’m having a behavioral response, an emotional response, and everybody’s telling me it’s fine.

(1:15:16) speaker_1: “Aren’t you cute?” And I’m not getting that response back, then I learn how to disconnect from my body to survive.

(1:15:26) speaker_1: And so so often the work is slow and it’s ongoing with transracial adoptees.

(1:15:32) speaker_1: So I may be closing my practice to new patients, but the patients that I have seen, Kiyomi, I’ve seen on and off for years, because things happen.

(1:15:43) speaker_1: And so I’m not closing it to established patients.

(1:15:48) speaker_1: I, I will provide consult for other clinicians and adoptees, but then the issue being, um, that, you know, this is longitude will work.

(1:16:01) speaker_1: That no CBT or DBT or all these interventions are going to be like, “Oh. Now you’re fixed.”

(1:16:09) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:16:10) speaker_1: Or broken. It’s what’s happened to you.

(1:16:15) speaker_0: Last thing I wanted to…

(1:16:17) speaker_0: that it kinda came up when we were talking, you know, when we were talking about rupture, whatever you call it, that might happen within a family system once you start to come out of the fog or start to, you know, really lean in on some feelings that have, uh, uh…

(1:16:40) speaker_0: that you’ve been, you know, they’re pounded out of you too. (laughs) Um, I, I’ve kind of noticed that this…

(1:16:49) speaker_0: It can also happen within couples who, you know, uh, uh, like other Korean adoptees who, you know, mid-life or that, that they have this kind of rupture with their White spouse at the same time that they’re coming out of the fog.

(1:17:04) speaker_0:

(1:17:08) speaker_1: It, it is… So, so I’m not… Couples counseling is definitely not my wheelhouse.

(1:17:13) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:17:14) speaker_1: But I… They’re individual- I see people individually, um-

(1:17:17) speaker_0: Is that similar to the family system?

(1:17:19) speaker_1: It can be, because many times we’ve been taught to, uh… We mirror what we’ve been taught, right? We mirror relationships that have been normalized.

(1:17:32) speaker_1: So if I marry into… or if I’ve been raised in Whiteness or taught to assimilate, then that’s what I know. And, and genuinely with partners who I…

(1:17:44) speaker_1: they fell in love, they do love each other. There’s a genuine deep respect and admiration. Um, I do think it is…

(1:17:53) speaker_1: It’s, there is, um, the intimacy piece and the, the difference between…

(1:17:58) speaker_1: And like being raised developmentally by parents and you’ve got the, not only they may be raising children or step-children or, um, you know, couple together, but they, their partner may have met them at a very different developmental age and stage, and when they start doing some of this work, uh, I do…

(1:18:22) speaker_1: I…

(1:18:22) speaker_1: That’s a great question, Kiyomi, ’cause I, I do share with adults, um, as you begin to kind of wake up, you can’t unsee what you see now, and how open is your partner to doing some of their own work?

(1:18:37) speaker_1: Specifically in terms of Whiteness, White fragility and White supremacy, because this inevitably is going to come out, and some of the, the pain that they may not be able to express or share with their parents, it can be dually activating when they can’t……

(1:18:55) speaker_1: when they’re trying to share this out with their partner and their partner’s getting defensive.

(1:19:00) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:19:01) speaker_1: Or their partner is, they cannot journey. That’s not the, your say, and I’ll just use this, your Koreanness wasn’t at the forefront. You were just a person.

(1:19:10) speaker_1: I didn’t see you as Korean.

(1:19:12) speaker_1: So it’s, it’s they’re getting the messages they’ve grown up with, while at the same time also trying to explain to their partner what it feels like to be adopted, when it’s coming out with them when they’re facing not just deeper intimacy and commitment, like, “Will you actually stay?

(1:19:31) speaker_1: Will you be… Will you get down and dirty with me?

(1:19:35) speaker_1: ” And especially if they have children, if their children are multiracial, then what does this mean for my child?

(1:19:43) speaker_1: And many times, their kids are the ones, and I’ve got two boys, they’re teens now, but the hardest conversations because my boys are, they’re just, they’re tru- kids are truth tellers.

(1:19:57) speaker_1: So whether that’s in the counseling room or developmentally, they are asking me questions about adoption that I ask privately to myself.

(1:20:07) speaker_1: And thankfully, I’ve had really good therapy and a great therapist now, and s- my, my partner’s support in this, so we’ve had our own places of high tension and questioning because the work is not easy.

(1:20:24) speaker_1: He’s had to do work. I’ve had to do work. We’ve had to work together.

(1:20:29) speaker_1: Um, but our ch- our kids are a reflection not only of the first time I’ve actually had human beings that reflected back biologically parts of myself, which is strange, but then asking about their birth grandparents, their cousins, their culture, in a way that I didn’t have to.

(1:20:53) speaker_1: I could completely subliminate if I needed to.

(1:20:56) speaker_1: And many times, that’s when I’m seeing couples or I’m seeing individuals and then talking through and trying to help them find a good couple’s therapist who is familiar with adoption.

(1:21:11) speaker_1: Um, and who doesn’t… A therapist who’s not going to idealize adoption.

(1:21:15) speaker_1: (laughs) ‘Cause I’ve had people tell me they’ve had therapists who tell them, “You should be grateful.”

(1:21:21) speaker_0: Right.

(1:21:22) speaker_1: “Are you upset?” It’s horrible. Um, we don’t say that-

(1:21:26) speaker_0: You should be fine, yeah.

(1:21:27) speaker_1: … with adoptees. Yeah. Like, we don’t talk about that with any other trauma-

(1:21:30) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:21:30) speaker_1: … but we tend to do that (laughs) with adoption. I’m like, “Oh, let me tell you about some of your most private stuff and then gaslight you therapeutically.

(1:21:38) speaker_1: ” Um, so I think that work for, for couples, it’s dually challenging ’cause many times adoptees may not, they’re not gonna be able, some can, to go to their parents and really discuss this.

(1:21:52) speaker_1: And they have their partner, and if their partner isn’t unable or isn’t able, it’s mirroring what they’ve experienced their whole life.

(1:22:01) speaker_1: Some may make it and some may not.

(1:22:06) speaker_0: Well, this has been (sighs) wonderful. (laughs) I mean-

(1:22:11) speaker_1: Oh. (laughs)

(1:22:12) speaker_0: You know, and it, I, I, it’s w- it’s, it, I don’t even know what I’m feeling because, you know, it’s not like I’m very joyful. (laughs) But-

(1:22:19) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:22:20) speaker_0: ‘Cause it, ’cause it is, it’s the, it’s the, uh, I’m sure it’s part of what you experience too as a, as a practitioner just the immensity of the work and the, the, the healing and the damage, and it’s-

(1:22:39) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:22:39) speaker_0: … it’s, it’s overwhelming, but it’s also the knowledge is, is fire, you know, too.

(1:22:46) speaker_1: Yeah. Let me just share. Our community, and not because…

(1:22:50) speaker_1: I’m not gonna do a positive wrap-up because of things that have happened to our community, and I say our community as, as adopted people, but particularly transracial adopted people.

(1:23:02) speaker_1:

(1:23:02) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:23:04) speaker_1: Um, we’re fire.

(1:23:05) speaker_1: I would say if, if Armageddon happens or, like, a zombie apocalypse, it’s adoptees, foster-ees, and Tupperware (laughs) that’s going to exist ’cause there’s just fire.

(1:23:20) speaker_1:

(1:23:20) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:23:20) speaker_1: Um, but there’s also a, a deep underneath that fire is, um, this incredibly deep and intuitive space that every single human being deserves to be able to tap into.

(1:23:37) speaker_1: And I’m not big on resilience in terms of trauma.

(1:23:43) speaker_1: Like, get up by your bootstraps and be resilient before, before really being able to vocalize and deconstruct the things that have happened, ’cause I don’t have to be grateful for anything outside my consent.

(1:24:00) speaker_1: And I don’t have to be grateful for the things that have happened, nor do I have to be resilient in that.

(1:24:10) speaker_1: Um, I can feel it and then learn to engage and manage what that’s going to be like on my terms. And I wanna encourage that for other adoptees.

(1:24:22) speaker_1: You get to do this on your terms. And, yeah, I wanna encourage mental health and wellness.

(1:24:32) speaker_1: You get to experience and go back to your ancestral roots, even when we don’t know, even when we’ve been removed without consent, to find places, that you come from people, especially communities of color.

(1:24:50) speaker_1: We come from people. And I remind adopted people of that, particularly communities of color…. more than just your adoption.

(1:25:00) speaker_1: You’ve come from people, and what does that define that? What does that to, to mean for you?

(1:25:06) speaker_1: And I don’t accept what other people define as what it means to be Asian, or Korean, or a Korean adoptee, a transracial adoptee. How do you define that?

(1:25:15) speaker_1: And that’s power.

(1:25:17) speaker_0: I love that. It’s almost like, it’s like we have the permission to not have to be resilient.

(1:25:26) speaker_1: Yeah. That’s tiring, isn’t it?

(1:25:29) speaker_0: Yeah. (laughs)

(1:25:30) speaker_1: I think, I think that’s so… Yeah, it’s so Western, right?

(1:25:34) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:25:35) speaker_1: It’ll be okay now. (laughs) I can be different. I can be… Transition.

(1:25:40) speaker_1: I can be changed and be impacted, but I don’t have to be resilient, unless that’s what you want to be.

(1:25:47) speaker_1: But may it be how you define that and how others expect that of you.

(1:25:53) speaker_0: J. A, how can people find out more about your work, and are you open to being contacted or… I, I know you’re-

(1:26:01) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:26:01) speaker_0: … shifting gears, so you may not be as open to being contacted.

(1:26:07) speaker_1: Yeah. I’ll, um… I’ve, I’ve set mine. People are welcome to, um… Folks are welcome to reach out email-wise.

(1:26:15) speaker_1: Give me at least 48 hours to respond, unless, of course, you’re an active client @counsel, so C-U-N as in Nancy, S-E-L @mcscounsel.com.

(1:26:29) speaker_1: Really, I’ve, I’ve pulled back. I’ve shut down the majority of my website, and I’m not so much on, uh, social media. I really protect my, um-

(1:26:42) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Sure.

(1:26:43) speaker_1: … my family. And, um, I was at one point, and it burned me out. Um…

(1:26:49) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:26:51) speaker_1: So for the adoptees who are out there, and especially you, who can be putting our voices out there, and putting yourself out there, like, major props.

(1:26:59) speaker_1:

(1:26:59) speaker_0: Oh. Well, thank you, and-

(1:27:03) speaker_1: Thanks.

(1:27:04) speaker_0: Thank you, uh, f- also for, uh, the incredible work.

(1:27:08) speaker_0: I can’t even imagine getting into this work when you did at a time when there were very few other transracial adoptee therapists out there.

(1:27:20) speaker_0: And then, uh, you know, I don’t even know for your c- for your other practitioners, if you, adoptee, uh, adoptees of color.

(1:27:30) speaker_0: I mean, I know there’s a directory, but it’s gonna be-

(1:27:34) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:27:35) speaker_0: … hard to even find your own kind of supports and…

(1:27:40) speaker_1: Yeah. I, I will say this. Uh, we’ve got… There’s a, a community.

(1:27:44) speaker_1: And so particularly for adoptees of color who are doing, clinicians, who are doing this work, there’s… We have a very private, um…

(1:27:53) speaker_1: We have a private, uh, list serve. And so if you are interested, especially if you are adoptee clinician, um, yeah, feel free to hit me up.

(1:28:05) speaker_1: We provide support for one another, ’cause it’s more than just working within adopt systems. It’s also working…

(1:28:14) speaker_1: There’s a lot of, just a lot of racialized aggressions and oppression and, uh, othering, particularly as adopted people, um, in mental health and working in this, in the field professionally.

(1:28:27) speaker_1: And… Yeah, there’s some great… Gosh, there’s great scholars and activists and artists and people out there. So I wanna… Yeah.

(1:28:37) speaker_1: Elevating our community and… We’re power. Y’all were power. (instrumental music)

Mia Quade Kristensen, 46, and Jannie Jung Westermann, 45, are on the board of the 34-year old Danish Korean adoptee organization, Korea Klubben. They will share about their own search and reunion stories, including one of them being in reunion with her Korean family for more than two decades. The women will also share about their community in Denmark and what is needed for the future. Besides the US and Korea, Denmark is the third most-downloaded country for the podcast. 

Audio is available on Friday, March 15, 2024. 

(0:00:09) speaker_0: Welcome to Adopted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 14 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:20) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. My name is Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.

(0:00:28) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, even our own adoptive parents, and a society that wants only a feel-good story.

(0:00:40) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. This podcast is part of changing that narrative.

(0:00:46) speaker_1: Everything that my Korean family is giving me, and I think what I’m giving them as well, but it is not something that just comes because you’re related by blood.

(0:00:56) speaker_1:

(0:00:56) speaker_0: In this episode, I talk with two friends, Jannie Westermann and Mia Quade. They are also board members of the Danish Korean Adoptee Group, Koreaklubben.

(0:01:07) speaker_0: We’ll hear a bit about their own searches for Korean family, and about the current status of their community.

(0:01:14) speaker_0: But before we start, I want to say a little about becoming a Patreon supporter. I hope you will.

(0:01:20) speaker_0: Patreon supporters can join for as little as a few dollars a month, and are helping to sustain the work of this podcast.

(0:01:28) speaker_0: All funds go directly to costs such as production help, podcasting software, music licenses, Korean translations, and more.

(0:01:38) speaker_0: Dozens of folks just like you have felt part of a community larger than themselves through these stories. You’ve told me so.

(0:01:46) speaker_0: They’ve decided the podcast is worth their support, and I hope you’ll consider joining by going to patreon.com/adoptedpodcast. Thank you.

(0:01:56) speaker_0: Now, here’s the episode.

(0:02:08) speaker_2: Uh, my name is Mia, uh, Quayde Christensen. My Korean name is Kim Sam Ya. Um, I’m 46 years old. I was adopted to Denmark in 1980.

(0:02:21) speaker_2: And I live in a smaller city called Herning.

(0:02:26) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, my name is, uh, Jannie. My Korean name is Song In Jung. And I were adopted to Denmark in ’79, and I live in Herstedbro, and I’m 45 years old.

(0:02:44) speaker_1:

(0:02:44) speaker_0: Can you guys, uh, both just kind of briefly describe your, you know, talk about your adoption story?

(0:02:51) speaker_2: Uh, yeah. Uh, shortly. Um, as you know, I was found in, in Samcheok, uh, a smaller city at the east coast in Korea, when I was two and a half years old.

(0:03:05) speaker_2: When I was found, I had injury on my right arm and right leg due to an accident. I don’t really know anything about it.

(0:03:16) speaker_2: Um, I went to the Gangneung Baby Home for half a year and was admitted into so- into hold, uh, children’s services.

(0:03:25) speaker_2: And then I was half a year also at foster care family. Um, I was three and a half years old when I came, came to Denmark. Um, yeah.

(0:03:37) speaker_2: That’s, I think that’s shortly.

(0:03:42) speaker_1: Um, uh, in my Danish adoption papers it says that I’m an orphaned, uh, child and, uh, and it says that I’m from Busan.

(0:03:53) speaker_1: Um, and that’s more or less all the information that I have been given, um, through the adoption agencies.

(0:04:05) speaker_1: Um, but in 2001, my parents and my younger sister, who is also adopted, went to Korea with this, um, group, uh, for other adoptees, uh, and with their, um, parents.

(0:04:21) speaker_1: At that time, we were able to go through and see our documents if we showed up in person at the agencies.

(0:04:30) speaker_1: And that’s, that’s what we did, and there were information, um, about my case and a very friendly, um, um, social worker at KSS, um, helped me in secret, uh, and kind of tracked down my Korean biological father.

(0:04:53) speaker_1: And I’ve been reunited with him since 2001. And in 2019, my Korean family helped me, um, to reunite with my Korean biological mother as well.

(0:05:10) speaker_0: Uh, I wanna talk about the y- um, Danish adoptee group that you both are leading, but before we get to that, k- Jenny, can you talk a little bit about, um, your reunion story with your family?

(0:05:28) speaker_0: I know you, you spoke with some of your f- with your brothers at, um, EICA this summer, and, uh, just wanted to, if you could say a little bit more about what that was like to reunite with them.

(0:05:41) speaker_0:

(0:05:41) speaker_1: Hmm. Yes. Uh, I think it was a little bit strange to reunite with biological family, with my father and my half-brothers, um, due to them being like strangers.

(0:05:57) speaker_1: I was just told that, “This is your biological father, and this is his family.” So-…

(0:06:04) speaker_1: me not being able to reconnect immediately because I did not think that we looked alike that much.

(0:06:12) speaker_1: Um, so it has been a journey for me, uh, and it was not something that came really easily.

(0:06:19) speaker_1: Um, I think our connection have been growing and we have been using a lot of effort and energy and also financials to be able to grow the relationship that we have today, which I mean, is a very strong one, but it has taken a lot of years and it has also been, like…

(0:06:38) speaker_1: because both parties have been making a- a lot of efforts.

(0:06:43) speaker_1: So, I can say that I really do love and I really do appreciate everything that my Korean family is giving me, and I think what I’m giving them as well, but it is not something that just comes because you’re, um, related by blood.

(0:07:02) speaker_1: That’s, I think (laughs) what I can s- what I can say about that.

(0:07:09) speaker_0: A lot of effort and- and money to, um, keep these relationships going, right? Or just to even grow them.

(0:07:18) speaker_1: You have to be able to use the time to travel and as you know, it’s quite expensive to, um, travel abroad.

(0:07:26) speaker_1: And also for them, because they have visit me in Denmark as well, so it’s not only me who have been taking time and money to, uh, go visit them.

(0:07:37) speaker_1: And I think because they have shown me the same, uh, will, um, and they have also, like, taken time out of their very busy schedule.

(0:07:47) speaker_1: And that means a lot to me in a way that I would not have asked them to do it, but because they have done it, I can feel that- that really do mean something, if that makes sense.

(0:07:59) speaker_1:

(0:07:59) speaker_0: So, these are your half brothers and your father who’s, uh, married another woman, not your mother?

(0:08:07) speaker_1: Exactly.

(0:08:08) speaker_0: What was it… What was their reaction to learn about you? Do you think they were hesitant or were they really enthusiastic to meet you right away?

(0:08:16) speaker_1: I think my brothers were surprised, but not really, really surprised.

(0:08:21) speaker_1: They’ve told me before that they have heard about me before, but they were not exactly aware of who I were.

(0:08:28) speaker_1: They’ve just heard my name being spoken, uh, spoken, uh, yeah, a few times.

(0:08:35) speaker_1: But as Korean children, they do not kind of ask questions to their parents, so they didn’t kind of ask my father who exactly, who I were.

(0:08:45) speaker_1: They just said that they had heard my name being mentioned before. And, um, my father’s wife was very, very friendly and very…

(0:08:56) speaker_1: has always been very caring and very, um…

(0:08:58) speaker_1: Yeah, she has been, like, actually, like a mother to me from the beginning and I think it’s because she had been told, uh, the truth about me from when they met, my father and her.

(0:09:11) speaker_1: So, I was not like a big secret. So in that way, it was really easy for me to meet the whole, uh, family on my father’s side at that time.

(0:09:21) speaker_1: And my father’s siblings all knew of me as well, so…

(0:09:24) speaker_0: And why did… Why… Were you ever told why you were given up?

(0:09:29) speaker_1: It was my grandmother, my father’s mother who gave me up for adoption without my mother and father’s consent and my mother and father split up because they were really poor and d- my father could not, uh…

(0:09:44) speaker_1: Um, yeah, he c- he didn’t earn any money, so they just had to, like, split up and my father asked m- my grandmother if she could take care of me and she said that would be okay, but my father had to go out and make…

(0:09:59) speaker_1: Uh, yeah, for his own living, so he was not able to be taken care of.

(0:10:04) speaker_0: I see. So, without your father or mother’s consent, your grandmother relinquished you and then your adoptive parents were told you were an orphan.

(0:10:15) speaker_1: Um, yes.

(0:10:16) speaker_1: My- my, uh, my mother actually tried to get a hold of me at my, uh, grandmother’s, uh, house, but she was told that I were, yeah, sent off for adoption and, um, my father also was really angry at that time when he came back and found out that my grandmother had, uh, sent me up for adoption as well.

(0:10:38) speaker_1: And in my papers it says, like you said, that I’m an orphan and I were being brought to Pusan and have been in Namkwon, uh, Children Home, but that’s not correct.

(0:10:50) speaker_1: I have been, uh, delivered in KSS in- in Seoul. So, all of my information regarding that is just, uh, like a story that is not true.

(0:11:00) speaker_0: How does it feel today to have learned that, you know, people were lied to or, you know, you were sent away without your parents’ consent?

(0:11:14) speaker_0: Um, there’s so much deception.

(0:11:17) speaker_1: Exactly, but I have known now for 24 years, so I think the anger and the, um, astonishment have been like…

(0:11:25) speaker_1: been laid to rest and now I’m just, like, trying to do my best to, uh, yeah, inform other people that if they have one of these very known stories, the one with the police station or the one with the nuns or the one about being, uh, abandoned on a staircase or something, then they, they should be aware that maybe their story is also one of these made up stories.

(0:11:51) speaker_1: Because like in Denmark we have, like… is it three or four stories, Mia, that has been, like, circling around? And, uh, most of us who was, like

(0:12:01) speaker_3: (laughs)

(0:12:01) speaker_1: … orphans are on- on paper, that’s just, like, a made-up story.

(0:12:07) speaker_0: Mia, Mia, have you wanted to search, or have you wanted to search, uh, for biological family?

(0:12:14) speaker_2: Yeah. Yeah. Um, actually I’ve been searching most of my adult life. I think I started in the beginning of the series, end ’90s…

(0:12:27) speaker_2: End ’90s, beginning z- series, to search for my family.

(0:12:32) speaker_2: I think it’s been a thing I wanted, uh, to do as long as I remember, and I tried many different ways.

(0:12:41) speaker_2: Um, I’ve been in K- in Korea four times now, and, uh, I’ve been in contact w- with medias, and I’ve been out giving out flyers, articles, newsletters, internet, uh, posts, uh, a lot of things.

(0:12:58) speaker_2: I’ve been also to television I think three times now, maybe. And, but still not anything, no clue yet to, to get closer to my biological family.

(0:13:12) speaker_0: What… Mia, what keeps you going to keep searching? It sounds like you have put a lot of effort into it, and always, uh, a lot of disappointment.

(0:13:24) speaker_2: Yeah. Um, I’ve been, um…

(0:13:28) speaker_2: I have this feeling that because I have these burn scars on the right side of my body, and, um, for many years I’ve been thinking that this could be my…

(0:13:45) speaker_2: How to say? It should be easier to recognize me.

(0:13:50) speaker_2: And as uh, as, uh, as is, is stated in my paper, I come from a smaller city, and I was thinking this is my kind of luck that it’s not a big city as Busan or Seoul.

(0:14:05) speaker_2: Um, so maybe there should be someone out there in Samcheok or Samcheok area that could recognize my baby pictures with the burn scars.

(0:14:16) speaker_2: Um, I also have this feeling that I have a sibling, very…

(0:14:21) speaker_2: Not s- so much younger or older than me, and I don’t know if, if that’s the reason actually why I still sta- still, uh, am using so much energy in trying to find my family.

(0:14:38) speaker_2: It means a lot to me.

(0:14:40) speaker_0: What… Sorry, I think there’s a delay, so, um, what do you think finding your family would… Do you think it would be some kind of, um…

(0:14:51) speaker_0: It would complete your life, or…?

(0:14:54) speaker_2: Yeah. Uh, in a way, I think it would.

(0:14:57) speaker_2: Uh, um, I stayed two and a half years with my biological family, and I have this feeling that, um, I need to know who gave birth to me, who, who were my parents, and, and I have so many questions, uh, I would like to get answered, and, um, what happened, wh- how…

(0:15:19) speaker_2: Why… How did the accident happen? Do I have sisters and brothers? And I have this, uh…

(0:15:25) speaker_2: And it’s very diffic- difficult to describe, but it’s just a feeling that I need to, to see my parents once more, and then, uh, also my Korean name actually means third daughter, so I’m sure I have ch- uh, sisters or brothers, uh, in Korea.

(0:15:46) speaker_2:

(0:15:48) speaker_0: What do you think your next step is?

(0:15:50) speaker_2: Um, I think still I need to go out in the local area around Samcheok and maybe also some of the neighbor cities, the smaller cities around Samcheok to hand out flyers, to talk to the local people, but I’m not sure because I really tried a lot.

(0:16:08) speaker_2: (instrumental music plays)

(0:16:31) speaker_0: And, uh, Janni, you said that you… W- with your brothers now you’ve forged a very close relationship with, with, um, at least one of them, right?

(0:16:42) speaker_1: I actually think both of them, but like, emotionally, but yes. But, but of course I have a stronger relationship with the one who’s…

(0:16:51) speaker_0: Oh, okay. So it, it dropped off again. So you have a stronger relationship with one of them, yeah.

(0:16:55) speaker_1: I’m not learning Korean.

(0:16:57) speaker_1: Um, I, I speak English with Hyunmoo and he’ll just kind of, uh, translate into Korean with the rest of the family, um, so he’s like the one who can connect me to the rest of the family.

(0:17:11) speaker_1:

(0:17:11) speaker_0: Now you… Your English is great, but I wonder, is it… Gosh, how difficult is it to actually… You’re seeking…

(0:17:18) speaker_0: You’re speaking a second language (laughs) to your family when you know you’re not actually speaking Danish. Like, how can you talk about complex feelings?

(0:17:28) speaker_0:

(0:17:28) speaker_1: We cannot speak re- really about the complex things. We can try to…

(0:17:34) speaker_1: Um, I think Mia can t- talk about this as well because we have been visiting, uh, my family a few times as well and Hyunmoo have been here visiting her as well.

(0:17:47) speaker_1: So Hyunmoo is actually quite open and he is very good of, um, yeah, connecting with us, but of course he’s sometimes missing words in English and I also kind of try to make my language more simple, so in that way we cannot get the com-…

(0:18:08) speaker_1: we cannot get all angles, uh, in every, um, conversation in, that’s, I think I’ll, yeah, that’s the way I’ll put it.

(0:18:17) speaker_1: I’m not able to tell him everything that I feel, and, uh, he’s not, definitely not able to tell me everything that he feel.

(0:18:25) speaker_1: But we do speak about quite, uh, sensitive stuff, (laughs) and private, um, things as well, but yeah. What, what would you say, Mia?

(0:18:36) speaker_0: So Mia, you have met Janni’s family?

(0:18:38) speaker_2: Yeah, more, several times now actually.

(0:18:42) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:18:42) speaker_2: Both in Denmark and, I think actually two times in Denmark, and now more times in Korea.

(0:18:50) speaker_2: I lived with her f- at her father’s place, and they’re really, really nice people.

(0:18:59) speaker_0: Have they sort of adopted you also?

(0:19:01) speaker_2: Yeah, you can say that. They’re really treating me like an extra child kind of. Uh, so, uh, guest, how to say, um, how is that called in English?

(0:19:13) speaker_2: You really feel at home when, when you are at, at Janni’s family. It’s really a nice feeling.

(0:19:20) speaker_2: Be- also because I don’t have found my own family in Korea, so it’s re- really nice to have this kind of connection in Korea.

(0:19:28) speaker_0: That’s nice that you can have that kind of family experience.

(0:19:32) speaker_2: Yeah, it is.

(0:19:35) speaker_0: Janni, you said when you first met your family, I know it’s 25 years ago, so half your life almost, um, that it, they felt like strangers.

(0:19:45) speaker_0: Uh, when did it feel like family?

(0:19:48) speaker_1: Ah, well, that’s a very good question because I don’t know that. I just think at some point I didn’t go to Korea because I thought I had to go.

(0:20:01) speaker_1: At one point I started to go because I wanted to go.

(0:20:05) speaker_1: But in the beginning, I felt like I really do need to go there more or less every, every year or every second year, because I knew it would be difficult for my Korean father to, um, come and visit me in Denmark.

(0:20:19) speaker_1: So I knew at that point if I wanted to get, like a stronger connection with the family in Korea, I should, yeah, I should do a lot of, um, a lot of work and, and, and put time in my calendar to go to Korea as well.

(0:20:32) speaker_1: And I think actually Snapchat helped a lot, the, the app where you just like kind of video film what you’re doing, how your life is and without saying so much, you’re just able to show your Korean family how your daily life is and what you’re doing, uh, on a normal day.

(0:20:53) speaker_1: So yeah, it gives me also a big pleasure to look into their lives and that makes me kind of feel that I’m, uh, I’m part of the family even though I don’t speak Korean and I live so far away.

(0:21:04) speaker_1: So yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the connection have grown stronger through social media actually.

(0:21:14) speaker_0: Um, how did the two of you meet?

(0:21:16) speaker_2: We also actually met, uh, through social media, through Facebook in 2018 when Janni went to Korea to see her biological mother.

(0:21:31) speaker_2: I found it very interesting and I was part of this, uh, Facebook group, uh, among Danish adoptees, and I saw this, um, I followed Janni’s stories and, uh, her posts regarding her finding and, and we started to communicate that way.

(0:21:56) speaker_2: And one day she asked if, if we should grab a cup of coffee, and since then we’ve been very good friends.

(0:22:03) speaker_0: Uh, tell, talk to, uh, tell me more about, um, the Koreaklubben. I- i- it is a group that you’re both leading?

(0:22:12) speaker_1: We are both, um, members of the board right now. So in that way you can say yes, but we were not the one who started off Koreaklubben.

(0:22:20) speaker_1: Koreaklubben is a very, a very old organization. Uh, next year we will celebrate our 35th years anniversary actually.

(0:22:29) speaker_0: Okay. Um, and would you say, uh, w- the group, uh, um, there are many that are also kind of in this mode of searching for biological family?

(0:22:43) speaker_1: Yes, of course we have members who are searching for biological families, uh, in Korea, but we also have a lot of members who do not search for families, and I think there are, uh, even more people who is not members of Koreaklubben who is searching, but they maybe not…

(0:23:01) speaker_1: yeah, they maybe don’t know how to start a family search.

(0:23:06) speaker_0: And so now in Denmark they… Do you estimate about 4,000, uh, ad- adoptees?

(0:23:12) speaker_1: No, about 9,000.

(0:23:15) speaker_0: And how many do you think… uh, what percentage are connected into Koreaklubben? Is it, uh, just a small percentage?

(0:23:21) speaker_1: Yes, but I think many people have been like a member of Koreaklubben at some point in life because we have members who comes and goes and people who may be members later on in life.

(0:23:35) speaker_1: So I think, uh, we have like had a lot of different, uh, members during the 34 years, uh, yeah, where Koreaklubben have been, uh, like an organization.

(0:23:45) speaker_1: So for many years Denmark have been very good at, yeah, making this, uh, platform where you can meet if you are like an ad- adoptee from Korea.

(0:23:55) speaker_0: Okay. What do you think, what are the needs of, uh, adult Korean adoptees?

(0:24:02) speaker_1: I myself think that we should have more support from the Korean government. Uh, I think maybe in it should…

(0:24:09) speaker_1: like, it should be easier for us to visit the country. It should be easier for us to get like a visa…. uh, like the A4 visa.

(0:24:18) speaker_1: It should be, like, something that’s just kind of were handed over to us if we couldn’t, uh, yeah, show them that we were adopted from South Korea.

(0:24:29) speaker_1: And I think there should be a set of more economical fundings so that the organizations in the different countries were able to take, uh, better care or help the adoptees with post-adoption services in different kind of ways.

(0:24:46) speaker_1: So like, I also think that we should be better, uh, to, uh, help each other in support groups.

(0:24:53) speaker_1: I think we should be able to, um, learn more about the Korean culture. We should be…

(0:25:01) speaker_1: have easier access to language exchange and, yeah, in that way, I think it would be nice to see the Korean, uh, government to take, uh, a little bit of, uh, responsibility, uh, to all of us who ha- have been adopted away, um, since, uh, the Korean War.

(0:25:21) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays)

(0:25:38) speaker_2: Yeah, um, I also agree on what Janni is saying.

(0:25:42) speaker_2: I also think it could be nice, um, to have some extra support when you are in Korea, if you want, for example, to search for your family or translate, uh, and translator or some- some kind of- of support when you are in the country, because the language is very big, uh, challenge when you’re out there.

(0:26:07) speaker_2: So, different kind of support in that way I think would be nice.

(0:26:13) speaker_0: Yeah, there is, you know, GOAL, um, the Global Overseas Adoptees Link, but you have to pay for those services.

(0:26:22) speaker_2: Yeah. Yeah, you have to. Yeah.

(0:26:25) speaker_0: So, it’d be nice to have something that, um… More support services. I- I- I understand that. What is the-

(0:26:34) speaker_2: Yeah.

(0:26:34) speaker_0: … kind of challenges that your group faces today? Uh, I suppose funding is one you said.

(0:26:40) speaker_1: Yes, and I actually think that Korea Klubben is one of the organizations who have the best fundings because we, uh, have, um, members’ fees as well in our organization.

(0:26:51) speaker_1: But I still think that carrying out all the work that I think that the Korean government should support is a very, uh, big load to put on the different local organizations worldwide.

(0:27:05) speaker_1: I think there should be, like, a better understanding that people often have some issues, uh, uh, regarding the adoption.

(0:27:15) speaker_1: And maybe people don’t think they have any issues and that’s very, very good to know as well, but many of them do have.

(0:27:24) speaker_1: And I think in that- in that way, the money and the, uh, capacity to support people should be there.

(0:27:32) speaker_1: And what we’re seeing now is that, um, yeah, a lot of groups in different countries kind of struggle to- to manage, to, uh, take care of all the- all of the members or- or the society.

(0:27:47) speaker_1: The network, like, have to, uh, do a- a huge amount of work themself. And I think, again, that it should be more…

(0:27:56) speaker_1: Spoken more freely out to the Korean government that we need and we really, uh, appreciate that they could be more… What- what can I say?

(0:28:06) speaker_1: That everybody know that they kind of support us, uh, because I think that like the OKA, like, they don’t even have their website in English.

(0:28:14) speaker_1: They only have it in Korean. They haven’t translated it. So, since they went over from the OKF to the OKA, I think that’s a little bit, um… Yeah. Yeah.

(0:28:27) speaker_1:

(0:28:28) speaker_0: And that’s like a foundation, right? Overseas Korean…

(0:28:32) speaker_1: Association now.

(0:28:34) speaker_0: Group. Okay.

(0:28:34) speaker_1: Before it was foundation.

(0:28:37) speaker_0: Okay. And is that kind of like a private, uh, foundation that supported Korean adoptees? Was that supported by the Korean government?

(0:28:47) speaker_1: Yes, that’s correct.

(0:28:50) speaker_0: Okay. Like a foundation arm. Okay. But like you said, the outreach is still lacking. It’s- it’s still in Korean. (laughs)

(0:28:59) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:28:59) speaker_1: And it would be very nice to know that they kind of support the, um, the network in the different countries, that they help with different kind of support.

(0:29:09) speaker_1: And if people don’t need it, that’s very good and very nice to know, but I think they should still put the support out there.

(0:29:17) speaker_0: Um, I heard… I’ve heard that mental health support is expensive in Denmark. Is that true?

(0:29:24) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:29:27) speaker_0: And so, do you think many adoptees just…

(0:29:30) speaker_0: They- they could use that s- kind of f- support to s- to seek, um, mental health support but they- they can’t afford it?

(0:29:40) speaker_1: Um, yes. But actually we do have, like, something we called, uh Hjemmepleje, post-adoption services in Denmark. And we can…

(0:29:51) speaker_1: Somebody from Korea Klubben actually were some of the people who fought for this, um, uh, through Ankestyrelsen.

(0:30:00) speaker_1: And it is now like incorporated into the f- the finances, uh, every year. So, we can ask for a post-adoption service through Ankestyrelsen.

(0:30:12) speaker_1: And then we can have some, um… Yeah, some support maybe. Is it eight hours, Mia?

(0:30:19) speaker_2: Yeah, I think so if- if it’s individual.You can apply for-

(0:30:25) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:30:25) speaker_2: … eight hours at a time and then that’s this group-

(0:30:29) speaker_1: Hmm.

(0:30:29) speaker_2: … conversation also.

(0:30:30) speaker_1: I think it would be, yeah. And it’s only maybe like, uh, $15, so that’s affordable.

(0:30:37) speaker_1: The- but the problem is that most of the, um, uh, yeah, it is, it’s not like all- all over the country that you can go.

(0:30:45) speaker_1: You can, you- you have to drive a little bit or you have to go to Copenhagen, um. And they…

(0:30:53) speaker_1: if you have to pay on your own it would be like $200 for one hour. Ah. But- but you only get eight hours and you have to reapply? Yes. Okay. Yeah, that’s…

(0:31:09) speaker_1: eight hours is, uh, I’ve been in therapy many, many years, so. (laughs) Yeah, yes.

(0:31:15) speaker_1: Um, but I think that’s better than some of the other countries, but still, um, yeah.

(0:31:23) speaker_1: Uh, and what are some other, uh, what are some, um, events or activities or goals of Koreaklubben at the moment?

(0:31:36) speaker_2: Mia do you want to say something?

(0:31:40) speaker_1: Oh, let me, let me, let me ask, uh, I forgot to ask, how much do you receive from the Korean government now per year?

(0:31:47) speaker_1: And is it quite difficult to get the funding?

(0:31:49) speaker_1: It’s quite difficult and we cannot say how much we get because that’s not, uh, the same amount every year, and it depends on what, um, on what, uh, project you’re, um, seeking fundings for.

(0:32:02) speaker_1: So that’s like…

(0:32:04) speaker_1: and you have to send like a report for- for each, um, afterwards that is quite, yeah, it takes a lot of hours to- to do the reports as well.

(0:32:14) speaker_1: So there’s a lot of ad- administration to- to, uh, to do this.

(0:32:19) speaker_1: Um, but I think that one- one of the most important one would be our fall camp that is like a family event, um, but I also think some of our therapeutic conversations that we are hosting is very, very important in these, uh, years nowadays.

(0:32:38) speaker_1: I think pre- prior, um, we didn’t use much time on therapeutic conversations because people were younger and people were not like, uh, feeling that many things like they do right now.

(0:32:54) speaker_1: I think we have a lot- a lot of members who have like a lot of questions and, uh, have a lot of feelings that they don’t know where it comes from.

(0:33:02) speaker_1: So I think the therapeutic conversations, the talk boxes and the group conversation and the workshops that we are hosting, that’s very, very beneficial for many of our members these days.

(0:33:15) speaker_1: Mia please, uh, correct me-

(0:33:17) speaker_2: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:33:18) speaker_1: … on what- what you think.

(0:33:20) speaker_2: Yeah, I think also the therapeutic, uh, conversations are very important for the members and it’s important that we can spread it out in the…

(0:33:32) speaker_2: in more than just, uh, our capital. Uh, we try to have both in- in Aarhus and in- in Copenhagen so we can…

(0:33:42) speaker_2: so more members are able to- to join th- these kind of, uh, events also.

(0:33:48) speaker_1: Um, what are the ages right now of, um, members who are active and what are the kinds of questions and things that people want to meet about?

(0:34:01) speaker_1: It would be like something…

(0:34:03) speaker_1: it would just be like a guess because we don’t know exactly, but I think that prior people were younger and they didn’t have any children so it was just more- more about like mirroring themself and other people who was adopted and having fun and like a get-together.

(0:34:23) speaker_1: And then I think a lot of us became a family or had children and we were very, very busy, uh, with that work and it took like years out of our, um, membership.

(0:34:38) speaker_1: Uh, we were maybe not that active, some of us, or I- I weren’t like, I wasn’t a member of Koreaklubben so I cannot say (laughs) myself but I think that’s what I heard from some of the other members.

(0:34:49) speaker_1: They have not been active when they have smaller children.

(0:34:53) speaker_1: But now when they have older children and it’s more easy to get a little bit of your own time, you have a lot of questions because you have seen maybe your children growing up or you are getting old, just knowing that if you want to connect with your Korean mother and father, your- time is running out actually.

(0:35:12) speaker_1: And I know from some of our members who is in their 50s, they definitely feel this pressure that if they want to meet any family, they really have to work really fast now these days.

(0:35:25) speaker_1:

(0:35:25) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:35:25) speaker_1: And- and that is something that Janni just mentioned, that the children are growing and getting older and becoming adults themselves. Are there…

(0:35:35) speaker_1: I suppose they also have questions-

(0:35:37) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:35:37) speaker_1: … about identity and their own feelings towards, um, their- their parents being adopted.

(0:35:43) speaker_2: Yeah, but actually in my case, uh, I’ve- I’ve always been very open about my adoption and my children know that it’s a very big part of me and- and my life, and they’re very interested in- in that I find my parents but they’re not like…

(0:36:06) speaker_2: um, how to say…

(0:36:08) speaker_1: It doesn’t affect them in the same way?

(0:36:11) speaker_2: No, not- not really. And they are very used to…

(0:36:16) speaker_2: for example, in my daughter’s, uh, school, I think third part of the class is- is people who have a mother or father from another country, so it’s very common….

(0:36:32) speaker_2: so they, I, I haven’t, I haven’t experienced that they have big questions about identity actually, not yet.

(0:36:44) speaker_0: Wh- what about racism? Do, uh, did your, you, uh, you or Janni experience racism growing up or even now or, or do your kids?

(0:36:55) speaker_1: I think there is racism in Denmark.

(0:36:59) speaker_0: Mm.

(0:36:59) speaker_1: And I have heard a lot of members saying that they have been bullied at school or they have met people who have been really, um, awful to them.

(0:37:09) speaker_1: But personally-

(0:37:10) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:37:10) speaker_1: … I, I have not, yeah.

(0:37:12) speaker_1: I’m, I’m, I, I have been growing up in a very, very small and very, uh, close, uh, community and everybody knew who I was and what family I were living at.

(0:37:26) speaker_1: Like, my father was, uh, um, yeah, very well-known in that small village, you can say that.

(0:37:34) speaker_1: So I, I have never heard anybody, uh, saying like, “Where you’re from?” Or, “You should go home,” or anything like that.

(0:37:41) speaker_1: But I think a lot of our member have, ha- like, yeah, lived that

(0:37:46) speaker_2: Yeah.

(0:37:46) speaker_2: It’s actually my impression that you should think that the bigger cities, uh, were more used to different cultures and so, but as I heard it, the pr- the racism and so are more often in the bigger cities than the smaller ones.

(0:38:04) speaker_2: That’s my impression. I haven’t been, um, I haven’t experienced racism on my own, not really. Uh, I, I know my sister ha- has but I haven’t.

(0:38:20) speaker_2: We are free adopted in my family, so. And my children haven’t experienced also.

(0:38:28) speaker_0: Uh, what do you think are the, the, the challenges for Koreaklubben going forward in the future?

(0:38:37) speaker_1: That is definitely that our members is getting older and we don’t get any like, younger (laughs) members because adoption from Korea have more or less stopped.

(0:38:47) speaker_1: So if Koreaklubben have, has to be like, have a future, we have to rethink, um, what to do in Koreaklubben in the future and who can become a member.

(0:38:58) speaker_1:

(0:38:58) speaker_2: Yeah.

(0:38:59) speaker_2: One of the, mm, challenges, uh, one, how to get more members for the, for still, um, continuing, continuing the, the, the organization and, uh, how can we include our children because, uh, not in, in the nearest future, but in many years our generation will not be here.

(0:39:29) speaker_2: So it’s important for our next generation to, to have this community, I think. So how we kind of include our children in, in this also.

(0:39:39) speaker_0: What do you personally get out of the community?

(0:39:46) speaker_2: Um, I met really good friends in, in the community. I’m not… I haven’t been member for very long time. I, I joined in 2020.

(0:40:00) speaker_2: Um, and every time I meet up, I, I f- I meet new, new friends and I can…

(0:40:08) speaker_2: I have, have so many things in common with the, the people and I, I find it very relaxing and kind of extra family for me.

(0:40:21) speaker_2: Um, it’s very easy for me to be together with other Korean adopt- adoptees.

(0:40:29) speaker_2: It’s very easy to talk about difficult issues, personal problems and so on that I, I don’t find it’s that easy to talk with my, uh, uh, Danish friends, I have to say, because we understand each other in another way and it’s so…

(0:40:49) speaker_2: It’s very easy.

(0:40:53) speaker_0: It’s like a… I’ve heard people say like instant… I mean, of course not everybody has, feels this way, but it can be kind of an instant bond or an understanding.

(0:41:04) speaker_0:

(0:41:04) speaker_2: Yeah. Yeah. You meet a new person and, and you just start talking to them as you have known them for years actually.

(0:41:16) speaker_0: Janni, how about you? What do you personally get out of being involved in, in the community?

(0:41:21) speaker_1: Hmm.

(0:41:22) speaker_1: I’ve also not been a member for so long, so I don’t know how it been before, but I think now, I think that our members find the c- community as a safe hav- haven where, like, you talked about, uh, it’s very easy to talk about more complicated things regarding our adoption.

(0:41:47) speaker_1: So if I say something, it would be okay f- for me to, uh, hear you say that you don’t agree with me. A- and that would be okay because you also an adoptee.

(0:42:00) speaker_1: But if I say the same thing and talk to some of my n- not-adopted friends and they would not agree with me, I think I would be more, um, maybe angry with them because they don’t understand me.

(0:42:15) speaker_1: So I also think in that way, we can help each other to understand that we are not all on the same page even though we are adoptees.

(0:42:25) speaker_1: Uh, but in this, uh, space, it’s okay to be, uh, like have different opinions, but-… also, there’s a very high ceiling.

(0:42:34) speaker_1: We can talk to each other about different things and we can talk about, like, non-related adoption stuff because I think it’s very important it doesn’t, like, always is about adoption.

(0:42:47) speaker_1: But I think, like Mia said, that it’s just sometimes easier to talk to somebody who is also adopted because they know exactly what you’re talking about.

(0:42:58) speaker_1: Even though they don’t agree with you, they will understand what you’re talking about.

(0:43:04) speaker_0: Um, I wanted to ask you, I don’t know if you wanna comment at all, but the D- Danish Korean Rights Group, it’s started by some Danish Korean adoptees, um, a- have you been interested in- in- are you interested in the outcome of the investigation?

(0:43:25) speaker_0:

(0:43:25) speaker_1: Yes, of course. And do you know you’re talking to some of the co-founders?

(0:43:31) speaker_0: Oh, of Danish Korean Rights Group? Okay. I didn’t… Okay.

(0:43:35) speaker_1: Of course you didn’t know because Peter don’t mention that.

(0:43:39) speaker_0: Okay. Yes, I didn’t. Um, do you wanna talk about your involvement and, you know, what you’re hoping out of the investigation?

(0:43:47) speaker_1: I think I’ll leave that up to you, Mia.

(0:43:50) speaker_2: Yeah.

(0:43:51) speaker_2: Just shortly, of course, we were hoping when Peter asked us if we would help him at that time, of course, we would like because it’s a good cause, and we would like that it should be more, how to say, transparent, uh, the process in Korea and that we could get the informations we want if we want them.

(0:44:16) speaker_2: And, um, but actually, at the moment, I don’t know where the- where we are in the- this, uh, process actually.

(0:44:28) speaker_2: I haven’t been active in the group for a long time, so I’m not part of the DKRG anymore, um, so…

(0:44:39) speaker_2: But I really hope that we succeed, uh, so we get what we want actually.

(0:44:46) speaker_1: I think I could say a statement from Koreaklubben because I think as it is our members who did start this up and it is the co-founders of DKRG’s network who was able to lift it up to this and we used our network.

(0:45:04) speaker_1: In that way, I hope that it will have a very, uh, positive outcome. In that way all our hours have not been in vain.

(0:45:13) speaker_1: Um, so in that way, yes, I really do hope that it will take something really good out of this, um, and I hope that it will be easier in the future for all of us to get access to our original adoption papers, who is in Korea.

(0:45:32) speaker_1:

(0:45:32) speaker_4: (instrumental music)

(0:45:47) speaker_0: Thank you, Jannie and Mia, for your patience across the time differences. Thanks also to new and sustaining Patreon supporters.

(0:45:56) speaker_0: Next month, I’ll be attending a free conference on the legacy of Korean adoption in Chicago, Illinois. Google Me & Korea to find out more.

(0:46:06) speaker_0: And as always, I’m eternally grateful to ǰaungjin Yoon, who has translated Season 6: Episode 19, Eric Pool and His New Hope. Go to our website, adoptedpodcast.

(0:46:20) speaker_0: com, to check it out. Until next time, I’m Kaomi Lee.

(0:46:24) speaker_4: (instrumental music)

Join me as I learn more about the Adoptee Consciousness Model developed by Dr. Susan Branco (not shown), Dr. Jaeran Kim, 55, and Grace Newton, 29, MSW. We also talk about the beginnings of their notable blogs where Kim and Newton both began writing about the impact of adoption, ‘righteous anger’ and adoptee identity.

Audio available Friday, March 1, 2024.

Dr. JaeRan Kim: 

Harlow’s Monkey

Coming to consciousness

Journal link https://www.ibpj.org/issues/articles/Susan%20F.%20Branco,%20JaeRan%20Kim,%20Grace%20Newton,%20Stephanie%20Kripa%20Cooper-Lewter,%20Paula%20O’Loughlin%20-%20….pdf

https://harlows-monkey.com/

Instagram @harlows_monkey

LinkedIn jaerankimphd

Grace Newton: 

Instagram: @redthreadbroken  

Facebook: Red Thread Broken

Twitter or X: @gracepinghua   

Website: www.redthreadbroken.com

(0:00:09) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 13 starts now. (instrumental music) This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:23) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.

(0:00:32) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our adoptive parents, and society that wants only a feel-good story.

(0:00:43) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. These are our stories.

(0:00:48) speaker_1: I think we all just recognize there was, uh, room for more nuance, um, and deeper discussions around, uh, how we think about being adoptees.

(0:00:57) speaker_0: In this episode, I talk with Dr. Jaeran Kim and PhD student, Grace Newton.

(0:01:04) speaker_0: They’re researchers and both transracially adopted and respected bloggers in the adoptee space. Along with Dr.

(0:01:12) speaker_0: Susan Bronco, they’ve developed an adoptee consciousness model to map adoptee awareness of the impact of adoption.

(0:01:21) speaker_0: But before we start, I want to say a little about becoming a Patreon supporter.

(0:01:27) speaker_0: Patreon supporters can join for as little as a few dollars a month in, uh, helping to sustain the work of this podcast.

(0:01:35) speaker_0: All funds, 100%, go directly to cause such as production help, podcasting software, music licenses and more.

(0:01:42) speaker_0: Dozens of folks just like you have felt part of a community larger than themselves through these stories. I know because you write me all the time.

(0:01:52) speaker_0: They’ve decided the podcast is worth their support. At some point, I hope you will consider joining us at our Patreon also at patreon.com/adaptedpodcast.

(0:02:05) speaker_0: Thank you. Now here’s the episode. (instrumental music) So, um, Jaeron and Grace, thank you so much for being here today.

(0:02:21) speaker_0: Um, uh, why don’t- why don’t we just start off with a little bit of an introduction from both of you?

(0:02:31) speaker_1: Okay. Um, I’ll start. I’m Jaeron Kim. Uh, I’m a Korean adoptee. I was adopted to Minnesota in the early 1970s.

(0:02:45) speaker_1: And, um, I’m now 55 and I am a researcher and I’m on the faculty of the School of Social Work and Criminal Justice at University of Washington Tacoma in Washington State.

(0:02:59) speaker_1: And I do most of my research on adopt- on adoption, um, mostly on adoptee experiences, but I’ve done some research also looking at adoption processes, on adoptive and foster parents, um, and just kind of looking at it from a social work perspective and because social workers tend to be, uh, one of the primary facilitators of adoptions.

(0:03:28) speaker_1: And so I can talk a little bit more about why I chose to become a researcher, but, um, that’s kind of who I am and- and what I do.

(0:03:37) speaker_2: Okay. I can go. My name is Grace Newton and I’m a Chinese adoptee.

(0:03:44) speaker_2: I am currently 29 years old, and I was adopted in 1997 from Nanjing, China when I was three years old.

(0:03:54) speaker_2: I first came into my consciousness around my adoptee identity, um, and all of the political elements of that when I was in my first year of undergrad in Minnesota, which prompted me to start my critical adoption blog, Red Thread Broken.

(0:04:15) speaker_2: I’ve been authoring that blog for the past- over a decade now, um, which really helped develop my thinking and writing around adoption.

(0:04:27) speaker_2: And I’ve continued that professionally, um, with my master’s of social work and, um, currently I’m in my first year of my PhD program also in social work at the Crown Family School of Social Work, Policy, and Practice at the University of Chicago.

(0:04:48) speaker_2:

(0:04:48) speaker_0: And I wanna thank both of you so profusely because, um, Jaeron being the author of Harlow’s Monkey and Grace with Red Thread Broken.

(0:05:00) speaker_0: I mean, both of those blogs, before podcasts there were blogs, and those blogs helped raise so many of us and even in, when I say raised, even just in our own adoptee consciousness, you know, going from an adoptee who’s, you know, really just trying to figure things out and wanting to connect with others but not knowing how or where and finding the blog is something that I think a lot of us really, uh, you know, you help name things and, um, really help a lot of us process.

(0:05:38) speaker_0: So I wanna thank you both so much. Um, how did you, you know, uh, start the blogs and, you know, want to sort of, um, dive in, uh, so publicly?

(0:05:55) speaker_1: Well, that’s a really great question, K. Lee. Um, I started Harlow’s Monkey, well-I should say, first I started writing a blog…

(0:06:06) speaker_1: I started a blog in 2004, so 20 years ago. But I wasn’t really writing a lot about adoption. It was more, you know…

(0:06:13) speaker_1: Blogs were kind of the thing then and I was just kind of starting to write, I don’t know, my rambles.

(0:06:21) speaker_1: And as I was writing that first blog, and I was totally anonymous, um, I started reading other blogs and the first blog I came across that was explicitly…

(0:06:33) speaker_1: Uh, had some adoption content was a blog called Twice the Rice. Uh, that author actually lives in Washington State now and, uh…

(0:06:42) speaker_1: But I got to know her through that blog and she, she was writing about her personal life just in general and her thoughts but every now and then, she would write about being a Korean adoptee.

(0:06:52) speaker_1: And I was really…

(0:06:54) speaker_1: I had started my own, uh, journey in the adopt- adoption consciousness in 1999 when I reconnected with an adoptee that I knew and then in 2000 I went back to Korea.

(0:07:07) speaker_1: And I was really kind of struggling to process all the things that had happened and all the things I was learning.

(0:07:15) speaker_1: And so I, I started the blog, um, the Harlow’s Monkey blog, in 2006 as a way for me to just start really processing, uh, how I felt about adoption and what my thoughts were and in conversation with other bloggers.

(0:07:30) speaker_1: Now, that’s kind of what happens on Instagram and Facebook and these other forums but back then, um, I didn’t know about all…

(0:07:39) speaker_1: You know, all those social medias hadn’t really taken off yet so it w- it was mostly conversations with other adoptees through the blog.

(0:07:47) speaker_1: And I remember reading Grace’s blog (laughs) and being so impressed and, uh, really, I thought what she was writing about was so great.

(0:07:57) speaker_1: Um, especially since, um, she was one of the first Chinese adoptee bloggers that I had come across and I thought it was just so smart.

(0:08:06) speaker_2: Aw. Thanks, Jaeryun.

(0:08:08) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:08:10) speaker_2: I think for me, I similarly started my blog as a way to process what I had learned so far about adoption.

(0:08:17) speaker_2: I had taken a class in my first year of undergrad on adoption that was quite intense and that summer when I was going home, um, I no longer was gonna have a space, like a physical space, with other adoptees to continue thinking through what we had learned.

(0:08:38) speaker_2: And so for me, creating the blog was my way of processing and developing my thoughts further on the subject of adoption.

(0:08:52) speaker_2: I remember reading Jaeryun’s blog and some of the other blogs that were out at the time during this class, and that was really my first exposure to, um, a lot of the adoptee content that was being created.

(0:09:09) speaker_2: And so I think what I saw was so many adoptees sharing s- stories and their perspectives that I hadn’t seen before, and it really was this communicative network with, um, uh, lots of comments and exchanges and I wanted to be a part of that community and I wanted to put my voice and opinions out there as well.

(0:09:37) speaker_2: Um, I remember when I started my blog I was 19 years old and so I stayed very anonymous partially because my mother was very worried about the internet but also, um, you know…

(0:09:52) speaker_2: Ageism is real and I wanted people to take me seriously. I didn’t want people to know that I was still a teenager (laughs). And, um…

(0:10:03) speaker_2: And I think the fact that I was 19 at the time is also an important part of why I joined this cr- um, blogging community which is heavily Korean adoptees and…

(0:10:15) speaker_2: Because when I started, I…

(0:10:17) speaker_2: The blog, I was a part of some Facebook groups for Chinese adoptees like China’s Children International, but at that time, the biggest group of Chinese adoptees were still in high school so the conversations were very different from the ones that I wanted to start having.

(0:10:35) speaker_2:

(0:10:37) speaker_0: You know, um, Jaeryun, you said that you also were anonymous, at least in the beginning of Harlow’s Monkey.

(0:10:44) speaker_0: Do you think there was some kind of power for both of you in being anonymous? Um, you know, Grace mentioned, you know, um, the ageism sometimes gets applied.

(0:10:55) speaker_0: Um, do you think there was somewhat like the… That having been anonymous you can say things that you might not ordinarily not want to be, um…

(0:11:11) speaker_0: You know, I think… Let’s just talk about the, the anonymity part and, you know, if there was, there was power in that.

(0:11:17) speaker_1: Yeah. Th- there definitely was for me.

(0:11:20) speaker_1: Um, my husband actually came up with the name Harlow’s Monkey, um, because when I first started a blog I didn’t know what to name myself and I knew I didn’t want to have my full name out there.

(0:11:34) speaker_1: Uh, I, I think I had a premonition or some kind of a, uh, concern already that, um, what I was reading on the internet people were using…

(0:11:48) speaker_1: You know, people were using these, uh, avatar names and creating different personas and especially when you’re talking about something so contentious like adoption which has such a strong narrative in the popular society and media and pop culture-…

(0:12:08) speaker_1: and I was mostly writing critical aspects about adoption.

(0:12:14) speaker_1: Um, and when, uh, th- the comments that I would get, um, could be quite mean and critical, and people pathologizing me and, you know, I would regularly get comments like, “You seem so angry, you should go to therapy.

(0:12:31) speaker_1: You should work on, you know, you know, I…” “What would your parents say if they read this?” And, um, any kind of, um…

(0:12:39) speaker_1: anything you would write that would kind of, goes against the dominant narrative of adoption could get really heavily criticized by people reading it.

(0:12:48) speaker_1: So, I was pretty conscious that I didn’t want to have my full name out there at first, and I was also in the process of, um, finishing my social work degree and working in, uh, social services in adoptions, and I also was a little concerned that, um, people that might know me professionally would read the blog and then, you know, have concerns about my work.

(0:13:15) speaker_1: I tried really hard to separate the two, um, but in the end it was really helpful for me, um, when I did finally kind of own it, but it took some years before I felt like I was at a place where I could, um, because people, I think, in those early days of blogging especially, were super critical and, uh, you know, it’s like what you see, the trolls of the…

(0:13:40) speaker_1: And other adoptees as well as adoptive parents or I had some adoption professionals who I didn’t know comment and, yeah, that’s, that’s kind of the reason why I, I did it.

(0:13:53) speaker_1: Um, as an adoptee I was already sensitive to the fact that people weren’t gonna think…

(0:13:59) speaker_1: Th- there’s a tendency to always think of us as children, and so I totally understand Grace’s concern about if you start writing, um, thoughtfully and critically about adoption, people always have a tendency to think that you’re either younger than you are, um, and that you’ll just mature in…

(0:14:19) speaker_1: At some point you’ll just kind of mature up and then won’t have these thoughts, you know? And that’s not true in my experience.

(0:14:26) speaker_1: I haven’t seen that in our community. I think actually the older you get, the more critical you become, but, uh, that’s not what other people think.

(0:14:35) speaker_1: So that’s kind of the reason why I stayed anonymous for the first several years.

(0:14:39) speaker_2: Yeah, I think… You know, I’ve also gotten a smattering of, uh, choice comments like, “Why do you care so much about China?

(0:14:47) speaker_2: You were just a number to that country,” or, um, “Your mother should have buyer’s remorse over you.” That’s a good one.

(0:14:55) speaker_2: And I think that when you’re anonymous (laughs), um, there’s something a little bit easier about these comments. Like they’re not at…

(0:15:09) speaker_2: directed towards you personally, they’re directed towards this blog persona, um, and I think that being anonymous also did allow me to write a little bit more boldly, um, in the beginning, and I think after a few years…

(0:15:28) speaker_2: Well, I guess the thing that, that prompted me to take ownership of my blog in a public way with my real name was that some people had started attributing my blog to another prominent Chinese adoptee, and at that point I had been writing the blog for years, I had been traveling around the conference circuit speaking, um, at different, uh, conferences and community events as the author of Red Thread Broken.

(0:16:00) speaker_2: I felt like very linked already to the blog and re- not really anonymous anymore, so I decided to make that fully formal (laughs) in introducing myself on my blog.

(0:16:10) speaker_2:

(0:16:11) speaker_0: Yeah, in a way it’s like, uh, kind of a coming out, right? Of (laughs), um…

(0:16:16) speaker_0: Uh, what was that like for you to, you know, own your blog and have it really be, you know, part of your professional name and work?

(0:16:26) speaker_1: Um, oh (laughs). I- I just don’t want to always have to be… I don’t wanna talk over Grace, um… Um, so I think…

(0:16:34) speaker_1: I’m trying to, I’m trying to ac- (laughs) I- I can’t even remember when I started publicly talking about being connected to Harlow’s Monkey, but it must have been maybe in the…

(0:16:50) speaker_1: Like around 2008 or 2010. So it had been a couple of years.

(0:16:55) speaker_1: I think it was when I decided to go back to school and do my PhD work, um, is when I became more public about it, because I was also doing more writing in other spaces at that time.

(0:17:11) speaker_1: So for me, the blog was really my outlet for writing before I started publishing, um, in, in book chapters and anthologies and, and academic papers.

(0:17:23) speaker_1: So, um, that was kind of like my practice writing in some ways, I guess, for public audiences.

(0:17:31) speaker_0: Uh, one of the things about the blog I think is… That resonated with me, is, um… I mean both of yours, is there was an…

(0:17:42) speaker_0: There was a anger there that I related to, and I was just, um…

(0:17:49) speaker_0: And I, I like the fact that, you know, uh, you know, if you’re an adoptee and you talk about being angry, um, about certain aspects of the adoption system or your own experience, um, you know, that always…

(0:18:08) speaker_0: You know, we get infantilized, that anger is a, a child reaction or, you know, um, you’re just an angry adoptee kind of thing.

(0:18:17) speaker_0: Um-And I like the fact that these were v-blogs that felt very adult and, (laughs) and that you could be angry and, and an adult and smart and, uh, confident.

(0:18:30) speaker_0: And I really felt like i-the things that I read were things I wished I could say, or I had the courage to say, but didn’t. And, you know, I…

(0:18:41) speaker_0: The blog just, um, you know, maybe helped in my own sort of, uh, coming to terms with being a storyteller and-and, uh, and- and talking about adoption, and being able to name things that I earlier had been afraid to.

(0:18:59) speaker_0: So, um, I don’t know. Is… Would you say that, um, that is an aspect of your own, you know, why you wanted to do the blogs?

(0:19:12) speaker_2: I can address the anger, I think, in relation to your last question about this kind of, like, coming out process.

(0:19:19) speaker_2: For me, I think by the time that I came out publicly on my blog, it had already become so infused with my identity that that didn’t feel, I think, as scary and as vulnerable as when I first started writing and sharing with my personal networks, um, that were, like, high school and college friends, or my mom would share with family friends.

(0:19:48) speaker_2: And I think that initially, a lot of people were surprised.

(0:19:52) speaker_2: I think especially family friends who had seen me as, like, a very happy child, um, were surprised by all these feelings and what I was saying.

(0:20:01) speaker_2: And I think that, you know, eventually, I’m so, so lucky to have so much support from my parents and all of the family friends and, and loved ones, um, uh, who continually read my blog and encourage my thinking as well.

(0:20:20) speaker_2: But it, it was a transition, and it was, um… That was a shock to them, I think, initially.

(0:20:27) speaker_2: And I think regarding your question around anger, I think that anger is an emotion that I have a hard time with.

(0:20:36) speaker_2: Um, I oftentimes say that my two emotions are, like, happy or stressed, but I think that, um, anger is definitely there sometimes.

(0:20:47) speaker_2: And I think that, I think that anger is something that I need to learn to not be so, um, avoidant of, because I think that ultimately anger can be a productive emotion when it’s channeled in things like the production of my blog.

(0:21:04) speaker_2: I think that when I go back at and read some of the older posts, they represent these kind of timestamps of where I was in my consciousness process.

(0:21:16) speaker_2: I think certain posts and certain sequences of months definitely represent more anger, and some, you know, the dominant feeling is, is more a sadness and wistfulness.

(0:21:28) speaker_2: But I think that the, the primary emotion that kind of motivated me to really get out there was this feeling of anger at so many things in the adoption system.

(0:21:44) speaker_2: Anger at the suppression of adoptee voices, anger at, um, all of these things that I wanted to expose through my blog.

(0:21:56) speaker_0: Jaeyun, do you… Would you agree that, or would, would you say that, that anger was, was a-an emotion that you were expressing as well through your blog?

(0:22:05) speaker_0:

(0:22:05) speaker_1: Yeah, I think probably anger, uh, I, I think I… Anger was a, was a larger motivation, um, or inspiration for my blog posts and, than, than Grace’s.

(0:22:22) speaker_1: Um, I, I think I was conscious of it being a driver. I remember a couple of things.

(0:22:28) speaker_1: First, I had come across a blog by two Korean adoptees called Transracial Abductees, and they were really, really angry on their blog post. And they had…

(0:22:40) speaker_1: They were the first people I remember specifically connecting adoption with the act of, like, kidnapping and trafficking.

(0:22:49) speaker_1: And it was so shocking, but it helped me realize that I could be critical and I could express that critical aspect o-of my own feelings around adoption.

(0:22:58) speaker_1: And people often will say things like, eh, especially in the early days, because I do tend to come off as maybe a little angrier or kind of harsh or strident, people always assumed that I had, like, a really terrible, um, adoptive family or that I had experienced, you know, a lot, and, and are always kind of surprised when I say, “No, I had kind of, like, the idyllic childhood in a lot of ways.

(0:23:25) speaker_1: ” So, um…

(0:23:25) speaker_1: And they always assume that I’m estranged from my adoptive parents, I don’t have a relationship with them, and that’s not to say that there haven’t been some very tense times.

(0:23:35) speaker_1: But, you know, I know a lot of adoptees who really had, uh, difficult challenges with their adoptive families, and that wasn’t my experience.

(0:23:44) speaker_1: And I think people, again, automatically assume that if you’re critical or if you have this kind of, um, kind of righteous anger, that there’s something wrong with you.

(0:23:55) speaker_1: Um, and I think anger is one of those emotions that, uh, can really be a catalyst for changing injustice. And I…

(0:24:05) speaker_1: But I think it’s about whether or not that anger ends up…

(0:24:11) speaker_1: It can be destructive or it can be used to, uh, you know, spark movements that help people who have been impressed, uh, oppressed.

(0:24:23) speaker_1: And so I think, uh-Raven Sinclair, who’s this Indigenous adoptee scholar in Canada, um, at a conference said that there’s a difference between the way we use like toxic anger and righteous rage.

(0:24:35) speaker_1: And so I like to think about it as righteous rage now.

(0:24:39) speaker_1: Um, but the rage is not about destroying other people, it’s about destroying systems or dominant ways of thinking, um, e- that, that have oppressed people.

(0:24:49) speaker_1: And, you know, we had this conversation a little earlier, Keomi, uh, that I’m gonna talk about, but this idea about lateral violence within our adoptee communities.

(0:24:59) speaker_1: I think one way that people sometimes process their trauma is through taking down other people.

(0:25:07) speaker_1: Um, and so that’s not a constructive use of anger in my opinion. Um, but again, that’s just my opinion.

(0:25:14) speaker_1: I, I, I hope it comes across that I’m trying to use my anger towards systems of oppression and systems that harm us, not other adoptees.

(0:25:26) speaker_0: Myself included, you know, if we might not be able to have these kinds of conversations over Thanksgiving with our family or, you know, the holidays, um, uh, but it’s something where…

(0:25:40) speaker_0: or even directly with, with parents, but it’s something where we can share one of your blog posts (laughs) and say, “Just read this.

(0:25:47) speaker_0: ” And I think it’s, you know, in a way, it’s kind of a proxy for being able to communicate with, um, loved ones that, um, you know, it’s very, uh, these…

(0:25:59) speaker_0: Because of all the positions in the, in the adoption triad that it’s sometimes difficult for an adopted person to talk freely within their families about their feelings about adoption, but, you know, um, having these blogs and being able to give, um, people we care about, uh, you know, uh, resources to read, um, it, you know, I think that that does serve as a, I mean, it’s a great service and a, a resource for all of us to be able to, you know…

(0:26:38) speaker_0: You’ve put to words things that we have feelings and that we may not have the courage to, to say directly.

(0:26:48) speaker_0: So, um, well, let’s, uh, move into, uh, (laughs) um, the, the reason we’re, we, um, for this podcast episode, um, Dr.

(0:26:58) speaker_0: Susan Bronco couldn’t be with us today, but, um, I’m so glad that JRon and Grace, that you’re both here to talk about this exciting model that you’ve come up with.

(0:27:09) speaker_0: Can you, uh, talk about it?

(0:27:12) speaker_1: Uh, Grace, maybe I’ll start by talking about how Susan and I, um, started talking about doing this model and then, um, and introduce y- you into the model and then, uh, you can talk about your aspect, if that’s okay?

(0:27:30) speaker_1:

(0:27:31) speaker_3: Yeah.

(0:27:31) speaker_1: Okay.

(0:27:32) speaker_1: So Susan and I met in 2011 when we were both volunteering at a family camp for adoptive families, and we met two other adoptees there, Paula O’Loughlin and Dr.

(0:27:46) speaker_1: Stephanie Cooper-Luder, uh, Crippa-Cooper-Luder, who, um, also, uh, is- has a social work PhD, um, but she doesn’t work in social work right now.

(0:27:57) speaker_1: And we all just really bonded and over the years as since…

(0:28:01) speaker_1: that we’ve known each other and we get together frequently as much as we can, we’ve been talking about in our own experiences, all of us, um, being part of these adoptee communities and seeing this movement when people first start to think about themselves and their identity development as adoptees and then when it kind of can shift or turn into more political awareness or activism.

(0:28:29) speaker_1: And, um, we had heard the term out of the fog a lot and we all felt like, “Okay, that explains kind of the first aspect of, you know, our awareness, our initial awareness about being an adoptee in these systems and how we were affected by these adoption systems.

(0:28:51) speaker_1: ” And, but it didn’t really say what happened afterwards.

(0:28:54) speaker_1: So we were, over the years, we’ve been talking about, like, “Wouldn’t it be great if we could come up with a way to talk more about, um, what happens after you come out of the fog?

(0:29:05) speaker_1: ” Because in, in all of our experiences, it wasn’t just this linear, and now we’re this, and now we’re that.

(0:29:13) speaker_1: Um, I remember first starting to understand when I was taking some social work classes, again, like with Carlos Monkey, like, oh, researchers do all these experiments to try and figure out how children can attach to parents and what happens when you lose your first, um, primary attachments, or, oh, now that I’ve, uh, kind of started to understand, uh, that I experienced adoption as a trauma and I’m married, my partner doesn’t understand, and how do I, you know, work on this with my partner who just wants me to be back to pre-consciousness?

(0:29:51) speaker_1: Or I’m a parent now and I have children, and how do I parent my children when I don’t have any language to talk about my own experience as an adoptee?

(0:30:00) speaker_1: So I think we all just recognized there was, uh, room for kind of more nuanced, um, and deeper discussions around, uh, how we think about being adoptees.

(0:30:12) speaker_1: And then we started to put together kind of some ideas, like what we wanted to see, like, “Oh, we wanted it to be a spiral and we don’t see it as linear.

(0:30:22) speaker_1: ” And then, um, Susan and I wa- we read this article that Grace had written in the special issue of Child Abuse & Neglect.

(0:30:32) speaker_4: … and she kind of, in this article, talked about all the things that we were trying to put this language around.

(0:30:39) speaker_4: And so, we reached out to Grace and asked her if she wanted to be involved in working on this paper and this model, and now the research that we’re doing around it, which we can talk about a little bit later too.

(0:30:50) speaker_4:

(0:30:50) speaker_2: Yeah. So like JaeRan mentioned, um, I had written this autoethnography that was published in the journal Child Abuse and Neglect. And I think, um…

(0:31:04) speaker_2: So the topic of the special issue is the connection between adoption and trauma, and during the time that I was writing this paper, I was in my master’s program, and I was taking a lot of classes on trauma, and I think…

(0:31:23) speaker_2: I was thinking about, um, that time period of mine in undergrad when I was first coming into consciousness around all of these aspects of being an adoptee, being a part of this huge and, like, long history of so many adoption movements, and, um, what I felt like was coming into really traumatic knowledge.

(0:31:51) speaker_2: And so…

(0:31:52) speaker_2: but there weren’t words to really describe that, um, you know, because historical trauma relies on this intergenerational transmission, but adoptees don’t.

(0:32:06) speaker_2: Um, like we have, you know, our… We don’t have this, like, intergenerational, uh, biological lineage. We… It’s this…

(0:32:17) speaker_2: I feel like all of the adoptees who have been a part of these experiences before me are ancestors in a non-biological way, and collective trauma is this experience, you know, that’s shared at the same time, but adoptees are dispersed around the world, and experience their adoption and their consciousness, um, at different rates and different times.

(0:32:44) speaker_2: And so, I was really trying to find a concept or create a concept that, um, acknowledged that it didn’t have to be this collective thing at the same time.

(0:32:56) speaker_2: It didn’t have to be intergenerational.

(0:32:59) speaker_2: Just coming into consciousness around all of this history and knowledge, and, and learning the ways that, like, the history is still present, like, just knowing that is traumatic.

(0:33:13) speaker_2: And so I, um…

(0:33:14) speaker_2: That’s basically the, the idea around my paper, The Trauma and Healing of Consciousness, this framework that, uh, consciousness can be traumatic, and it can also be healing.

(0:33:26) speaker_2: And so when I received, uh, the message from JaeRan about, um, the paper that they were working on, I was really excited to join, uh, since this was a topic that I had already been thinking about a lot, um, and I also, you know, I had been reading Harlow’s Monkey from afar, and I wanted to, um, have the chance to, to work with JaeRan and get to know her more, both in a personal and scholarly way.

(0:34:01) speaker_2: So, I think, um, there are a lot of, a lot of good motivators to joining the project.

(0:34:09) speaker_4: Mm. And I mean, to be honest, you’re all rock stars, so (laughs) um, uh, yeah, so I can understand, um, wanting to work together. Um, a-…

(0:34:23) speaker_4: What do you guys make of that term, uh, coming out of the fog? Do you like it?

(0:34:29) speaker_2: Uh, personally, I don’t love it, um, I… But, but I understand it. I mean, I think that as a metaphor, it, it… I think it’s… It can be useful.

(0:34:41) speaker_2: Um, but I think for me, I feel like, and maybe this is just my interpretation of it, I feel like it’s, it’s limiting, and I feel like you don’t just come out of the fog once.

(0:34:54) speaker_2: You know what I mean? Like, as an adoptee, I feel like there’s so many different layers and levels when you kind of learn more things.

(0:35:03) speaker_2: I think that there are, um…

(0:35:05) speaker_2: I think sometimes also coming out of the fog, and this is what I’m trying to do, and I admit, I’m not always successful at this, but I’m trying so hard to situate our own individual stories within these larger contexts.

(0:35:20) speaker_2: So, coming out of the fog to me seems like my own personal awakening for something, but part of the awakening to me is realizing you’re part of this larger, as Grace kind of said, this larger history of child placing movements, of adoption movements, and so individually, I, I remember the first time I learned about, um, home study processes, or I learned about my files not being accurate in, in Korea, or learning about…

(0:35:55) speaker_2: You know, like, all the different things that happened and it’s also like you kind of come to awareness every single time any of these things happen, and so I might still have certain areas of my kind of larger knowledge around adoption or being an adoptee that would…

(0:36:13) speaker_2: We, we would call being in status quo, kind of, “Oh, yeah, that just seems like it is what it is. It fits the dominant narrative.

(0:36:19) speaker_2: I’m not critical about it.” But then there’s other areas that I might be much more critically aware about.

(0:36:26) speaker_2: So for me, it’s not that I hate the term so much as I just feel like it, it doesn’t express a- all that I want it to express, ’cause-

(0:36:35) speaker_1: … it, it, it, it’s a term that, uh, can be useful in some ways, but I don’t… But I think then it, it, it leaves room for more to me.

(0:36:44) speaker_2: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that it works as a metaphor.

(0:36:50) speaker_2: We can all picture, like, being in this cloudy haze and then, um, being able to see things clearly, but I think that…

(0:37:00) speaker_2: And I think that Coming Out of the Fog is a term that I really didn’t question for a long time-

(0:37:06) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:37:06) speaker_2: …

(0:37:07) speaker_2: because it’s so ubiquitously used in the adoptee community, um, but I think that it really relies on this kind of pre and post state, and it doesn’t explain at all how one, like, moves through that fog.

(0:37:25) speaker_2: Which I think… and which I think we show in our model, like, can be quite difficult and, um, and, like, emotionally taxing.

(0:37:38) speaker_2: And I think, um, I think, you know, when I read through our model though, the, the different, um, touchstones really speak more to, um, yeah, the ways in which, um, adoptees are moving through these, uh, this consciousness process and, and I, um…

(0:38:02) speaker_2: The paper was already generated in a way that had that spiral motion w- when I joined the project, but that’s something that, um, I really like about the model as well, because, um, like J Ron said, I think that, you know, there are so many different, um, um, events or, um, things that can kind of spark this, this reawakening or, or movement again.

(0:38:34) speaker_2:

(0:38:34) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:38:34) speaker_2: And I think about, um…

(0:38:36) speaker_2: I think personally, right, you know, I, I came out of the fog or I moved through this consciousness process in a, in a very rapid way when I was in college, and then I think that the nice thing, like, you know, that, that kind of becomes your new status quo.

(0:38:54) speaker_2: But then an event like overturning of Roe v.

(0:38:57) speaker_2: Wade happens and that ignites a new, um, a new level of consciousness of, you know, how rights can be taken away.

(0:39:06) speaker_2: Women still don’t have autonomy over the ways they wanna make or not make their families. Like…

(0:39:12) speaker_2: And then it kind of can send you in all of those different touchstones again, whereas I think, yeah, that coming out of the fog, um, typically is just kind of thought as a before and after state.

(0:39:25) speaker_2: But like we always say, adoption is a lifelong journey, it’s a lifelong process, and so it makes sense that, um, that the consciousness part of it, even if you become conscious of certain aspects of adoption, you can…

(0:39:41) speaker_2: There’s so much history there.

(0:39:44) speaker_2: There’s always more things to be conscious of and new, um, new information that’s, that’s coming out that sparks new curiosities and questions and consciousness.

(0:39:57) speaker_2:

(0:39:57) speaker_1: And if I can add to that, the other thing I’ve seen is that in the adoptee community, it’s been used to, um, shame other people for not thinking the same thing that you think.

(0:40:11) speaker_1: So, I have seen so often people say, “Well, they’re not out of the fog,” or, “They’re still in the fog.

(0:40:19) speaker_1: ” Yeah, and in a way that, um, as we know from (laughs) it…

(0:40:24) speaker_1: when you’re trying to help other people understand something that they may have some resistance or hesitancy to believe, shaming them by telling them that they’re in the fog is not going to be the way, (laughs) the way to help people want to be, uh, kind of seeing what you’re seeing.

(0:40:42) speaker_1:

(0:40:42) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:40:42) speaker_1: Right?

(0:40:43) speaker_1: So I think, uh, I don’t like to see it leveraged against other people in ways that make adoptees feel shameful, because I feel like the greatest healing that we have, the, uh…

(0:40:56) speaker_1: that I’ve personally experienced has been through being with other adoptees and learning and sharing and hearing what’s worked for them and how they’ve processed their adoptions and what new knowledge they’re learning.

(0:41:09) speaker_1: I, I love to share all these books or these, uh, films or this discussion that we had, for me has been really he- healing.

(0:41:18) speaker_1: (background music) And, um, you shut people down when you just say, “Well, you’re in the fog.” Or “They’re in the fog.

(0:41:26) speaker_1: ” And then that, that could prevent them from feeling comfortable and engaging in adoptee spaces, which can be really scary.

(0:41:34) speaker_1: I remember the first few times in ’99 and 2000 that I attended events with other adoptees and how scary that felt.

(0:41:42) speaker_1: So, I don’t want that to be limiting for anybody else who wants to start engaging in their own process of coming to consciousness.

(0:41:51) speaker_5: (instrumental music) Why would an adoptee resist, um, delving into this consciousness, um, adoptee consciousness?

(0:42:19) speaker_5: Um, is it because it’s, it, it’s too scary? It opens them up to vulnerability?

(0:42:32) speaker_1: I think as people we, uh, humans, humans just kind of have a tendency to want-… to know the answers to things. Like, they want, they want…

(0:42:44) speaker_1: Who’s to say? A lot of us tend to like simplistic, uh, responses, and that’s why I think we struggle with this concept of both/and.

(0:42:54) speaker_1: So, a lot of adoption practices, to me, have been built around you can’t have the both/and. It has to be one or the other.

(0:43:02) speaker_1: You can’t have birth parents in your life and adoptive parents in your life. You can’t, you know…

(0:43:08) speaker_1: So I think as adoptees, we’re raised in our society to, um, to feel like we’re being disloyal, and we’re hurtful to our adoptive families and our adoptive parents if we don’t just wholeheartedly accept the dominant narrative.

(0:43:28) speaker_1: It’s, I think that that’s really frightening, you know.

(0:43:31) speaker_1: Uh, not every adoptee probably will feel this way, but I- I’ve talked to adoptees who have said, “I’ve already lost one family.

(0:43:40) speaker_1: If I express any kind of criticism or negativity about being adopted, then I might lose another family.” And that-

(0:43:48) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:43:48) speaker_1: … you know, abandonment, I think is so much at the core of so many of our emotions and our feelings and our actions and behaviors.

(0:43:56) speaker_1: So, I think for some adoptees, they just wanna feel the positive part of it, because, um, it is, it’s so hard to think that we have trauma in our lives o- and, um, that’s, that’s just, uh, engaging all those negative emotions that I think sometimes are really necessary to engage with in order for us to kind of grow.

(0:44:22) speaker_1: But I can totally see why a lot of adoptees don’t want to go there.

(0:44:27) speaker_2: Yeah, I think it’s really emotional, and it also really means, um, like, a letting go and relearning of everything that we’ve been told about adoption.

(0:44:38) speaker_2: Um, I think that, you know, as children, you wanna believe that your parents, you know, have done everything in your, in your best intentions, or, um, for your benefit, and, and I think that it can be really hard to question when you learn some of these things about adoption.

(0:45:05) speaker_2: Like, why did you do this?

(0:45:07) speaker_2: Or, why, why has adoption been set up in, in these ways that, in China, you know, required anonymity, or around the world where there are so many paper orphans?

(0:45:19) speaker_2: When you really begin to see and then question those things, it’s…

(0:45:26) speaker_2: I think oftentimes, even if, if we might have an inkling that mm, you know, there are some things that, that might not be as simple as we believe, it’s easier to believe what we’ve been told our whole lives than to really be forced to integrate new and sometimes devastating information.

(0:45:48) speaker_2: And I think that, um… I think about, you know, the ways that we learn history.

(0:45:58) speaker_2: In school, we learn really hard subjects like, um, you know, the, the removal of indigenous peoples from their lands.

(0:46:11) speaker_2: We learn about, um, the transatlantic slave trade and the US’s involvement in that.

(0:46:19) speaker_2: But we don’t learn from a young age all of the history involved in these, um, child placement and adoption movements across time.

(0:46:32) speaker_2: And so, I think that it’s really jarring to, to suddenly learn all of that, and to suddenly see our place in that history.

(0:46:46) speaker_0: It sounds like, yeah, that we can suddenly at a delayed state or age, um, in years, that we suddenly learn about more of the, um, the systematic, you know, violence and, and, um, uh, support, uh, lack of support for women in South Korea, and, and just the way the adoption system, um, meaning, you know, ideas of for-profit, um, uh, and, and child trafficking, um, illegal documents, uh, falsified identities.

(0:47:35) speaker_0: I mean, these things that you learn as an adult, you know, it, it can create kind of this, this rage, and if you have been encouraged in our family systems to keep a status, you know, the status quo, don’t rock the boat, keep the peace, um, it- it’s, it’s, you know, presents kind of this, this challenge internally of on the one hand, I feel this rage (laughs) of this new information I’ve just, you know, about, you know, my life that I’ve just learned, and then being in a family system where that’s threatening to others.

(0:48:15) speaker_0:

(0:48:15) speaker_1: I think the- that last part that you just said, Kailimi, about, um, being threatening to others, too, is a huge aspect of it, that we don’t, maybe we don’t talk about enough, and this is where I also think like the lack of support that we’ve had, um, historically for adoptees, um, you know, part of what I do in my day job is I read research studies and I- I’m very interested in going back and looking at these so-called outcome studies from-…

(0:48:48) speaker_1: the 1920s and 1930s on-

(0:48:52) speaker_0: Oh, *******.

(0:48:52) speaker_1: …

(0:48:52) speaker_1: um, people who were adopted out of foster care or, um, the foster care system, or orphanages and stuff, and indigenous, um, the adopt- Indian Adoption Project and boarding schools.

(0:49:03) speaker_1: And we’ve known for a long time that this child placement is really hard on children, that being raised in these different, um, systems outside of our original families is really tra- traumatizing.

(0:49:19) speaker_1: We have outcome studies that talk about that from the 1930s and ’40s, and yet we continue to practice as if nothing has changed.

(0:49:31) speaker_1: And so I think that, um, it just that…

(0:49:34) speaker_1: Part of it, part of it for me is that we haven’t highlighted that we’ve known about this for a long time, because these larger systems that benefit from adoptions, um, I think have actively tried to suppress this knowledge.

(0:49:51) speaker_1: And so when you’re, as an adult, learning about all of this, and then learning about how these organizations and these systems have, uh, intentionally suppressed this knowledge and information on…

(0:50:03) speaker_1: For- to you, it can be, it can be really, really difficult. It can be very traumatizing. It’s very emotional. Um, yeah.

(0:50:13) speaker_0: Okay. Um, what does the model look like? Um, if you were to draw it on a piece of paper, is it a circle? Is it a square?

(0:50:24) speaker_1: The out- the… It’s a circle, but it’s really a spiral.

(0:50:29) speaker_1: So, um, we have it as a, as an image where we’ve got five different touchstones that adoptees can find themselves kind of in, and those are status quo, rupture, dissonance, expansiveness, and then forgiveness and activism.

(0:50:48) speaker_1: But our pathways to each of these different touchstones, um, can occur not necessarily in a linear place.

(0:50:58) speaker_1: So we have kind of these dotted spiral pathways inside the circle to kind of illustrate that you can move within this larger framework and be in any of these areas at multiple times, even within the same time period, meaning I might have one touchstone that kind of talks about where I am in terms of thinking about my birth family, and I might be in a totally other place when I’m thinking about something like, uh, a- my adoptive family or around knowledge around the system of adoption and how, in my case, Korean adoption created us as orphans, um, for adoption.

(0:51:43) speaker_1: Um, you know, so there can be many different aspects as we kind of uncover and think about who we are and w- and where we fit into the larger adoptee community in each of these different, uh, kind of areas.

(0:51:56) speaker_1: And we intentionally didn’t want it to be like, first you have to be in this and then you have to be in this.

(0:52:03) speaker_1: A lot of identity models do that, but I think we see our model less as an individual identity model and more like where we are within larger contexts around, um, both a community or a family or, um, kind of systems, if that makes sense.

(0:52:23) speaker_1:

(0:52:23) speaker_0: So it’s not like stage one, stage two, stage three, or… I-

(0:52:27) speaker_1: Right.

(0:52:28) speaker_0: You go through this and then it unlocks this.

(0:52:30) speaker_1: Right. Exactly. You uncover things at every stage. Or you-

(0:52:36) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:52:36) speaker_1: Or you can, yeah.

(0:52:38) speaker_0: And different folks might… Their path might look different.

(0:52:43) speaker_1: Exactly. Mm-hmm.

(0:52:46) speaker_6: Yeah. One adoptee might spend a long, long time in dissonance, whereas someone else’s dissonance phase might be much shorter.

(0:52:59) speaker_6: Um, I think that the, the spiral nature of it really allows that, that movement and, and a natural progression of development around consciousness.

(0:53:17) speaker_0: Is the idea that adoptees… You know…

(0:53:21) speaker_0: (laughs) I just popped up, I thought of Nirvana, but is the idea that adoptees all should strive to a certain point in their conscious- in your, your consciousness model?

(0:53:35) speaker_0: Or is it that people will all kind of maybe settle, their final stage might be, or final place might be all over in that model?

(0:53:48) speaker_1: Personally, I try to stay away from the shoulds and that I don’t want to prescribe for anybody else where they should be.

(0:53:54) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:53:55) speaker_1: Uh, I think our responsibility as a community, I know my responsibility, I feel, as a scholar is to kind of uncover and through my research and my community work, help people understand where they might be at these different stages or phases, um, or their pathways through them so that they can better under the- stand themselves, but also so that they can find and understand the larger community and the supports that might help them while they’re in any of these different areas.

(0:54:28) speaker_1: Because I don’t want to say that the forgiveness and activism stage is like the perfect stage to be, because there are still things that can happen in that touchstone for you that, um, are challenging and difficult and hard.

(0:54:43) speaker_1: Um, I, I hope, I hope I’m explaining it well, but…… for me, I see this, um, model really for us to kind of think about, “Okay, where are we?

(0:54:55) speaker_1: What kind of support and community might be helpful to us at this place that we’re at now?

(0:55:02) speaker_1: ” And, um, for some of us it might be, “I wanna get over here someday,” but for other people, it may not be.

(0:55:08) speaker_1: You know, everybody is so different and unique, and I would rather see us kind of thinking about how can we support people at every different place in the model, rather than try and force people through it in a way that actually isn’t healing for them.

(0:55:23) speaker_1:

(0:55:23) speaker_2: Yeah, I agree with that.

(0:55:25) speaker_2: I think that another part of our model that we really emphasize is, um, the need for empathy for different perspectives and for adoptees wherever they fall, uh, on this spiral.

(0:55:39) speaker_2: I think that as Jaeron kind of mentioned earlier, in terms of this shaming of adoptees who are maybe still in the fog, I think that what we really acknowledge is that, um, yeah, that adoptees are gonna be in, in these touchstones at different parts of their lives.

(0:55:58) speaker_2: They may go around the spiral many times. They may go around it once.

(0:56:04) speaker_2: They may only re- like hit two of these touchstones or, or for some adoptees, you know, who, where coming into a larger, like political collective consciousness is, is a much scarier prospect.

(0:56:19) speaker_2: In some ways, remaining in status quo is a, is a protective measure, and, um, yeah, that we as a community, um, that, you know, has been so, um, marginalized and misunderstood in a lot of ways, like internally, we need to have respect for where, um, adoptees are at each of these places so that we can understand them, and then as Jaeron said, professionally, so we can understand what are the needs of adoptees who are, um, experiencing these different touchstones and different places in their consciousness process.

(0:56:58) speaker_2:

(0:56:58) speaker_0: Are there implications for, um, i- uh, implications for mental health, um, for providers, for adoptees, um, in addressing their own mental health needs?

(0:57:13) speaker_0:

(0:57:13) speaker_1: I, I’ve been hearing from, um, uh, from practitioners and mental health professionals who are aware of our model, um, that they’re using it to help their adoptee clients or other folks, maybe adoptive parents, um, to talk through the model and help them see, um, some of the points that we’re trying to make.

(0:57:35) speaker_1: One which is that everybody’s progression happens on their own, and that it- one of the things that we’re learning in our research and that we hope will help inform to your question, “Can we help mental health providers and other folks can help support adoptees?

(0:57:51) speaker_1: ” is the need for support and community at each of these different levels, and that adoptees, we’re finding, are really seeking support.

(0:57:59) speaker_1: They’re seeking a sense of belonging wherever they are in the model.

(0:58:04) speaker_1: They’re looking for people that, um, not only share their views but also, um, understand and have empathy for them, um, and I think that that’s one of the things, uh…

(0:58:16) speaker_1: with mental health professionals, there sometimes tends to be a tendency towards trying to have adoptees think about, like, “You should be here or there,” you know?

(0:58:29) speaker_1: And, um, like any other profession, the mental health profession needs decolonizing and, you know, trying to force people into certain places and spaces isn’t always healthy, and even adoptee therapists can fall into that same trap because we’re operating under a larger system, uh, health insurance and DSM and, you know, the larger medical model.

(0:58:59) speaker_1: So for all of us, I think there’s work to do, and we really do hope that this is something that can be a useful tool for, for people, and we’re trying through our social media to offer different ways that we can think about and be supportive to adoptees wherever they find themselves.

(0:59:17) speaker_1: Um, and I’m hopeful that maybe, maybe some mental health professionals will look at our model and, and apply it further, or adoptive parents.

(0:59:27) speaker_1: I’ve been- I’ve had some adoptive parents say, “We need a model like this for us because we also go through a similar process of consciousness.

(0:59:36) speaker_1: When we started adopting, we thought it was just the great thing to do, and now we’re realizing that we participated in the system.

(0:59:45) speaker_1: ” So I think that there’s lots of room for the application outside of just, uh, adoptees.

(0:59:53) speaker_0: You know, I kind of, I, I just thought of, you know, even my own experience in the adoptee community, that having this greater understanding of the different touchstones that adoptees might be experiencing, um, is so useful because I think, myself included, um, full disclosure (laughs), you know, th- this Facebook, we’re s- the Facebook, uh, algorithm where we only see kind of like-minded, uh, people in our feed or, or, or, or opinions, um, and that’s because we select people out (laughs) that we don’t wanna see their opinions, and, um, and so then we sort of just surround ourselves with like-minded people, and even in the adoptee community, I think there’s a tendency…

(1:00:49) speaker_0: I mean, o- obviously you want to be with others that you enjoy what they have to say and you’re sort of on the same page, um-…

(1:00:57) speaker_0: but I think that can create kind of a…

(1:01:00) speaker_0: there can be kind of a dissonance where, uh, you know, people within our adoptee communities are only hanging out with like-minded adoptees, and, um, and then they, there’s not an empathy that, uh, developed, actively developed towards others that are, you know, moving through a different, uh, touchstone.

(1:01:24) speaker_0: Um, I don’t know if that makes sense at all, but…

(1:01:28) speaker_1: It, it does for me, for sure. Mm-hmm.

(1:01:35) speaker_0: Um, how did you g- I know we’re, we’re at sort of an hour here, but how did you go about, uh, the three of you, um, to develop this model?

(1:01:45) speaker_1: Um, well, I think, uh, Susan and I and, in consultation with Paula and Kripa had already kind of talked about some, some of the ideas around not wanting to have a super linear model, and so we had conceptualized a spiral, and I think we had started to talk about some of the different touchstones.

(1:02:10) speaker_1: And we wanted to, because community was so much a part of it, and we were thinking about it, you know, again, not just as, like, me JaRon going through my individual, um, identity development.

(1:02:24) speaker_1: There’s all these established identity development models about race and, um, I always found them to be instructive, but a little limiting because as an adoptee, some of the things really didn’t fit with my own racial identity model.

(1:02:38) speaker_1: Like, there’s one about Asian American identity development, and because I didn’t grow up in a family that looked like me, my, uh, and I didn’t have that biological connection, there were some aspects of that model as an Asian woman that I couldn’t relate to.

(1:02:56) speaker_1: And so Susan and I were both really familiar with some of these models, and, uh, we, we started talking about what it might look like, um, if it wasn’t a linear model.

(1:03:08) speaker_1: If it was just, like, we might be in these different stages and go back and forth, and then we…

(1:03:17) speaker_1: I had discovered, um, Gloria, um, Anzaldua’s model of, um, consciousness and told Susan, like, “I think…

(1:03:26) speaker_1: ” So she outlines, like, these seven different steps and I said, “There’s so much here that she’s writing about that makes sense to me,” and then we looked at kind of other liberation models, uh, Paulo Freire’s, um, the, uh, Pedagogy of the Oppressed and kind of how people who are oppressed come to understand their own oppression.

(1:03:51) speaker_1: That’s what both of these different scholars are kind of talking about, and I was like, “Oh, that’s what we do as adoptees.

(1:03:58) speaker_1: We come to understand the mechanisms of oppression that led to us being adopted.

(1:04:05) speaker_1: ” And so, that’s where we kind of really started to flesh through what the different stages might look like, and, um, and then, you know, those were some of the things we had when we got Grace involved, and then, Grace, you can speak to, to what you think about it, but, um, so much of what she wrote about in her paper we thought was such a good illustration of some of the concepts we were, we were talking about.

(1:04:33) speaker_1:

(1:04:33) speaker_2: Yeah, I was thinking, um, I think in terms of the development of the model, I came into the project, um, the initial paper fairly late, and so I think, you know, a lot of what, um, Susan and JaRon and the others had been thinking about was already there, um, but I think that, um, yeah, like JaRon said, a lot of what I wrote about in my paper there, Trauma and Healing of Consciousness, I think really related well to what they were trying to illustrate with this model.

(1:05:18) speaker_2: And then I think subsequently as we’ve held focus groups for, um, our study that we’re using to, um, explore how adoptees move through these touchstones in their, uh, consciousness process, I think that, I think just the saliency of, um, these touchstones and, and the, um, each of the tasks and experiences that happen throughout the, the consciousness process.

(1:05:51) speaker_2:

(1:05:51) speaker_0: I wanted to… I was, I was particularly drawn to this, um, the forgiveness and activism, uh, touchpoint.

(1:06:01) speaker_0: Um, could you talk more about that, and who, who are we forg- forgiving, and, and how does that, uh, how does the activism show up?

(1:06:15) speaker_2: Sure.

(1:06:15) speaker_2: I mean, I think that the forgiveness and activism touchstone is the one that we’ve received the most questions and potential pushback on as well, and I think that a lot of that kind of comes from, uh, the, you know, the idea that adoptees are, are supposed to be grateful or supposed to be whatever, so what does it mean to forgive when we don’t want to feel those ways?

(1:06:46) speaker_2: But I think that forgiveness and activism, um, is, is so much bigger. I think that f- forgiveness in this touchstone can be forgiving a-…

(1:06:59) speaker_2: oneself for not knowing, uh, what they didn’t know before and for not understanding, um, their own, their own identity in, in these critical ways.

(1:07:14) speaker_2: Of course, forgiveness can be, um, forgiving adoptive parents if that feels right, uh, similarly for, um, for acknowledging, you know, that maybe they also didn’t have the full information when they stepped into this or, or that they were doing what they thought was best at the time given what, um, adoption professionals thought, uh, were the, the best methods or best, uh, ways to go about things.

(1:07:48) speaker_2: Um, I think forgiveness, you know, can be towards birth family and, um, I think that, you know, sometimes there’s a lot of anger around that and, and how a family could have let go or, um, relinquished or replaced someone for adoption, and then when we know the fuller histories, we realize that maybe they didn’t have a choice or maybe, um, the s- the situation surrounding relinquishment was a lot more complicated than, than we could have ever known, and so forgiving, forgiving family in that way, I think, um, activism, uh, when we talk about activism, um, I think a lot of times, um, after kind of coming into some of this information, a lot of adoptees do feel activated to, um, either create, like, generative projects like blogs or memoirs or podcasts that, um, not only, uh, allow them to process the…

(1:09:06) speaker_2: what the consciousness experience and, uh, all that knowledge means, but also in ways that, uh, help contribute to the adoptee community at large and kind of push back on these narratives and, um, the situations that led to this kind of suppression of knowledge and, and the traumatic awakening that consciousness can bring.

(1:09:33) speaker_2: So, um, DaRon?

(1:09:36) speaker_1: Yeah. No, I think you, that… I don’t have anything really to add to that. I think that’s right, yeah. That’s how I see it too.

(1:09:45) speaker_0: So both of you, being experts in this field and, um, uh, leading voices, um, after working through this model, was there anything personally that the two of you, um, that learned or, um, especially, um, resonated with you?

(1:10:10) speaker_0:

(1:10:10) speaker_1: I, I think for me, um, this is DaRon, um, I, I really love to work in collaboration with other people so, um, it’s not a surprise but I think what’s meaningful to me is that, um, Susan and Grace and I along with, um, some feedback from the community and other colleagues, Su- um, Kripa and, and Paula too, I just…

(1:10:46) speaker_1: I feel…

(1:10:47) speaker_1: I guess it’s just been meaningful to me to feel like we’re working on something that resonates with the larger adoptee community and not everybody likes it.

(1:11:00) speaker_1: I’ve, I’ve seen some feedback that people don’t resonate with it and that’s, that’s fine too.

(1:11:06) speaker_1: Um, ultimately I just wanted to help forward these larger conversations and I feel like this has been such a important and meaningful way for us to do that.

(1:11:16) speaker_1: I really enjoy working with Susan and Grace on these focus groups and, um, to me community is really, like, a high priority for me and, um, community has shown up as a theme in our coding for our focus groups that Grace talked about and so to me that’s kind of validating that people are really talking a lot about how important community is.

(1:11:41) speaker_1: So for me I would say those are kind of the, the things that, um, I found in working on this project that have been really meaningful.

(1:11:52) speaker_2: Yeah, I’m not sure how much I can share about the focus groups but I think that one thing or a couple of things that have kind of come out from the focus groups, um, that we held, uh, in relation to this I think is, um, one, I was surprised by, um, how, for how many adoptees the initial rupture or the initial point of coming into consciousness was a dual consciousness, um, so not just their adoptee identity but another critical salient identity, um, awakening was kind of happening at, at the same time, and I think another, um, thi- theme that’s kind of come out is the ways in which adoptive family and friends even potentially have been kind of dually helpful and unhelpful in the consciousness process for adoptees and so I am…

(1:12:57) speaker_2: um, I just feel so honored that we were able to receive, um, our participants-…

(1:13:04) speaker_2: narratives about their experiences in the consciousness process, and I also feel, um, very humbled and excited to, um, you know, be working with JaRon and Susan on this, uh, forthcoming paper, and, um, you know, I…

(1:13:30) speaker_2: And to be able to, to give to the adoptee- adoption community, including adoptees, and parents, and professionals information that, um, hopefully can better serve adoptees who are going through this and, and also, um, you know, increase understanding, um, of adoptees, because I think that a lot of adoptees during, during this consciousness process and, and, uh, throughout their experiences as…

(1:14:07) speaker_2: Feel kind of, like, misunderstood.

(1:14:10) speaker_2: And so, if we can provide any information that helps, um, adoptees and families better understand this, I think that, um, that’s…

(1:14:23) speaker_2: I think that’s our goal, and that’s, um, something that I feel really grateful to be able to do.

(1:14:28) speaker_0: I wanna thank you so much, um, I understand, I mean, obviously for developing this model, um, but also just the emotion- I want to acknowledge the emotional labor it takes just to even be on this podcast and spend, you know, an hour plus with me to just, you know, talk about it, so, um, to help explain it, so thank you so much.

(1:14:53) speaker_0: What’s next for, for the both of you?

(1:14:56) speaker_1: Well, for me, um, I, I just got a, a small grant to look at adoptees, like the topic of adoptees and mentoring, and so many adoptee organizations and adoptee groups, um, have mentoring programs, and we’re- my collaborators are, um, Angela Tucker and her Adoptee Mentoring Society, and, um, some folks at the University of Washington Seattle and, and, uh, a new group called Air Roots, and, um, we’re looking at the ways that adoptees provide, um, mentoring and mutual aid to each other, and what we need as a community for support.

(1:15:42) speaker_1: Um, so that’s one thing I’m working on, and then, um, I’m kind of collaborating with Holly McGinnis on her, um, Mapping the Life Course of Adoption survey that she did, and we’re working on some analysis with that as well, and I’m just really enjoying the ability to focus on adoptee research, um, right now, and, um, and because all of these have a component about only giving back to the community and being able to share with our broader adoptee community, because I think my frustration and one of the things that got me interested in becoming a researcher was that so much of it was not accessible to adoptees.

(1:16:24) speaker_1: And when I was finally able to look at the research and then see all these articles about adoptees that were written by adoptive parents, or adopting professionals, or just other people that didn’t have a connection to adoption, and I was really frustrated that I didn’t have access to that until I was in graduate school.

(1:16:44) speaker_1: And, um, and so a big component for me is being able to find ways to share, so I- I appreciate being on this podcast and being able to talk about the model because, again, it’s another way for people who don’t have access to academic scholarship to be able to know what’s, what’s going on in our community in that area with the research.

(1:17:06) speaker_1:

(1:17:09) speaker_2: Um, let’s see. Well, for me, my main goal is, you know, just continuing on my PhD journey.

(1:17:19) speaker_2: Um, I am working on a project with, um, Angelique Day at the University of Washington Seattle, um, a paper about adoptive parents, and I also am hoping to begin a paper with my advisor, Dr.

(1:17:38) speaker_2: Gina Samuels, uh, at the University of Chicago kind of tracing, um, the history of different waves of Chinese adoptees and Chinese adoption.

(1:17:51) speaker_2: I’m, you know, still at the very beginning of my PhD program, but thinking of Chinese adoption research i- for my dissertation, and so laying the groundwork for that is, um, probably, uh, part of my next steps.

(1:18:10) speaker_2:

(1:18:10) speaker_0: Where can people find out more about, um, the Adoptee Consciousness Model?

(1:18:16) speaker_1: We both have it posted on our blog, and we can send you the links to that.

(1:18:22) speaker_1: Um, it’s also published in an academic journal, which is free access, so we can also send you that, and then we post it on our social media accounts as well.

(1:18:34) speaker_1:

(1:18:35) speaker_0: Okay. And what are those accounts? How can people follow you?

(1:18:40) speaker_1: I’m @harlowsmonkey kind of everywhere. (laughs)

(1:18:49) speaker_2: (laughs) I- my handle, uh, everywhere is @redthreadbroken.

(1:18:55) speaker_0: Okay. Well, I- I appreciate you s- guys so much.

(1:18:59) speaker_0: Um, I’m going to be reading, uh, more closely about this model too, and, um, I think it’s gonna be, uh, i- it already is, but I- yeah, I think it’ll be a great resource for……

(1:19:15) speaker_0: The community to, um, to just learn about each other more and about, um, being in community with each other.

(1:19:27) speaker_0: I think that’s maybe the piece that I could see that it being really helpful is understanding, um, the different places that we all are within our adoptee experience.

(1:19:43) speaker_0: Um, so thank you so much.

(1:19:45) speaker_7: Thank you.

(1:19:46) speaker_8: Thank you for having us.

(1:19:48) speaker_9: (instrumental music)

(1:20:07) speaker_0: Thank you, Jaeron and Grace, for your time. Thanks also to new and sustaining Patreon supporters. You know who you are. Until next time, I’m Kayomi Lee.

(1:20:17) speaker_0:

(1:20:17) speaker_9: (instrumental music)

Thomas Haessly, 40, has felt like an outsider ever since he can remember. Adopted from Korea by a Danish mother and American father to Racine, Wisconsin, Haessly recalls feeling like an imposter within his family, of not quite fitting in, and again as an adult at Korean grocery stores and parenting his own children. Haessly’s sister, Mia, also an adopted Korean, is featured on Season 7, Episode 8 of this podcast. This interview is the first for the podcast where adopted siblings who grew up together open up about their lived experiences, and illustrate their differences.

Audio will be available on February 16, 2024.

(0:00:04) speaker_0: Welcome to Adopted podcast, season 7, episode 12 starts now.

(0:00:08) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays) This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:15) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:23) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, and sometimes our own adoptive parents and society that wants only a feelgood story.

(0:00:33) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated and complex than that. These are our stories.

(0:00:39) speaker_1: I had a Korean friend when I was living in Florida. She introduced me to the H-Mart, um, a long time ago.

(0:00:44) speaker_1: Whenever I go, uh, I kinda get the sense like I feel like I don’t have any, like, connection and I almost feel like I- I should (laughs) or like, you know, like, or I want to.

(0:00:53) speaker_1:

(0:00:53) speaker_0: This next episode is a first for the podcast. I talk with Thomas Haysley, a younger sibling to another episode guest, Mia Haysley, earlier this season.

(0:01:03) speaker_0: They are the first adopted Korean siblings we’ve heard from who grew up together but had some differences in their experiences with their parents.

(0:01:13) speaker_0: But before we begin, I wanna say a little bit about becoming a Patreon supporter.

(0:01:17) speaker_0: Patreon supporters can join for as little as a few dollars a month and can cancel at any time. They’re helping to sustain the work of this podcast.

(0:01:27) speaker_0: All funds go directly to costs such as production help, podcasting software, music licenses and more.

(0:01:33) speaker_0: Dozens of folks just like you have felt part of a community larger than themselves through these stories. They’ve decided the podcast is worth their support.

(0:01:42) speaker_0: If you’re new to the adoptee community and this is your first step of dipping your toe in, welcome, and I hope that you will one day support us as well.

(0:01:52) speaker_0: I hope you’ll consider joining by going to Patreon.com/Adoptedpodcast. Thank you. Now, here’s Thomas.

(0:02:00) speaker_1: (instrumental music) Uh, my name is Thomas Haessly.

(0:02:07) speaker_1: Um, I am 40 years old and I currently live in Northern Virginia near- just outside of DC area, and my Korean name is, uh, Lee Ji Sung.

(0:02:23) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:02:23) speaker_0: So Thomas, um, you are- this is probably the very first, um, sibling interview that I’ve done where I’ve interviewed, um, where both were adoptees, both your sister, Mia Haysley, who, um, I spoke with a few weeks ago and then yourself.

(0:02:45) speaker_0: So thank you for coming on.

(0:02:46) speaker_1: Yeah, of course. Happy to do it.

(0:02:48) speaker_0: Um, what did you think of that, if I can just ask, what did you think of, um, hearing your sister’s story like that?

(0:02:58) speaker_1: Um, I really enjoyed it. Um, there was a few things in there that I actually didn’t really know, I guess.

(0:03:06) speaker_1: Um, such as the, kinda the difficulties that she- that she had found out about Holt and the adoption agency.

(0:03:13) speaker_1: Y- you know, not wanting to give up the information or, you know, you know, or give up- give up my sister again, you know. So that was kind of interesting.

(0:03:23) speaker_1: I didn’t actually know that, so there’s some facts that I found out that I didn’t know and, um, kind of made me think about just growing up in general, how it was like and, uh, you know, me and my sister’s, um, experience was definitely different even though we, you know, grew up together, we- we kind of had different experiences on how we, um, you know, were adoptees, I guess, growing up in Wisconsin.

(0:03:52) speaker_1:

(0:03:54) speaker_0: Sure. Um, and remind me again, you grew up in Racine?

(0:03:58) speaker_1: That’s correct. Mm-hmm.

(0:03:59) speaker_0: Okay. Isn’t Racine also known for, um, is there like a Danish or s- Scandinavian-

(0:04:07) speaker_1: Yeah. Um-

(0:04:07) speaker_0: … dessert or something? Or you can-

(0:04:10) speaker_1: Kringles?

(0:04:10) speaker_0: The Kringles, yes.

(0:04:12) speaker_1: Yes. (laughs) Yes.

(0:04:13) speaker_1: O&H Bakery, um, yeah, that’s- yeah, it’s really big in that area, so (laughs) you don’t bring donuts to a meeting, you usually bring a Kringles, so.

(0:04:23) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays) Uh, so I guess it’s like a Danish dessert in this kind of like ovular ring (laughs) and it has, um, it’s like this light pastry with some fruit and then frosting.

(0:04:36) speaker_1: Uh, it can come in different variations and stuff, but- but for the most part, that’s one of the more common ones with a raspberry filling or maybe with pecans or something.

(0:04:45) speaker_1: But yeah, it’s…

(0:04:46) speaker_0: Now we heard in Mia’s episode that your mother, um, is Danish, grew up in, uh, you know, as a Danish immigrant, um, to America.

(0:04:56) speaker_0: So Thomas, what do you know about your origins in Korea?

(0:05:01) speaker_1: Um, not very much.

(0:05:02) speaker_1: I- I have like some paperwork from the adoption, um, that, you know, just describes a little bit such as like, um, like the ages of my- of my birth parents, uh, from when they ad- um, you know, gave me up.

(0:05:20) speaker_1: My dad was- my birth father was a bit older, I guess, graduated from high school.

(0:05:25) speaker_1: My birth mother was- was several years younger, um, didn’t graduate from high school and, um, and then, you know, gave me up at about, I think I was about three years old, maybe a little bit younger than three.

(0:05:38) speaker_1: And then I was with a foster parent, with like a foster family, um, till they- till I was adopted, so.

(0:05:46) speaker_0: And, um, so you have kind of this biographical background, but no names of your parents?

(0:05:53) speaker_1: No, they weren’t included in the paperwork, unfortunately.

(0:05:58) speaker_1: So, um, uh, I don’t think I actually ever told my sister this, but I actually did make really feeble attempt……

(0:06:07) speaker_1: to, to see, um, if I could contact my, like, you know, birth parent, you know, if any of them were looking for me.

(0:06:14) speaker_1: Um, it kind of fell apart when, you know, the Holt Agency started asking for some information that it just didn’t feel like it was…

(0:06:22) speaker_1: I was giving up my information to somebody reliable. So (laughs), um, I kind of just stopped at that point and haven’t tried again.

(0:06:30) speaker_0: So, you, you were adopted through Holt?

(0:06:31) speaker_1: Yes. Mm-hmm.

(0:06:33) speaker_0: And then what was the US agency? Was it Lutheran Social Service or?

(0:06:38) speaker_1: I think it was Bethany.

(0:06:39) speaker_0: Okay, Bethany. Okay, and so when you contacted Holt, they weren’t… You were finding it was difficult. Did you think…

(0:06:47) speaker_0: Did you have a sense that maybe they had your information and they just weren’t giving it to them?

(0:06:52) speaker_1: Um, yeah, potentially, ’cause I gave them a bunch of other information that, you know, should have been able to…

(0:06:58) speaker_1: Like a lot of my adoption information that was on my paperwork.

(0:07:01) speaker_1: Um, but they were wanting, like, my driver’s license ID, like a, like a snapshot of it and stuff, and, um, I didn’t really think that needing my Virginia driver’s license, um, should have been, like, uh, necessary right off the bat-

(0:07:18) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:07:18) speaker_1: … necessarily so. But, um, but I could have tried harder for sure. I just didn’t, like, pursue it any- any further at that point.

(0:07:26) speaker_0: And what year were you born?

(0:07:29) speaker_1: In ’83.

(0:07:31) speaker_0: Okay. And do you know the, the, the town or city?

(0:07:34) speaker_1: So, (laughs) so this is kind of where it’s interesting, ’cause, um, I, I think between, like, the translating of, like, the cities and things like that, that something probably got, um, either misinterpreted or misspelled.

(0:07:51) speaker_1: But from paperwork it says something along the lines of a, uh, Kyonggi of South Korea, which when I looked at it in a map, it doesn’t…

(0:08:01) speaker_1: You can’t find it, but it’s more closely looks like it could be, like, um, like one of the suburbs of, of Seoul, um, because I saw-

(0:08:09) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:08:09) speaker_1: … a name that looked similar to that. So, um, so I, I’m assuming that I’m from somewhere in Seoul initially.

(0:08:15) speaker_0: And, uh, is searching something that you’ve sort of recently wanted to do or is it something you’ve always wanted to do?

(0:08:26) speaker_1: So I think once I hit 40, um, I started just thinking about my life in general (laughs), uh, and, and I think I kind of came to somewhat of a realization that it might be nice to find out kind of where I came from and who, um, you know, uh…

(0:08:46) speaker_1: Yeah, just ex- where I came from.

(0:08:49) speaker_1: And so, um, I think lately, I’ve been more interested, and I think after listening to my sister’s podcast and you interviewing her, um, it kind of, like, you know, um, sparked more interest as well.

(0:09:02) speaker_1: So I- I think I, I will try and pick up that, um, you know, that investigation to see if, if I can, you know, find anything more out.

(0:09:13) speaker_0: Okay. You know, um, what, what’s your earliest memories? Um…

(0:09:18) speaker_1: (laughs) So, some of my earliest memories of…

(0:09:22) speaker_1: Uh, which, you know, I, I’m, I’m unsure if were a dream or real, but, um, I remember walking on, like, a dirt road as well as sleeping on a floor and, and being in a…

(0:09:38) speaker_1: kind of like this house that had these just big giant, um, sliding doors on it. So, um, from my understanding that… I believe it’s Korea.

(0:09:50) speaker_1: So I, I, um, I’m married and my, my wife is actually half Korean, um, and- and so her mother’s, uh, fully Korean, and when I told her about that dream, um, she actually said that makes a lot of s-…

(0:10:03) speaker_1: Could be actually Korea because of doors being like that big, sliding and, um, you know, sleeping on the floor as well as the dirt roads.

(0:10:14) speaker_1: Um, so I, I’m assuming that it’s, it’s real, but that’s, that’s about as far as back as I can remember.

(0:10:18) speaker_1: I don’t remember anything about my actual, like, adoption or coming to the United States though either (laughs).

(0:10:23) speaker_0: So you, um… Have you been back to Korea?

(0:10:27) speaker_1: Um, I haven’t. Um, I think I’m a little afraid (laughs) to go to Korea, um, ’cause, uh, I- I think I have a hard case of imposter syndrome (laughs).

(0:10:39) speaker_1: Um, ’cause I- I definitely wouldn’t feel f- like I would fit in by any means, and, and this happens to me from time to time where I’ll be, you know, uh, out, out and about and, um, you know…

(0:10:52) speaker_1: You know, like, I’ll be with my wife and, um… and they’ll start… Like, we’ll go to somewhere where it’s a…

(0:10:59) speaker_1: some kind of Korean establishment, whether it be like grocery store or even just out and about, um, and the person will start speaking to me directly in Korean, assuming that I’m…

(0:11:08) speaker_1: can speak the language and, and, and I cannot.

(0:11:11) speaker_1: And, um, my, my wife who is half but doesn’t look actually Korean, um, she speaks fluently in Korean and will end up kind of, like, stepping in and responding kind of for me.

(0:11:23) speaker_1: Uh, but it al-…

(0:11:24) speaker_1: Like, I don’t, I don’t blame the person for doing that, but I also kind of feel a little bit guilty, like I feel like I should be able to respond a lot of the time.

(0:11:33) speaker_1:

(0:11:33) speaker_0: And, you know, that’s really, um, uh, a, a tough standard we put on ourselves because, you know, obviously and as you know, um, based on, you know, being adopted, there’s really no reason why you should be able to speak Korean, you know?

(0:11:51) speaker_0:

(0:11:52) speaker_1: Yeah. And, and I definitely try and rationalize that with myself, you know, ’cause, you know, that of course makes sense.

(0:11:57) speaker_1: But for some reason, just like that-

(0:11:59) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:11:59) speaker_1: … it almost feels instinctual or just like that gut where it just… Like, I feel like I should be, I should be (laughs), um……

(0:12:08) speaker_1: able to respond and I just, and I can’t ’cause I, I did come to United States actually speaking Korean.

(0:12:15) speaker_1: Um, I was old enough to where I, I, I w- I would speak, I would sing, and I would play in Korean.

(0:12:19) speaker_1: And then, of course, you know, the language just kind of left me and I’ve absolutely no memory of it. But, um, but yeah, it just… I don’t know.

(0:12:28) speaker_1: It’s kind of this feeling that I just can’t seem to ever get rid of my whole life.

(0:12:32) speaker_1: Just I also kind of felt a little guilty that I don’t, I can’t actually play more of the part of being Korean. Um…

(0:12:41) speaker_0: If you can, um, indulge me a little bit, Thomas, can you describe what that imposter feeling, how that feels?

(0:12:49) speaker_1: Um, (sighs) I, I guess, like, I feel like I, I’m… For some reason, I’m, like, standing out. Like I…

(0:12:56) speaker_1: If, like, if, if everybody was a black dot, um, in a picture, I would be that one white dot in the center of it.

(0:13:03) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, even though, um, no one’s really looking at me and I re- and, you know, I can rationalize that much, but it just…

(0:13:10) speaker_1: I can’t shake that feeling of it where I feel like I’m just not… like, I don’t, I don’t belong. I, you know, I, I’m not like… Yeah, yeah.

(0:13:19) speaker_1: Like, I was born here, but I wasn’t raised here, and I have no real connection to the culture other than through, you know, my wife.

(0:13:29) speaker_1: And so, um, I, I guess I start feeling a bit, uh, um, I guess, kind of guilty in that, you know, I almost feel, like, let down. Like-

(0:13:39) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:39) speaker_1: … like, I feel like I am almost, like, letting myself down for not knowing more about my culture or, you know-

(0:13:45) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:45) speaker_1: … like, my, you know, I guess, my birth origin. So, um, I, I think… Yeah, I just… It…

(0:13:52) speaker_1: Uh, I’m not normally an anxious person, but I almost feel like it makes me more anxious.

(0:13:58) speaker_0: (inhales deeply) Do you think it’s, like, a… this feeling of, you know, lack of competency, cultural competency?

(0:14:04) speaker_1: Y- yeah. Actually, that would…

(0:14:06) speaker_1: Actually, that’s a really good way to describe it ’cause, um, I, I feel like I should be going there and I would be making all, like, the typical mistakes that, you know, um, any foreigner would make.

(0:14:17) speaker_1: But, um, but I feel like I shouldn’t be since I look like… I, I look Korean, but I’m not. So, um, uh, yeah, I… Like, it would be…

(0:14:28) speaker_1: I feel like it’d just be very stressful as well, where I just… I wouldn’t know any of, like, the real customs or-

(0:14:35) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:14:35) speaker_1: … courtesies and, you know, like, real history of, of the country either, other than, you know, just what we learned in school. So…

(0:14:43) speaker_0: Did you, did you read Crying In H-Mart?

(0:14:47) speaker_1: Um, I have not, no.

(0:14:49) speaker_0: So she describes, um, you know… She was similar to your wife. She’s, um, biracial, white dad and Korean mother.

(0:14:59) speaker_0: And after her mother died, you know, it’s like the Korean grocery stores were kind of, like, the connection to her mom.

(0:15:08) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:15:09) speaker_0: And I, I am s-… I remember feeling, having feelings similar to you, where when I first started going to Korean grocery stores.

(0:15:18) speaker_0: And, and to be honest, it… You know, I’ve been going to them. I first kind of went in, like, sort of 2015 or so. Um, and so it’s been s-…

(0:15:33) speaker_0: um, I don’t know, seven, eight years now where I’ve become more familiar. But… And I… A- also, I… In that time, I went to live in Korea for a year.

(0:15:42) speaker_0: But, you know, there’s still… They seem… There’s something that, I think for, um… one of…

(0:15:50) speaker_0: the Crying In H-Mart author, you know, she had these memories of childhood and tastes and flavors and labels and thi-… you know, things-

(0:16:02) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:16:02) speaker_0: … that were sentimental to her youth, right?

(0:16:05) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:16:05) speaker_0: To childhood. And when I go, and I’m sure similar to you also, it’s, it, it’s very, um… I don’t know. It’s… There’s, like, a sadness because…

(0:16:17) speaker_0: for me anyway, um, when I go, because I don’t have any of those sentimental childhood memories, and, and a part of me feels like I should have, you know.

(0:16:30) speaker_0:

(0:16:30) speaker_1: Yeah. Um, actually, that’s actually a good point ’cause that’s not something I’ve, um, kind of realized. But when I do go and…

(0:16:39) speaker_1: Like, I didn’t start going until, um… I had a Korean friend when I was living in Florida. She introduced me to the H-Mart, um, a long time ago.

(0:16:48) speaker_1: And I went to one in Atlanta once, but then I hadn’t been for a long time. And then I started going with my wife, um, and her, and her family once we met.

(0:16:57) speaker_1: And whenever I go, I…

(0:16:59) speaker_1: like, I kind of get the sense, like, I feel like, um, I don’t have any, like, connection and I almost feel like I, I should (laughs) or, like, you know, like, um…

(0:17:12) speaker_1: or I want to, or, like, this is just… It’s, it’s so foreign to me, but I feel like it shouldn’t be, um, at the same time.

(0:17:20) speaker_0: You know, as a, as a Korean adoptee, we’re used to sticking out, especially if we… you grew up in Racine-

(0:17:26) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:17:27) speaker_0: … Wisconsin. You know, white parents, um, probably stuck out quite a bit, right? In school and…

(0:17:35) speaker_1: Absolutely. I mean, um, in…

(0:17:37) speaker_1: Like, I’ve, I’ve happened to see an old picture from, from, like, this old class picture from second grade and, um, it came to me… I realized that I…

(0:17:46) speaker_1: all throughout elementary, middle, and most of high school, except for, like, the very last year where we had a, a Korean foreign exchange student, um, I was the only, um, Korean, let alone Asian in my, in my cr- class or grade, like, every, every year.

(0:18:04) speaker_1: (laughs) So, so yeah, I didn’t… um, definitely, definitely was usually the only one, um, and definitely stood out.

(0:18:11) speaker_1: I think I, I grew up not wanting to either (laughs) a lot, so.

(0:18:17) speaker_0: Well, yeah. So why do you think it feels… So we’re…

(0:18:20) speaker_0: You know, on, on the one hand, we’re so used to sticking out, it’s almost like when we don’t stick out, that might be a little uncomfortable, ’cause, uh, sort of that blending in aspect, um, is also kind of like a different sensation, right?

(0:18:37) speaker_0: Because we’re not used to it.

(0:18:38) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:18:39) speaker_0: Why… But then why…

(0:18:40) speaker_0: But, but sticking out in a, you know, like in a Korean community or a majority Asian, you know, if you’re in a majority Asian place, like, that also feels uncomfortable.

(0:18:53) speaker_0:

(0:18:53) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs) Um, I don’t know. I think… Yeah, it’s… I don’t know. It’s hard to explain, I guess. I, I, um-

(0:19:01) speaker_0: ‘Cause I think on the one hand we stick out because of vis- like, um, physically.

(0:19:06) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:19:07) speaker_0: Growing up and culturally, right?

(0:19:09) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:19:09) speaker_0: And then you’re some place where, like, I guess, intellectually we know, like, these are our people, or this is the culture I was from, but then we stick…

(0:19:17) speaker_0: We feel like we don’t belong.

(0:19:20) speaker_1: Yeah. And, and I definitely get that sense of, you know, the whole physical appearance part of it, but it, it is interesting, ’cause I, um…

(0:19:30) speaker_1: I mean, if I were to be standing i- in the middle of, like, an Asian community or, or like go to some kind of Asian, um, you know, populated area that I…

(0:19:40) speaker_1: I, I would still feel like I’m standing out physically for some reason.

(0:19:45) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:19:45) speaker_1: Um, like people would know or, or like as soon as I interacted, I guess, that’s when I know I’d immediately-

(0:19:50) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:19:50) speaker_1: … be able to stand out. Um, so it’s like-

(0:19:54) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:19:54) speaker_1: … if I go to anywhere like that I would… I’d probably be very quiet and very kept to myself, and just not…

(0:20:00) speaker_1: Very reluctant to try to do anything, ’cause… To try and keep from (laughs) standing out, um, from anything I’m doing. So…

(0:20:10) speaker_0: I think it’s also, for me anyway, it’s kind of like, um… (sighs) It’s difficult to, you know, once you’re trying to… I, I… You know, it…

(0:20:24) speaker_0: You talk about in your 40s having this, you know, desire to connect back to your roots or know more about your history, and, you know, I think a lot of us when we get to that age, sort of, you know, middle-age or, um, where we, uh, we may want to, um, connect back, and it’s hard when, you know, there’s certain gatekeepers or gatekeeping to being able to connect back.

(0:20:48) speaker_0: And one of it, I think, is language, where even if we have a desire to connect back to our roots, that language sort of relegates us as outsiders, and it’s somewhere…

(0:21:02) speaker_0: It’s something like we can’t access it.

(0:21:06) speaker_1: Um, uh, yeah.

(0:21:06) speaker_1: I do feel like the language barrier is probably one of the biggest aspects of things, where, um, you know, just being able to communicate, you know, with somebody who looks like me but isn’t speaking the same language, um, you know, that’s-

(0:21:24) speaker_0: Do you feel like there’s some, like… When you’re at the checkout, like, you disappoint them somehow-

(0:21:30) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:21:30) speaker_0: … because you’re not able to-

(0:21:31) speaker_1: Yeah, I feel like every time. Like not just, not even just the verbal but the non-verbal cues.

(0:21:36) speaker_1: Um, like for the longest time, I, I didn’t know that, um, when, when someone was handing me like a receipt and they were Korean, you know, it’d be like a sign of respect, you know, how they kind of touch their arm or present it out.

(0:21:49) speaker_1: Um, and I, I did use-

(0:21:51) speaker_0: Oh, the one hand and then their arm, their hand goes-

(0:21:54) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:21:55) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:21:56) speaker_1: Yeah. And so like I, I… Like those… There’s like some non-verbal cues that I, um…

(0:22:01) speaker_1: Or, you know, that, that I definitely don’t pick up on either until someone, you know, pointed it out to me. So, so I feel like, uh… I- I’m…

(0:22:10) speaker_1: I think I’m very self-conscious about that as well, where like if I, I’m looking the part and then I feel like I’m disrespecting somebody ’cause I missed or I’m not, I’m not aware of some kind of, you know, non-verbal gesture that, you know, I should be aware of.

(0:22:26) speaker_1: That or I… Appear that I should be aware of. So, um-

(0:22:30) speaker_0: You know, Mia talked about feeling Danish. Um-

(0:22:35) speaker_1: Y- yeah.

(0:22:35) speaker_0: Do you… Did you feel Danish, or do you still?

(0:22:39) speaker_1: So, no. That was kind of where, um, one of the differences in, in how Mia and I grew up was, um…

(0:22:46) speaker_1: Uh, so like, you know, my parents, or, you know, my mom taught her, her Korean, and so my sister grew up learning to speak Korean. She speaks it fluently.

(0:22:57) speaker_1: They never taught me that, um-

(0:23:00) speaker_0: Oh, Danish, you mean?

(0:23:01) speaker_1: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, they never taught me how to speak Danish, so, um… So I actually never really connected very much with the Danish culture either.

(0:23:10) speaker_1: So I kind of felt a little bit more distant in that regard and, you know, in that aspect of my family growing up, ’cause I couldn’t… I just…

(0:23:20) speaker_1: I, I never felt very connected to that either.

(0:23:23) speaker_1: And so I, I ended up kind of very connecting t- or ended up connecting very strongly to just general, like, American culture, I guess, um, where, you know, like, I, I feel like I would adopt those types of customs and, and, you know, traditions, uh, like faster.

(0:23:45) speaker_1: Like I, I don’t decorate my Christmas tree like, like, um, like a Danish house would.

(0:23:50) speaker_0: You don’t have the… You don’t have the Danish flags on your Christmas tree?

(0:23:52) speaker_1: (laughs) No, I don’t. Um, you know, my mom had actually sent them to me one year for Christmas when we first bought our house and, um…

(0:24:01) speaker_1: And it’s not that I didn’t want to put them up, but I just… It just didn’t f- seem to fit what, what…

(0:24:10) speaker_1: Like, the whole, like, tree and, and how things were being decorated in our house. So, like, I didn’t. Um, we still have them, but yeah, never…

(0:24:21) speaker_1: So I never connected to really being Danish either, um, for that.

(0:24:27) speaker_0: You know, your sister talked about how her relationships would feel s- she would feel closer to your mother when she spoke Danish.

(0:24:37) speaker_0: When they spoke Danish together.

(0:24:39) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:40) speaker_0: Um, w- did you feel, um, you know, did they ever maybe do that in front of you and did you feel a little bit like an outsider that you couldn’t join in?

(0:24:51) speaker_0:

(0:24:51) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, that was actually pretty, pretty common (laughs) a- and frequent.

(0:24:57) speaker_1: Um, and I, and I think a- and like language is, is something that’s so important when it comes to connecting with somebody around town where, like, I know my wife connects with her mother so much more because she, they can speak Korean together, um, regularly.

(0:25:16) speaker_1: And, um, and, and you know my wife has a sister who also can speak Korean but not as well as my wife, and so she doesn’t actually have as close of a relationship with, you know, um, their mom.

(0:25:27) speaker_1: Um, they get along, of course and whatnot, but just you can tell there’s a closer relationship between, uh, my wife and, and her mother.

(0:25:37) speaker_1: And so I, I feel like because there was such a strong connection, um, to like the Danish culture as well in, in the household that I was growing up in that I, I kind of felt almost like an outsider in, in my family as well where I was j- so much more just American.

(0:25:55) speaker_1: Um, and so, um, and even my dad who is, who is, who is American, um, he, you know, he adopted to the kind of Danish culture very strongly.

(0:26:05) speaker_1: He speaks it fluently. He lived there with my mom, of course, and, you know, had my si- you know, adopted my sister there.

(0:26:12) speaker_1: And, and so, uh, they would speak Korean, they would have friend………………………. that would come over that were… or sorry.

(0:26:18) speaker_0: They would speak Danish.

(0:26:18) speaker_1: Danish, yeah, thank you.

(0:26:20) speaker_0: Yes, yes, yes.

(0:26:20) speaker_1: They would speak Danish and bring over Danish friends and they would have these, you know, everybody speaking Danish and having, you know, their, you know, uh, good times like that.

(0:26:28) speaker_1: And so I, you know, I definitely always kind of felt left out where I, I didn’t know what was going on so I could just sit back and just watch, but I, it, so it just made me feel, um, uh, outside of everything, y- you know, kind of as usual.

(0:26:43) speaker_1: And so it, it was a little bit of a struggle to kind of ever feel like I was… like I ever fit in or was part of something, um, growing up.

(0:26:51) speaker_0: Yeah, that must have been really hard, you know.

(0:26:55) speaker_0: I mean, looking back now if you think about the fact that they, your, all the other family members had this language, uh, connection or that they bonded with, and you were left out.

(0:27:10) speaker_0:

(0:27:10) speaker_1: Yeah, and I know it wasn’t an, you know, intentional and/or obviously meant to be that way, but, um, a- and it is something that I didn’t really realize until I was older and looked back was that, um, um, I mean, I always felt like an outsider in my family growing up.

(0:27:27) speaker_1: Um, I, I couldn’t always pinpoint why, but I, I, I do think that the language part of it was probably a big aspect of it ’cause they could, they could, you know, easily talk and, and joke and, you know, um, converse about things in Danish and, and, and just have a better understanding of, of things and, and just the way to convey how you feel or, or say something can sound, you know, very different in one language to another.

(0:27:56) speaker_1: So it, it’s, um, you know, frequently, you know, um, my wife will explain to me if we’re, you know, she has me watching some kind of Korean movie or something and that like the subtitles are completely different than what they’re kind of like really saying or like there’s not a r- like an easy way to describe what this person is saying in, in English.

(0:28:18) speaker_1: So, um, so it kind of made me realize that there, there’s a lot of, um, things that are expressed from one person to another in certain languages that just aren’t the same when, when translated to like English.

(0:28:33) speaker_1: So to know the language is such a… it really does, you know, uh, make people closer in that sense.

(0:28:41) speaker_0: Do you ever wish that your parents would have put you into a Korean school when you were younger?

(0:28:45) speaker_1: To be honest, I’m kind of glad they didn’t. (laughs) Um, a- and the reason I say that-

(0:28:50) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:28:50) speaker_1: … is ’cause I, I think I would have just felt like that much more of an outsider. But that’s just my initial thought.

(0:28:56) speaker_1: I mean, if I really think about (sighs) what it would have been like, it probably…

(0:29:01) speaker_1: uh, I mean, it could have been really good to be honest ’cause, you know, more people would look like me, um, a- and things like that, and I would have grown up, um, probably feeling like I fit in a lot more or fit in somewhere at least, um, you know, growing up.

(0:29:18) speaker_1: So, um, so ’cause I think initially I’m, I s- I say I’m glad they didn’t because of just how I grew up and, you know, I’ve, I’ve really come to, um, accept and be, you know, happy for who I am now.

(0:29:30) speaker_1: Uh, so that’s why I said I’m not…

(0:29:33) speaker_1: I’m glad I didn’t, but, you know, it, it could have been just very different, I think, um, you know, good and bad, of course.

(0:29:40) speaker_1: But yeah, it, it would have been an interesting, um, upbringing. I think it definitely would have been different, I’d say.

(0:29:48) speaker_0: So you talk about, um…

(0:29:50) speaker_0: Thomas, you talk about that you just had this very American, um, childhood and, and you just, uh, identified with just being A- you know, sort of you’re all-American.

(0:30:01) speaker_0: What kinds of things did you do and how would you describe your relationship with your parents?

(0:30:06) speaker_1: Um, I mean, so I guess, you know, growing up I, you know, I just, um…

(0:30:11) speaker_1: I was just able to identify more with my friends who were just American and just kind of like your typical white American.

(0:30:21) speaker_1: Um, a- and, and just the way that they grew up, like the food they ate, um, the things they enjoyed to do, you know, that’s just kind of how I, um……

(0:30:32) speaker_1: that kind of just gravitated towards that, ’cause I feel like that’s where I felt like fit in the most, or was at least accepted the most.

(0:30:39) speaker_1: Um, and so, (sighs) I, I was never very close with my parents growing up, and, and I feel like it definitely shows as I’ve gotten older.

(0:30:48) speaker_1: You know, I, um, th- they weren’t, I mean, they weren’t, um, like these, like terrible parents by any means, but just, you know, I don’t think they realized how much certain things may have had an impact in terms of how close we would have ever been able to get.

(0:31:02) speaker_1: And so there’s, so they- there’s definitely distance between us, and, um, you know, I don’t, I, I definitely don’t speak to them very much unfortunately.

(0:31:11) speaker_1: And, um, yeah, so I kind of never really got close, because I kind of felt so distant from, from them.

(0:31:22) speaker_0: And what about your dad? Never really bonded with him as well?

(0:31:25) speaker_1: Uh, no, um, no, my dad was kind of another case (laughs) where he, he just, um, he traveled a lot and then it just kind of he was just not very…

(0:31:36) speaker_1: He’d, like, he would be gone, but then even when he was home, he felt like he was very distant as well.

(0:31:41) speaker_1: So, um, you know, in terms of, like, having any kind of, like, conversation with my parents or, like, having any kind of, like, real discussion or being able to, like, open up to them or talk to them about things, never really, um, happened, uh, at, at all.

(0:31:56) speaker_1: So, um, you know, I, I, I find myself having so- certain interests that are shared, like with my dad, but, um, but I don’t know if that’s really just for me growing up because I like it or if it’s because he actually influenced it in any way.

(0:32:11) speaker_1: I think it’s, to be honest, I think it’s the, the, um, you know, the former where I just kind of grew up that way, and that’s what I ended up liking.

(0:32:20) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah, I, I, it’s not that I don’t get along with my parents, but I definitely don’t, um, I’m not exceptionally close to them at all, and I, I definitely never have been really.

(0:32:31) speaker_1:

(0:32:35) speaker_0: Um, what did you make of, you know, you heard Mia, um, talk about her relationship with her, with your parents, and also there was some really, some tough moments, uh, with your mother really kind of accepting, um-

(0:32:53) speaker_1: Huh.

(0:32:54) speaker_0: …

(0:32:54) speaker_0: you know, the fact that she’s reunited with her birth father and, um, just the fact that her children were identifying more with Korean culture than Danish, and-

(0:33:07) speaker_1: So-

(0:33:08) speaker_0: … wh-

(0:33:09) speaker_1: … I guess I’m not surprised that my, you know, my mother behaved that way.

(0:33:12) speaker_1: For, for me growing up, and this was another difference between, you know, m- you know, um, me and my sister is that, uh, you know, my sister at least was somewhat close to my, my mom, you know, our mom growing up and, and I wasn’t.

(0:33:26) speaker_1: And so kind of like the, the way that she’s being treated now is, or my, the way my sister’s being treated now by my mother is very, it’s a lot more consistent the way, with the way that I was kind of treated growing up.

(0:33:37) speaker_1: Um, now, I, I, I, I don’t, I, I really dislike the fact that, um, you know, my, my mother behaved the way she did about, um, you know, you know, my sister, you know, meeting my stepda- or, uh, her birth father and things like that.

(0:33:58) speaker_1: And, and ’cause I, I mean, I was, I was really happy for her and I thought it was a really cool thing and, and really interesting, and, and maybe that’s just, you know, something that, um, well, I would feel more of just because, uh, you know, my, it’s a connection that my sister and I have is, you know, the fact that we both are adoptees like that.

(0:34:14) speaker_1: Um, but, like, I, the way that my mother’s been treating her is, is in being more distant and my, you know, um, I, I feel, yeah, like it’s, it’s not new to me.

(0:34:27) speaker_1: (laughs) Like, um, since I was never very close to the Danish culture, I was never very close to her in general or be able to have a conversation with her that-

(0:34:35) speaker_0: That’s something you’re used to.

(0:34:35) speaker_1: … um, like, uh, the way that she would, she treated things was like in kind of like, um, just like that.

(0:34:41) speaker_1: (laughs) Uh, she, she would always kind of talk negatively to me or, uh, negatively about things that I would be interested in that wasn’t aligned with how she would think they should be and things like that.

(0:34:53) speaker_1: So, um, you know, and that’s, that’s definitely one of the reasons why I, I’m, I’m, I, I keep my distance from my mother especially is ’cause I just don’t feel like being criticized about how I live my life, so-

(0:35:04) speaker_0: That’s what, yeah, that’s what Mia said that your mother, um, her personality tends to be a little negative.

(0:35:12) speaker_1: Yeah, um, and, and-

(0:35:14) speaker_0: Critical maybe.

(0:35:15) speaker_1: Yeah, very critical, um, and it can be very negative without seeing any kind of like, you know, um, like, like kind of positive spin on it, as well as like, uh, she has to, like, really, I mean, like, like sometimes she should just not include her own opinion on certain things, but she just feels like she has to, like it’s almost like she can’t hold herself back on it.

(0:35:37) speaker_1:

(0:35:37) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:35:37) speaker_1: And so her opinion will be very, like, negative or insulting or, you know, anything along those lines and, um, and she just feels justified to, to be able to express it like that, um, you know, regardless of kind of who it is it seems like a lot of the time.

(0:35:54) speaker_1: And, and to be honest, it, it felt like growing up that she prioritized other Danish kids over, over me a lot of the time. So, um-

(0:36:06) speaker_0: Oh, how s- how so?

(0:36:08) speaker_1: So, (sighs) like, like if she would have her Danish friends over and the, like, these Danish, and like they would have kids over, um, she’d be just so freely giving up, away my stuff to those kids without considering that it was, it was mine.

(0:36:26) speaker_1: (laughs) Um-

(0:36:27) speaker_0: Mmm.

(0:36:28) speaker_1: Like, it’s like, “Oh,” and, like, she would just make the justification as, like, “Oh, he doesn’t play with it,” things like that.

(0:36:32) speaker_1: And it’s like, and it’s, it’s w- and then that wouldn’t, wouldn’t be true. (laughs) Um, or they would break something of mine or they would just, uh-…

(0:36:40) speaker_1: like, be rude or something like that. And then I… Like, the guy just had to, had to deal with it. Like, it’s… They would be, uh-

(0:36:48) speaker_0: Like, she didn’t have your back.

(0:36:49) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:36:50) speaker_0: Right?

(0:36:50) speaker_1: Absolutely. That was exactly it. And, um, and, and that, that’s, that’s how it was.

(0:36:57) speaker_0: You know, looking back, that’s got to be really painful. I mean, at the time, you probably didn’t, you didn’t know anything different.

(0:37:03) speaker_1: Um-

(0:37:03) speaker_0: Probably maybe thought all families were like that. (laughs) But…

(0:37:06) speaker_1: In some ways, I, I did. But then, you know, like I… And, and yeah, as I got older, I realized that that’s just… It really shouldn’t have…

(0:37:13) speaker_1: How it should have been, and it’s definitely had an impact on my life as, um, as I’ve grown up.

(0:37:19) speaker_1: Um, you know, it took a lot to become a bit more assertive on things and feel like, um, you know, my opinion actually mattered at times or, like, you know, like just, just kind of being able to stand my ground at, in certain points was, was definitely a difficult thing to overcome because of that, um, of that upbringing of just not, um, feeling like, like, like, um…

(0:37:47) speaker_1: Like a feeling like I was always in the wrong, or I was always having to give up what I, I had, you know, um, to somebody else. So…

(0:37:56) speaker_1: And, oh, and, and (laughs) and also, like, when, when the friends would come and bring me like a little gift or something, um, you know, just because they’re meeting me for the first time, uh, y- my mother would insist, you know, “Oh, he doesn’t need that.

(0:38:10) speaker_1: ” You know? “Just, just keep it.” So, like, I, I wouldn’t get to keep it.

(0:38:14) speaker_1: And so, um, so yeah, like, accepting things for myself, uh, can also be very difficult, or accepting any kind of, like, compliment or, like, um, praise-

(0:38:23) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:38:23) speaker_1: … is often very difficult for me.

(0:38:25) speaker_0: And, Thomas, this one’s a little bit similar to my upbringing too.

(0:38:30) speaker_0: Um, and, and, you know, I’ve had really difficulty with self-esteem and the, uh, the assertiveness and, you know, always, um…

(0:38:42) speaker_0: Sometimes things, uh, let things happen to me, and then afterwards, I would want to react, but it was too late, you know? (laughs) Like, I-

(0:38:50) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:38:50) speaker_0: … couldn’t react in the moment.

(0:38:51) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have, uh… Yeah.

(0:38:54) speaker_0: And, uh, and just not having the confidence that I deserved more.

(0:38:58) speaker_1: Yeah. Um, yeah. I don’t… Um, (laughs) I could think of a lot of moments where I’ve had those, where I think back and I should have…

(0:39:07) speaker_1: I, I should have stood up for myself or been more assertive or just, you know, responded differently than, than I did. And I…

(0:39:16) speaker_1: And, and I just can only think about wishing that, uh, I did versus, um, you know, of it actually happening. So, um… And, and yeah, it’s definitely been…

(0:39:27) speaker_1: As I’m sure you’re aware of kind of this lifelong struggle of trying to get it, you know, trying to find some kind of way of overcoming it, because of that reason.

(0:39:37) speaker_1: So, um…

(0:39:40) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Do you think that maybe, uh, you know, your parents, you know, they lacked in some parenting skills?

(0:39:50) speaker_0: How much do you think that’s related to being adopted and not being biological?

(0:39:58) speaker_1: (laughs) You know, so I have, I have thought about this, and I, you know, and I question that ’cause…

(0:40:05) speaker_1: So, uh, I, I think a part of it, in terms of, like, biological…

(0:40:08) speaker_1: So, like, I am biologically very different than my dad, not just from physical appearance, but, like, um, but, like, just, like, uh, like…

(0:40:18) speaker_1: I have a lot of… I had a lot of allergies growing up. Allergic to cats, um, which, you know, didn’t help because we had a cat growing up.

(0:40:27) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, like, I’m very allergic to pollen and things like that, and…

(0:40:31) speaker_0: Were you a sensitive boy?

(0:40:33) speaker_1: Um, I wasn’t necessarily sensitive, just, just a lot of allergies that kept me from wanting to be outside a lot. And so my dad-

(0:40:40) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:40:40) speaker_1: Yeah. And so my dad liked to be outside a lot, and, um, I definitely couldn’t connect with him oftentimes for that reason. And, and also that, um, like…

(0:40:50) speaker_1: Like, I have ADHD that kind of went undiagnosed until I was about 30.

(0:40:55) speaker_1: And, um, and so, like, the way that my mind worked was definitely very, very different than, than theirs.

(0:41:02) speaker_1: And my dad is a very structured, organized person, um, and things like that.

(0:41:07) speaker_1: And so when he would work on something and I would want to help him, um, he didn’t want me to because, uh, like, I, I would…

(0:41:17) speaker_1: I, I’d probably do something that he didn’t, um, like, like he wouldn’t want me to do.

(0:41:23) speaker_1: And so, uh, there are some other things too where just I think there’s some tensions and, and, and things between the relationship between my mom and my dad anyways.

(0:41:33) speaker_1: But, um, uh, I think, um, that it was a lack of, like, awareness and certain levels of ignorance that I try to have a little forgiveness for towards my parents ’cause, you know, like, nowadays, we have the internet, and it’s so much easier to kind of just do the research of, of certain things, um, and look up, like, what to kind of expect if you’re going to adopt, like, a Korean child or something.

(0:42:01) speaker_1: And, you know, then they just kind of had, uh, what they’re either given or trying to make an effort somehow to get to the library and, and do that kind of research and trust that it’s, you know, um…

(0:42:13) speaker_1: That, that they have enough information in that regard. So, um, so I think there’s a little of that, of that ignorance. But, um… But I think…

(0:42:24) speaker_1: (laughs) So I think it’s two different factors.

(0:42:27) speaker_1: From my dad, I think it was just I just was just kind of too different from him a lot of the time, and I just wasn’t mature enough for his, uh, for his…

(0:42:37) speaker_1: What he was, I think, kind of hoping for at times, um, in being able to find, uh, kind of a bond in a son in that regard.

(0:42:47) speaker_1: Um-And then, you know, with my mom, I think it was definitely, like, the whole, like, Danish culture and, and language that kind of kept me from having, like, a real relationship with her as well.

(0:42:59) speaker_1: So, um, just those factors, me… I, I don’t think actually being Korean was ever, would ever have been an actual issue. I, although (laughs) I, I think…

(0:43:11) speaker_1: I, I do think that my mother was a little racist at times, um, and made too many assumptions about just Asian cultures.

(0:43:21) speaker_1: And, um, and just like, like, like, like I said, she’s very pro-Danish and, (laughs) and so it, it didn’t seem like she really…

(0:43:29) speaker_1: She wasn’t very welcoming of, it seemed like, of other cultures a lot of time. Um, whether she’d like to-

(0:43:36) speaker_0: Did you ever get the-

(0:43:36) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Go ahead.

(0:43:38) speaker_0: Did you ever get the sense that she thought Korean culture was inferior or-

(0:43:43) speaker_1: Oh, yeah. (laughs)

(0:43:44) speaker_0: … just not, just uninteresting? (laughs)

(0:43:46) speaker_1: Uh, so I would say that, um, uh, my mother has a very…

(0:43:50) speaker_1: She feels Danish culture in general is just, like, the, the best culture in the world kind of mentality.

(0:43:56) speaker_0: Sure. Mm-hmm.

(0:43:56) speaker_1: Like, so like, um… So absolutely.

(0:43:58) speaker_1: Um, like, she, she just feels like it, like, the Korean culture wouldn’t be able to stand up to the Danish culture, and so she’d be very quick to point out all the bad things that may have happened in, in Korea’s history or something like that, but then just omitting anything that occurs in Denmark or something.

(0:44:13) speaker_1: And don’t get me wrong, I mean, Denmark, um, seems to do a very good job at a lot of things, but, uh, you know, no- nothing’s without its faults.

(0:44:21) speaker_1: So it was, it was very hard to accept her, um, justification on things in that regard, but, um, but yeah, she did feel that way, I could tell.

(0:44:32) speaker_0: Do you think she is gonna find this podcast?

(0:44:36) speaker_1: Uh, no. (laughs) Um, the, no. Uh, she…

(0:44:39) speaker_1: If she did, it would be a huge change in the way she thinks in terms of, um, wanting to listen to other people’s experiences that may not sound good, um, from her perspective.

(0:44:54) speaker_1: So, um, if this was a Danish podcast, she might, but since this is primarily about adoptees sharing their experiences and stuff, uh, I, I think it’s very unlikely.

(0:45:04) speaker_1: Not unless we actually, you know…

(0:45:06) speaker_1: And we, by me, by like me and my sister actually gave her or showed her the, the podcast, which I don’t think either one of us are gonna end up doing.

(0:45:14) speaker_1:

(0:45:14) speaker_0: You know (laughs) that, that kind of illustrates it right there, because, you know, this is adoptees sharing their experiences and your mother’s uninterested.

(0:45:22) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:45:23) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah, um, (laughs) yeah, because, because, um, with, you know, my s-… In both aspects, you know, she’s not… We’re gonna…

(0:45:33) speaker_1: We’re, we’re speaking about her in, you know, in terms of, like, the way that we kind of grew up and our experiences around her, and she is very unwilling to accept that, that she is, um…

(0:45:43) speaker_1: That, that anything that was really wrong or, like, like, she would justify her behavior or, or some way and, and seem like everything should be forgiven and, and getting over it kind of thing.

(0:45:54) speaker_1: Um, (laughs) li- like, and it doesn’t matter who, who tells her or things like that, I, (laughs) I… When I-

(0:46:03) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:46:03) speaker_1: … was in high school, um, my mother thought I had a lot of behavioral issues for some reason, and, and I really wasn’t a bad kid.

(0:46:10) speaker_1: I, I, I didn’t get into trouble or anything like that, but she thought because I didn’t…

(0:46:15) speaker_1: Um, ’cause I just was not close to her and that I just didn’t want to listen to her.

(0:46:19) speaker_1: Um, I mean, the fact that I was also a teenager in high school I, I don’t feel like kind of came, came to her mind, but she took me to a therapist.

(0:46:27) speaker_1: And, um…

(0:46:27) speaker_1: So I talked to this therapist, and after the therapist spoke to, to me and then spoke to both of us together, um, the therapist came to the conclusion that my mom was the issue, and-

(0:46:40) speaker_0: Oh. (laughs)

(0:46:41) speaker_1: And she refused to believe it, and we never went back to that therapist ever again.

(0:46:46) speaker_1: Um, like, she said that therapist was terrible, she was crazy, blah, blah. And, and so, like, like… (laughs) Um, yeah, I…

(0:46:55) speaker_1: She would be refu- she would refuse to ever believe anything and she would just feel like we were, like, uh, you know, like, saying stuff that wasn’t either true or she’d justify and thing- things like that.

(0:47:09) speaker_1: So she would never… She definitely would never find this podcast in that regard. (laughs)

(0:47:31) speaker_0: How old are they?

(0:47:32) speaker_1: Um, so my dad is 70… How old is he? Uh, he’s 72 or will be 72 this year. Yeah, he’ll be 72 this year and my, and my mom’s 81. Oh, no-

(0:47:46) speaker_0: Oh, wow, your mom’s like 10-

(0:47:47) speaker_1: Yeah, so she’s nine-

(0:47:48) speaker_0: … 10 years-

(0:47:49) speaker_1: … nine years older actually. So she’s-

(0:47:50) speaker_0: Nine years older than your dad, okay.

(0:47:52) speaker_1: Yeah. So, um-

(0:47:53) speaker_0: So your mother’s 81. Um, do you ever think about, you know, when they’re not here anymore?

(0:48:03) speaker_0: Um, do you, do you have a need to want to connect with them or to, to he- heal the relationship in any way before they die or-

(0:48:15) speaker_1: So-

(0:48:15) speaker_0: Have you thought about that?

(0:48:16) speaker_1: … I have, um, and, and it, it always comes to a somewhat disappointing conclusion for myself, and that’s, um, no.

(0:48:26) speaker_1: I, I, I, I often think about how, how will I feel and, um, you know, how will I feel and, and will I regret anything for not being as close to them?

(0:48:40) speaker_1: And, and, and I don’t want to sound like I was ever, like, unappreciative or, or things like that, because I, you know, I do think back and, and I know my parents definitely provided a-…

(0:48:50) speaker_1: um, as best I could and things like that. But, you know, I still was never able to develop a close relationship with them.

(0:48:58) speaker_1: And although I made efforts to try and at least talk to them at the very minimum of once a week, I, I, I still struggle to do that. Um, um-

(0:49:10) speaker_0: Do you love them?

(0:49:11) speaker_1: I, I, I mean, as parents, yes. Um, I, I, you know, I care for their wellbeing and I, I want them to be healthy.

(0:49:17) speaker_1: I don’t want anything to happen to them, but, you know, when they’re gone, um, I, I feel like that, (sighs) like I, I, I don’t…

(0:49:29) speaker_1: I’ll definitely miss them. I, I don’t, uh, they’ll definitely be there.

(0:49:34) speaker_1: I, I, I’ll miss them, but in terms of like any kind of like, like specific thing in terms of like relationship or closeness that I like would never be able to get from like somewhere else or, or any kind of closeness, um, that is not something that, uh, I, I think I, I know I won’t miss and I don’t feel I, I, I miss it now.

(0:49:57) speaker_1: I think, uh, uh, ’cause it’s, if I had a good relationship or I had a closer relationship with them, that’d be okay, but I don’t really know how, how much I, I really desire that at this point in my life anymore either.

(0:50:13) speaker_1: Um, I, I, I, I mean, I do try and make an effort at times to at least make it so that, you know, I’ve, ’cause I have two kids.

(0:50:21) speaker_1: Um, you know, I have a nine-year-old and a, and a six-year-old, and I try and make sure that they both, you know, are familiar and are able to spend time with, you know, my parents.

(0:50:31) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays) Um, but, like, um, like I, I don’t think I’ll ever, I’ll have that relationship and, and when, when they’re gone, I, I will, like I said, I’ll miss them and I’ll have memories, but (sighs) I don’t think I’m gonna regret or, you know, ever had wished that I, I, I developed a closer relationship at the end.

(0:50:54) speaker_1:

(0:50:54) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays) Uh, wondering about, as you’ve gotten older now, if the desire to find your first family, if that’s become stronger.

(0:51:11) speaker_1: Um, I would say a little bit.

(0:51:14) speaker_1: Um, I, I, I think it especially became more like, like something that was, um, more on my mind actually after I had, uh, my first child, um, a, a daughter.

(0:51:26) speaker_1: And I, and, and I think it’s because, and I actually kind of remember the, this moment very clearly from the day she was born and I was first holding her that I realized that this is really the first time I’ve seen anybody look like me biologically, right?

(0:51:42) speaker_1: So, um, it kind of like made me feel like, uh, like, where, you know, where did my parents look like or, you know, where, where did I get some more of my, like, traits from potentially.

(0:51:57) speaker_1: And so like, um, I did things that kind of indirectly, uh, pursued that in ways like doing, um, genetic, you know, DNA testing and seeing what kind of DNA background I have and, um, and things like that.

(0:52:13) speaker_1: Um, but I would say that especially once I hit 40 that it started becoming more of, um, this desire to kind of like, like maybe it’s actually been more of, um, of a gap in my life than I realized and that e- you know, maybe I do need to kind of fulfill that in some way, um, to kind of find out.

(0:52:37) speaker_1: And, and, and I think mentally I’m just trying to prepare myself for different kind of outcomes (laughs) of that as well.

(0:52:46) speaker_0: Of not being able to?

(0:52:48) speaker_1: Uh, uh, yeah.

(0:52:48) speaker_1: I mean, like if, if, you know, trying to pursue, you know, my birth parents or any kind of, you know, family in Korea, what kind of outcomes might come out of it, you know?

(0:53:00) speaker_1: If I never, if nothing comes out of it or if I do end up meeting, you know, one of them or h- finding out what kind of people they are or, um, you know, you know, things like that, I, I guess like just trying to mentally prepare myself for certain things in that regard.

(0:53:21) speaker_1:

(0:53:21) speaker_0: You know, it’s kind of interesting because, um, you know, having like very little knowledge about the people you’ve come from, um, and, and, and seeing how, in your adoptive family, how different you are, um, from them, um, and sort of that nature versus nurture thing.

(0:53:45) speaker_0: And then with your children, um, in a way, the next generation is kind of a window into your past.

(0:53:55) speaker_1: It… Yeah. And actually kind of is, and that’s, um… I kind of like the way you, you, you, um, described that ’cause it’s…

(0:54:05) speaker_1: I, I wouldn’t say, um, I directly thought of it that way, but, um, it really is.

(0:54:10) speaker_1: When I look at kind of both my kids and how they’re growing up and, and, you know, me being their father versus like my dad, (laughs) um, you know, I, I think I, I see a, a different way that they are growing up with, you know, parents that look similar to them and can actually see kind of where they’re coming from.

(0:54:30) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, it, it’s interesting ’cause like my, my kids have never really asked why I don’t look like my parents, you know?

(0:54:42) speaker_1: Um, (laughs) i- i- and like they’ve, they’ve really never, um, talked about it.

(0:54:48) speaker_1: I, I think my daughter finally did in our last visit over the summer, uh, last summer, and she was eight…. no, actually, no she was nine at the time.

(0:54:57) speaker_1: I’m sorry, um, ’cause she turns, um, she turns 10 this year.

(0:55:02) speaker_1: Um, that (laughs) that she, um, you know, that she asked that question again, and so she, you know, like, I re- I didn’t realize that she didn’t really fully understand what it meant to be adopted, um, at the time.

(0:55:15) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah, I mean, I kinda see how maybe the interaction woulda been quite a bit different since my kids are being exposed more to Korean culture than definitely I ever was.

(0:55:27) speaker_1: Um, they can s- they can’t speak Korean fluently, um, really unfortunately, but, um, they can speak more than I can (laughs) and they understand more of it than I can.

(0:55:38) speaker_1: Um, and they’ve really, really, you know, y- you know, taking, taken to it as well ’cause they have the exposure to, you know, my m- my wife’s mother who is Korean and, um, and, and so, y- yeah.

(0:55:56) speaker_1: I, I, I’ve realized that, you know, this i- is very different than the way I was brought up and this could’ve been a kind of, I guess, uh, possible way, um, of me growing up if I had been around people that were more like me.

(0:56:14) speaker_1: (laughs) Or, you know…

(0:56:15) speaker_0: So your… Yeah.

(0:56:16) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:56:16) speaker_0: So Thomas, your kids are Asian, uh, three-quarters anyway.

(0:56:20) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:56:21) speaker_0: Um, but they probably present as Asian, right? Full Asian perhaps?

(0:56:25) speaker_1: Uh, um, so you c- I think you can kinda tell that they’re still mixed, but, um, but they do identify as being, um, Asian and Korean.

(0:56:36) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:56:37) speaker_1: Um…

(0:56:38) speaker_0: Does that bring you kind of s- a, a, a kind of joy in a way, that they do-

(0:56:43) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:56:44) speaker_0: … have kind of a strong identification-

(0:56:47) speaker_1: Uh-

(0:56:47) speaker_0: … with being Korean?

(0:56:49) speaker_1: Actually, yeah, I actually do feel really happy that they are…

(0:56:52) speaker_1: They can identify with that, and, and to be honest, I think more than that I’m just glad that they feel like they belong somewhere, they don’t feel like, like they’re an outcast or they don’t…

(0:57:02) speaker_1: Like they’re having a hard time fitting in anywhere.

(0:57:07) speaker_1: Um, and that makes actually me really, um, really happy, and that they aren’t afraid to tell people that they are from Korea or that they are Korean.

(0:57:18) speaker_1: Um, i- it…

(0:57:19) speaker_1: ‘Cause to be honest, you know, growing up even though when I was filling out forms and they would ask for k- you know, some race or things like that, that, you know, I would just always put Asian of course, or some, you know, something along those lines because that’s physically what I am, but I always felt like, um, like I, like I was…

(0:57:41) speaker_1: It d- it never, like, felt right in a way, if that makes sense. Um-

(0:57:45) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:57:46) speaker_1: … like, ’cause see I’m… I mean, I, I’m an American, um, just ’cause I physically-

(0:57:51) speaker_0: Culturally you f-

(0:57:51) speaker_1: … appear to be Korean.

(0:57:52) speaker_0: Culturally you felt-

(0:57:52) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:57:52) speaker_0: You felt white probably.

(0:57:54) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, yeah, exactly. And so, um…

(0:57:56) speaker_1: A- and so, you know, like, e- even though I knew I physically stood out a lot of the time when I was around, you know, being around, you know, my friends who were majority of ’em were all white, um, I, I never felt like, uh, like I was different in that regard.

(0:58:12) speaker_1: So, um, but, but I can tell like my kids, they’re not afraid to, you know, really just a lot more be themselves and, um, uh, you feel like, like kind of like adopted, you know, that like they are…

(0:58:31) speaker_1: They feel very part of like, you know, Korean and, you know, American culture in that regard. So…

(0:58:38) speaker_0: Do you ever feel imposter syndrome as a, a Asian dad raising-

(0:58:44) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:58:45) speaker_0: … your daughters? Like-

(0:58:46) speaker_1: (laughs) Yeah. Um, a- actually yes I do. Um, I think if I, like… If I go to like the…

(0:58:54) speaker_1: If I were to go to like a Korean store without my wife or her family, um, I would feel… I would feel a lot more awkward and anxious. Um, yeah.

(0:59:08) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, I, I don’t think I ever, ever really told my wife this but like, uh, I, I, I think I told her a little bit about how I don’t really feel like I ever belong in those types of places, um, even when I’m, you know, with her but it feels less stressful of it…

(0:59:24) speaker_1: At least with her going to like H Marts and, and things like that. But, um, but if I’m like…

(0:59:31) speaker_1: Like if I’m with my kids somewhere, um, whether it be like a museum or some kind of like activity center or things like that and, and I see like let’s say like another Korean family or just like another Asian family in general, um, I, I, I, I feel like I, I…

(0:59:50) speaker_1: Yeah. I just… Like if they have kind of any imp- if they were to come over a- and try and like, um, connect with me in some way like I, I just…

(1:00:02) speaker_1: Like I feel like, like I would totally blow it (laughs) and, and like, you know, not… I shouldn’t be there or sh- you know, don’t belong, you know.

(1:00:13) speaker_1: So, um, so when I do go out with them it kind of like… I get that sense like if, if people are looking at me in that way.

(1:00:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Do you guys… Did, did you do like a doljanshi?

(1:00:25) speaker_0: Do you guys do like, you know, the one year birthday or do you celebrate any of the Korean, uh, holidays in your home?

(1:00:33) speaker_1: Uh, yeah. So we did, we did that, um, where, you know, like the kids will kind of like when they’re…

(1:00:40) speaker_1: when they were one they, you know, picked out what their… You know, what they were… might end up being, right?

(1:00:46) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:00:46) speaker_1: The object and stuff, and so um, they did that. They, they got their like… Um, you know, my daughter got her like little hanbok and um, my son got…

(1:00:56) speaker_1: I, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s… I can’t remember what the equi- equivalent of it is for the males but he… You know, he got one of those as well.

(1:01:02) speaker_1: Um-And, and so, you know, they, they each have one. Um, you know, and things like that, so… An- and (laughs) um, and again, during those…

(1:01:15) speaker_1: I mean, I, I enjoyed the, I, I guess, you know, like th- that kind of ritual and that, you know, that, that day very much.

(1:01:21) speaker_1: I, I, you know, had a lot of fun. You know, it was fun to see the kids do that. But, um-

(1:01:26) speaker_0: Did they bow to you guys? Are they doing that?

(1:01:29) speaker_1: Uh, no. They don’t, they don’t do that, though. No.

(1:01:32) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:01:33) speaker_1: I did feel very much like an outsider, though (laughs). Um, when, when I was part of those, like w- on those days, um…

(1:01:40) speaker_0: With the rituals and things, you mean?

(1:01:41) speaker_1: Yeah. Like, ’cause I, I mean, I definitely knew… I had no idea what was going on, things like that. Um, so, um, so I, I don’t know.

(1:01:50) speaker_0: Or even the, even the food, right?

(1:01:52) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I love the food either way. But, um… And I (laughs), I definitely accepted that more than anything else. But, um, but yeah.

(1:02:00) speaker_1: E- just knowing how to eat it and the way that, you know, m- my wife kind of initially laughed at me ’cause how I, how I would use a chopsticks and spoon to eat.

(1:02:10) speaker_1: Um (laughs), uh, like that, like that was very, very different to me. And then just the way that like I, I used utensils was, um-

(1:02:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:02:21) speaker_1: … chikudel is definitely very American (laughs). Um…

(1:02:25) speaker_0: Well, and maybe kind of European, right? Because Mia was saying that, you know, holding the knife and the-

(1:02:32) speaker_1: Well, see… (laughs)

(1:02:32) speaker_0: … fork (laughs)-

(1:02:33) speaker_1: And, a- well, so that’s the funny part too is that that’s the difference where I like had growing up as well, is that I, I was always fine with either just a fork or using my hands (laughs).

(1:02:43) speaker_1: Um, so like, uh, I, I know my family grew up that way. But yeah. I remember hearing that in podcasts and, and thinking like, I…

(1:02:53) speaker_1: That’s one area that when we grew up that like I, I, I wasn’t, um, that never like, uh, was an issue for me.

(1:03:00) speaker_1: So, ’cause like I said, I grew up very, a lot more American than the rest of my family, you know, with them being more Da- Danish or European.

(1:03:10) speaker_1: Um, and me just being a lot more American that I… Uh, yeah.

(1:03:13) speaker_1: Eating with my hands and things like that was just kind of second nature (laughs) in that regard, so…

(1:03:19) speaker_0: Okay. What is it like having a Korean, uh, mother-in-law?

(1:03:25) speaker_1: Um, it’s, it’s kind of nice. I actually kind of… I like it. I actually very much like my mother-in-law.

(1:03:32) speaker_1: Um, and I, I think she likes having a son-in-law that’s Korean even if she knows that I’m not like familiar with the culture or the language because, um…

(1:03:43) speaker_1: Like, she loves to buy me clothes.

(1:03:45) speaker_1: Like they used to live in Korea ’cause, you know, um, my father-in-law’s in the military and they were stationed at an army base in Korea.

(1:03:53) speaker_1: Um, and when they were there, like every Christmas and, and birthday, I would always receive all these clothes.

(1:03:59) speaker_1: And, and what was kind of cool for me was that they actually fit ’cause (laughs) clothes n- you know, u- usually are very difficult to find for, for me (laughs).

(1:04:07) speaker_1:

(1:04:07) speaker_0: Oh, yeah.

(1:04:09) speaker_1: Yeah. And s- so the fact she’d send them and they would be like this perfect fit for me, um, was very, was very, uh, nice.

(1:04:17) speaker_1: It felt good to actually be able to fit clothes, um, nicely and, and not feel like they’re way too big without having to go to like a kid size (laughs).

(1:04:27) speaker_1: So, um…

(1:04:29) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:04:30) speaker_1: And, and, um, and the, and the fact that she really likes trying to show me and like introduce me to things as well ’cause, you know, she’s obviously familiar with the my situation at that point, um, but like, you know, foods and, and certain cultural aspects as well.

(1:04:47) speaker_1: So, you know, um… So I actually, actually really enjoy it. I feel like I’ve been able to connect in that way pretty well.

(1:04:53) speaker_0: Does she… Do you feel like in a way she acts like… I mean, obviously she’s a member of your family now. But, um, in a way like a proxy mom for-

(1:05:06) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:05:06) speaker_0: … uh, um, like having a Korean mom?

(1:05:08) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, I, I think, um, in some ways, yes. Y- you know, she, um… You know, she likes to make sure that like whenever…

(1:05:16) speaker_1: Like, uh, I would say definitely more than, than kind of how I grew up where, you know, whenever we go to visit, um, she likes to make sure that I, I’m always having something to eat and, um, you know, trying something that she’s cooking or, you know, making sure that I always have a pair of slippers in the house to wear (laughs).

(1:05:35) speaker_1: Um, you know.

(1:05:36) speaker_1: Uh, so sh- she’s always made me feel ve- feel, feel very welcome and it’s definitely been very appreciated to where, you know, like I- I’ve never felt like, um, like really like an outsider, um, in her house for that reason.

(1:05:51) speaker_1: Uh, you know, e- even though like she speaks English, she doesn’t always speak it like, like, y- you know, extremely well.

(1:05:58) speaker_1: I mean, she definitely can speak it fine, just, um, there’s certain ways, you know, like I was saying about being able to express herself in certain ways that, um, that she can’t all the time.

(1:06:10) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah. It, it… And it…

(1:06:14) speaker_1: I think it also makes me feel good that she is able to, uh, get the kids involved with a lot of the Korean stuff like, um, on like New Year’s or…

(1:06:26) speaker_1: It’s New Year’s? Yeah. New Year’s, they make a whole bunch of like, um, uh, like, um, (laughs) uh, mandoo.

(1:06:36) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(1:06:36) speaker_1: And, um, you know, like how (laughs)…

(1:06:39) speaker_1: You know, how they would look and stuff like that would kind of like judge how like, um, you know, like if the child was going to grow up or something.

(1:06:47) speaker_1: And so, making like really nice looking mandoo, you know, is better than if they’re like kind of like sloppily put together.

(1:06:53) speaker_1: And so, like, you know, my daughter helped and so did my son trying to put together a lot of mandoo on like New Year’s and then eating the, and eating it and things like that.

(1:07:02) speaker_1: So, like, there’s a lot of like, I think traditional and cultural aspects that she introduces, um, to my kids that actually makes, like, makes me really happy that they can be, um-…

(1:07:14) speaker_1: more familiar with that part of their, uh, you know, their, their part of their history and their life.

(1:07:19) speaker_0: Oh. So I don’t know this. So how does that, how does that work with the mandu?

(1:07:25) speaker_1: Um-

(1:07:26) speaker_0: Like if-

(1:07:26) speaker_1: (laughs) Yeah. So I ha- I ca- Um, I’m not, I can’t remember s- exactly how it was supposed to work. This is what my wife told me. But like, um…

(1:07:34) speaker_1: And this, I don’t know if this is just traditional in her family or not, but, um, she said that, you know, on, on like, sometime after like New Year’s Day or something like that, they would, they would all get together and they’d start making the mandu.

(1:07:44) speaker_1: And, um, and the, the better the, the mandu would look from the, the children, you know, the better looking the kids would grow up to be. (laughs)

(1:07:55) speaker_0: Oh. So if they had more beautiful looking mandu-

(1:07:58) speaker_1: Yes.

(1:07:58) speaker_0: … that they would themselves be-

(1:08:01) speaker_1: More.

(1:08:01) speaker_0: … very attractive.

(1:08:02) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. And, and you know, of course, it’s not, it’s not necessarily true or anything, it’s just, um, it’s just kind of funny.

(1:08:09) speaker_0: Like a f-

(1:08:10) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:08:12) speaker_0: L- like a folktale or wives tale or whatever.

(1:08:15) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:08:15) speaker_0: Folk wives. I don’t know, whatever that is. Yeah.

(1:08:16) speaker_1: But, yeah, exactly.

(1:08:17) speaker_1: I mean, s- similar to, you know, the kids picking out that object, you know, if that’s what they’re gonna grow up to be as profession, right?

(1:08:22) speaker_1: You know, it’s just, um, that’s the, that is, uh, the case, so, mm-hmm.

(1:08:27) speaker_0: What did your kids pick out?

(1:08:28) speaker_1: So my, um, my daughter picked a stethoscope and my son picked a ball. Um…

(1:08:36) speaker_0: Wow. What did you think of that? Were you pleased?

(1:08:39) speaker_1: Um, yeah. I mean, honestly, whatever they picked I would have been happy about.

(1:08:43) speaker_1: But like, um, I, I, ’cause I, I, I know the reason why that, you know, my daugh- daughter probably picked the stethoscope is because it just looked the most interesting out of the, the group.

(1:08:53) speaker_1: So but, um-

(1:08:54) speaker_0: Did you put it close?

(1:08:55) speaker_1: I mean, yeah.

(1:08:55) speaker_0: Did you put it closer to her? (laughs)

(1:08:57) speaker_1: (laughs) I, I think my, my, um, my mother-in-law actually did.

(1:09:01) speaker_1: But, um, I, (laughs) I, I, I, like I, it was just in the center and I can’t recall specifically the order they were in, but I know that she had a ball, a stethoscope, and a, and she had one other thing that I can’t quite remember what it was.

(1:09:14) speaker_1: But, um-

(1:09:14) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:09:14) speaker_1: … I know she went for the stethoscope. And my son had kind of a similar thing, um, with a, with a ball and stethoscope.

(1:09:19) speaker_1: And I, like I said, I can’t remember what the other one was.

(1:09:22) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:09:22) speaker_1: But, um, (laughs) but yeah, uh, it was, it was exciting if it turns out to be true. But, um, if not, you know, it’s (laughs) it’s just for fun either way.

(1:09:36) speaker_1: But, um, e- yeah. I, it’s just, yeah, kind of like a tradition that, um, and, uh, superstition, I think. I think there’s this…

(1:09:50) speaker_1: I, I think, um, culturally, and I, I don’t know this for certain, but it just seems like there’s a lot of kind of superstition when it comes to, um, like traditional Korean stuff a lot of the time.

(1:10:01) speaker_1: So… (laughs)

(1:10:02) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:10:03) speaker_1: Um, a lot of the cooking that, um, that my, my mother-in-law will do say, will say like, certain things that just kind of you know aren’t true, but this is kind of the belief she has.

(1:10:12) speaker_1: And that’s, um, like, uh, eating, eating like a lot of like pork fat is, is good to kind of help cleanse, (laughs) cleanse, um, your body after you’ve done something like really dirty, like working in something dirty all day.

(1:10:24) speaker_1: So, um-

(1:10:26) speaker_0: Oh.

(1:10:27) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(1:10:27) speaker_0: Oh, having pork fat?

(1:10:28) speaker_1: Yeah. Like, something that’s like, like can be like, like, uh…

(1:10:32) speaker_0: Like a cleanse?

(1:10:32) speaker_1: I recall… Yeah. Like, she well, so like, to eat it for dinner. So like, I, I remember like I was, I was working on something at their house.

(1:10:40) speaker_1: And, and she made me this kind of like, this soup that was very like heavy and like pork fat and things like that.

(1:10:46) speaker_1: And, um, and my wife told me, like m- my, uh, well, my mother-in-law said it in Korean and my, my wife interpreted, like translated for me.

(1:10:52) speaker_1: And that was, and that’s kind of what she told me. And I was like, “Huh. Interesting.” So, (laughs) um, uh, it tasted good, so it was fine.

(1:11:01) speaker_1: But just like, it, it just, it kind of made me realize there seems to be a lot of stoo- superstition behind some of their beliefs in that regard.

(1:11:07) speaker_1: Or, you know, just kind of, um, they’re, they believe in certain things that, um, that just, you know, scientifically aren’t, aren’t really true for something.

(1:11:17) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:11:18) speaker_0: I find it, um, interesting with the, the background that you, your background that you, um, described.

(1:11:26) speaker_0: And that you, um, you married a woman who is culturally, uh, Korean.

(1:11:34) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(1:11:34) speaker_0: Um, was that… Were you drawn? Was that one of the reasons you were…

(1:11:39) speaker_0: I mean, obviously, you know, to, to, you know, you were drawn- you were attracted to your wife.

(1:11:45) speaker_0: But was it that also kind of like a bonus or something that really you, um, you, you looked for in-

(1:11:54) speaker_1: Um…

(1:11:54) speaker_0: … a partner?

(1:11:55) speaker_1: Y- So no. Actually like, it was definitely kind of more of a bonus.

(1:12:01) speaker_1: Um, so the way that me and my wife met or the way that, um, her and I met was, um, it was actually on eHarmony.

(1:12:11) speaker_1: And, uh, how she wrote about herself and, and things kind of was the first appeal.

(1:12:18) speaker_1: Um, and then, you know, meeting her and, and finding out more about her background stuff just kind of made it, you know, that much more appealing and more interesting.

(1:12:29) speaker_1: Um, and the fact that she was-

(1:12:33) speaker_0: Did you know, did you know she was half Korean at first?

(1:12:36) speaker_1: Um, I, I, I, I did, and that was for kind of mainly like in terms of like her picture.

(1:12:43) speaker_1: I didn’t know she like s- spoke it fluently, um, and that she was like so connected to the Korean culture that much, um, until we actually like got to know each other a bit more.

(1:12:54) speaker_1: So, so initially, no, I di- I didn’t, I, um, I didn’t actually know that.

(1:12:58) speaker_0: I wonder if… Was she looking for a Korean husband?

(1:13:05) speaker_1: So what she told me was no. Um, and, and she was on eHarmony because her sister made her account for her, I guess.

(1:13:13) speaker_1: And, um, and so she wasn’t actually like actively looking in that regard, but just kind of… She went on some dates and stuff like that.

(1:13:19) speaker_1: But I don’t think like…… to, uh, like, physical appearance or, like, you know, like, race mattered to, to her that much.

(1:13:26) speaker_1: Um, I, I think for her mom and, like, maybe, like, her, um, you know, her mom’s friends and family, like, they were hoping to, for somebody to be Korean, I think.

(1:13:35) speaker_1:

(1:13:35) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:13:36) speaker_1: And I… (laughs) Um, and so, um, and so I think in that regard, there was some influence there.

(1:13:42) speaker_1: But, uh, y- you know, otherwise, I don’t think my s- my wife was actually actively looking for, like, like, they would like…

(1:13:50) speaker_1: Or say that being Korean, I think, was also a bonus for her, for me looking it, um, and not necessarily being the part of being Korean, so…

(1:13:59) speaker_0: Do you think she understands, um, the adoption part or do you think that’s hard, you know, not having that lived experience?

(1:14:09) speaker_1: I think it can be hard for her to, um, understand at times. It’s not to say she doesn’t, you know, try or things like that.

(1:14:16) speaker_1: But, um, you know, if I try to express to her some of the things that I mentioned, um, today about kind of always feeling like an outsider (laughs) eh, growing up, that I think she can under- like, she can understand the, the concept of feeling like an outsider.

(1:14:29) speaker_1: But, you know, it’s definitely something that she is never had to experience of, of feeling like an outsider i- within her own family and the people there are supposed to be the closest to you.

(1:14:38) speaker_1: So, um, so I, so I think there’s definitely some, you know, misunderstandings when it comes to that and, like, uh, or, uh, you know, sometimes understanding the, the actual, like, scope or impact that really has on somebody, y- you know, like, especially a child growing up, um, and kind of what takes some time to just kind of get over certain things like that.

(1:15:04) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah, I, you know, she, she’s, uh, she’s aware of it, you know, I’ve shared these things with her, of course, and, and, um, and so she tries to understand.

(1:15:17) speaker_1: But I, yeah, I don’t think she’ll ever truly understand or be able to really empathize, uh, kind of that, uh, those experiences or feelings that I have at times about it.

(1:15:28) speaker_1:

(1:15:29) speaker_0: So Thomas, uh, you know, uh, there’s only, uh, a, a very small number, maybe a few 100 per year, uh, adoptions from Korea today.

(1:15:43) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(1:15:43) speaker_0: And in the future, uh, adoptions from South Korea may, may stop all together. Um-

(1:15:51) speaker_1: Oh, I didn’t know that.

(1:15:53) speaker_0: Uh, it, there’s, there’s an investigation going, uh, right now by the, uh, a state, uh, uh, body, um, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is investigating the adoption industry, um, uh, for illegalities and, um-

(1:16:15) speaker_1: Oh.

(1:16:16) speaker_0: …

(1:16:16) speaker_0: falsifying paperwork or, uh, the fact that y- your paperwork may have, uh, you may have come with, uh, an orphan hojek, which is like an orphan, you know, stating that you are an orphan, head of your household, in order, um, for the, uh, for the adoption paperwork.

(1:16:38) speaker_0: But-

(1:16:39) speaker_1: Hmm.

(1:16:39) speaker_0: … in reality you may, both of your parents may be living.

(1:16:43) speaker_1: Okay.

(1:16:45) speaker_0: So technically, you’re not an orphan, but a paper orphan.

(1:16:48) speaker_1: Right.

(1:16:49) speaker_0: And so they’re looking at that, uh, right now, and, you know, there is the, uh, speculation that if, uh, what, you know, if the decision, uh, could render the adoption industry, uh, to be, uh, to close it down.

(1:17:10) speaker_0: Um-

(1:17:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(1:17:12) speaker_0: How do you feel about adoptions from Korea? Do you think they should still continue? Do you have a position or… (laughs)

(1:17:19) speaker_1: (laughs) So I remember, um, I think I saw this, like, documentary a long time ago, um, about s- you know, um, s- how some of the adoptions occurred in Korea back in, like, the ’80s, like, when I was adopted.

(1:17:36) speaker_1: And that was like, uh, like, you know, like I remember reading about how, um, that they, like, advertise almost like, you know, um, Korean kids, you know, at, you know, for adoption and things like that.

(1:17:51) speaker_1: And, um, an- and to be honest, like, I, I, I guess I wouldn’t be against adoption if it was, if it was done more thoroughly and, and I think more, um, thoughtfully.

(1:18:05) speaker_1: I, I feel like, uh, like, uh, like, I remember my mother telling me and she tells this, uh, like, almost like she feels, like, proud of it, um, is that technically, I guess, they weren’t supposed to actually, like, kids or parents shouldn’t have more than, like, 40 years between, like, the age of the child and, like, the parent or, um, or it’s, it’s even something less than that.

(1:18:30) speaker_1: But basically, my mom was out, technically outside of that, that limit where, uh-

(1:18:35) speaker_0: Oh, sure.

(1:18:35) speaker_1: … where I shouldn’t have actually been adopted by, by, uh, by that, by her and my dad because she was, she was already, like, 40, 41.

(1:18:44) speaker_0: She would be considered too old. Yeah.

(1:18:45) speaker_1: Yeah. And so they allowed it. Anyways, um, and, and she’s, she…

(1:18:49) speaker_1: I remember her telling me this, um, on more than one occasion and, and even to, like, other people.

(1:18:55) speaker_1: Like, said she was very proud of it because they had already adopted my sister, they’ve had said she was doing such a great job with it, blah, blah.

(1:19:02) speaker_1: And, um, and, and sure, maybe.

(1:19:04) speaker_1: But I don’t know, I- (sighs) like I said, this adoption, um, although I’m very happy with who I am and, and how things have ultimately turned out and things like that, but, um, there’s a lot of stuff that had to, like, you know, that I had to, like, get over and, um, that I feel like wouldn’t have had to be experienced quite as much if, um, I, I wouldn’t have been adopted.

(1:19:28) speaker_1: But, you know, that’s-I, there, I think there’s a lot more to that in that regard, but, uh, or, you know, there’s more a lot, there’s a lot more to that.

(1:19:36) speaker_1: Just what, you know, what I mean when I say that.

(1:19:39) speaker_1: But, um, like (sighs) I, I don’t like how, how easy it w- it seemed to be and how shady it was that where I know I don’t really agree with it.

(1:19:52) speaker_0: Well, um, yeah, thank you for being so honest. Um, takes a lot of courage (laughs) to-

(1:20:01) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:20:02) speaker_0: … you know, just talk about your life and, um, and so in, with so much, uh, you know, private details. So I thank you, thank you very much. Um-

(1:20:13) speaker_1: Of course.

(1:20:15) speaker_0: Do you have plans to go to Korea and do you think that you’ll overcome your fear?

(1:20:19) speaker_1: Um, (sighs) I can’t guarantee I’ll overcome my fear, but I, I would like to introduce Korea to my, my kids one day, and I, I do, would like to be a part of it.

(1:20:29) speaker_1: Um, so, like, I think regardless that eventually Korea would probably be a trip that we’ll make, um, and it, it’d be something that I just have to get over (laughs) kind of thing, so.

(1:20:41) speaker_1:

(1:20:43) speaker_0: Okay. Well, best of luck to you, Thomas.

(1:20:47) speaker_1: Thank you.

(1:20:47) speaker_0: Um, thank you so much. (instrumental music plays) Thank you, Thomas, for trusting me with your story. Until next time, I’m Kaomi Lee.

(1:21:31) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays)

Mia Haessly, 44, is a mother and adopted Korean-American who has reunited with her Korean biological father. And while introducing her family to him and seeing her children connect with Korea in a way she never had has been meaningful, the reunion has presented new challenges. Besides the language and cultural barriers, there is the physical distance between Wisconsin (USA) and Korea.  And Haessly’s adoptive parents have at times struggled with accepting that her Korean father is back in the picture, especially her Danish mother. 

Audio available on Dec. 22, 2023.

Helen Noh, PhD., is retiring next year after four decades working in child welfare in Korea, first as an adoption social worker to now a professor of social work, training generations of students to make an imprint on improving the lives of children and families. Noh, 64, has become a leading academic voice in Korea on changing policies regarding adoption in Korea. She talks with Adapted Podcast about her career, some observations working at Holt Korea, the problem with proxy adoptions as well as results of a study she and others conducted for the Korean Human Rights Commission, which found that a third of respondents adopted overseas were abused in their adoptive homes. 

Audio available Dec. 8, 2023.