I sit down with Alicia Soon Hershey, 41, a Korean transnational adoptee now living in Barcelona. Soon Hershey was the very first adoptee interviewed on the podcast back in 2016 and our conversation book-ends the podcast in the 165th episode (!). We get a chance to hear how she has evolved in the past eight years and her outlook for life now that she is a mother herself.

Audio available Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 7 am CST.

Transcript by AI.

(0:00:05) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast. This is Season 7, Episode 26, and it’s the 165th episode, and it all starts now.

(0:00:17) speaker_0: This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees. Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption.

(0:00:30) speaker_0: I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.

(0:00:34) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families, and society that only wants a feel-good story.

(0:00:46) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.

(0:00:52) speaker_1: I don’t want that to be the thing that I’m talking about to my child at age 70, or that I’m, uh, in terms of what is the definition, what is the representation of the life that I’ve led.

(0:01:03) speaker_1:

(0:01:03) speaker_0: This next episode is a conversation with Alicia Soon Hershey.

(0:01:07) speaker_0: It’s a bookend of sorts, as Alicia was the first adoptee interview on Adapted Podcast back in 2016.

(0:01:16) speaker_0: I remember lugging up my recorder up many stairs in the Nokseon-byeong neighborhood in Seoul to Alicia’s apartment, only to hear a devastating story of pain, loss, and so many life experiences that seemed unfair and unjust.

(0:01:34) speaker_0: Fast-forward eight years, and I caught up with Alicia, who is now living in Spain.

(0:01:40) speaker_0: You might hear the sound waffle in and out a bit because of internet connections, but the stories shared are consistently all heart. Here’s Alicia.

(0:01:51) speaker_1: Hi. I am… I go by Alicia Soon, or Alicia Soon Hershey now, professionally. And I am an English teacher now living in Barcelona, Spain.

(0:01:51) speaker_1: Um, grew up in rural Pennsylvania, adopted by Mennonites, born in Busan.

(0:02:06) speaker_1: I was in the mid- the 1985, class of 1985 (laughs) in terms of, um, adoptee imports, and I was lucky enough to be adopted with my biological sister. We…

(0:02:29) speaker_1: Yeah, long story. Yeah, I don’t know. Uh, h- what else? Should I bring us up to today, or do you want more information about my adoptee

(0:02:36) speaker_2: Yeah. Yeah. So, so tell us, uh, how old you are today.

(0:02:39) speaker_1: Okay.

(0:02:39) speaker_0: Um-

(0:02:40) speaker_1: I’m-

(0:02:40) speaker_0: … and what your pronouns are-

(0:02:42) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:02:42) speaker_0: I don’t know if I asked you that before, but-

(0:02:43) speaker_1: Oh yeah, I’m 41 now. My pronouns are she and her, and they always have been. I think I missed that that is a thing now that people, um-

(0:02:53) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:02:54) speaker_1: … declare, which I love because I live in Spain, and you know, I don’t, I don’t think that people ask that, which is yet, you know? Uh-

(0:03:02) speaker_0: True.

(0:03:02) speaker_1: … or people make it well-known bec- with the adjectives they use to describe themselves. So mine are still feminine, and, um, yeah. I am 40 now.

(0:03:12) speaker_1: I’m mother of one, a young lady named Ruby Sun. Um, she has an Italian last name, because she has an Italian dad, and we are living here in Barcelona.

(0:03:26) speaker_1: What else? Um, it’s very interesting to be a mom, and also an, um, Asian American mom in a very white country.

(0:03:36) speaker_1: Um, I do feel sometimes that I’ve gone back in time to 1980s rural Pennsylvania (laughs) in terms of, uh, all Asians being Chinese and in terms of like, that’s the perception I mean, not that all Asians are Chinese, but just like the word for Asians is Chinese, but I get asked every day if I’m Chinese or Japanese.

(0:03:56) speaker_1: I get asked to translate Japanese things all the time. (laughs) We’re very weirdly mistreated by strangers. I get people shout “Ni hao” at me regularly.

(0:04:04) speaker_1: But just, um, an interesting place to have chosen for myself, so that’s very interesting and…

(0:04:12) speaker_1: Um, actually it was in the interview with you that I maybe heard myself say aloud for the first time that I wanted to be a mother, which is kind of funny and interesting and full circle.

(0:04:24) speaker_1: And even at the time, not, I didn’t really believe it, but yeah, I think that, hmm, part of my story begins with, mm, a huge distrust in family in general and kind of like, um, feelings of despair around what it means to be family, what mothers are, what mothers, what b- mothers mean to me personally, and then like what my capability and capacity for family and for love are.

(0:04:52) speaker_1: And I think obviously sitting around and f- and conjecturing and feeling bad about it and then like living your life are very different things, and yeah.

(0:05:01) speaker_1: I’m learning day-by-day, and I think that, and the answer to a lot of that is just loving and being present, and so that’s what I’m trying to do.

(0:05:10) speaker_1: I’ve been at it for, I guess a year and eight months she is, so.

(0:05:16) speaker_0: Aw.

(0:05:17) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:05:18) speaker_0: Um, well, congratulations.

(0:05:21) speaker_1: Thanks.

(0:05:21) speaker_0: And I, I do love that for you, that it, that it’s, that it happened, that you became a mother.

(0:05:27) speaker_1: Thanks. Yeah.

(0:05:29) speaker_0: Um, you know, it’s kind of funny because even though it was so long ago when I first met you and interviewed you for the podcast, your epi- Season 1, Episode 1.

(0:05:40) speaker_0:

(0:05:40) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:05:42) speaker_0: Um, and, and so it was, you know, 2016, so many years ago, and yet, um, there’s people who are just discovering the podcast just now, and part of it is, you know, it’s always, um…

(0:05:57) speaker_0: You know, people are coming into their…… adoptee consciousness-

(0:06:02) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:06:02) speaker_0: … always at different times in their lives.

(0:06:04) speaker_1: Right.

(0:06:04) speaker_0: And so, they might be coming in and I know (laughs) I met someone who recently discovered my podcast, um, and then she had to start, she refused to just, she wanted to go right to the beginning.

(0:06:19) speaker_0:

(0:06:19) speaker_1: Okay.

(0:06:20) speaker_0: So she went and heard, found your, your episode.

(0:06:23) speaker_0: And so, I think there’s a lot of folks that maybe are doing it that way too, that they just, they wanna start from the very beginning.

(0:06:31) speaker_1: Okay.

(0:06:32) speaker_0: Um-

(0:06:32) speaker_1: It’s-

(0:06:33) speaker_0: And there you were.

(0:06:34) speaker_0: So, and you, and so, uh, my point in bringing this up too is that folks can go to season one, episode one, to hear more about that point in time, Alicia’s story-

(0:06:44) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:06:45) speaker_0: … um, reflections.

(0:06:46) speaker_0: And just to kinda sum up a little bit, but you know, you talked about having, you know, difficulties with your adoptive family, and very kind of, uh, you know, abusive memories.

(0:06:57) speaker_0:

(0:06:57) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:06:57) speaker_0: Um, and then also, kind, um, you know, there were, i- it’s complex to be-

(0:07:06) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:07:06) speaker_0: … in reunion.

(0:07:07) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:07:07) speaker_0: To find your first fam.

(0:07:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:07:10) speaker_0: And so how did you go from, you know, family being kind of just bringing up all these kinda difficulties in your life, and then thinking it might not be for you, and then making that turn to it could be for you?

(0:07:25) speaker_0:

(0:07:25) speaker_1: Yeah. I think that’s a good question. I don’t know. I think when I was younger, I was very, you know, we loved to make these different, like, characters.

(0:07:35) speaker_1: I know I’ve heard people refer to themselves as the angry adoptee, and I definitely, I was an angry, upset person who maybe felt that, that my experience sort of existed in like a, you know, the a- the abuse, but also this feeling of it happening to me as an adoptee.

(0:07:54) speaker_1: Like, obviously, we were put in our situations. So, that, that sort of existed in my mind and my experience of it was very, like, in a vacuum, I think?

(0:08:04) speaker_1: And when I lived in Korea, it took me a while to kind of, you know, get, really get to know my Korean family and then, like, confront sort of how I felt.

(0:08:15) speaker_1: And honestly, being around other adoptees in Korea helped me so, so much.

(0:08:19) speaker_1: I have, like, you know, shout out to Corey and AK, and like other, uh, and you (laughs) obviously-

(0:08:25) speaker_0: Oh, that’s sweet.

(0:08:25) speaker_1: …

(0:08:25) speaker_1: but other adoptees, uh, Lara, that were in my life that just, it just felt good to be around other stories and other, yeah, stories that resonated with me.

(0:08:34) speaker_1: And I, I, I don’t know, I think maybe going through that, shedding some of those layers and shedding maybe some of the, those, like, “I’m alone in this,” or, “It just happened to me,” kind of feelings, allowed me to open up space in my heart to maybe communicate in a more clear way with both of my sisters, and realize like, no, actually there, there are a lot of people, and I think yourself included, who did experience it alone.

(0:09:00) speaker_1: And I think, uh, my narrative of it is that I was alone, but in fact I wasn’t.

(0:09:05) speaker_1: You know, I, I was with a sister who had very distinct experiences and very intense experiences as well, and I had this Korean sister in Korea who had her own intense experiences that we were, over years, able to figure out and understand.

(0:09:20) speaker_1: And then for me to see the kind of like, loving mother and just generous sister, and resilient, hardworking businesswoman and person that she is, uh, it just helped to inform a bit more of my story.

(0:09:33) speaker_1: I didn’t need to keep living this kind of singular narrative. And also, I think that there was a really big element of blame.

(0:09:40) speaker_1: I, I, I know that you’re not, (laughs) this isn’t a confessional bit, so I really like maybe try to like slow my roll when I say it.

(0:09:47) speaker_0: Hm.

(0:09:47) speaker_1: But I do think that, like, a lot of that just sort of opened up in me.

(0:09:51) speaker_1: And I, I, I did go through my own struggles too, like here and learning, you know, like I talked lightly about what it’s like to be Asian American here, but sometimes I feel like I am the only Asian American in Spain.

(0:10:03) speaker_1: Maybe I am.

(0:10:04) speaker_1: But, um, that rather than just being maybe a first generation Asian immigrant to a predominantly White country as an adult, I’ve already experienced this, and then I have sort of this, the American, “I have a right to be myself,” kind of mentality behind my existence here.

(0:10:24) speaker_1: And so that was, that kind of sent me through a few loops as well.

(0:10:28) speaker_1: And I think over the, the years in my time here, and particularly, like then sort of, uh, like, going through quarantine and the pandemic here, needing to reach out to my importance, and that including both sisters, and being in touch and finding myself really, like, alone here, and very…

(0:10:49) speaker_1: I don’t know. I think that we, I interviewed you just after quarantine, right? That was in 2020.

(0:10:56) speaker_0: Yes.

(0:10:57) speaker_1: And I was going through s- you know, I’d just kinda gone through that all by myself with my cat, obviously, by myself, and then th- the time that followed, and I realized that I really had to call into question, like, what I was doing with my life, what was important to me, who was I with at the end of the day, at the end of the world, you know?

(0:11:16) speaker_1: And I think that-

(0:11:18) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:11:18) speaker_1: … hmm, I really kind of realized how, how much I, I wanted to, to have a family or to be part of a family.

(0:11:26) speaker_1: And then it just sort of accidentally happened, in the way that you desire things and they accidentally, you know, you will them into reality a little bit, you know?

(0:11:35) speaker_1: So, um, yeah. And I think that’s it.

(0:11:37) speaker_1: I, even until the moment that maybe I was, I held her, I didn’t know if I realized that that’s what I was doing, like, “Okay, yeah.

(0:11:46) speaker_1: Hav- having a family now.

(0:11:47) speaker_1: ” But, um, I think it just, a lot of that just kind of came about for me in the way that most of my life has, that you just sort of head in one direction and you kind of go with what’s happening and discover along the way and…

(0:12:03) speaker_1: It just, I think, yeah. I think most 12 kids probably get that way. You don’t really make a big plan. It just sort of happens.

(0:12:10) speaker_0: It’s not like-

(0:12:11) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:12:11) speaker_0: … you wake up and, “Okay! I’m gonna become a mother,” and then, (laughs) and then…

(0:12:16) speaker_1: I know plenty of mo- of mothers do that and have done that and, you know, for a lot of families who, you’re right, but having a kid is a much more conscious choice and effort.

(0:12:25) speaker_1: But in my situation, I was fortunate enough that it’s something that I, I unblocked o- I took out of the I don’t want list.

(0:12:35) speaker_1: (laughs) And then it, it came to me, so. And I feel, yeah, really fortunate.

(0:12:42) speaker_1: She’s such a wild, amazing person and, and child and strangely looks so much like my sister, my, um, my sister in America and because obviously we don’t have baby photos, right?

(0:12:55) speaker_1: So everything, seeing her face, seeing her come through, having her be like half white, half Italian, a lot of these things, and I’m sure all adoptees have this feeling of when, when you see, uh, like kind of matching up your childhood or your lack of babyhood with your biological babe, I don’t know.

(0:13:14) speaker_1: There’s something strange and amazing there and it comes with its own complications too.

(0:13:19) speaker_1: You can, as you can imagine, as I’m sure many people know, uh, in terms of like she’s now approaching the age where like my birth father would’ve died and I would’ve been taken away from my parents, and I think, or my birth mother, and I think about like how that trauma could affect her and did affect baby me.

(0:13:37) speaker_1: And it’s something I can’t really talk about with most of the people in my life, so maybe if any adoptees listening to this wanna have like a support group together (laughs) with me, like yes, please.

(0:13:48) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:13:49) speaker_0: Oh, absolutely.

(0:13:50) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:13:51) speaker_0: Um, remind us again, how old were you when you were separated from your first fam?

(0:13:56) speaker_1: So I came to America when I was two and a half.

(0:13:59) speaker_1: Um, so I know we’d been in the orphanage for a while, but I think probably just around my second birthday or just before my second birthday is when I was separated from my family.

(0:14:11) speaker_1: I don’t think that Erica and I spent a long, long amount of time.

(0:14:14) speaker_1: And actually since I had the interview with you, I’ve learned even more about my family because I hired a, a Korean American friend to come down and translate for me on my very last week in Korea and spent like uh, a special weekend with my birth mother and my, um, my siblings and it was, it was really clarifying.

(0:14:34) speaker_1: I just felt like I had a lot of unanswered things by way of language barrier and also, you know, how Korean works in its indirect ways, you know?

(0:14:42) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:14:43) speaker_1: And I just really needed the an- answers to the direct questions. Uh, but yeah.

(0:14:48) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:14:48) speaker_1: I, I think that, yeah, some nice things were cleared up for me .

(0:14:53) speaker_0: Well, that must’ve been cathartic to actually… Did you get some answers from your birth mother?

(0:14:58) speaker_1: I did. I did, and I also got, um, like the unspoken answers.

(0:15:03) speaker_1: I think the, one of the main things I took away was I think maybe you heard it in your interview with me that I was at the time, what?

(0:15:13) speaker_1: Like I’m 41 now, so that was, I was 35, right? Or something like that.

(0:15:19) speaker_1: And I was still like very emotionally affected by the abuse of my childhood, and it’s something that I still kind of, I would say wore as part of my identity, which is very, a very strange thing to say or think about now.

(0:15:33) speaker_1: But I think that continued up until, and ma- maybe it took me a while to shed it, but up until I had that conversation, like really beautifully translated words of my mother, and at her age, I, I think at the time maybe she was just cresting 70, her, uh, ’cause it’s been six years now since I left Korea.

(0:15:53) speaker_1: Um, when I asked her about her upbringing and, you know, like her life, really the only things she wanted to talk about were her childhood abuse.

(0:16:05) speaker_1: And it made me, it was just like really shocking.

(0:16:08) speaker_1: I felt like kind of gripped with this reality of, and this scenario of, of course so much pain has happened in her life, so much loss and so much suffering, and she still attributes the largest of those to be th- her, the injustice and the mistreatment that she experienced as a child.

(0:16:28) speaker_1: Isn’t that wild? And also so sad and s- so painful for her. And I just remember telling myself as I listened to this like, “You will not carry this pain.

(0:16:43) speaker_1: You will not continue to carry this, and carry this blame, and carry this sorrow and bitterness inside of you until you’re 70, Aleysha. No, no, no.”

(0:16:52) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:16:52) speaker_1: Like, it’s been long enough, you know?

(0:16:55) speaker_3: (instrumental music)

(0:17:06) speaker_0: Hm. Mm. No. I mean, I, so yeah. I’m recalling back, you know, in our, our conversations at that time and, um, and you mentioned earlier like that you wanted…

(0:17:19) speaker_0: It was really on your sleeve and then something you wore as part of your identity and, and you, and you wanted to blame people or someone.

(0:17:31) speaker_0: Uh, you wanted to put blame somewhere, and then what happens when you sort of realize that you’re on a continuum of people who have survived, uh, such trauma and abuse and m- maybe there is no one to blame?

(0:17:48) speaker_0:

(0:17:49) speaker_1: Or maybe, yeah. Maybe there is no one to blame or maybe like that it, it’s my responsibility in some ways.

(0:17:55) speaker_1: It’s one of the hor- most horrible things about being a victim or abuse, but it’s my responsibility in terms of what I’m gonna do with this now, and I’ve heard that my whole life, right?

(0:18:06) speaker_1: Like, “You’re safe now. You’re fine now. Oh, but w- look at what you can do with…” And so maybe not doing anything-…

(0:18:12) speaker_1: was what I needed to blame someone for, right?

(0:18:16) speaker_1: So, I think also maybe the thing that came, like that really hit home was that it’s, like, it’s abuse or mistreatment or not being loved in this world we live in really isn’t that rare.

(0:18:31) speaker_1: Do you know what I…

(0:18:32) speaker_1: It’s not the most surprising thing but I think maybe, like, within the, the communities and the childhood and the privilege in A- in America that we have been brought up in, that did feel so unfair and unjust next to all of the pe- the family relationships and the people that we saw around us, right?

(0:18:55) speaker_1: But now having realized, like, what I was spared leaving Korea in some ways and also, um, what I have seen just being and living in the world, I, I think I’m maybe starting to kind of, I don’t know, I wouldn’t say, like, measure it against the other types of suffering that exists, but realize that in a lot of ways too I’ve had a, a lot of privilege and a lot of, mm, beautiful things and a lot of luck in my life, a lot of great experiences.

(0:19:25) speaker_1: So I don’t want that to be the thing that I’m talking about to my child at age 70 or that I’m, uh, in terms of what, what is the definition, what is the representation of the life that I have led because maybe I have let that shine a lot brighter than other really beautiful and amazing relationships and experiences.

(0:19:49) speaker_1: And it wasn’t a place that I started from and it’s something I can use to measure, like, the distance in my life (laughs) or, or measure time, I guess.

(0:19:58) speaker_1: But I think that I maybe have, yeah, in some ways stopped letting myself think about or talk about it as much or even maybe at all in a, in a, in any way that, that has meaning or takes up weight or space in my life.

(0:20:17) speaker_1: It’s something that, for example, my current partner, uh, Marco knows about, but it’s not something that we spend a lot of time talking about where maybe I, I felt like it was, um, a suitcase that needed to be brought along in my past relationships.

(0:20:30) speaker_1: So-

(0:20:32) speaker_0: I’m just imagining, you know, it’s like this stranger who, like, decamps in your living room.

(0:20:36) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:20:37) speaker_0: And is making a lot of noise and you’re paying attention.

(0:20:41) speaker_0: (laughs) But like now maybe you’ve decided that there’s other people and things you, like making room in your living room for other things and that person can maybe be sort of in the corner and be, be there, but not that you’re letting them be the, the life of the party.

(0:21:02) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:21:02) speaker_1: Yeah. Th- That’s nice. Yeah.

(0:21:05) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:21:05) speaker_1: A lot like… And I think I’ll…

(0:21:07) speaker_1: Another thing that has happened too with parenting and I, I think that I’ve had a lot more compassion for my adoptive parents.

(0:21:13) speaker_1: Not saying that I can understand and that’s complicated as well.

(0:21:17) speaker_0: Oh, really?

(0:21:19) speaker_1: Yeah. Just we’re… Because, yeah, I think it’s hard to explain because I’ll, I’ll never understand like what the, why… I mean, I don’t think that people…

(0:21:31) speaker_1: I, maybe I have more of a Ghibli understanding of villains now than a Disney understanding.

(0:21:36) speaker_1: (laughs) You know how in a Ghibli movie, like, all of the bad characters just become like deflated like old hamsters and like i- i- old, old ladies who are just like kind and sweet when they’ve, once they’ve lost their venom and power?

(0:21:50) speaker_1: I think that, that that’s sort of maybe how I feel now where in the past I, I believe saw them as these like powerful, stoic, evil out- like people.

(0:22:01) speaker_1: They made really bad decisions and in fact I’ve had some communication with my birth mom since I had… Or my birth mom. Oof, that was rude.

(0:22:09) speaker_1: But well yes, with her, but my adoptive mom since I had my child and I… Just not a lot, but a few messages here and there and some photos.

(0:22:19) speaker_1: And I think that just giving her kind of some, a little bit of grace and having l- allowed her to, to s- yeah, to talk to me a little bit about, um, her experience from that side of things, not by way of explanation or forgiveness, but by, by s- her…

(0:22:44) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:22:45) speaker_1: I mean I think she even said to me like, “I, if I had to do it again, we wouldn’t have adopted you,” which didn’t necessarily feel great, but I think I understood maybe what she meant, um, kind of knowing the pain that they, they had caused.

(0:22:57) speaker_1: So I think, you know, being young and having experienced real loss, um, and I think what it would look like, what I would look like as a woman having, losing a two-year-old, but now having ha- having one.

(0:23:10) speaker_1: Do you know what I mean?

(0:23:12) speaker_1: That I can imagine the kinds of like bitterness and, and hatred and, and mistakes that people are able to make after such a thing being tired, being overworked, et cetera.

(0:23:26) speaker_1: I, I don’t think there are any perfect moms out there, but I, I don’t think, um, I necessarily, I don’t think I had a good one, you know?

(0:23:34) speaker_1: But I, I can understand maybe that she wasn’t just… That there are circumstances that created her, where in the past I saw her as a very flat, evil character.

(0:23:42) speaker_1: That was a really long (laughs) defense. I heard myself defending her and I was like, “No.” (laughs) but I think-

(0:23:49) speaker_0: Yeah. I mean, some of the things you’re describing, like feeling like they adopted you to, to work you-

(0:23:55) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:23:55) speaker_0: … to work, have a worker on the farm and food deprivation and controlling y- you and also I believe your, you said your bio sister was abused as well.

(0:24:10) speaker_0:

(0:24:10) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah.

(0:24:11) speaker_0: Uh, sexually abused.

(0:24:13) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:24:13) speaker_0: You were also emotionally abused.

(0:24:17) speaker_1: And physically abused.

(0:24:19) speaker_0: And physically abused and-

(0:24:21) speaker_1: Really regularly. Yeah.

(0:24:22) speaker_4: Absolutely.

(0:24:23) speaker_0: And, and then to have…

(0:24:26) speaker_0: Yeah, and then to have your adoptive mom kind of, um, ad- you know, um, acknowledge in a way to say, “We wouldn’t have adopted you,” which it- in hindsight maybe.

(0:24:42) speaker_0: And I’m sure that, that, like you said, doesn’t feel great to hear, but it’s almost like an acknowledgement, like, that things happened and it- that harm-

(0:24:52) speaker_4: Yeah.

(0:24:52) speaker_0: They created harm.

(0:24:53) speaker_4: Yeah. Definitely, like she spoke about-

(0:24:58) speaker_1: She tried… So I- it was once… Would it have been after?

(0:25:02) speaker_1: Yeah, it would have been after we had, uh, had the interesting I, I believe that I met her in person, I think, just before I moved to Spain and I thought that, you know, like, I was in a place where I wanted to, like, talk and, and we did have some interesting conversation.

(0:25:21) speaker_1: But after that meetup, I didn’t speak to her again for like (laughs) four or five years.

(0:25:27) speaker_1: So, it wasn’t great, but that’s when she had said that and there was something about, like, um…

(0:25:34) speaker_1: I just felt like- Or she admitted to saying that she had been a shit mom, but I think the, the most striking thing for me was that she said that she hadn’t sought out therapy.

(0:25:45) speaker_1: And so, in that sense, or that can explain it, she wanted to speak to me about a lot of things.

(0:25:53) speaker_1: Like, maybe in some ways I’m the only one that “knows” and that she can talk to about some of her struggles, including issues with my adoptive father.

(0:26:04) speaker_1: And so, I made it very clear that I wasn’t the person to talk to about these things and that-

(0:26:10) speaker_4: Mm-hmm.

(0:26:10) speaker_1: … if she wanted therapy, then that’s-

(0:26:12) speaker_4: Not something on her, but theirs- it was definitely a fear of, like, people knowing. Do you know what I mean?

(0:26:17) speaker_4: And, and that will be- that will take them to their deathbeds, like, being afraid of people knowing and us giving them the grace of not telling anyone, besides obviously this podcast, which lost me the Facebook friendship of my adopted brother (laughs).

(0:26:31) speaker_4: And, and-

(0:26:32) speaker_1: Oh, it did?

(0:26:33) speaker_4: I think it did create a medium shit storm, because my sister posted it on my Facebook page. We used Facebook at the time.

(0:26:41) speaker_4: On my Facebook page, and, uh, I think people from my hometown had listened to it and he was, or is, like, a council person, I think, in our town.

(0:26:53) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:26:53) speaker_4: And my parents obviously were church-going people, et cetera. So, she (sighs)…

(0:27:00) speaker_4: My adoptive mother wanted to, in that same conversation, put the blame on the, the abuse of my sister, um, on other issues related to my adoptive father.

(0:27:13) speaker_4: But again, I’m not there for it and I, I don’t really have a case of ever wanting to see him again or have, like, and missing him or something.

(0:27:23) speaker_0: And she was, she was abused by your brother, right?

(0:27:26) speaker_1: No, my father. My adoptive father.

(0:27:28) speaker_0: Oh, your father. Okay. Oh, okay.

(0:27:31) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:27:32) speaker_0: Okay, so…

(0:27:33) speaker_1: And then that was something that I had found out later and went to, and it was I who uncovered and discovered it, which was not a, a good place for me or in my, my memory.

(0:27:45) speaker_1: Uh, I was 26 when I figured it out. And actually, that needs to be its own, like, zine actually, how I first-

(0:27:52) speaker_4: (laughs) Doubt and… I had… It was quite a, a difficult time for me.

(0:27:59) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:27:59) speaker_4: But worse for my sister, obviously, so…

(0:28:02) speaker_1: But that was s-

(0:28:03) speaker_4: That was a-

(0:28:03) speaker_1: It was another kind of like chapter in the uns- like, the unraveling of my…

(0:28:09) speaker_4: Mm-hmm.

(0:28:09) speaker_1: My family connection, right?

(0:28:11) speaker_1: Like, at that time, I had already lived in California and I decided to then completely end my relationship with them in all capacity, even the once a year visit capacity.

(0:28:22) speaker_1: And, and so it was a really… From then on, it was a very clean cut, but I never- I mean, I haven’t…

(0:28:29) speaker_1: I have only seen her once since then, and that was at 26, and I hadn’t seen or heard from my brother or my adoptive father since then either, so…

(0:28:42) speaker_0: What, what was it like, um, coming on the podcast for you? And, and it sounds like that, you know, it…

(0:28:51) speaker_0: One of the things that I think people fear about coming on a podcast is people in their lives hearing it for the first time. And whereas-

(0:29:01) speaker_4: Hmm.

(0:29:01) speaker_0: … it’s freeing as well.

(0:29:04) speaker_4: Yeah.

(0:29:04) speaker_0: But also, there can be some fallout, and it sounds like in your family, there were some things that happened.

(0:29:11) speaker_1: Yeah, but I think it’s- You- Whatever fallout it is, it is people not wanting to accept the truth. I mean, my brother knows everything that happened.

(0:29:22) speaker_1: He lived with that. I mean, he was there, right? But a- as you know, most middle class, middle America families don’t wanna…

(0:29:30) speaker_1: We were raised to not talk about things out in the open, you know? And even, I think there’s a lot of fear.

(0:29:36) speaker_1: When my sister and I divorced or broke up with our family officially, we wrote letters.

(0:29:40) speaker_1: But, you know, we didn’t- We never really ever talked about these things out in the open face-to-face.

(0:29:45) speaker_1: And, and I think that the podcast, in itself, is freeing in that way maybe, for people who haven’t confronted or haven’t been able to talk about it.

(0:29:55) speaker_1: I’m- Maybe I’m a bit lucky.

(0:29:56) speaker_1: When I, you know, moved to San Francisco and started studying creative writing, oh, I had many opportunities to write and talk about it.

(0:30:04) speaker_1: I think people got really tired of hearing about my abuse (laughs), honestly.

(0:30:08) speaker_1: So, for me it wasn’t, like, a new thing to talk about or explain, and maybe that’s when I joke about, like now.

(0:30:14) speaker_1: Like, I don’t really give that person, yeah, a place in the living room anymore, because it was a bit, uh, of- maybe a bit too much of, of something that I, I gave, um, precedence or gave attention to.

(0:30:28) speaker_1: So-I don’t know.

(0:30:29) speaker_1: I think, um, it’s a- it’s a bit sad that maybe he doesn’t want to or have a place in his mind or heart to ever talk to me again about it.

(0:30:40) speaker_1: But I do think that maybe it, mm, created a little bit of space for my parents to maybe not be so anonymous with…

(0:30:48) speaker_1: and to be- to go so quietly into the night about the kind of people that they were and really, really are.

(0:30:58) speaker_1: Um, but we have chosen, both of us, to kind of let them live their lives in peace so that we can live our lives in peace as well, you know?

(0:31:06) speaker_1: Like, they- they sort of, they leave us alone and we don’t stir things up too much for them, I guess, is sort of our unspoken thing. So…

(0:31:16) speaker_0: And you and your sister, your- that you were adopted with, y- y- you’re sort of, you- you two have become- had become somewhat estranged from the rest of your family?

(0:31:26) speaker_0:

(0:31:26) speaker_1: Um, well, we made a conscious decision. Like, we both had, in our early 20s, gone our separate ways and maybe even a bit estranged from each other.

(0:31:37) speaker_1: And then over time, things like, w- we, things got, yeah, stronger.

(0:31:42) speaker_1: Especially but when we wrote our letters (laughs), uh, leaving our family at saying that we never wanted to see them again, we’re definitely not family from here on out and you’re talking disgusting people and the whole thing.

(0:31:55) speaker_1: And we… But after that, it was just us, you know? And so… And like I said, that was 15 years ago.

(0:32:04) speaker_1: So the whole it was, it’s just us kind of mentality have been through many boyfriends on my end and a husband and another relationship on her end.

(0:32:15) speaker_1: So she, um, and I, even though we obviously live very far away, she lives in Pennsylvania, still are very united and I feel really, really grateful for her, to be honest.

(0:32:27) speaker_1: And after going through a really tough time here after quarantine, she brought me over for Christmas a few years ago.

(0:32:32) speaker_1: She’s bringing all of us over for Christmas this year to see her.

(0:32:37) speaker_1: They came out here after Ruby was born and, um, yeah, I think it’s- it’s important and really vital for me. I don’t think I could exist just on my own.

(0:32:47) speaker_1: I- I really need her and I think she really needs me as well. So… And for- for both of us, specifically for her, it has been just me.

(0:32:58) speaker_1: I have like our Korean sister as well, which she doesn’t have a relationship with.

(0:33:03) speaker_1: So, I think, yeah, it’s very important for us to be together and to have our- have each other. Mm-hmm.

(0:33:13) speaker_0: Alicia, um, he- it’s so…

(0:33:15) speaker_0: With the trauma and all the things you’ve gone through in life and you always- you struck me as just being a very joyful person, even though when I met you and even just talking, I don’t know, is that…

(0:33:31) speaker_0: Where does that come from?

(0:33:32) speaker_1: I don’t know.

(0:33:35) speaker_0: Like an adventure life, seeker of experiences, someone who, you know, um…

(0:33:42) speaker_0: This is my impression of you, that, um, really like loves and feels deeply and cares as- cares for people in your life.

(0:33:54) speaker_0: And it just seems, you know, from talking to you, I just think that wouldn’t you just be this dark person, but you have a lot of joy it seems like in your life.

(0:34:07) speaker_0:

(0:34:07) speaker_1: Thank you for saying that. Thank you. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I also wonder sometimes. (laughs) It’s not all…

(0:34:15) speaker_1: And the other thing that’s funny is, it’s definitely not like fake because I also sometimes wonder that about myself too.

(0:34:23) speaker_1: It’s not- I definitely have my moments like where I’ve- I’ve been depressed and I’ve had anxiety, but I think my modus operandi is this, is like f- like you say, deep feeling, full of love, positive.

(0:34:39) speaker_1: But like, I- I don’t know. The- the dark places maybe come from the things that are lacking. In Spanish we say the faltas.

(0:34:48) speaker_1: The faltas from like from maybe how I was raised, what I believe about myself, maybe, uh, issues of self esteem or imposter syndrome.

(0:34:59) speaker_1: Those- those things, they creep up, but I feel… When I was younger I used to say like, “The worst has happened.

(0:35:07) speaker_1: ” (laughs) The worst has happened and the rest is like, to, yeah, to, an adventure to discover.

(0:35:13) speaker_1: I used to call everything an adventure and I think I’m at that place in my life where I’m like a bit reflective about how well I used or didn’t use my 20s.

(0:35:22) speaker_1: But I- I’ve had a really great adventure thus far, and so I’m- I’m always really surprised, uh, about where life has taken me. You know what I mean?

(0:35:32) speaker_1: Like, I- I’m really lucky.

(0:35:34) speaker_1: I’ve had a lot of really beautiful, uh, friendships and relationships with people that have supported me and loved me and taught me how to love and- and to, yeah, and about the world.

(0:35:46) speaker_1: Because I really felt like at 19, I entered the world in- incredibly sheltered, just without much knowledge of anything, without much belief in myself, but I was, uh, very brave kind of in a there’s no going back or in a very naive way.

(0:36:04) speaker_1: (laughs) I was very brave.

(0:36:06) speaker_1: I had the courage of naivety and- and youth and I’m really grateful for that in a lot of ways because there really was no going back when I bought that plane ticket to California, that one way ticket.

(0:36:17) speaker_1: So, I feel really…

(0:36:20) speaker_0: Mm.

(0:36:20) speaker_1: … grateful for her, whoever that was, that version of me that kind of pushed me forward ’cause I- I don’t think as a- as young, um……

(0:36:31) speaker_1: a Korean adoptee, Alisha, on the farm, I could have ever imagined this life for myself and, and I really think that living in Korea was such an important step and, and part of my life.

(0:36:43) speaker_1: Like, there really is a before and after, you know?

(0:36:46) speaker_1: Like, I, I don’t think I could be nearly as at peace with myself and, and who I am where my identity isn’t really something that I ever really worry about or think about it.

(0:36:57) speaker_1: It’s secure now after having spent that time. Uh, maybe other Korean adoptees who’ve kind of fulfilled that bit of their life would feel the same.

(0:37:07) speaker_0: ‘Cause I, (laughs) I remember when I met you, um, I had just gotten to Korea to start my year there and I was just so in awe of you because here was this like, you seem very cosmopolitan, you know, you were a Seoulite.

(0:37:21) speaker_0: (bell dinging) Had been in Korea for a few years at that point, (bell dinging) um, and then you-

(0:37:27) speaker_1: I’d been five at that point, yeah.

(0:37:29) speaker_0: And that you-

(0:37:30) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:37:30) speaker_0: I mean, you could… You joked to some granny on the street in Korean and you… ‘Cause you know, you spoke some Korean.

(0:37:37) speaker_1: (laughs).

(0:37:37) speaker_0: You seemed really comfortable with your surroundings.

(0:37:41) speaker_1: Yeah, I know. (laughs)

(0:37:41) speaker_0: And I was just really in awe of… You knew where to get the, um, the authentic bread.

(0:37:46) speaker_1: Absolutely. (laughs)

(0:37:46) speaker_0: Like European bread. (laughs)

(0:37:49) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:37:51) speaker_0: And I just-

(0:37:52) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:37:52) speaker_0: I just remember just thinking, “Wow, you’re just, you know…

(0:37:56) speaker_0: ” Um, th- you know, hoping that maybe one day I would feel as good in my skin in Korea as you appeared to be at that time. I don’t-

(0:38:05) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:06) speaker_0: But, um, I’m wondering that… So for, for example, with your adoptive family story, really some dark things and-

(0:38:17) speaker_1: Yeah, some really horrible things.

(0:38:18) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:38:19) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:38:19) speaker_0: I mean, let’s, let’s not sugarcoat it and, um, and then for a lot of adoptees we, we have, we have this redemptive thing, right?

(0:38:26) speaker_0: We wanna go back to Korea and to reclaim something that we feel was taken from us, right?

(0:38:32) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:33) speaker_0: And then, and then going to Korea and, you know, with your first family, learning that it w- like life was really hard and for the, your, um, siblings that, that remained in Korea, that, that they told you that life was very hard.

(0:38:52) speaker_0: And, and somehow it doesn’t fit because you want to go back to Korea and say, “My life would’ve been better if you…”

(0:38:59) speaker_1: Yep. Yeah.

(0:39:00) speaker_0: And then you’re faced with this reality of that everyone there is saying, is looking at you like somehow you escaped a really hard life.

(0:39:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:39:10) speaker_0: How did you, how did you make s- how did you come to terms with that?

(0:39:14) speaker_1: Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know if I, I, I don’t… I was gonna say I don’t know if I have, but you know what?

(0:39:19) speaker_1: I think I had to immediately come to terms with it. Like, the very first visit, it became quite clear that we were the lucky ones, right?

(0:39:29) speaker_1: And in fact, in that last interview that I’m telling you about that I did with my mother…

(0:39:34) speaker_1: Interview is a funny way to put it because I did record and then somehow ended up losing what I recorded, (laughs) which is stupid but I have it in my mind.

(0:39:40) speaker_1: Um, but I’m, there was a part where sh- my Korean sister was recounting to me again, and it had been a couple times I’d heard it but in a beautifully translated way about what had happened to her after my sister and I went to the orphanage.

(0:39:56) speaker_1: And at that time she would’ve been, I would say 13 or 14, and she was taken to be a cleaning girl in a medium wealthy family’s home and was, mm, treated so poorly and beaten so badly that she ended up in the hospital and she has this s- big white bump of a scar in the top kind of middle of her head.

(0:40:15) speaker_1:

(0:40:16) speaker_0: Ah.

(0:40:16) speaker_1: And at that point she, you know, had been, I think she was hit with, um, like, I don’t know, like a vase or something and she had been bleeding and was sent to the hospital and at that point was brought back to live with our biological mother.

(0:40:30) speaker_1: And when she tells it, her whole face is just full of tears and anguish and she’s living that reality of the shame and the loneliness of a 13-year-old probably living, sleeping on the floor, working for everyone completely without family, completely without protection, and how horrible it felt to be, to be treated like that.

(0:40:52) speaker_1: And there was no…

(0:40:54) speaker_1: At, at that moment, my, my Korean mother turns to me and hits me on the, the side, the side as Korean mothers do, it’s not angry but the hitting, getting hit on the arms and the shoulder and being told, “Look, look what she went through.

(0:41:08) speaker_1: You were so lucky.” And that’s how my friend translated it. “Look, look what she went through. You’re so lucky.” And (sighs) it was really hard.

(0:41:18) speaker_1: It was really hard to accept that but I can’t say anything. You know? Like I, if that’s what she believes, that…

(0:41:24) speaker_1: And I can’t negate my, my sister’s suffering and that was only the beginning for her.

(0:41:29) speaker_1: You know, she worked in a garment factory and slept on the floor next to the sewing machine for the next 10 years of her life, right?

(0:41:37) speaker_1: So I, I feel that if that’s…

(0:41:39) speaker_1: if it helps them to think that all of this suffering and all of the suffering they can feel relieved that Erica and I survived and are, in our way, then I, I’ll let her think that.

(0:41:51) speaker_1: But my Korean sister knows better because we were able to explain ourselves to each other a few times prior to that.

(0:41:57) speaker_1: But my, my friend who was translating turned and said to her like, “You, you… That’s not a very nice thing to say. You don’t know.

(0:42:03) speaker_1: ” But she didn’t really go beyond that and I told her, “No need to say anything else.

(0:42:08) speaker_1: ” But what my sister had experienced in that suffering, and I f- and I saw it in her face, it must have been so horrible, but I also felt that for probably a good 10 years of my life, that feeling that, of anguish.

(0:42:21) speaker_1: And I’m… I don’t know.

(0:42:22) speaker_1: I, I think that in the end I have to rest easy w- with knowing that what I have and what I received in some kind of strange karmic payment for-…

(0:42:35) speaker_1: the suffering that it seems like all of my family was kind of (laughs) like, weirdly doomed to, that at least I got opportunity, you know?

(0:42:43) speaker_1: W- what Erika and I got are, is opportunity.

(0:42:46) speaker_1: And my Korean sister made that opportunity for herself through hard work, through, you know, marrying somebody who was loving and kind and building a family, and just, and hard work.

(0:42:58) speaker_1: But my Korean brother is the example of taking the same route as my probably biological parents both did, which was blame, suffering, um, and also living in kind of a lonely isolation with one’s pain and suffering.

(0:43:15) speaker_1: And I haven’t spoken to him in a really long time-

(0:43:18) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:43:18) speaker_1: … to be honest. And s- it’s basically since then, since that six years ago is maybe the last time I saw him.

(0:43:24) speaker_1: And kind of up until the end, I think he’s always s- m- I wouldn’t say he’s jealous of me, ’cause that’s not fair, but I think that he definitely sees me as being quite selfish and, you know, I did loan him money or give him money and, and try to help him with his life in some way here and there, but, you know, he’s eight years older than me, he’s an adult as well, and his bad habits or the way he’s, he’s living his life, and the things that he…

(0:43:50) speaker_1: that were instilled in him that he didn’t get or that he did receive at a really young age are part of him now. Do you know what I mean?

(0:44:00) speaker_1: Uh, uh, and maybe he’s, he’s not listening to Louise Hay videos (laughs) and meditating and doing yoga every day to try desperately to change that, and maybe…

(0:44:08) speaker_1: and th- there’s where we differ, and I think that comes from opportunity and influence, and the people that I’ve met who have helped change me as well in my life, so.

(0:44:17) speaker_1:

(0:44:22) speaker_0: Yeah, it is really hard, uh, to come to terms with the fact that when we go back to Korea, that for, for a lot of us, we do come back as a privileged person, having-

(0:44:37) speaker_1: For sure.

(0:44:38) speaker_0: … just being raised in first-world countries, uh, having opportunities, but no less pain. You know what I mean? So-

(0:44:48) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:44:49) speaker_0: It, it, it can seem like to Koreans in Korea that we have so much more and we should just shut up, like, and stop complaining and whining.

(0:44:59) speaker_1: I think so. Um-

(0:44:59) speaker_0: We can make money just by speaking our language, you know? (laughs) By-

(0:45:03) speaker_1: Exactly. And I did, and that was a very obvious thing, right, for e- obvious reason for me to just, like, not have anything to complain about, I think.

(0:45:12) speaker_1: And, you know, and we know that too, that the Korean, you know, like, e- it was always very funny for me to look around and think, “Well, what, where were you?

(0:45:20) speaker_1: What were your parents doing?

(0:45:21) speaker_1: What were you eating, or what were you wearing when we were all, you know, living as orphans and our parents were starving to death?” Like, where was everybody?

(0:45:29) speaker_1: Because when I lived in Korea, all of those people…

(0:45:32) speaker_1: I don’t know if the same happened for you, where I would kind of look at former bosses or coworkers or people around me, thinking that, “What were they doing in 1985 when my family was, you know, going through poverty and we were given up for adoption so we wouldn’t starve to death?

(0:45:46) speaker_1: What, what was everybody else doing?” Because they were in Korea at that time.

(0:45:50) speaker_1: And I think that this, there’s this collective, “Just don’t talk about it. We’re all fine now. Look what, how we’re dressed,” right?

(0:45:57) speaker_1: And so, we’re, we, we fucked that up as adoptees. We impede that, or kind of like collective forgetting in a lot of ways. And I think us, we should just…

(0:46:09) speaker_1: This idea that we should just, like, shut up and be happy that we’re coming back with, you know, opportunities and wealth or privileged childhoods, et cetera, is part of that too, because everybody else also lived something difficult and rough, but we’re not…

(0:46:23) speaker_1: As a culture maybe, we’ve decided to just put that behind us. And so-

(0:46:29) speaker_0: Like it’s, like adoptees who come back we’re, we’re upsetting the unspoken-

(0:46:34) speaker_1: Exactly.

(0:46:34) speaker_0: … uh, agreement, right?

(0:46:37) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:46:38) speaker_0: To like, let’s just move forward and not look back.

(0:46:42) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:46:42) speaker_0: And, and adoptees are like, “But wait. This happened, and this happened.”

(0:46:47) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:46:47) speaker_0: “And um, we’re from here and got sent out because of… you couldn’t take care of us and…

(0:46:54) speaker_0: ” Um, so given your family backgrounds and your experiences did you ever feel-

(0:47:00) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:47:00) speaker_0: … like unsure if you could raise somebody and have a healthy, happy family? And-

(0:47:09) speaker_1: Girl, (laughs) girl, you, you know these are things I think, I think about, right? Like there’s…

(0:47:15) speaker_1: I’m sure there are all kinds of moms out there, and moms…

(0:47:18) speaker_1: I, I don’t think moms who are 100% of the time think that they’re the best mom ever really exist.

(0:47:25) speaker_1: But I definitely, you know, feel that there, there are moments… I mean, I definitely have, you know… well anyway.

(0:47:32) speaker_1: My birth, life for me cannot go d- go around easily. So like my birth itselfs, I had the, I had PTSD after, right? So, or the birth itself.

(0:47:41) speaker_1: So like, I definitely had like a little touch of postpartum. I don’t know if you’d have a little touch.

(0:47:45) speaker_1: But I felt a little bit not myself for the first few months after and it crossed my mind like, (gasps) “It’s the curse!” (laughs) maybe, you know.

(0:47:53) speaker_1: But no, six months ******* and I did some therapy. I, I had postpartum, yeah. Or I mean, it was undiagnosed, but I, I was diagnosed with PTSD.

(0:48:04) speaker_1: So I just, my partner and I, we both say that around six months is kind of when I started being myself again.

(0:48:11) speaker_1: But I told myself right o- like I knew that something was off and I needed to go to therapy because I said this is not one of these traumas that I’m gonna let linger around with me forever.

(0:48:22) speaker_1: I, I know what to do now because I’ve lived through traumas. I’m gonna deal with it right now.

(0:48:28) speaker_1: And honestly going like here in Spain, I’ll give it to their credit that if you have an issue you go and it’s part of the government healthcare, I was able to talk to someone several times, I was really heard, I was met with a lot of empathy and kindness….

(0:48:42) speaker_1: and I decided to not hush up and to talk to the people around me about it as much as I could in the beginning.

(0:48:49) speaker_1: And it helped me a lot, and I feel like I was able to put that behind me and move on. So I’m not bringing any new traumas.

(0:48:56) speaker_1: And I do definitely wonder, how am I gonna explain to Ruby as she gets older who I am?

(0:49:01) speaker_1: (laughs) But I think she’s seeing who I am every day, and I’m gonna have to figure out some interesting, insightful, and creative way to explain to her why she doesn’t have grandparents.

(0:49:12) speaker_1: She only has a nonna and a nono in Italy, so she doesn’t have grandparents and, (sighs) and these things.

(0:49:19) speaker_1: And I do obviously feel like there are a lot more things in my head, like what I briefly brought up about, um, what, what happened to me at her age, and you know, what it’s like to have all these kind of like fears and anxieties around like, for example, abuse, or what it is to raise your voice, or what happens when you lose your patience, right?

(0:49:40) speaker_1: But I think that I know that I’ll, I’m only me, you know? And my…

(0:49:43) speaker_1: I have a really loving and amazing partner who’s a wonderful dad, who is really good at reminding both of us that we’re just ourselves, you know?

(0:49:52) speaker_1: And if ourselves start with a base of love and joy, and I think that’s part of why we also just wanna have one child, (laughs) but joy, then that’s it.

(0:50:01) speaker_1: Then there’s, there’s never a chance that I’ll be like my adoptive parents, because we’re just coming to her as ourselves.

(0:50:09) speaker_1: We’re not pretending that we know everything. We grew up when, where parents were, like, huge authorities, and it’s just this way because it’s this way.

(0:50:17) speaker_1: And you know, we’re…

(0:50:18) speaker_1: And we live in Spain where maybe children are just like really loved and valued and seen, and also like making life easy for parents is kind of part of the whole thing here.

(0:50:29) speaker_1: Like, our health- our, mm, healthcare is free and our, um, uh, daycare starts in September, which is also free, uh, at age two, right? So-

(0:50:40) speaker_0: Mm. Wow.

(0:50:40) speaker_1: … I feel like I ha- we- I have… I’m in a good place for this all to be happening.

(0:50:45) speaker_1: I have the support in my partner and the support in our, in this society and culture here for it to go well, you know? But, I don’t think that…

(0:50:55) speaker_1: I don’t know. I think that there are a lot of factors in, at play that could make it go badly, (laughs) and I’m not allowing myself to get into those.

(0:51:03) speaker_1: You know, like, isolated, on the phone with five children, you know, like hating my life.

(0:51:08) speaker_1: That, those aren’t the context in which I wanna have raised this person. And-

(0:51:13) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:51:13) speaker_1: … I don’t think, I won’t allow myself to have that, so.

(0:51:16) speaker_0: Yeah, I think that’s an important takeaway is you’ve really made a conscious decision that you’re not your trauma, uh-

(0:51:24) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:51:25) speaker_0: … and that y- you don’t want your daughter to be your trauma, or your, your relationship to be that, to be, to be defined by that, or that-

(0:51:33) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:33) speaker_0: … to have her, to be 70 years old and to have this be an, your trauma be part of your relationship with her.

(0:51:42) speaker_1: Yeah, or my legacy to her, or-

(0:51:44) speaker_0: Yeah, your legacy.

(0:51:44) speaker_1: … given the-

(0:51:45) speaker_0: Right.

(0:51:46) speaker_1: … way in which I identify myself to her. No, no, and, and also, pfft, yeah, no.

(0:51:51) speaker_1: My, my siblings will talk about the burden that my mother was on them, my birth mother was on them while they were working in the sweatshops, how she would always come and need their help and need their money to go to the doctor, and sh- she just…

(0:52:05) speaker_1: I can see that like she had never really fixed or solved anything in herself before having kids, and it’s not her fault.

(0:52:12) speaker_1: Uh, her having children, like you say, wasn’t a conscious choice, and I’m lucky enough that I lived in an America where I could have an abortion if I wasn’t ready to have a child, and at this point in my life, I am, and I chose this person to be raised by this version of me now.

(0:52:29) speaker_1: And definitely like 24-year-old me would not have been a great mom, but I’m, I’m confident that I, I’m ready or I wouldn’t have done it, and so, so far-

(0:52:43) speaker_0: Oh, good.

(0:52:43) speaker_1: … so good. (laughs)

(0:52:44) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:52:44) speaker_1: So far so good, she’s still alive and she’s amazing. (laughs)

(0:52:47) speaker_0: (laughs) I know, I like-

(0:52:49) speaker_1: And she’s trilingual, and she-

(0:52:50) speaker_0: Trilingual.

(0:52:50) speaker_1: Yeah, or quadri- quadrilingual, actually.

(0:52:53) speaker_1: Well, she’s already got four sh- I mean, she’s got Italian, Spanish, and English at home, and then we read some Korean things, and we have like a little Korean like bus that plays songs, like electronic toy, and I swear to God, now every time we go past a Chinese business or store, ’cause in Barcelona most Asians are Chinese, she will shout, “Annyeong” at them and like by way of strange like reverse racism where she thinks all Asians say annyeong, so.

(0:53:18) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:53:18) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:53:19) speaker_1: Or, and she often r- she loves the words (Korean) because of a book that we read.

(0:53:28) speaker_0: Aw.

(0:53:28) speaker_1: So she’s got some words, and, and we, I taught her some basic normal words like it hurts, but ayya, ayya, like in Korean, so those are like the basis for how she knows certain words.

(0:53:41) speaker_1: She only knows them in Korean, for example, so-

(0:53:43) speaker_0: Does she-

(0:53:43) speaker_1: … that’s kind of-

(0:53:44) speaker_0: Does she call you oma?

(0:53:47) speaker_1: No, we go, I go “Mama,” because-

(0:53:49) speaker_0: Mama. Okay.

(0:53:50) speaker_1: I kind of, I preferred that, but she knows what oma is, and but she calls my sister in, in America imo.

(0:53:55) speaker_1: She, I asked her what she wanted to be called and she’s gone with imo.

(0:53:59) speaker_0: Ah.

(0:54:00) speaker_1: So at least she has that in her life. Yeah, unless-

(0:54:04) speaker_0: Were there-

(0:54:05) speaker_1: I don’t know. I know some people wanna be called oma. For me, no. I, the word is a little bit painful for me, I think, actually.

(0:54:11) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:54:11) speaker_1: So, I prefer Mama, yeah.

(0:54:14) speaker_0: Yeah. So why Spain a- after what, five years in Korea?

(0:54:20) speaker_1: Seven years in Korea, and now-

(0:54:23) speaker_0: Five in here, wow.

(0:54:23) speaker_1: … six years in Spain.

(0:54:26) speaker_0: Why Spain? And then-

(0:54:29) speaker_1: Great question.

(0:54:29) speaker_0: … was it almost, was it almost easier going to a third country than to going back to America?

(0:54:36) speaker_1: Oof, no, these are expat questions. These aren’t really adoptee questions anymore.

(0:54:40) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:54:42) speaker_1: I, I don’t know. Well, I came to Spain ’cause I was dating a Catalan at the time, and I think, like when you said about-…

(0:54:49) speaker_1: like, the vibe I was in in Seoul. I could have stayed in Seoul.

(0:54:52) speaker_1: And actually now, sometimes I think about maybe moving back to Seoul, so maybe the next time we have this interview I’ll be in Seoul again. (laughs)

(0:54:59) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:54:59) speaker_1: It’s just that the… Like, it’s too good.

(0:55:02) speaker_1: You know, it’s too easy here in terms of, like, you know, the health insurance and the social programs and, and how, the way that Spain takes care of people.

(0:55:11) speaker_1:

(0:55:11) speaker_5: Mm-hmm.

(0:55:11) speaker_1: It’s, it’s quite nice.

(0:55:13) speaker_1: I think that’s what’s kept me here, but I came with, um, the, uh, person that I was dating at the time who needed to come back for family reasons and we just weren’t at a place that h- I was ready to break up, but we weren’t really that, that serious.

(0:55:27) speaker_1: So I came and I stayed and we were together for another almost two years after I moved here and that relationship didn’t work out, but I still had some time in my visa and I thought, “Well, I’ll just stay and see what happens.

(0:55:38) speaker_1: ” Then the pandemic happened and then my life took me for a little bit of a low, and then when I came back up again, I met my current partner, Marco, uh, his son, and we got pregnant accidentally, and here I am.

(0:55:53) speaker_1: (laughs) So, uh, uh, he doesn’t like when I say accidentally, but we got pregnant and here we are.

(0:55:59) speaker_1: And, um, it was easier I think to go to S- maybe here than America, because I talked to my friends who have gone from Korea back to America or Korea back to Ireland, and they say, like, “You know, nobody understands, oh, people who’ve gone back,” and then we joke about being in, like, a self-help group of people who’ve, um, had to come out of all the luxuries of living abroad as an expat, and, and nobody understands us and everybody else is in, like, a different financial place, and, um, h- and I don’t know.

(0:56:30) speaker_1: I feel like, yeah, maybe I skipped that staying here. My friends who live in America definitely had different fates than me.

(0:56:36) speaker_1: But I feel lucky I guess in some ways, although most of my friends, including partner here, we don’t, aren’t really expats.

(0:56:42) speaker_1: I think we’re all just immigrants, which is kind of a, a different, a funny distinction.

(0:56:47) speaker_1: The people that maybe who are expats, expats here, have come with outside money and those of us who just, like, kind of jump into the Spanish way of life and are used to the- getting used to the low salaries and, and the kind of hard style of life here, I think we just, we don’t really, we’re not living in privilege.

(0:57:07) speaker_1: (laughs) But it’s still quite, mm, it’s a good place to live. I’m happy here. I think I’ll stick it out for at least another five years.

(0:57:14) speaker_1: You might see me in Seoul again-

(0:57:16) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:57:16) speaker_1: … when I was 70 years old.

(0:57:17) speaker_0: Maybe it will… I’ll be retired there.

(0:57:20) speaker_1: (gasps) Is that something you’re thinking about?

(0:57:22) speaker_0: (laughs) That is something I’m thinking about. Yeah.

(0:57:25) speaker_1: Ooh. Did y- I wanted to ask you-

(0:57:27) speaker_0: ‘Cause I-

(0:57:28) speaker_1: Oh, go ahead.

(0:57:28) speaker_0: Uh, yeah, because when I came back, I was only there a year, right? I, and I couldn’t take it for much longer. I really, I even moved up my-

(0:57:35) speaker_1: Oh, lady.

(0:57:35) speaker_0: … I even moved up my flight, because-

(0:57:37) speaker_1: Wow. Oh, yeah?

(0:57:39) speaker_0: … I had such a, like, love/hate relationship-

(0:57:44) speaker_1: Like, heartbreak.

(0:57:44) speaker_0: … with Korea.

(0:57:45) speaker_1: Oh, no. I’m sorry.

(0:57:47) speaker_0: But, um, I also think that, I hear this a lot, that people say the second year is easier, because you’re-

(0:57:53) speaker_1: Yeah, you only have to slug through it. It’s so… I mean, I was pretty depressed and I had a rough time the first year for sure.

(0:57:59) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:57:59) speaker_1: But then-

(0:58:00) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:58:00) speaker_1: … you have to… Mm.

(0:58:01) speaker_0: You can build on something in the second year and you have more language capacity and you have more-

(0:58:07) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:58:07) speaker_0: … uh, cultural knowledge. I think the first year was so…

(0:58:11) speaker_0: Because also I just dived in, like, I really hadn’t spent much time in Korea and then, like, I decided I was gonna move there, and as a, you know, middle-aged person, woman, and, you know, it was just, it was a lot to take in, like, all of the cultural differences.

(0:58:28) speaker_0:

(0:58:29) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:58:29) speaker_0: Um, and then the adoptee stuff on top of that, and, um, but-

(0:58:35) speaker_1: I’m sorry. Yeah.

(0:58:36) speaker_0: Even moving back to the States, I-

(0:58:39) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:58:39) speaker_0: There was, like, a big culture shock and there was a lot of things that I missed about Korea, like, moving back to the States-

(0:58:46) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:58:46) speaker_0: …

(0:58:46) speaker_0: moving back, I ended up back in Minnesota, and very white, and just things that I took for granted in Seoul, like just that comfort level of being surrounded by other people who look like you and being, that sort of comfort.

(0:59:01) speaker_0:

(0:59:01) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:59:02) speaker_0: And then being thrown back to the life that I had come from-

(0:59:07) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:59:07) speaker_0: … and just, like, realizing, “Oh, this doesn’t feel good.” And-

(0:59:11) speaker_1: How cool that it’s not normal anymore, what was always so normal.

(0:59:14) speaker_0: Yeah, like, the norm- the n- it’s a new normative, and like-

(0:59:18) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:59:18) speaker_0: … the thing that I, like, being back, like, and I realize, like, I didn’t, it wasn’t easy to go back-

(0:59:25) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:59:25) speaker_0: … to my life in the States, because I realized, like, “Well, Korea changed me,” and-

(0:59:29) speaker_1: Yes, definitely. Definitely.

(0:59:32) speaker_0: So wondering if, like, actually going to another country would have even been-

(0:59:38) speaker_1: Yes. Yes. But it’s also, like, I’m kind of already imagining more-

(0:59:43) speaker_0: It’s-

(0:59:43) speaker_1: It’s, like, a slightly, like, 1980s racist over here, so it’s a bit, it’s kind of hard to be, uh, a racial minor- I mean, it’s h- it’s hard to be a racial minority I would say, but it’s also not.

(0:59:57) speaker_1: Like, I, I tell myself, I mean, “God, I love my nation so amazing.

(1:00:01) speaker_1: ” But I definitely am- it’s annoying after living in Asia for so long, kind of also having lived in California before that, to have gone through all of this, um, slow and painful, like, uh, I want generational, um, growth or, yeah, generational growth to get to a place where people aren’t so close-minded and, and racist, to then coming to a place that is.

(1:00:25) speaker_1: (laughs) It’s like, “Shuck, what happened? Why did I choose this?” Uh, but it’s okay.

(1:00:32) speaker_1: I get to be part of that generation in Spain that, mm, creates a second gen and that starts representation, and, uh, tries to, is an integration and tries to stop, uh, or, or educate and, uh, illuminate people’s minds here a little bit.

(1:00:50) speaker_1: That would be nice. So I’m lucky to live in a really diverse neighborhood anyway, so that’s cool.

(1:00:57) speaker_0: You do? Okay.

(1:00:58) speaker_1: I do, yeah.

(1:01:00) speaker_0: Well, A- Alicia, what, I mean… Has it occurred to you, is your, that you’re ra- that you’re raising a Spanish daughter?

(1:01:06) speaker_1: I know. It’s a little bit strange. And the crazy thing is that she… Well, she’s not technically Spanish, because in Spain sh- y- she’s American.

(1:01:15) speaker_1: She’s American and, um… Oh, she’s calling me now for baby. She’s American and Italian, because you’re not Spanish just ’cause you’re born here.

(1:01:24) speaker_1: Isn’t that funny?

(1:01:25) speaker_0: Oh. But culturally, she will be if you, if you end up staying, right?

(1:01:29) speaker_1: Culturally. Culturally, yes. And at school, they will teach her in Catalan. Oh, she’s calling you.

(1:01:34) speaker_0: Oh, Ruby, do you wanna be on the podcast?

(1:01:38) speaker_1: If I let her in here, it might be a lot of screams. Do, do you wanna be able to edit this part out? I don’t know if Marco wants me to.

(1:01:46) speaker_0: Yeah, it’s up to you. It’s up to you. We can have her in or not, or however. If you wanna… She wants to be with you.

(1:01:55) speaker_1: I’m gonna see.

(1:01:58) speaker_6: No. Speaker 4: Leave it. No! No!

(1:02:02) speaker_1: Okay, come on.

(1:02:03) speaker_6: No! No!

(1:02:03) speaker_1: Stay, stay.

(1:02:04) speaker_6: No!

(1:02:04) speaker_1: We’re gonna get you messed up if you cry, okay.

(1:02:10) speaker_6: No! Aah!

(1:02:10) speaker_1: Here, I got her. I’ve got her.

(1:02:12) speaker_6: Help me!

(1:02:12) speaker_1: And we’re gonna calm down.

(1:02:16) speaker_6: Aah!

(1:02:16) speaker_1: Are you okay?

(1:02:18) speaker_6: Aah!

(1:02:20) speaker_1: Shh. Shh. We’re still here. What’d she say?

(1:02:28) speaker_0: Was she… Did she just wake up?

(1:02:30) speaker_1: No, no, she’s ready for bed. So this is like-

(1:02:33) speaker_0: Oh.

(1:02:33) speaker_1: … we were, we were eating dinner when I remembered that I had this with you.

(1:02:36) speaker_0: Oh. (laughs)

(1:02:37) speaker_1: (laughs) And so, it’s eight…

(1:02:39) speaker_1: In the summers, I’m working at like a special camp, and I have one day off between my two-week rounds, and today was that day.

(1:02:45) speaker_0: Aw.

(1:02:45) speaker_1: And I taught some other classes. And so, my partner is, is kind of full-time daycare these days for her.

(1:02:52) speaker_1: And so, we were spending some time together this afternoon, and had dinner together.

(1:02:57) speaker_1: And then he was just, uh, spending time with her while I was with you, and now it’s time for bed. So, she’s, this is when she misses me the most, at bedtime.

(1:03:06) speaker_1:

(1:03:06) speaker_0: (laughs) Was, were there parts that triggered you about your pregnancy?

(1:03:10) speaker_0: You know, thinking back, like, like just kind of thinking about your own, you know, origins into the world?

(1:03:18) speaker_1: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I ha- I got to have some nice video calls with my birth mother.

(1:03:25) speaker_1: Probably just one while pregnant, and two after Ruby was born, with my bi- biological sister and my, um, birth mom.

(1:03:33) speaker_1: But it was really nice seeing their reaction to me being pregnant and having a baby.

(1:03:39) speaker_1: But I don’t know, I didn’t really connect it too much to my, to her experience.

(1:03:44) speaker_1: I did think about how amazing it was like that in all of the difficulty of her life at the time, that she was able to carry all of us, and, and, and do all of the things, like breastfeed us, and keep us alive in such a vulnerable way, in such a…

(1:03:59) speaker_1: Isn’t it amazing how they can, how… They kept all of us alive in such like horrible conditions.

(1:04:05) speaker_1: You know, it depends on each person’s conditions, but I think that I’d heard that ours were particularly bad, you know?

(1:04:12) speaker_1: So, I don’t know what happened in e- in each of those moments in those first years.

(1:04:17) speaker_1: But I know that I was fed and I was kept alive, and I’m really grateful for that.

(1:04:23) speaker_1: So, um, that she at least was healthy enough while she was pregnant, that all of us turned out as full-formed human beings (laughs).

(1:04:31) speaker_1: I think I feel really grateful for that, because these days a week, we make everything seem like it’s so difficult and challenging and fragile.

(1:04:39) speaker_1: And I think remembering that it h- that this woman that I know, uh, was able to do that for us, makes me think, “Okay, we’re pretty hardy people.

(1:04:47) speaker_1: Or we’re hardy babies and we’re hardy people.” (laughs) We can get through this. Made me kind of proud to be Korean, I guess, in some ways.

(1:04:57) speaker_1: Another one of those adoptee things that I didn’t know, that my biological sister, we just never talked about it, had had all C-sections.

(1:05:05) speaker_1: And so that like, I didn’t know until it happened to me, that I should’ve known a C-section was coming for me.

(1:05:12) speaker_1: And that would’ve been kind of nicer maybe to have had a better understanding.

(1:05:17) speaker_0: Oh, you had a C-section?

(1:05:20) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:05:20) speaker_0: Is that a… Does that run in families?

(1:05:23) speaker_1: Yeah, apparently… Well, uh, for my Korean sister, yes. She said that that was something that had happened to her.

(1:05:30) speaker_1: And they, someone at our birthing book said that, “You should talk to your sister.” But I guess I just… I didn’t know.

(1:05:37) speaker_1: (laughs) That’s the way, it, it just didn’t come up. I should’ve asked her.

(1:05:40) speaker_1: I had a weird mental block, thinking like, you know, “I’m just gonna do it all naturally, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(1:05:46) speaker_1: ” But it was a pretty good indicator that I was gonna have one too.

(1:05:49) speaker_0: You know, uh, Alicia, you’re into cats, right?

(1:05:55) speaker_1: Very. (laughs)

(1:05:56) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:05:56) speaker_1: Or just my cat. (laughs)

(1:05:58) speaker_0: (laughs) That’s what I thought. So… And you know that adage about having nine lives? I feel like…

(1:06:04) speaker_0: Do you sometimes feel like you’re like a cat and you’ve had nine lives?

(1:06:08) speaker_1: Uh, yeah, I guess so. Does it seem like I’ve had nine lives? (laughs)

(1:06:13) speaker_0: You’ve had so many, yeah, different experiences and… Anyway, that’s… Maybe we’ll pick that up again.

(1:06:19) speaker_1: No, I like that, I like that you said that. Honestly, I feel sometimes that nobody knows me, I think, in some ways. Or that it’s hard to…

(1:06:28) speaker_1: It’s a little bit lonely, maybe sometimes to… And it… But also exciting, to think of some of the lives and experience I’ve lived.

(1:06:36) speaker_1: But lonely in the way that… It makes me sad too, that few people have carried over in my life to all of those lives.

(1:06:44) speaker_1: For example, even my Korean life, my, my sister Erica didn’t, and couldn’t really experience that with me.

(1:06:49) speaker_1: But she has experienced much of my other lives with me. But, you know, like, it, it can sometimes feel a bit lonely.

(1:06:57) speaker_1: But also, yeah, I feel really lucky and fortunate. I just hope it doesn’t mean I’m like a shape-shifter or something. (laughs) But I do feel……

(1:07:05) speaker_1: like I have lived many lives, yeah. Hmm. (instrumental music plays)

(1:07:20) speaker_0: Well, uh, you know, talking to Alicia, one of the things that we’re- when you were talk- when we were talking about Ruby is, um, we were talking about, like, you, you wa- you don’t wanna carry the traumas with you and have that be Ruby’s burden, and um, thing to, you know, have to go to therapy about, and her mom, and everything.

(1:07:39) speaker_0: But, uh, you know, it’s kind of like in a way is it like even just your f- like family preservation, you and little Ruby and Marco staying together, like that- eh- that’s work, right?

(1:07:56) speaker_0: It’s work, you know, migrant family, and also through language, culture, everything, but you’re- but the- it, you know, it’s the will to stay together.

(1:08:07) speaker_0: Is that like, um, your own kind of justice or, um, you know-

(1:08:16) speaker_1: That- just the actual like, um, organizational bits of us being a family are the things that are hard so that everything else can be easy, you know?

(1:08:25) speaker_1: Like the, you know, the emotional parts of a family and just the, the loving and the being here and the kind of understanding each other on a basic level is what’s easy and then maybe the rest they’ll get there.

(1:08:40) speaker_1:

(1:08:40) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. I heard this st- do you ever feel jealousy towards your daughter like she’s getting…

(1:08:46) speaker_1: No, not at all.

(1:08:48) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:08:48) speaker_1: Zero. Yeah. That she’s getting kind of like the love and support-

(1:08:53) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:08:53) speaker_1: … in some ways that I didn’t.

(1:08:54) speaker_0: Right.

(1:08:55) speaker_1: You know?

(1:08:55) speaker_0: With the family and ex-family.

(1:08:57) speaker_1: No. No. I just, all I wanna do is just give her the things, you know what I mean?

(1:09:02) speaker_1: I want, she’s got like a dad who loves her, who’s so pure hearted and kind and, and completely here for her and not th- you know, like, we’re living a very like non-gender role reality in our family, and I was like, “I like that so much for her,” and she laughs so much and receives so much love.

(1:09:21) speaker_1: And I, oh no, I think I would feel sad if she had to share all of that with a, a sibling.

(1:09:27) speaker_1: (laughs) But maybe she’ll curse us later and say like, “Why did you give me a brother?

(1:09:32) speaker_1: ” But I think just kind of like spoiling with her with love and letting her be like the protagonist in her childhood is what I want for her.

(1:09:41) speaker_1: And so, that’s, that’s maybe how I’m doing my retribution. But I’m not jealous because I created this for her, you know what I mean?

(1:09:49) speaker_1: Like, I’m doing this, I mad- I made this reality so that she could find this kind of joy and happiness. And I’m just proud of her and who she is.

(1:10:00) speaker_1: And no matter who she is, I’m proud of who she is and…

(1:10:04) speaker_0: Any, any last words you, or advice, or for adoptees who are going through it in Korea and (laughs) there’s…

(1:10:15) speaker_1: Yeah. You know, I wanted to say before like when you were saying you had a really rough first year, I’m really sorry.

(1:10:22) speaker_1: And I also had a really difficult first year. I think it was one of the loneliest times of my life.

(1:10:28) speaker_1: And I’m just really glad that I didn’t, mm, stop there and let that be the end.

(1:10:33) speaker_1: But I also had a different factor, and that was my Korean family that I, that motivated me to stay in some ways because I could go and see them every weekend, but that I needed to build my own life there.

(1:10:44) speaker_1: And I think once I finally stopped trying to be Korean and accept that I’m never gonna be Korean enough and I should just go back to being me, even if that made me feel that was complicated in some ways within like the white area, I have to be around like maybe white expats who acted like this way or treated Korea this way that I…

(1:11:06) speaker_1: In between all of that, I found my version of Korea, you know?

(1:11:10) speaker_1: It wasn’t perfect, but I found my version, the part that we’re all a bit like we know as Korean adoptees that we have this other race, this other part of ourselves, but we know that we need to be in Korea and to have that peace with our Korean selves too.

(1:11:23) speaker_1: And it took time. It takes time and try to learn the lang- language but just the best that you can, you know?

(1:11:30) speaker_1: And find the people that make you feel home and like yourself. It doesn’t matter what they look like.

(1:11:35) speaker_1: And keep trying and have those beautiful like peaceful moments in the countryside. Those are the best parts.

(1:11:41) speaker_1: And hiking, finding people who can take you hiking is the best.

(1:11:45) speaker_1: Uh, but I will, I just feel so grateful that someday I’m gonna take Ruby back to Korea and she’s gonna get to see this part of Korea through me that I already learned.

(1:11:56) speaker_1: And that’s really exciting, so.

(1:11:58) speaker_1: I just gr- appreciate you asking me these questions because, Carol Lee, I feel like s- the first part and this kind of like mark very different stages in my life.

(1:12:08) speaker_1: When I listened back to the first interview sometimes I thought, “What an old twat I was.” (laughs) So annoying.

(1:12:14) speaker_1: (laughs) So like hopefully I’ll think that about this version of me in a few years too.

(1:12:19) speaker_0: I love wha- where you are right now in your life. I love this and it’s…

(1:12:24) speaker_0: And, and you’re right, you know, these interviews like people are like, “Are you gonna revisit people?

(1:12:30) speaker_0: ” Because, or, you know, because people, people don’t stay the same and so it’s a point in time, and that’s not all who they are and all who they will become.

(1:12:38) speaker_0:

(1:12:38) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(1:12:39) speaker_0: And so, uh, I definitely am glad to r- you know, talk to you again and find out how your life has, has gone on, and you sound much more at peace a- with things.

(1:12:51) speaker_0:

(1:12:51) speaker_1: Thank you. I think maybe I don’t always realize it but I really am.

(1:12:56) speaker_1: And I don’t visit the woe is me kind of or how much it hurts places, but it’s not that I didn’t give those time and space ’cause I really did.

(1:13:06) speaker_1: I’m really grateful…. for that time and space. And I should also mention all of the therapy I did while in Korea.

(1:13:13) speaker_0: Oh, yes.

(1:13:14) speaker_1: Um… (laughs)

(1:13:14) speaker_0: Right.

(1:13:15) speaker_1: It was a lot. So, I am really grateful for that, and I’m so glad that I was able to get on to the next stage of my life as well, so.

(1:13:23) speaker_1: Emotionally, I mean, not just in terms of mom-ing or whatever, but, um, just emotionally to, to have space to just be in a different emotional place.

(1:13:34) speaker_1: So-

(1:13:35) speaker_0: Alicia, you’ve been such a special-

(1:13:36) speaker_1: Thank you.

(1:13:36) speaker_0: … person for the podcast too. It’s like a touchstone, sort of started with you and ending with you. So, I love that.

(1:13:43) speaker_1: Thank you.

(1:13:44) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:13:45) speaker_1: Thank you for giving us all s- a platform to hear ourselves and to hear each other, and you’re very special and I appreciate you and I would love to hear the episode again that I, where you talk about your story.

(1:13:58) speaker_1: I think I, I tried to find it recently and couldn’t, so you’ll have to let me know where I can listen to it.

(1:14:02) speaker_0: Okay. Um, if people wanna, if people wanna write you or follow you or, how can they do it?

(1:14:09) speaker_1: Uh, yeah. You can…

(1:14:10) speaker_1: I’m not very active on Instagram anymore in terms of posting, but I’m still there lurking in the corners watching things I probably-

(1:14:17) speaker_0: Oh. (laughs)

(1:14:18) speaker_1: (laughs) That probably don’t make me feel great about myself. So @soonalicia. So just my name inverted, Soonalicia, on Instagram.

(1:14:26) speaker_1: And happy to talk to other adoptees and hear what’s going on with them and fielding questions or please, I would love to have a Korean adoptee-

(1:14:34) speaker_7: Wee. Yeah.

(1:14:34) speaker_1: … circle started by me-

(1:14:36) speaker_7: Wee.

(1:14:36) speaker_1: … in Spain, so please come. (laughs)

(1:14:37) speaker_0: Yeah. Okay.

(1:14:39) speaker_1: We’d love other Korean adoptees.

(1:14:40) speaker_0: Uh, let’s, let’s meet up maybe in Korea some day or some thing. I would love to.

(1:14:46) speaker_1: I would love that. (instrumental music plays)

(1:15:02) speaker_0: First, I wanna say a special thank you to Alicia for sharing and reflecting so deeply, and for interviewing me for my own episode.

(1:15:11) speaker_0: I wanna thank you for your enduring friendship, even if we don’t communicate often.

(1:15:16) speaker_0: And thank you for inspiring me along the way, first in how you lived your life in Korea, and now, how you choose to deal with your pain and your determination that it not be Ruby’s to carry.

(1:15:28) speaker_0: I say this at the end of every episode, but this podcast would not be what it has become without the financial support of all the past and present supporters on Patreon, Kickstarter, and our T-shirt fundraiser.

(1:15:44) speaker_0: The funding allowed me to pay for things like podcast hosting, graphic design apps, website hosting, Korean translation, and for some episodes to be transcribed into text.

(1:15:57) speaker_0: I’ll keep the Patreon open for a little while in case folks wanna continue to donate towards continued website hosting.

(1:16:05) speaker_0: The plan is to have the website continue in perpetuity as a resource for our community and for those who love us.

(1:16:13) speaker_0: A special heartfelt thanks to the Korean translators, 이호형 in Seoul, 정근황 on Jeju, and 유근정 in Michigan. Their work can be found at the website adaptedpodcast.com.

(1:16:29) speaker_0: If you would like to drop a note, I’m at kaomig@gmail.com. This concludes the podcast and our amazing eight-year run.

(1:16:41) speaker_0: I couldn’t be prouder of the stories people shared and the courage it took to do so.

(1:16:47) speaker_0: I hope this podcast has helped you to process your own adoption story and to evolve in your life with grace, knowledge, and in peace.

(1:16:59) speaker_0: As Alicia so aptly reminds us, “We are not our trauma. Our lives are much bigger and hopeful than that.” In peace, I’m Kaomi Lee.

(1:18:38) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays)

Korean-American cultural anthropologist and scholar Eleana Kim (UC Irvine) talks about her research and observations in writing her seminal book, “Adopted Territory: Transnational Korean Adoptees and the Politics of Belonging” (Duke University Press, 2010).

Audio available on August 16, 2024 at 9:00 am CST.

Geoffrey Winder (Jeong Kae-bin) (he/him), 42, of Oakland, CA, shares some of his story as a queer Black Korean transnational and transracial adopted man and about his activism in queer advocacy, adoptee community, education justice and leadership spaces.

Audio available Friday, August 2, 2024.

(0:00:09) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 24 starts now. This is a podcast that since 2016 has centered the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:23) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of our lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.

(0:00:32) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families, and society that expects only a feel-good story.

(0:00:43) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.

(0:00:48) speaker_1: My mom, like, went through, like, a whole, I don’t know, like, long, like, a day or j- a day or of crying, and then she, you know, she’s like, “Oh, you’re never gonna have grandkid,” or, “I’m never gonna have grandkids, you’re never gonna have kids.

(0:01:00) speaker_1: ” And then she had like this moment and she said, “Well, I guess you could adopt.”

(0:01:05) speaker_0: This next conversation is with Jeffrey Winder, a Black-Korean trans-racially and trans-nationally adopted person.

(0:01:13) speaker_0: He’s dedicated his life’s work to queer advocacy and co-leadership spaces. Now, here’s Jeffrey.

(0:01:31) speaker_1: Great. My name is Jeffrey Winder. Um, my middle name is Kevin, and my name on my birth certificate is Jong Kebin.

(0:01:42) speaker_1: Um, and I am, uh, I use he, him, his pronouns, and I’m on Ohlone land here in Oakland, California, and I’m 42.

(0:01:52) speaker_0: So, um, Jeffrey, where do you wanna, wanna, wanna start? Do you wanna talk a little bit about yourself and we can go from there?

(0:02:01) speaker_1: Sure. Um, well, I, I was born in Seoul, South Korea in, in 1982.

(0:02:07) speaker_1: Um, and I was, uh, I spent the first year and a half of my life in a orphanage in Seoul, and then I was adopted to the United States, um, to a white family who lived in Colorado.

(0:02:23) speaker_1: And I, uh, grew up in Davis, California.

(0:02:26) speaker_1: Um, so after I, I came to Colorado, I, uh, the family moved, uh, to California, and I spent most of my, um, well, all of my, my schooling years in California and most of my, uh, adult, uh, years.

(0:02:43) speaker_1: Um, I currently live in Oakland, California, and I’ve been here for about 16 years.

(0:02:51) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, I’ve s- most recently, um, or sort of most notably I think in my professional work, uh, served as the co-executive director of, of the Genders and Sexualities Alliance Network, formerly the Gay Straight Alliance Network.

(0:03:05) speaker_1: Um, and we u- we work with high school, or I used to, I guess, work with high school LGBT youth clubs.

(0:03:12) speaker_1: Um, and that’s how I got my start in activism actually, is that I started the high school GSA at Davis High School.

(0:03:20) speaker_0: Um, how gratifying has this work been?

(0:03:24) speaker_1: Um, I, I don’t know how, uh, people, you know, feel if they’ve done their calling, but I think that’s as close to, um, you know, as it, uh, close to the feeling as I can describe it, is that I feel like I did, uh, the work I was supposed to do in the sort of very bizarre circumstances that, you know, was my beginning and existence.

(0:03:50) speaker_1:

(0:03:50) speaker_0: Sure, sure. Okay. Um, when you were in high school at Davis, um, were you out? And, and what was the environment like for, for queer kids?

(0:04:02) speaker_1: Yeah. So it was, um, 1998, 1999-ish, so I guess, uh, still in the last century, um, or the previous century. And, uh, I, uh, was out.

(0:04:15) speaker_1: I came out when I was 15, uh, to like some sort of close friends, and then I came out 16, uh, publicly when I started the, the GSA club.

(0:04:27) speaker_1: Um, and when I started it, there was no other out kids at the school. Um, and I was the only out, uh, student.

(0:04:35) speaker_1: Um, uh, uh, and then, so for my whole sort of high school career, I was the only out male student.

(0:04:42) speaker_1: Um, and the club, uh, the club, uh, dealt with sort of the things that you would imagine a club dealing with in the early sort of, um, start of the LGBT rights, uh, you know, fights.

(0:04:58) speaker_1: Um, and so it was, it was l- I mean, it was homophobia and it was also a sort of very supportive school administration that, uh, I don’t know if they saw the value in the club or they just were, you know, sick and tired of me harassing them, but, um, supported a lot of the activities that the club did to bring awareness and, and education to students around LGBTQ issues.

(0:05:20) speaker_1:

(0:05:20) speaker_0: So you were really kind of a pioneer in your school.

(0:05:24) speaker_1: Uh, uh, I mean, I guess in many ways, yes. It was also, you know, a majority white school. I think there was eight Black students in my graduating class.

(0:05:34) speaker_1: Um, and yeah, so I think in many ways my existence there was an anomaly and perhaps pioneering also.

(0:05:42) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. So you were ad- you were adopted by white parents who settled in a primarily white area, right? (laughs)

(0:05:53) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:05:53) speaker_0: That-

(0:05:54) speaker_1: Although-

(0:05:54) speaker_0: That sounds very familiar. (laughs)

(0:05:54) speaker_1: … although it was California (laughs).

(0:05:56) speaker_1: Yeah, luckily it was California, and so, you know, when the students were in session at UC Davis, at least (laughs) there was a bunch of, you know, 20-something Asian people around.

(0:06:05) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:06:05) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How did you, uh…

(0:06:08) speaker_0: With your identities at that time, were you- uh, you know, it’s a time of, you know, you’re- you’re trying to try on different identities too.

(0:06:18) speaker_0: Um, but for you, like, being also biracial and, uh, coming out, you know, as- as, uh, queer, um, I wondered if one identity kind of took over at that moment?

(0:06:35) speaker_0:

(0:06:35) speaker_1: You know, I think for me, uh, well, so I- I grew up in California and I did go to a Korean school when I was younger.

(0:06:44) speaker_1: Um, and it was the adoptee version of Korean school though. It wasn’t like really hardcore Korean school.

(0:06:52) speaker_1: Um, but I did sort of have a- a general sense of a Koreanness identity when I was younger, growing up as somebody who, uh, you know, really didn’t have a group where anybody looked like me, um, and never really had any other sort of- sort of conversations about my identity with my parents, um, in substance outside of being Kor- you know, being adopted from Korea.

(0:07:17) speaker_1: Um, and I also have a sister who is also adopted from Korea, and she’s also half Korean and she’s half Latina.

(0:07:26) speaker_1: Um, but as I- so and sort of in my navigation of- of, you know, growing up, um, m- didn’t really feel like outside of my own, you know, personal sense that folks either saw me as Korean or included me when they thought about, you know, Asian people.

(0:07:43) speaker_1: Um, and so in high school when I, um…

(0:07:46) speaker_1: Well, I guess I would say that coming out and- and being queer sort of gave me a whole new way to understand sort of a hybrid identity and sort of multiplicity of existence and- and duality or I mean, not even duality, but just sort of fluidity, uh, in- in identity.

(0:08:04) speaker_1: And- and so, um, you know, being queer, uh, gave me a whole new way of thinking about myself outside of sort of the racial categories that I didn’t fit into, um, and sort of in queer spaces, sort of race wasn’t the predominant, you know, unifying thing about the space.

(0:08:24) speaker_1: And so, um, you know, found sort of, uh, ease and comfort in being a mixed race person in a queer space that wasn’t focused on…

(0:08:33) speaker_1: You know, there was a space that wasn’t sort of- uh, a social space that wasn’t based around racial identity.

(0:08:40) speaker_1: Um, and then sort of as I went to college and really sort of…

(0:08:43) speaker_1: And- and I went to college in New York at NYU and sort of going to a place where I was much more racialized as a Black person in this- in sort of spaces and, yeah, in everyday life that I sort of really began to more fully understand and- and…

(0:08:59) speaker_1: Yeah, um, I wouldn’t s- yeah, I- I- I wouldn’t say em- embrace as in I wasn’t embracing it before, but- but seeing my Blackness as a source of- of strength in my identity, like all of the other components.

(0:09:13) speaker_1: Um, and so I guess now, you know, I identify as a multiracial queer person of color, um, or as a- as a Black Korean queer person, and I feel like, yeah, have a good sense of sort of how all of those components make up myself- make myself who I am now, um, but I think that was definitely a journey over sort of my whole- whole, you know, into my a- adulthood.

(0:09:39) speaker_1:

(0:09:39) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:09:40) speaker_0: So, oh, so, so like your queer identity was kind of the first, um, place of comfort and strength that you inhabited, and then later when you were in New York and really coming into your identity as, you know, as Black and then the Korean or Asian part came later?

(0:10:03) speaker_0:

(0:10:03) speaker_1: Oh, that was sort of the beg- that was the sort of the beginning part. So-

(0:10:07) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:10:08) speaker_1: …

(0:10:08) speaker_1: um, sort of my elementary identity, um, and sort of up until I came out, you know, sort of the only other sort of identity I had was sort of related to being Korean and going to Korean school and, you know, learning, um, Korean in- in the way that they teach, uh, Korean to adoptees.

(0:10:26) speaker_1: And, um, so yeah, so that’d be- so sort of my identity was really around Koreanness, but not really because it wasn’t…

(0:10:35) speaker_1: It was like rooted in the imagination of Korea, um, and Koreanness, and then I came out as queer, and I think after that have sort of been able to interrogate and unearth sort of more sort of authentically what Koreanness means to me and being kr- you know, being a- a Black queer Korean adoptee.

(0:10:55) speaker_1: Um, yeah.

(0:10:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Can you talk more about that? What- what does being a Black Korean, um, mean to you?

(0:11:04) speaker_1: Um, you know, for me, I- I spent a lot of time in- in college, I think maybe like a lot of people, uh, trying to figure out what, um, what is the, yeah, what is the purpose or why or how did I come to be, uh, as I was.

(0:11:19) speaker_1: And so, you know, for me, I see it as, um, part of the story of Korea, it’s part of the story of the Cold War, it’s part of the story of, yeah, the legacy of- of the- the war on Korea and- and it being a place where the US has a large military presence to this day.

(0:11:39) speaker_1: Um, and I see my story as linked to sort of the story of- of colonized peoples everywhere that, you know, um, army and/or, uh, you know, whatever we call our- our forces in Korea, um, is stationed there and the sort of economies and/or ways in which that impacts the local population.

(0:12:04) speaker_1: Um, and so sort of in the tradition of war babies around-…

(0:12:08) speaker_1: the world throughout time, um, is sort of how I fix my own sort of, you know, coming into existence.

(0:12:15) speaker_1: And then sort of my role or my, my sort of presence as a person who, who claims, uh, you know, some, some corner or, or shred of Koreanness as part of their, um, lineage and legacy that it’s linked to this much larger sort of, and still obviously related to the sort of geopolitics of the time, um, industrialized adoption industry that Korea utilized to sort of cement its, its, you know, partnership with the United States.

(0:12:52) speaker_1: And so, sort of in my work in the world and as my, you know, as m- as a person trying to, you know, have an identity that makes sense to themselves, um, I sort of see my, my role or my i- my, my life and my identity as part of a way in which, um, as a, like, species of humans we’re moving to a more mixed raced, and I guess, you know, whatever race is a construction.

(0:13:26) speaker_1: People have been mixed throughout time. But, um, sort of a, a, a more mixed, uh, sort of geo-global citizentry, citizentry.

(0:13:36) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:13:36) speaker_1: Um, yeah.

(0:13:37) speaker_0: Yeah. Moving less, less kind of black and white, you know, binary in that way.

(0:13:44) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:13:45) speaker_0: Yeah. Um, what, what was it like having… I mean, I suppose the, the only parents you know, you know, but I’m sure people…

(0:13:52) speaker_0: Do people ask you what was it like having white parents and… Um…

(0:13:58) speaker_1: Yeah. And I’ve reflected a lot on that too. I mean, you know, a lot of my work has been around identity.

(0:14:04) speaker_1: You know, my work at GSA Network was around helping LGBTQ youth form their sort of positive, um, self-identities.

(0:14:13) speaker_1: And so, yeah, I mean, I think that it’s also in sort of reflection and conversation with other adoptees who’ve had other types of white parents.

(0:14:22) speaker_1: I had just really odd, odd white people for parents. Um-

(0:14:27) speaker_0: Odd? Okay.

(0:14:29) speaker_1: Yes. In terms of, uh, they were just sort of counter-culture in a very subdued way.

(0:14:36) speaker_1: Um, they weren’t like hippies or anything like that, but they weren’t Christians, you know.

(0:14:44) speaker_1: I, I got adopted by folks who, uh, raised us as atheists or as agnostics.

(0:14:50) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(0:14:50) speaker_1: But we really had no pressure from reli- religion to be any sort of way.

(0:14:56) speaker_1: Um, my mom was, is, uh, or was a speech and language pathologist, um, and worked with elementary students.

(0:15:03) speaker_1: And then my dad was a, uh, biochemist and environmental scientist.

(0:15:10) speaker_1: And so, um, sort of a very intellectualized upbringing, um, in terms of, yeah, just sort of the topics that we talked about, the ways in which I think they thought about race.

(0:15:23) speaker_1: Um, you know, they, they enrolled us in Korean school. My mom went to Korean school also to try to learn Korean. Um-

(0:15:31) speaker_0: Wow.

(0:15:32) speaker_1: Uh, there were things sort of around the house.

(0:15:34) speaker_1: I mean, my mom, uh, (laughs) subscribed to, to Essence and Ebony Magazine, and I think I asked her at one point, like, “Why do we even have these, you know, magazines?

(0:15:43) speaker_1: ” And she’s like, “Well, I just wanted you there to be like, you know, positive images of Black people in the house and, um, you know, things that you could read that were about Black people.

(0:15:52) speaker_1: ” And I had, you know… It was just, like, that was in my house, and I had never really thought too much about it.

(0:15:57) speaker_1: But yeah, like, think that was like a conscious effort on her part.

(0:16:01) speaker_1: Um, so yeah, I think there’s just ways in which they were, like, yeah, odd, but in a good way.

(0:16:09) speaker_1: Um, and so I think that growing up in that environment, you know, I think if, if they had had a language around race, they would have utilized it, right?

(0:16:18) speaker_1: And if, if they had, you know, had sort of the language we have now around race and whiteness, that, that would’ve been a part of our conversations.

(0:16:26) speaker_1: But it, but it wasn’t, and they were, like, using the tools that they, they had, and this is sort of pre-internet.

(0:16:32) speaker_0: Yeah. You know, people talk now. I mean, uh, when I was growing up w- you know, we didn’t have words like intersectionality.

(0:16:40) speaker_1: Right. Exactly. (laughs)

(0:16:41) speaker_0: (laughs) So would your parents talk about race, or is it just something they, they, um, wouldn’t talk about, but it was sort of like they were aware?

(0:16:52) speaker_1: So, I mean, yes. It was never like a, a question that we, you know…

(0:16:56) speaker_1: Like, we never pr- they never tried to have us pretend we were white, or we weren’t not white, or, you know, that we were not Korean.

(0:17:04) speaker_1: Um, but I think they just didn’t have the language that we have now to talk about identity and difference in a way that would make sense to, to us as kids.

(0:17:14) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, this is like the ’80s, and so a sort of a, you know, a lot of the terms that we have now to, you know…

(0:17:23) speaker_1: Because of queer folks, because of feminists, because of feminists of color, um, have to talk about identity just weren’t available to them.

(0:17:30) speaker_1: And, you know, they were smart, but they didn’t study, like, you know, race or critical race theory as (laughs) you know, students.

(0:17:38) speaker_1: So, um, uh, you know, my mom sort of in the 2020 uprisings sort of was in the reading all of the things about whiteness and White privilege.

(0:17:46) speaker_1: And I think, um, you know, she, she had a talk with me a- and Nicole.

(0:17:51) speaker_1: We talked and, and, and sort of, yeah, had her own epiphanies around how maybe she could have done something differently or better.

(0:18:00) speaker_1: But, you know, to my mind, um, yeah, they, they never, you know, made us feel bad about any part of our identity.

(0:18:08) speaker_1: And so, yeah, to me that was (laughs) a win.

(0:18:13) speaker_0: Yeah, so they’re ver- they were, um, cognizant of their own White privilege.

(0:18:17) speaker_1: Uh, I’d- I- I- I think that they were, but they didn’t have the language around White privilege. So, um, like-

(0:18:24) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:18:24) speaker_1: … they would try to…

(0:18:26) speaker_1: Yes, but I think that they were because obviously we would be out and about and people would say things, and they would have to engage with other White people about why they had White kids, and we would be there watching them do that or, um, yeah, like, that, that, uh, you know, I would be…

(0:18:43) speaker_1: Yes, I would be experiencing some situation one way and then my mom, my Wi- White mom would show up, and then the situation would change, and then we would sort of joke about how, you know, thank goodness she’s- she was there, which was really thank goodness she was White.

(0:18:59) speaker_1:

(0:18:59) speaker_0: Did you, um… Like a lot of transracial adoptees, you know, did…

(0:19:04) speaker_0: I’m sure there’s- there was some uncomfortable or, you know, kind of awkward moments with your parents, um, when you’re out in public.

(0:19:12) speaker_1: Yes. I mean, and particularly ’cause we were both, you know… Be… My- me and my sister both multi- mixed-raced, um, uh, Korean, um, adoptees.

(0:19:23) speaker_1: So, we didn’t really fit into racial categories that people were easily able to identify, which also caused some sort of l- awkward conversations.

(0:19:33) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, I think that the… I, I mean, I… You know. So, th- so they were odd. And so the whole situation was just odd.

(0:19:42) speaker_1: Like, my dad, you know, grew up in Colorado, but he refused to wear long pants any time of the year. So like he… You know. There’d be times where…

(0:19:51) speaker_1: And this is, like, more when I was a little kid and we were still in Colorado, but, you know, he’d wear shorts in the winter.

(0:19:57) speaker_1: So it’d be like a, a White guy with shorts on with these two Brown kids in the middle of the snow, and people really thought, like, he was crazy or like he…

(0:20:07) speaker_1: you know, something was, like, totally off about this situation (laughs) of why there’s these two kids with a man in shorts in the middle of the winter.

(0:20:14) speaker_1: Um, and so I think that there’s definitely been like, uh, places where, um, the sort of dynamics of the family overall were just wacky and then that’s layered upon or, like, within the context of us being adopted.

(0:20:32) speaker_1: So, you know, sometimes it’s hard to tell, you know, what was the reason that people, like, stopped and gawked, you know?

(0:20:50) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays) You know, I think it got, you know, different as we got older.

(0:20:56) speaker_1: But there was definitely times when, you know, because I would have curly hair, people would touch my hair or be like in- in our space as like, uh, you know, like little, um, I don’t know, amusements or- or like a…

(0:21:13) speaker_1: What is, what is the, what is the word I’m looking for?

(0:21:17) speaker_1: Um, accessories, uh, that I don’t think, you know, my- my White parents knew how to navigate or- or did navigate in terms of like trying to mitigate that.

(0:21:30) speaker_1:

(0:21:30) speaker_0: How do you feel now about transracial adoption or, you know, uh, White folks adopting kids of color?

(0:21:37) speaker_1: I mean, I- I guess I- I don’t necessarily support it as, you know, the sort of number one go-to solution, um, for, uh, orphans of color, kids of color without, um, families.

(0:21:56) speaker_1: I do feel like there’s way more tools now and that there could potentially be White folks who did the kind of work that would be necessary to be able to do that.

(0:22:08) speaker_1: But I think generally as sort of White quips…

(0:22:11) speaker_1: Why White qui- White folks come equipped, um, sort of with their basic tools is not something that I would support as like a healthy thing for, yeah, trans- transracial adoptees, um.

(0:22:26) speaker_1: I mean, even sort of in, uh, international, you know, transnational aside, it’s, you know, not really something that I was- I’m supportive of.

(0:22:34) speaker_1: Um, and I do… Yeah, I do feel conflicted about that because obviously I have a life and a- and a story that would have never been possible.

(0:22:45) speaker_1: And I also, yeah, remember what it was like to be so confused and alone psy- sort of psychologically and emotionally as a child.

(0:22:55) speaker_0: You were psychologically alone. Did they… Did you feel like there was love there?

(0:23:02) speaker_1: Um, I mean, I definitely, I- I definitely do. And I… You know.

(0:23:06) speaker_1: My- my father passed away in 2010, and it wasn’t actually until he- he passed away that I realized that, like, you know, it was, uh… You know.

(0:23:14) speaker_1: I loved them and- and- and, you know, no doubt that they loved me.

(0:23:18) speaker_1: Um, but I think for- for me, the larger question was like whether or not I loved them or if the sort of, you know, whatever that feeling is that you have as a adoptee of- of so…

(0:23:31) speaker_1: you know. I don’t know if it’s actually a feeling or if it’s a implied sort of, uh, emotion of- of gratitude as the sort of substitute for love.

(0:23:41) speaker_1: But, uh, yeah, I think after- after he passed away, I felt like I- I was…

(0:23:46) speaker_1: Yeah, I was convinced that- that it was a- a loving situation and that it was a love that was more profound than sort of a feeling of- of gratitude.

(0:23:56) speaker_0: And your mother’s still alive?

(0:23:59) speaker_1: Yes. Uh, yeah, she’s still alive.

(0:24:01) speaker_0: Okay. Do you have a relationship with her?

(0:24:04) speaker_1: Um, yes. It- it changed after my father died, but, um, I do. And, you know, we talk regularly. Um, I- I think that, uh… You know.

(0:24:15) speaker_1: My sister has kids and a family, so she’s sort of more involved with- with that.

(0:24:23) speaker_1: Um-And, uh, yeah, she sort of had her own, uh, new life to build after my father died and so has been in her, her second, uh, (laughs) second or third adventure, I don’t know, uh, what, what you’d call it, but, um…

(0:24:39) speaker_1: So it’s different, but it’s definitely, uh, you know, a relationship that’s still there and that I, I care to maintain.

(0:24:48) speaker_0: You know, they adopted two, uh, multiracial children-

(0:24:55) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:55) speaker_0: … from Korea. I wonder was there, was that on, was that, um, uh, on purpose? I mean, had, did they set out to…

(0:25:06) speaker_1: Well, they didn’t initially with me, but then after they got me, they said, and this was like many years later that I found out, that they had tried to find another Korean and Black, um, child to adopt so that I would have a sibling that looked like me.

(0:25:21) speaker_1: Uh, um, but, you know, they, they, I don’t know, they couldn’t or it didn’t work out that way, but that was also why they adopted another multiracial Korean child.

(0:25:31) speaker_1:

(0:25:32) speaker_0: Okay. Yeah, I wonder why they were interested in specifically Korean and Black.

(0:25:37) speaker_1: Well, I don’t think they were.

(0:25:38) speaker_1: Um, I think that was the, you know, the baby that was sent over by the orphanage, you know, the picture that was sent over by the orphanage and I think they were just gonna take the first one probably.

(0:25:49) speaker_1: Um, and so, uh, initially it wasn’t. I, I think they were just looking to do a, you know, just a Korean adoption like it was being advertised at the time.

(0:25:59) speaker_1: And then after, yeah, after they got me was when they decided to have another multiracial or adopt another multiracial Korean child.

(0:26:10) speaker_0: Okay. Okay. Um, was it hard for you to come out to them?

(0:26:14) speaker_1: Well, you know, in my mind it was, but in the grand scheme of coming out, it’s, uh, fairly easy and non-existent thing.

(0:26:25) speaker_1: Um, I think the only sort of thing that still stands out to me to this day is that my mom, like, went through, like, a whole, I don’t know, like, long, like, a day or s- a day or of crying, um, and, and, you know, finally after I, like, decided to talk to her again, um, asked me what she was crying about and then sh- you know, she’s like, she’s like, “Oh, you’re never gonna have grandkid…

(0:26:48) speaker_1: ” Or, “I’m never gonna have grandkids. You’re never gonna have kids.” And then she had, like, this moment and she said, “Well, I guess you could adopt.

(0:26:55) speaker_1: ” Um, and so that was just a little bit like a, “Oh, okay” moment. But, um, yeah, I found that as a, as one of the, sort of, or the most remarkable thing.

(0:27:06) speaker_1: I think my dad was a non-reaction and not in a negative way, but in a, like, “I’ll support you doing whatever you wanna do.

(0:27:13) speaker_1: ” And that was also at the time when I was trying to get more involved in LGBT activism and, and sort of join GSA Network, the organization that I, um, was the co-executive director of, um, you know, in my, my sophomore year and spent sort of three years doing sort of hard, well, I guess it was, was hardcore, but for being a queer youth, it, it felt hardcore, um, sort of youth organizing to try to get more students to start their GSA clubs in California.

(0:27:43) speaker_1: And so I was traveling a lot and doing sort of a lot of publicly facing LGBT stuff and both of them were very, you know, encouraging and supportive of, of that, I think, just because they saw the transformation, sort of, in me from being a really very angry and depressed, um, yeah, uh, adolescent to channeling my emotions into something positive, I guess.

(0:28:08) speaker_1:

(0:28:10) speaker_0: It, in high schools in California right now, are, are there GSA clubs in, in all the high schools?

(0:28:17) speaker_1: Um, not all of them. I think it’s about 60% of them.

(0:28:20) speaker_1: And, you know, that’s, uh, you know, that’s probably close to, like, uh, now I’m gonna totally mess up my numbers, but I, you know, that’s probably around f- five, 500 or 600 individual school, high schools.

(0:28:34) speaker_1:

(0:28:35) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:28:35) speaker_1: Um, and when I started my GSA club and joined the, the network, our, our GSA was number 40, so, um-

(0:28:43) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:28:44) speaker_1: … you know, ours was real- mine, the, mine was really early on and, you know, you’re still running all this 25 years later.

(0:28:52) speaker_1: Um, and, and, and that was, like, the very beginning of this, sort of, yeah, this movement across California and of the country to, to build these clubs for, for LGBT students.

(0:29:04) speaker_1:

(0:29:04) speaker_0: Sounds like it might have been a bit lonely.

(0:29:09) speaker_1: Um, you know, I think that it could have been, but because I…

(0:29:14) speaker_1: You know, I think, well, uh, like I, I, I’m reflecting back on it and I’ve just, like, I, I would never have been that outgoing or, like, or I, you know, in my, I guess, my old age, uh, I don’t feel like I was, I’m as outgoing or risk-taking or gregarious as I was then.

(0:29:33) speaker_1: But then, um, I mean, it was like, uh, maybe like an exciting loneliness. Um, it wasn’t, I guess, a loneliness where I felt like it was gonna…

(0:29:46) speaker_1: Like, I, maybe it felt, it was the feeling was, like, I was, I was working to end the loneliness is maybe what I’m trying to describe.

(0:29:52) speaker_1: Like, it didn’t feel lonely, but if I think back on it, you know, uh, or, like, just analyze the situation, it would be a lonely situation.

(0:30:01) speaker_0: Did you… Sometimes, um, we, we adoptees talk about just, um, having this, uh, hole or this void that you can’t fill.

(0:30:16) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:30:18) speaker_0: Did you experience that?

(0:30:19) speaker_1: Um, I think not in the same, same way, because I saw my sister sort of experience it and, you know, that was very much, like, driven by her need to do her search….

(0:30:30) speaker_1: and to figure out sort of her mom’s story, and as a result, her story.

(0:30:37) speaker_1: And for me, um, y- you know, what I, I think what, what that was filled by was sort of, or s- or, or, um, sort of subsumed under was the sort of being in the closet around queerness and, you know, trying to figure out my, who I was as like a, yeah, like as a, as a non-heterosexual person.

(0:31:04) speaker_1: I mean, obviously, I didn’t have this language as a child, but, you know, I think the, the feeling of difference was so profound in so many ways that it’s hard for me to tell what that was apart from sort of the larger, um, totality of, of feeling othered and different sort of in, yeah, in my (laughs) in, in the total of my identities.

(0:31:31) speaker_1:

(0:31:31) speaker_0: Right. Okay. When you went to New York, NYU, I mean, it must have just been mind-blowing-

(0:31:38) speaker_1: Uh, i- i- i- it-

(0:31:40) speaker_0: … at that time.

(0:31:41) speaker_1: Well, (laughs).

(0:31:43) speaker_0: (laughs).

(0:31:43) speaker_1: That’s a- Well, because I’m only making that weird, uh, noise because the first day of NYU was actually 9/11, um, so-

(0:31:50) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(0:31:51) speaker_1: … it was, uh, yes, um, in many ways a m- life-altering experience.

(0:31:58) speaker_1: Um, and yeah, I mean, uh, uh, New York, I think, was really where I felt my, um, like different racial identities more acutely, sort of as I moved through different neighborhoods or was in different areas of the city sort of the way I was racialized, um, was different, right?

(0:32:18) speaker_1: And so it could be someone asking me if I speak English and where I’m from, you know, in one area and people like following me around to the store and telling me to take off my, you know, hood on my hoodie in another-

(0:32:33) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:32:33) speaker_1: … area.

(0:32:34) speaker_1: So that I think was one of the sort of more, yeah, unique and like revealing experiences that I had in New York around my identity, was just having it so sort of starkly different, the ways that people were interpreting how I looked or, or what they saw when they looked at me.

(0:32:52) speaker_1:

(0:32:52) speaker_0: You know, I lived in New York for, um, seven years, and, uh, one of the things that surprised me about that experience is, you know, I thought, “Okay, it’s the melting pot,” or you go and there’s this, you, you can-

(0:33:07) speaker_1: Right. (laughs)

(0:33:08) speaker_0: What I didn’t realize is, you know, or what I didn’t expect is, you know, all the racial tension.

(0:33:15) speaker_1: Right, and how segregated it is sort of within-

(0:33:18) speaker_0: Or like-

(0:33:18) speaker_1: … the micro-neighborhoods, uh.

(0:33:19) speaker_0: Right, like if you’re in Harlem and people, you know, racial slurs against me, you know, if they saw me, “Go back to China,” or, you know.

(0:33:28) speaker_0: And then I can imagine there’s probably tension towards, uh, Black folks in-

(0:33:34) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:33:34) speaker_0: … Chinatown or Asian communities.

(0:33:36) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:33:36) speaker_0: You know?

(0:33:36) speaker_1: Right, or even in an Asian market, yeah. I mean, yeah.

(0:33:40) speaker_1: So c- all of the, all of the ways in which (laughs) racialized dynamics in the cityscape played out was definitely, I think, sort of experienced sort of through my, you know, my body, my, my identity, and I think that’s, yeah, I think that’s one of the ways that actually helped me really come to understand my identity in relationship to the world and how other people experienced my identity.

(0:34:07) speaker_1: Um, and I don’t know if I would have gotten that if I hadn’t gone to a, a city like New York where it was sort of so, so uniquely different in different areas depending on where you were in the city.

(0:34:17) speaker_1:

(0:34:17) speaker_0: Yeah. How did you find your place in New York?

(0:34:20) speaker_1: Um, well, I guess, you know, I, I, I went to New York imagining that I was gonna study queer theory and sort of continue the work I had been doing in high school, which was really sort of building sort of the LGBT youth movement.

(0:34:37) speaker_1: Um, and then, uh, I had also joined like a, a, I don’t know what, we had a horrible name, like B- BAYMSA? BLAYMSA?

(0:34:48) speaker_1: It’s like the Bi and Mixed Race Student Alliance or something, um, and-

(0:34:55) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:34:55) speaker_1: …

(0:34:55) speaker_1: uh, was, you know, thinking about doing some work there, and then, uh, it was also, like I said, you know, 9/11 had happened, and so really a lot of my activism and sort of my community became the sort of anti-war activist, um, community, uh, that was, was, you know, formed out of sort of NYU students, but also much broader, obviously.

(0:35:19) speaker_1: And, um-

(0:35:22) speaker_0: Anti-militarism?

(0:35:23) speaker_1: Yep.

(0:35:23) speaker_1: Uh, sort of all of the, all of the, you know, and sort of my o- my own understanding of sort of, uh, military empire, the US hegemony, and sort of all of the things that, you know, I talked about earlier, my understanding of, of, of the Cold War and, and how Korean adoptees came to be, um, was sort of built during that time when I was building my understanding about how sort of, yes, h- you know, how did even 9/11 happen and oh, okay, now I’m looking at all of these other policies and it’s become this whole now long legacy of (laughs) of, uh, whatever you wanna call it, uh, military exploitation and conquest.

(0:36:07) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, the, the, the community that I developed sort of there was really built around a political identity.

(0:36:15) speaker_1: And so in that space, you know, my, my racial identity and my queerness were sort of even, sort of even less relevant, um, and that like the, the sort of, sort of need to still be or still try to find a way to, um……

(0:36:35) speaker_1: yeah, validate or, or be authentic to who I, who I, who I am and my history and my, you know, my current political sort of orientations was sort of always there.

(0:36:45) speaker_1: And I don’t think I really found like a, a place place till I got to, to Oakland.

(0:36:51) speaker_1: Um, and that was sort of when it felt like I could see, you know, Black and Asian couples and I could see Black and Asian babies that it felt like, “Oh, okay, there’s like a place for my like,” the, yeah, where the presentation of my identity or my identity, um, could make sense to people who look at me as, you know, (laughs) who, who look at me.

(0:37:11) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:37:12) speaker_0: Yeah, um, that’s just really profound.

(0:37:15) speaker_0: I mean, in your own body you kind of embody the, you know, like the ideas you were talking about, the militarism, um, colonialism or, um, conquest, (laughs) imperialism.

(0:37:30) speaker_0:

(0:37:31) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:37:31) speaker_0: Um, that’s ver- just very profound, um, to, uh, become a, an activist in that space.

(0:37:40) speaker_1: Y- I, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think that, you know, em- also to just like help me sorta understand the, the context in which sort of South Koreans live in, the whole peninsula, just the way in which, um, you know, our voice as adoptees but sort of particularly the voice of Black, Black Korean folks has its own, own place and resonance in terms of what the legacy is and sort of what Korea got the, the sort of military presence and also of the sort of cultural racism and ways in which white supremacy, you know, permeates, um, and creates a heg- you know, hegemony in places that it, it exists.

(0:38:26) speaker_1: And so the, sort of the legacy of, of US racism in Korea, um, and the ways in which, you know, now it’s become, you know, its own form of raci- So, all of the things that sort of are the questions about like, like a heterogeneous society and, and diversity and acceptance within a non-US context as well as the (laughs) the like imposition of the US context, um, it does feel very, uh, complex at times we could say.

(0:38:56) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:38:57) speaker_0: You know, um, i- if you don’t wanna talk about politics, uh, uh, the, the election w- we don’t have to, um, but I did wanna…

(0:39:06) speaker_0: I was- I, uh, you know, just I thought of is, you know, just wondering how-

(0:39:11) speaker_1: That’s the pleasure in running for pre- president.

(0:39:12) speaker_0: Yeah, with, with, with, uh, Kamala Harris, um, being, um, Black and Asian, um-

(0:39:20) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:39:20) speaker_1: I, I would have never in my wildest d- I mean, I think Barack Obama was enough wild dreams for one lifetime, but yeah, the fact that there is a potential for a Black and Asian American president is something that is, I think, um, just, uh, y- like, sort of both profoundly validating and speaks to maybe a larger, yeah, a, a larger way in which we’re going to be able to conceptualize race and racial identity and sort of the ways in which the legacies of colonialism, imperialism, militarism, um, and, uh, globalization, and you know, movements of people by choice as well as movements of people not by choice, um, could, could remake the ways in which Americans think about race in this country.

(0:40:22) speaker_1: I mean, that may be a very high hope given where we’re coming from or starting places.

(0:40:27) speaker_1: But, um, yeah, I, I would have never and, and I’m still a little bit, um, you know, i- in, in flabbergasted, in shock, shocked, I don’t know, um, that a, a Black and Asian person is (laughs) in the, the spotlight as they are and that, um, yeah, all of the conversations that could come from, from that.

(0:40:54) speaker_1:

(0:40:54) speaker_0: Do you feel like in your, um, you know, maybe not in Oakland because, um, you know, it’s so diverse, but and you see so many mixtures of folks and couples and, um, relationships.

(0:41:08) speaker_0: But I wonder do, uh, sometimes do you feel like you ha- you, you downplay one side to, uh, depending on, I don’t know, people talk about shape sh- shape shifting, code switching-

(0:41:22) speaker_1: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(0:41:22) speaker_0: … but like you’re Black in some circles and maybe you’re Korean in others. (laughs)

(0:41:30) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean, I think that my whole, you know, my whole life since childhood has been sort of about being a, a chameleon in spaces and/or, you know, learning how to invisibilize parts of myself or my whole self in spaces.

(0:41:44) speaker_1: Um, and I think that that’s true, um, sort of a- sort of through my, my career and sort of as I, you know, uh, the main work that I did at GSN Network was sort of build, uh, organizations that can work for trans and queer people of color.

(0:42:02) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, through that work, you know, being the person of color that was called for at the time or needed, um, was something that I, yeah, that I felt fine with doing.

(0:42:17) speaker_1: Also sort of being ambiguously, just a ambiguously the non-categorizable person of color has been something that’s worked to my advantage.

(0:42:29) speaker_1: Um, and I think that I guess I don’t shy away from or I don’t ever s- you know, deny any, any part of my identity so, um, you know, if folks……

(0:42:41) speaker_1: think I’m Black, I will definitely say that I’m, you know, I’m Black and Korean.

(0:42:45) speaker_1: And if folks, uh, well, you know, if folks, uh, don’t think I’m just Korean, um, but, uh, you know, I, I don’t s- you know, not say that I’m, I’m, I’m Black as well.

(0:42:56) speaker_1: And so I think the, you know, the, the main way that that would show up in my, my daily life is whether or not I introduce myself as a, as Black Korean or as a Korean Black person.

(0:43:07) speaker_1: Um, and so that often has to do with, yeah, with who’s, who, who I’m with, and who, who I, uh, who I’m trying to, I don’t know, be, be in the-

(0:43:23) speaker_0: Belonging.

(0:43:23) speaker_1: … quote unquote, yes, yes, align or belong to.

(0:43:27) speaker_0: Yeah, ’cause I, you know, and it’s, uh, going back to, uh, Kamala Harris, um, you know, in, I’ve, I’ve been privileged to be in some Black spaces where, you know, there’s so much excitement about the first, the potentially the first Black female president.

(0:43:45) speaker_0:

(0:43:45) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:43:45) speaker_0: And, and, and the Asian part isn’t really-

(0:43:48) speaker_1: Uh-huh.

(0:43:48) speaker_0: … acknowledged. And then in, like, Asian spaces, there’s so much excitement about the first Asian female president. (laughs) And so, uh, you know-

(0:43:59) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:43:59) speaker_0: … I just find that really interesting. Um, I suppose we, we find the, the, the point of, um, relatability-

(0:44:09) speaker_1: Oh, connection, yeah. Yeah.

(0:44:10) speaker_0: Yeah, connection, and then so that’s how we see that person.

(0:44:14) speaker_0: But, um, yeah, it just, it’s h- it’s like, you know, it’s just- it’s, it’s, it’s fascinating to me, but also kind of like-

(0:44:23) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:44:23) speaker_0: Can we acknowledge this person has many identities, but…

(0:44:28) speaker_1: I mean, I think probably like, you know, I don’t wanna generalize, but like, straight folks trying to acknowledge or understand, um, sort of gender fluidity or sexuality fluidity that like, if you’ve had the privilege of being able to have a single sort of monolithic or heterogeneous view of yourself and your group, then it’s also hard to think about or like incorporate that it would be a hybrid identity, or like a fluid identity, or a…

(0:44:59) speaker_1: Yeah, I think that I would, yeah, I am, I’m concurring with your assessment of how folks are able to talk about it, and I think that it has to do a lot with just like the inability to have the language or the, the, your brain doesn’t automatically go there, because that’s not how you’ve had to think this whole time, um…

(0:45:18) speaker_1:

(0:45:18) speaker_0: Or, or your experiences-

(0:45:20) speaker_1: Right, yeah.

(0:45:20) speaker_0: … that you can correlate to yourself. Um, have you been back to Korea, Jeffrey?

(0:45:24) speaker_1: I did go. Um, I went to Korea in 2000 and, oh, my goodness, I guess last 2004 now, which is 20 years ago, which sounds f- like a long time.

(0:45:36) speaker_1: Um, I went, uh, on in, like, uh, uh, adoptee kind of a tour kind of thing, but it was also like a time when some folks were like doing their search.

(0:45:47) speaker_1: So, my sister was doing her search at that time, um, but that was the only time.

(0:45:52) speaker_0: Oh, your sister was along too?

(0:45:53) speaker_1: Uh, what did you say?

(0:45:55) speaker_0: Your sister was along too on this tour?

(0:45:57) speaker_1: Oh, yeah, so it was me, my sister, and my mom, and then it was a bunch of other, well, I was the only, (laughs) I was the only man, but, um, and a bunch of other, uh, uh, late teens, early 20s, um, Korean adoptee women.

(0:46:11) speaker_1:

(0:46:12) speaker_0: Okay, so you went when you were a teenager?

(0:46:15) speaker_1: Um, wait, I must have been in my early-

(0:46:19) speaker_0: Er-

(0:46:19) speaker_1: … 20s, uh, ’cause, yeah.

(0:46:22) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:46:22) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:46:22) speaker_0: Okay. And you haven’t been back since?

(0:46:24) speaker_1: No. I have not.

(0:46:26) speaker_0: Do you, yeah, could you, if I, if I can ask, um, have you been interested in doing a search?

(0:46:35) speaker_1: Um, you know, I guess that’s a, I feel like I, I feel like I should say yes, because that feels like-

(0:46:45) speaker_0: Compulsed back.

(0:46:46) speaker_1: … what-

(0:46:46) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:46:46) speaker_1: … I don’t know, I should say.

(0:46:49) speaker_1: Um, yes, but, you know, I have not felt that like pull or compulsion, you know, like I saw my sister really could not figure out her sort of orientation in life and the world until she had done that for herself.

(0:47:03) speaker_1: Um, and so for, yeah, but for me, it’s never been, been like that, and I think, you know, obviously my like, well, let me re- not obviously, but one of the hardest days of my life, my, my year is my birthday, and I think that’s probably like the main, you know, day that I, I really dwell on, on that situation, or, you know, on being adopted and, and sort of what, and, and if my, you know, how old my mom would be and if she’s alive and if she’s doing well.

(0:47:31) speaker_1: Um, but I’ve also not sort of felt like the, um, yeah, I don’t know, that, that drive or that, that burn to, to do that.

(0:47:42) speaker_1: And I think it’s probably two things maybe.

(0:47:46) speaker_1: Um, you know, one, being queer and just sort of, yeah, just being queer and having that be something that’s like another thing to deal with again.

(0:47:57) speaker_1: Um, and then I think the other thing is really, uh, yeah, not sort of knowing the, the circumstances of my birth or whether or not it was like a, you know, uh, a joy or a trauma, or a, yeah, just, yeah, not wanting to, maybe not wanting to know, but also just not wanting to like introduce something that’s so not, (laughs) yeah, that’s so not a, a st- yeah, not a, a good memory or a situation or circumstance that, um, I feel like is like one of these sort of unknown things when you’re a mixed raced Korean.

(0:48:35) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays)

(0:48:47) speaker_0: It, it sounds like, yeah, that it, it can be quite painful.

(0:48:52) speaker_0: I mean, even the not knowing, or n- the unknowable part, um, whether you’re a product of, you know, actually a, a love relationship, but, or, and/or in a power imbalance, and/or, um, you know, the, uh, uh, you know, Am- American GI.

(0:49:13) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:49:14) speaker_1: Right. The circumstances of the eco- yeah.

(0:49:18) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:49:18) speaker_1: The circumstances of the situation. All the things that, you know, come with (laughs) with the…

(0:49:25) speaker_1: Yeah, I think that, and that’s, I think, part of my feeling of like, I don’t know, um, solidarity with sort of, uh, well, you call them war babies, but sort of the children of the, the consequences of military, um, occupations.

(0:49:44) speaker_1: Or, or, uh, you know, what, what we wanna call them. Um, but yeah, sort of the, the reports and sort of-

(0:49:52) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:49:52) speaker_1: Yeah, not, not, I mean, yes, refugees, but more like the children born of the consequences-

(0:49:58) speaker_0: Or like refugees.

(0:49:58) speaker_1: … of a military operation. So, sort of-

(0:50:01) speaker_0: Oh.

(0:50:01) speaker_1: … after, uh, uh, sort of (laughs) in the, the aftermath of Ir- Iraq, we were hearing about all of these, um, half American-

(0:50:09) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:50:09) speaker_1: …

(0:50:09) speaker_1: half Iraqi babies being born, and so just sort of in the, in that sort of, uh, yeah, community or spirit of, of, of thinking about how, how geopolitics impacts, you know, biopolitics.

(0:50:25) speaker_1: And, and you’re, like you said, that your body is the site of sort of geopolitical and, you know, very, like, yeah, personal situations of, of everybody involved that aren’t really maybe clear, or, or the fact that it’s a war or a war situation, you know, graze everything.

(0:50:49) speaker_1:

(0:50:50) speaker_0: Right. Yeah, like embodiment-

(0:50:52) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:50:52) speaker_0: … of occupation.

(0:50:54) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:50:54) speaker_0: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and you haven’t been back to Korea since.

(0:50:59) speaker_1: Not since, since 2004. So many, many, many years.

(0:51:05) speaker_0: How did you feel when you were there?

(0:51:08) speaker_1: Um, again, you know, because I don’t n- you know, Koreans definitely didn’t embrace me as a Korean.

(0:51:15) speaker_1: Um, so I didn’t see myself as a, you know, I think as many adoptees who go back feel like I’m, like, with my people.

(0:51:23) speaker_1: I’m standing and I’m looking around and I’m seeing everyone who looks like me.

(0:51:27) speaker_1: So, I guess it didn’t feel like a, “I wish I was here because this is where my people are, the people that look like me are.

(0:51:36) speaker_1: ” But I did feel, um, a strong, yeah, like, uh, connection or…

(0:51:43) speaker_0: There was something.

(0:51:44) speaker_1: Yes, yes. I didn’t feel like just a tourist.

(0:51:48) speaker_0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is really profound when you go back and you think, “This is, this is my native land. This is the land I was born.” (laughs)

(0:51:58) speaker_1: And yeah, all the generations before.

(0:51:59) speaker_0: All the generations there.

(0:52:01) speaker_1: And-

(0:52:01) speaker_0: Your ancestors, yeah, that you might not know, so, um, ha- and, and also, I guess that goes with, uh, m- uh, questions about DNA, uh, DNA testing and, um, finding family in the States.

(0:52:16) speaker_0: That is also something that…

(0:52:20) speaker_1: Right, and I, I guess that could also, you know, I think…

(0:52:24) speaker_1: Uh, I mean, I guess my, my, to my mind, I will wait until it feels like pretty much those, you know, those two individuals might be passed away to do anything that would be like popping up as the, you know, random (laughs) member of the family, um…

(0:52:43) speaker_1:

(0:52:44) speaker_0: You don’t have the burning desire, like you talked, like, your sister about?

(0:52:47) speaker_1: Right, no, and not on- not for my, my mother or my father in terms of, um, in terms of that part.

(0:52:53) speaker_1: Like I, to me, it feels like my story was very much supposed to be a story of how do we get to a, a future sort of definition of ourselves as humans that isn’t so rooted in sort of the traditional ways of conceiving of identity.

(0:53:11) speaker_1:

(0:53:12) speaker_0: Well, and it’s interesting because, you know, um, I- I’ve lived in Korea as well, just by a year, um, uh, when I did my Fulbright, but the, the interesting, uh, an interesting takeaway is the queer folks or gay people that I met would often feel like they have to go back into the closet, even though they had been out for many years in the States.

(0:53:37) speaker_0: But in Korea, even to their biological families, they were back in the closet.

(0:53:43) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:53:43) speaker_0: And, and that’s sort of the personal sacrifice they had to make in order to, you know, um, be reunited with their families, and that has to be a, kind of a hard pill to swallow as well, to think about, I mean, in the, in your mind about Korea is, uh, you know, you may, you might not be fully accepted in all your identities, in the way you might be in Oakland.

(0:54:06) speaker_0:

(0:54:06) speaker_1: I mean, I definitely, you know, I think that there was one other Black Korean that I saw when I was back there, and he was sweeping the streets like with a broom, like a sweep- street cleaner, but like, himself, not like driving a machine.

(0:54:21) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, I think that it was very interesting to sort of feel a kind of racism like I felt in the United States.

(0:54:31) speaker_1: Um, so I think that in addition to my queerness, like there was just also a feeling of like not, yeah, maybe not being ready for who I am or not sort of being able to be sort of the full person that I wanted to be or that I already was in that space.

(0:54:50) speaker_1: And so-… yeah, I think that the, you know, I’m very supportive of all of the efforts of, of activists, uh, right now in, in Korea.

(0:55:00) speaker_1: Um, but particularly at that time when like I had sort of built my identity and it was my early 20s.

(0:55:05) speaker_1: And, you know, I remember saying something probably really rude to the pastor that ran our orphanage that we came from.

(0:55:14) speaker_1: Um, but definitely not at that time, but I have sort of felt like I could subdue any part of myself to try to make this work.

(0:55:23) speaker_1: Um, and I think that, you know, as I’ve become older, as sort of the components of my identity feel less sharp as it were in terms of like who I am, um, that, that, that I might feel differently, that I might, you know, see, yeah, see trying to be part of the group as more important in a way, um, that I would have then.

(0:55:47) speaker_1: But, you know, I have no idea. Um, I also have not been in the closet for, I don’t know, since I was 16, so I don’t know, whatever many years that is.

(0:55:55) speaker_1: Uh, it’s, um, so I don’t think that, you know, I don’t think I could fit back in a closet. I don’t think there’s a closet that could take me.

(0:56:03) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:56:03) speaker_1: Um, and then… (laughs)

(0:56:06) speaker_0: There ain’t a closet big enough for me. (laughs)

(0:56:08) speaker_1: Right. Exactly.

(0:56:09) speaker_1: Uh, so yeah, but like I said, I think that’s also been sort of in the realm of things that have made me maybe feel less inclined or like that it’s less important for me to do sort of my searches as a component of, of my identity.

(0:56:28) speaker_1: Um, I, I think probably I have a, a, a fantasy of being able to like write a, a story that has two sort of parallel s- you know, stories of a Korean family and a Black American family, um, that come together in some, you know, in my life.

(0:56:49) speaker_1: But, um, I think that’s probably just sort of a fantasy in my head.

(0:56:53) speaker_1: But that, that I think that would be h- the reason that I would want to sort of know the most, is just to know sort of what the, the two parallel tracks of the f- the stories are.

(0:57:04) speaker_1:

(0:57:04) speaker_0: And Jeffrey, what… Are you continuing with your activism now?

(0:57:09) speaker_1: I am. Um, I, well, so I, I’m working on or, you know, my, my main sort of intellectual project right now is, is working on power sharing.

(0:57:22) speaker_1: I was a co-executive director, and, um, really, uh, finding something very sort of deeply profound in being able to and the ability to sort of lead as a co-leader, as somebody who I don’t think would have ever been executive director on my own, or would have never had the sort of, sort of cultural, institutional, or, or, you know, whatever signs to say like, “Oh, you’re a leader.

(0:57:49) speaker_1: You’re somebody that should be, um, you know, leading an organization or leading a movement.

(0:57:55) speaker_1: ” And so, um, right now I support, uh, developing and, and building out, um, uh, structures to support other co-, uh, leaders and co-leadership structures, and then also sort of, uh, emergent, younger executives that are, um, leading organizations.

(0:58:13) speaker_1: And then I’m also involved in the, uh, in KQTX, which is a, um, Korean, uh, uh, queer, trans, uh, national sort of space.

(0:58:27) speaker_1: Um, and I’m also sort of working sort of at the periphery or sort of in an advisory role, um, sort of within the same movements that I was working before within the LGBT youth and education justice spaces.

(0:58:43) speaker_1: So yes, uh, continuing my activism sort of like in the tradition of, I don’t know, geese migrating or something.

(0:58:52) speaker_1: I am rotated out of the front of the V, and I am taking my (laughs) spot to draft, um, for a little bit.

(0:59:00) speaker_1: And, uh, yeah, figuring out sort of where it makes sense for me to fit in.

(0:59:06) speaker_1: But, um, I think sort of identity, and the ways in which identity and belonging and, and sort of a holistic acceptance and understanding and sort of radical love for yourself, um, will all sort of be part of my activism going forward.

(0:59:24) speaker_1:

(0:59:24) speaker_0: Well, we definitely need more, more people that can, can help us to, um, facilitate our own, um, self-love and care.

(0:59:35) speaker_0: So I was gonna ask you about the, uh, what’d you say, the KTX?

(0:59:40) speaker_1: I think K, so Korean Queer Trans Experience is what the X I think stands for, but KQTX.

(0:59:46) speaker_0: Oh. Yeah, uh, w- how, what is that, w- working with them, what has that been like?

(0:59:50) speaker_1: Um, I mean, I think that’s probably been the, the most affirmational Korean space I’ve been in, just because, um, sort of the political orientation of the group is that they are, you know, acknowledging and understanding that there’s adoptees, there’s mixed race Koreans, that there’s, um, sort of hybrid Korean identities.

(1:00:10) speaker_1: Um, and so, uh, the group has been uh, sort of active since maybe 2018. Um, they had a conference, uh, a national queer and trans Korean conference.

(1:00:24) speaker_1: Um, and sort of since then became like a national network. Uh, obviously, it really, you know, most of it developed during the pandemic.

(1:00:34) speaker_1: Um, and so it’s, uh, so it’s been a, um, you know, it’s been a growth journey. It’s been a s- sort of small community that became a large community.

(1:00:44) speaker_1: Um, and it’s, like I said, one of the places where I feel like the most components of my identity can be like accepted and understood-ish….

(1:00:54) speaker_1: um, you know, the starting point isn’t so, so far away as it might be with, you know, a random White person or, um, someone who has less understanding around sort of queerness and sort of the, all of the ways in which Korean diaspora happens.

(1:01:10) speaker_1: Um, but yeah, I found that to be a, an interesting space, um, and a place where Koreans are grappling with a lot of different questions around identity that often it doesn’t seem like, uh, is a space for them to do that.

(1:01:27) speaker_1: I’m also s- trying to figure out where sort of adoptee politics fit back into my life.

(1:01:34) speaker_1: I did sort of more around adoptee sort of activism and organizing, I guess you could say, in my like early 20s.

(1:01:43) speaker_1: Um, and then sort of, it just became sort of a part of (laughs) this larger, you know, conglomeration of identities that I was dealing with.

(1:01:55) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, I, I haven’t had to be such a part of my sort of political identity but within KQTX sort of, sort of th- ex-

(1:02:07) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:02:08) speaker_1: … you know, in the KQTX, um, context that, you know, adoptees are and there is such a, a sort of adoptee presence, a queer adoptee presence, um-

(1:02:17) speaker_0: There is.

(1:02:18) speaker_1: … that it does… Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(1:02:20) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:02:20) speaker_1: Um, that it does feel like a place where, um, you know, uh, folks are, are, are expecting me to and, and, um, hoping that I will be able to lean more into or bring more sort of analysis around or, or representation around being an adoptee, um, and yeah.

(1:02:39) speaker_1: I mean, I, I, I guess it’s not, I don’t shy away from it.

(1:02:42) speaker_1: I, I tell people I’m a Korean American adoptee or I’m a, I’m a transnational adoptee from Korea, um, and so yeah.

(1:02:50) speaker_1: So I tell people that I think mainly just to give them sort of a larger context because most people wanna imagine sort of what my life was like with a Korean mom and a Black dad in the United States and ask me all sorts of questions that, you know, don’t really relate to my experience.

(1:03:06) speaker_1: Um, and yeah. And it- it’s also not a place that I’ve spent as much intellectual energy, um, recently.

(1:03:15) speaker_0: Well, you know, I, it, that’s good to hear that, um, there is that, uh, y- you are feeling very connected there because I’ve heard, um, that Korean adoptee spaces can feel very hetero.

(1:03:31) speaker_0:

(1:03:32) speaker_1: Well, so KQTX is the queer-

(1:03:35) speaker_0: Right.

(1:03:35) speaker_1: … queer space that it feels, you know, accepting of adoptees.

(1:03:39) speaker_1: The, uh, the adoptee spaces are sort of very hetero and very, um, I don’t know, White-centric and s-

(1:03:47) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:03:48) speaker_1: … White supremacy-embracing kind of spaces. (laughs)

(1:03:51) speaker_0: (laughs) Yeah. Uh, uh, I mean, inherent, you know, with that transracial adoption piece, it’s-

(1:03:59) speaker_1: I mean, I, I think that the, the f- the gift that it gave me was to be able to watch White supremacy like in action as a like, I mean, beneficiary in a, a sort of sense, but really as someone who’s able to see how it operates for White people up close, um, because that’s just explains so much about l- (laughs) about so many things about sort of where we are as a country and the limitations of what White people and White sort of like my parents were the, you know, what you would’ve hoped for a, a, an adoptee could get or a, a trans-, um, racial adoptee could get in terms of just being open to knowledge and new ideas.

(1:04:48) speaker_1: And even that was so far from what, you know, what was either needed or what, what, um, yeah, what, what should’ve been that you just don’t…

(1:04:59) speaker_1: Y- yeah, it just gives you just a, I don’t know, um, when you don’t have to question anything about anything in the world, then it just gives you such a limited range of ways to express what’s happening.

(1:05:09) speaker_1:

(1:05:09) speaker_0: I mean, even, um, adoptees, you know, young adoptees today to have a, a White parent taking-

(1:05:18) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:05:18) speaker_0: … Korean, you know, um, in order to, you know, relate to her, you know, family and ch- um, uh, that, that even today feels very forward.

(1:05:29) speaker_0: (laughs) I mean, very advanced, you know? Or very conscious.

(1:05:33) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, uh, s- uh, s- I mean, I guess it was but, you know, sh- my mom went to a class with other parents.

(1:05:38) speaker_1: She wasn’t going to like Korean school with-

(1:05:40) speaker_0: Oh, other adoptive parents?

(1:05:42) speaker_1: … Korean people, she’s going to.

(1:05:42) speaker_0: It was kind of-

(1:05:42) speaker_1: Uh-huh. So there was like enough of them to make a class.

(1:05:45) speaker_0: Oh, okay.

(1:05:45) speaker_1: So I mean, I think that, I think probably one of these books they said something about you should send your kids to Korean school and go with them so it looks like you care or something.

(1:05:54) speaker_1:

(1:05:55) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:05:55) speaker_1: Um, I mean, that’s probably a little bit funny but-

(1:05:58) speaker_0: Yeah, yeah.

(1:05:58) speaker_1: … um, yeah.

(1:05:59) speaker_1: I mean, I think it was probably some recommendation somewhere and so that was what they were doing but it wasn’t a bad recommendation, I guess.

(1:06:07) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:06:07) speaker_0: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of one of those things like, you know, could it be performative or could it be also like…

(1:06:14) speaker_0: But I think it’s, you know, at least taking a step towards culture.

(1:06:19) speaker_1: I mean-

(1:06:20) speaker_0: And-

(1:06:20) speaker_1: … it was also like a, a act of humility ’cause, you know, they made them sing in Korean.

(1:06:25) speaker_1: They made them do all of these things that you’re just like, “Oh my gosh. Okay.

(1:06:29) speaker_1: ” And like when I look back at it, I was, I woulda, I would have never done that. I would’ve said, “See you. I’ll drop you off.” Um. (laughs)

(1:06:39) speaker_0: It, it is kind of an, yeah.

(1:06:41) speaker_0: (laughs) It is kind of an act of, you know, okay, I’m gonna do something that makes me uncomfortable in, in a way that, you know, adopting kids from Korea and putting them in spaces that make them uncomf- that could make them uncomfortable, you know?

(1:06:55) speaker_0:

(1:06:55) speaker_1: Right…. so I guess, yes, once a week may be, uh, not a good (laughs) once a-

(1:07:01) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:07:01) speaker_1: … week compared to a lifetime. (laughs)

(1:07:02) speaker_0: Yeah. It’s not, it’s not exactly the same thing, but yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

(1:07:06) speaker_0: Well, Geoffrey, I, you know, when you’re, you’re talking about getting back into adoptee spaces or, um, getting back into some kind of activism, um, thank you so much for coming on the podcast ’cause this is definitely, you know, it- it- it- it helps other…

(1:07:23) speaker_0: It will help other adoptees. Um, p- it provides some more insight into your experiences.

(1:07:31) speaker_0: Um, and also hopefully, you know, I’m hoping that the experiences of, of, uh, queer adoptees become, you know, is more visible or that is, you know, we have more awareness and space to hear stories like, like yours.

(1:07:50) speaker_0: So I really appreciate you coming on.

(1:07:52) speaker_1: Well, thank you so much.

(1:07:53) speaker_1: And obviously part of the whole work of, you know, making ourselves known is the cultural production of, of things and building a culture that is a- is a adoptee culture.

(1:08:04) speaker_1: And so, yeah, thank you for doing the podcast. I was really excited to hear that there was such a thing.

(1:08:10) speaker_1: Um, and yeah, I really appreciate taking the time to talk and you asking me questions that I have not thought about in a long time. Um-

(1:08:19) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:08:19) speaker_1: (laughs) But it was really, um, actually a great chance to sort of reconnect with a lot of things that, um, yeah, really went into my beginning as a, as a young person trying to find a place and a, a way to explain my- myself and my existence in the world.

(1:08:34) speaker_1: So, uh, I really appreciated it. Thank you.

(1:08:37) speaker_0: And Geoffrey, is, uh, are you open to if somebody wants to connect with you or, um…

(1:08:43) speaker_1: Oh, yeah. Um, yes, for sure. Um, definitely folks who are interested in KQTX but also just other adoptees about things or mixed race Koreans about things.

(1:08:53) speaker_1: Um, I’m definitely in a place of, uh, yeah, uh, mentorship or, uh, advice or connection and support. Um…

(1:09:04) speaker_0: How can they reach you?

(1:09:06) speaker_1: Uh, well, the best way would be either on my- uh, by email at G-E-O-F-F-R-E-Y @collectivestruggle.

(1:09:15) speaker_1: i- info, I-N-F-O, um, or on LinkedIn, um, with the name Geoffrey Winder, G-E-O-F-F-R-E-Y W-I-N-D-E-R. (instrumental music plays)

(1:09:37) speaker_0: Thank you so much, Geoffrey. I hope that we’ll meet in person one day. Thank you to all Patreon supporters who have helped keep this podcast going.

(1:09:47) speaker_0: You know who you are. Yooken Jun is our volunteer Korean translator. You can read her translations at adaptedpodcast.com. I’m Kaya MiLee.

(1:09:57) speaker_0: See you next time. (instrumental music plays)

Mirae Kate-hers Rhee, 48, is a transnational, transcultural artist and adopted Korean who uses her socio-political artwork and performance to investigate concepts like identity and belonging.

Audio available July 20, 2024 at 6 pm CST.

Photo: Michael Hurt

(0:00:15) speaker_0: Welcome to Adopted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 23 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:26) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.

(0:00:34) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families and society that expects a feel-good story.

(0:00:48) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.

(0:00:52) speaker_1: This year is, like, the- the big dragon year, and so I came up with this idea of wanting to be, like, a running dragon and wanting to make some sort of, like, long-term peace that could end in this big spectacular event.

(0:01:06) speaker_1:

(0:01:06) speaker_0: This next conversation is with Mirae Kate Hers Lee. She’s an artist, social activist, feminist, and transracial and transnational adopted Korean.

(0:01:17) speaker_0: She was part of a Korean diaspora art exhibition in Incheon a while back, and it was a pleasure to reach her recently in Berlin to learn more about her.

(0:01:26) speaker_0: Now, here’s Mireille.

(0:01:33) speaker_1: Okay. Uh, my name is Mireille Kate Herz Lee, and I have been living in Berlin, Germany for the past, over 15 years, I wanna say now.

(0:01:43) speaker_1: I am, um, 48 years old, so I’m celebrating the Yong Tae, the big dragon year.

(0:01:48) speaker_1: You know, before the big 60th year cycle, like the Hongop in Korea that’s, like, super important in s- in Korea, in Japan, and- and China, Taiwan.

(0:02:00) speaker_1: Um, so, you know, that’s one of the reasons why I was pushing myself to do, you know, uncomfortable or challenging things this year, ’cause they say it’s always gonna be a challenging year.

(0:02:11) speaker_1: One of those, you know, year whe- where you come full circle around and it’s your- your animal year.

(0:02:18) speaker_1: So, that’s one reason why I was interested in doing this talk with you.

(0:02:22) speaker_0: Are you a dragon?

(0:02:24) speaker_1: I am a dragon.

(0:02:25) speaker_0: Okay. I- That makes sense. Is that a fire sign?

(0:02:29) speaker_1: It’s a fire sign.

(0:02:30) speaker_0: Yeah. It makes sense, you’re a fire…

(0:02:32) speaker_1: (laughs).

(0:02:33) speaker_0: (laughs). Um, but tell me a- a little bit about these, um, year groupings ’cause I don’t know about them.

(0:02:41) speaker_1: Okay. So, it’s based off of, you know, the East Asian- E- East Asian lunar calendar. So, you know, every 12 years our animal year comes around.

(0:02:53) speaker_1: And I also have to say, like, I’m not an expert on this, like, whatsoever, so don’t quote me on any of this if some of it’s wrong.

(0:03:01) speaker_1: And it- it follows a kind of- I mean, people like to call it actually the Chinese zodiac, which you’ve probably heard that way.

(0:03:08) speaker_1: I prefer to call it the- the lunar zodiac because there are so many other Asian countries that- that follow this calendar.

(0:03:16) speaker_1: And yeah, sure, maybe it did, um, originate in China, but we don’t call, like, the sun calendar the Gregorian calendar or whatever.

(0:03:25) speaker_1: We just call it, like, the Western calendar or the sun calendar. So, I think it’s actually fairer.

(0:03:31) speaker_1: Even, like, we could say it sort of decolonizes it from just being Chinese to call it the lunar calendar. So, there are 12 animals.

(0:03:38) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:03:38) speaker_1: It comes from, you probably heard of the story that the Buddha had asked all the different animals on the Earth to come to him, and those 12 animals that managed to get there first became the animals of the lunar calendar.

(0:03:53) speaker_1:

(0:03:54) speaker_0: Oh, this is great. I- I didn’t know any of this stuff, so… (laughs).

(0:03:58) speaker_1: Cool.

(0:03:58) speaker_0: Um, so Mireille, M- Mireille is not… I- is your chosen name, correct?

(0:04:05) speaker_1: Yes. Mireille is my chosen name. I chose it in 2016 and I’d been thinking about it for a really long time.

(0:04:14) speaker_1: Um, as you know, like, I went by Kate Herz for a really long time, even as an artist, so it was a really big decision for me to keep adding names or deleting names from my identity.

(0:04:28) speaker_1: But in 2016 I did a durational performance (laughs) called TransKoreanning where I tried to turn Korean (laughs) in three months.

(0:04:39) speaker_1: And, um, of course it’s, like, uh, a bit of a joke, right? I mean, who can completely change themselves-

(0:04:46) speaker_0: Right. Yeah.

(0:04:46) speaker_1: … in three months? So, it was done, like, tongue in cheek, but I think looking back at it, I was also really earnest.

(0:04:53) speaker_1: You know, there was this part of me who really took it seriously.

(0:04:57) speaker_1: And so, I only spoke Korean for three months while I was living in Korea and I was taking classes, and I was conducting myself like I kind of expected, you know, like a proper South Korean citizen woman would conduct her life.

(0:05:15) speaker_1: Um, and then, you know, tried to just go with the flow and see what would happen, and if I would reach some type of Korean language fluency, which I did not.

(0:05:27) speaker_1: Um, but it was based off of a- a project that I did in 2006, like, 10 years earlier, which was called, um, the German Speaking Project or the Das Deutschsprachliche Projekt, uh, where I tried to turn German basically in three months when I first came to Berlin.

(0:05:45) speaker_1: (laughs).

(0:05:46) speaker_0: Oh, interesting. Can you compare the two experiences?

(0:05:50) speaker_1: Sure. I mean, I had never thought about doing the pro- the project in Korea. Uh, until then I had been in Germany for quite a while.

(0:06:00) speaker_1: So, in some ways I think living…… in Germany brought me closer to my Korean heritage.

(0:06:07) speaker_1: I know that sounds kind of ridiculous, but I first was really interested in, um, making a work that critiqued this idea of cultural assimilation or, you know, integration.

(0:06:20) speaker_1: Uh, what does it mean to be German? Uh, what does it mean to speak German?

(0:06:25) speaker_1: Um, what is it like for me being a person of color who, you know, has a very complicated, you know, cultural inside and con- this confrontation that I had with, uh, German folks who didn’t understand, you know, they just saw me from my outside.

(0:06:42) speaker_1: And what was really interesting is I, I learned German, uh, relatively quickly because back then there, w- j- Berlin, you know, was international, but not at the stage that it is now and nobody tried to speak English to me.

(0:06:59) speaker_1: They just assumed I couldn’t speak English. So because of that, you know, it was like practicing on the street.

(0:07:05) speaker_1: I, I just had a lot of opportunity to, to learn German and to practice it with, uh, natives.

(0:07:11) speaker_1: And so I was completely fluent (laughs) at the end of that project.

(0:07:15) speaker_1: I mean, it was a fluent that was a broken German, but, um, I had no inhibitions about making any mistakes.

(0:07:23) speaker_1: And that was a, that was a real, uh, change from, you know, um, my experiences learning Korean because, like, I’m not German, you know?

(0:07:32) speaker_1: Like, I can embrace my foreigner status here in a way that I think is not the same way that I would, like, you know, the kind of foreigner status that Asian-Americans have, like in the US.

(0:07:47) speaker_1: Um, I don’t embrace that, right? (laughs) So it, there’s a, there’s…

(0:07:51) speaker_1: I don’t have the type of, like, I guess, entitlement to say that I’m German, so tha- especially back in 2006 when I was, you know, just coming basically to visit, to do this project.

(0:08:02) speaker_1: And so I didn’t have any of those, like, inhibitions and nobody had any expectations that I should be really good in German anyway.

(0:08:12) speaker_1: And so it was really easy for me to learn.

(0:08:15) speaker_0: Yeah, there’s a lot less pressure.

(0:08:16) speaker_1: Absolutely. And it was fun. I mean, it was the first time that I learned a, a foreign language where I was really having a lot of fun every day.

(0:08:24) speaker_0: And what, what did you go through learning Korean?

(0:08:28) speaker_1: So, (sighs) y-

(0:08:30) speaker_0: Or becoming, trying to, you know, Korean-ize yourself.

(0:08:33) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean, that has a completely different, I think, um, layer on top of that piece that didn’t obviously exist in the German-speaking project.

(0:08:45) speaker_1: Although I do have to, um, give this small caveat that my adoptive father, um, is something like, I think fifth generation German.

(0:08:53) speaker_1: So I don’t know if that was like a kind of unconscious sort of attempt to kind of connect with him or something in a way that, uh, I couldn’t when he was alive because he wasn’t very affectionate, like he was, you know, very stoic type of father.

(0:09:13) speaker_1: I think that’s very, um, typical of that generation ’cause he’s not a boomer, he’s like a, what is it called? Like the silent generation or something.

(0:09:21) speaker_1: So there is some sort of interesting thing that happens, I think with me trying to investigate my cultural backgrounds, so to speak, like even my adoptive family.

(0:09:35) speaker_1: So with Korean, um, yeah, it was totally, as I said, like it was kind of a joke, um, but I was like kind of serious at the same time, and it was a relearning for me.

(0:09:47) speaker_1: So I did learn Korean intensively, uh, when I was about 20.

(0:09:53) speaker_1: I started when I was about 20, I guess, when I first went back to Korea, but I failed like almost every single class I was in.

(0:10:03) speaker_1: So it’s like a, I, it, for a really long time it was a real source of shame for me that, that-

(0:10:10) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:10:10) speaker_1: … I think I just tried to bury and just not think about (laughs) for the longest time. And, um, and now I’m quite open about it.

(0:10:18) speaker_1: I mean, I, like absolutely failed out of like every single course and, um, I just couldn’t learn it.

(0:10:26) speaker_1: So when I’d started to do the trans-Choreionic project, it was like this sort of return, it was this return to this failed attempt.

(0:10:35) speaker_0: And so what did you learn out of the, especially the Korean project, um, at the end of it? Were you…

(0:10:42) speaker_0: I, I, I, I realize that you probably went into it as i- as a bit of a, a, you know, it’s kind of a performative, um…

(0:10:53) speaker_1: Yes. Yeah.

(0:10:54) speaker_1: You know, it was like a persona that I was trying to embody and I was thinking I’m performing on an everyday basis, so there was already, um, certain parameters I had set up for myself that felt really comforting because like I knew what to do.

(0:11:10) speaker_1: (laughs) Uh, it was not easy though, because, because I was only speaking in Korean, um, I couldn’t really connect to people who didn’t speak Korean.

(0:11:20) speaker_1: (laughs) And then my Korean wasn’t very good, so I couldn’t really s- connect to Korean natives very well either, but I ended up having these like really funny and just so lovely conversations with other adopted students who were at the, the, you know, the language school that I was at.

(0:11:43) speaker_1: So they were very, um, they were very welcoming and patient with me, so I ended up (laughs) talking to them a lot, like other Korean adoptees.

(0:11:52) speaker_0: Mm. Okay. Okay. Well, (sighs) you’re an artist. Um, I’ve seen some of your, your visual work.

(0:12:01) speaker_0: Um, what is kind of your sweet spot in terms of the art you create?

(0:12:07) speaker_1: Well, you probably noticed I’m very multi-disciplinary-And, um, I’ve been able now to categorize my work basically in three different mediums.

(0:12:17) speaker_1: So I work heavily in drawing, installation, and social art practice.

(0:12:22) speaker_1: And the social art practice is a little bit more complicated to describe but it m- mostly includes some type of endurance performance and, um, an engagement with the public.

(0:12:35) speaker_1: And even when it’s a social art practice piece, I often will include, you know, drawings that are related to that or, you know, things that can, like, go in an installation that can be represented in a, in a exhibition space later.

(0:12:51) speaker_1: So they all sort of flow into each other.

(0:12:54) speaker_1: Um, the materials that, you know, they often are later, you know, documented, like in photography and video, and then those also become mediums in the pieces that I make but they are really just documentation.

(0:13:10) speaker_1: And I’m, you know, working on, uh, a new piece that’s trying to rethink that way of it not just being documentation but also, like, the medium itself, and that’s a new challenge for me.

(0:13:21) speaker_1: So that’s exciting.

(0:13:22) speaker_0: Yeah, let’s talk more about that. This is, um, Running to, uh, Find My Family?

(0:13:28) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:13:28) speaker_1: This is the Run Towards My Family project that I’m in the midst of creating now and as you know because most of it’s taking place on social media, it’s a real challenge for us Gen, Gen Xers, or at least myself, to be constantly posting on social media.

(0:13:47) speaker_1:

(0:13:47) speaker_0: Yeah, so, uh, what’s it, uh, what’s it entail?

(0:13:51) speaker_1: So I first had the idea of wanting to make a work that integrated my running practice and I only started doing long distance running because of the pandemic.

(0:14:04) speaker_1: 2020, I was quite, um, I was just na- like, beside myself because everything had gotten cancelled that I was working on or my exhibitions got postponed and there was a real sense of, you know, the unknown and a lot of, you know, as you know, I think a lot of people were really stressed out at that time, especially freelancers.

(0:14:28) speaker_1: And I just started running to sort of deal with that stress and over, I guess a year, it started to become more than just, like, a stress reliever.

(0:14:40) speaker_1: It really became, like, full-fledged hobby.

(0:14:43) speaker_1: And I started getting involved in different running groups in Berlin of other people who were, you know, having, they had been doing it for a long time.

(0:14:53) speaker_1: Like, they were, they were more like professional hobbyists. And before that point, I didn’t really exercise.

(0:15:01) speaker_1: I mean, I’d ride my bike pretty often but there was nothing that I did on a kind of regular basis.

(0:15:09) speaker_1: So it was kind of a big deal for me to have something so consistent in my life and then it happened that I had the opportunity to run a 10K.

(0:15:20) speaker_1: So I ran a 10K, it was, like, actually during COVID so it was on my phone on a, um, on an app with the, I think it was, like, the Munich Marathon but they were doing also, like, shorter races.

(0:15:33) speaker_1: And then once I did that, I felt so empowered and then just started, you know, preparing for lo- for longer races.

(0:15:42) speaker_1: And the interesting thing is is like I don’t actually like running when I start running.

(0:15:47) speaker_1: Like, every time I start running, it’s not actually very pleasant but there’s something that happens, like, maybe after about 10 minutes is, you know, it’s a very meditative sort of journey that you take when you’re doing this run.

(0:16:01) speaker_1: And the major reason why I continued was that I, I just was able to have so much relief from my endometriosis which is this chronic illness that I’ve had since I was, like, 14 when I got my period.

(0:16:16) speaker_1: And it was, it’s been literally the only thing that has really mitigated all these horrible symptoms that I’ve been, like, suffering from and that’s why I continue to do it.

(0:16:28) speaker_1: So that’s one of the reasons why I, you know, wanted to make that, um, as another point in, you know, in my project is, is to really talk about like, you know, lack of medical history that adoptees face.

(0:16:42) speaker_1: Like, it’s a cr- this chronic illness is also a genetic illness and I didn’t get it diagnosed until I was 35 because it’s also, you know, hereditary, um, but if I would’ve gotten di- diagnosed earlier then there would’ve been all sort of, you know, all different sorts of treatment that I would’ve been eligible for.

(0:16:59) speaker_1: Um, but in any case, it’s like the running really helped.

(0:17:03) speaker_1: So then all those things sort of came together and, uh, this year is, as I said, is like the Big Dragon Year and so I came up with this idea of wanting to be like a running dragon and wanting to make some sort of, like, long term piece that could end in this big spectacular event, um, because as you know, you know, I have not met my first family despite searching for the last almost 30 years.

(0:17:30) speaker_1: And I thought maybe this is the last chance I have because I’m 48, you know, my parents are probably elderly or they may have already passed away and I thought this might be the last year and then I thought I want to make something, like, really kind of ostentatious, like spectacular, like get their, their, um, attention and maybe give them the courage to come forward and so this project will end with me running the JTBC Seoul Marathon in November.

(0:18:02) speaker_1:

(0:18:04) speaker_0: Oh, you’re running the Seoul Marathon?

(0:18:07) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:18:07) speaker_0: Wow.

(0:18:07) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:18:09) speaker_0: Wow. How do you… That-Have you done a marathon before?

(0:18:15) speaker_1: So my first marathon was, I guess it was, was it last year?

(0:18:18) speaker_1: My first marathon was last year in LA in March, and then my second marathon was last September in Berlin.

(0:18:27) speaker_0: I always have a fear, like, to…

(0:18:29) speaker_0: I mean, I’m not at all marathon ready (laughs), but you know that, okay, the first, you know, 10 miles might be okay, but then my body…

(0:18:38) speaker_0: You know, I have this fear that, “Oh, my body will give out.” But what happens to you?

(0:18:43) speaker_1: It’s really hard. I mean, you have… That’s what the training is there for.

(0:18:47) speaker_1: And what I love about running is, you know, I’m not very fast, um, but I, I know I can finish.

(0:18:53) speaker_1: It’s a, it’s totally, um, like a mental game that you’re playing with yourself when you’re running that far, and I think that’s why long distance running can bring so much, you know, just interest and challenge to all different types of people.

(0:19:09) speaker_1: So when I was running the LA marathon, like, I was so impressed with just, like, the different age groups and the different abilities, um, all the different, like, colors and ethnicities and races that you see out there.

(0:19:22) speaker_1: It’s like, it’s a sport that’s really for everyone, and I saw people also, um, running the marathon in, um, their, their, um… What is it called?

(0:19:32) speaker_1: I’m thinking in German. Um, they were, they were running in their, not a stroller. I’m s-

(0:19:41) speaker_0: Age group? Their age group?

(0:19:42) speaker_1: No, there, there was people who were, who were definitely physically, um, differently abled, and that they, they were still either, you know, walking it with a cane or they were in their, um, wheelchair.

(0:19:55) speaker_1: I’m sorry, wheelchair.

(0:19:56) speaker_1: (laughs) And I, it was just really so inspiring to see people that you wouldn’t think would be able to run a marathon, but then they fi- but they would finish.

(0:20:08) speaker_1: And it’s funny ’cause in my running group we have, like, this joke because there are several of us that are, you know, we’re just a lot slower than the others, and so we say that we represent the slow and sexy pace.

(0:20:18) speaker_1:

(0:20:19) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:20:20) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:20:22) speaker_0: I mean, it’s h- it’s really how you finish, really, right? (laughs)

(0:20:25) speaker_1: Yeah, I think so. It’s really… Like, I don’t have, like, a p- specific time that I usually, at least in the last two.

(0:20:34) speaker_1: I just wanna finish, and I want, um, to be below the time that they allow you to keep running, so I just try to shoot for that.

(0:20:44) speaker_0: You know, I’m finding that kind of interesting now that you’re describing some of these projects that, you know, you really take, you know…

(0:20:53) speaker_0: It’s sort of like your adoptee identity, and then you make it very physical.

(0:20:58) speaker_1: I guess-

(0:21:00) speaker_0: Right?

(0:21:00) speaker_1: …

(0:21:00) speaker_1: I’m always inspired by the personal, and especially with, like, my personal histories, I think it’s always entangled with other histories, um, like, or geopolitical, like, power dynamics or, you know, what, like, especially with other people who are adopted, I, it’s become more evident to me that, as I, like, kind of sat there as this person who was like, “Okay, I’m, like, this only person that I know who’s, who’s adopted, and this is my unique story,” and then when you meet, like, all these other people, then you start to realize that actually our fate is all tied up with each other.

(0:21:46) speaker_1: Like, we’re all really connected.

(0:21:48) speaker_0: Uh, what do you know about your, your origins?

(0:21:54) speaker_1: Well, I don’t know that much because I think…

(0:21:59) speaker_1: So I was adopted in the 1970s, and I think that’s a very different generation than people who were born after 1980 in terms of the amount of inf- information that they often were given or that they took the effort to actually type up for our adoption papers.

(0:22:21) speaker_1: So, my adoption papers were actually quite scarce, um, the information, I mean, that was given.

(0:22:29) speaker_1: But I do know that I was born in a hospital, um, called, uh, what is it called, the Dong Yeon Ha Clinic, which is no longer in the same location, but it was close to Dongdaemun.

(0:22:43) speaker_1: So usually, when I’m in Korea, I try to visit that space.

(0:22:48) speaker_0: Uh, they, d- d- so even though it’s a different location, do they not have records?

(0:22:55) speaker_1: Well, actually, I just found out that they moved locations.

(0:23:00) speaker_1: When I had gone back, I think, in 2000 maybe ’17 or 2014, I’m not exactly sure when I went back just to look again, um, it was a fitness studio, and then I just thought it had closed.

(0:23:13) speaker_1: Like, I just was really sad about not having taken more time to go back again, ’cause I had already been there, like, several times to try to get more information, um, which I can get to in just a minute.

(0:23:27) speaker_1: But recently, you know, through this project, I’m working with, um, an old friend of mine who’s doing a lot of the translations for my work, and so she was confirming the name of the hospital, and she had done some, you know, Google searching, and she said that there’s a new location now.

(0:23:46) speaker_1: So I may try to go to the new location when I’m back this summer just to have a look.

(0:23:51) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:23:51) speaker_1: Um-

(0:23:51) speaker_0: Right.

(0:23:52) speaker_1: …

(0:23:52) speaker_1: but in the original location, so when I was there, I guess I was 21, I had gone back with m- a social worker from Eastern where, you know, that’s my adoption agency, and, um, I had also gone back with Kim Mi Rok Byul.

(0:24:10) speaker_1: So the… We had gone back twice. And in each case they wouldn’t talk to us…. like, we were treated like trash.

(0:24:18) speaker_1: They, we went in to try to talk to the doctor that birthed me, because his name is actually on my paperwork, and he just-

(0:24:26) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:26) speaker_1: … yelled at us and told us to leave. Like, he refused to have a conversation with us in both cases.

(0:24:32) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, we were never supposed to come back.

(0:24:38) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah. And then they don’t know how to deal with us when we, when we return, right?

(0:24:43) speaker_1: I, I often find that when we did return, there was always this, like, um, they were, they tried to sort of look at us as though we were, like, the angry adoptees that had returned, so it pathologized, like, our experience and, especially because I went back so early, right, there was this idea of, like, “You should just be grateful for what you have over there and, and not come here anymore.

(0:25:13) speaker_1: “

(0:25:13) speaker_0: Yeah, I, I’ve gotten that same, I’ve had that same experience where you come back and you’re, you’re searching and people are like, um, you know, somehow we’re, we, we’re not following the rules, or we’re not, you know, by asking questions and wanting to know information that we don’t have, um, that somehow we’re, you know, um, we’re doing something wrong.

(0:25:45) speaker_0:

(0:25:45) speaker_1: Yeah, and I think for a lot of Koreans, we are, because it doesn’t really fit into their mindset about how, you know, members of society should be behaving, right?

(0:25:57) speaker_1: Because it is so patriarchal still, and it is so hierarchical, and then you have somebody who’s behaving in this way that they cannot fathom, right?

(0:26:09) speaker_1: Like, asking questions and, um, actually demanding, you know, the right to know.

(0:26:15) speaker_1: And I think that’s really shocking for many of them, especially for older men.

(0:26:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:26:21) speaker_1: Right?

(0:26:22) speaker_0: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

(0:26:23) speaker_0: Um, did you, were you given even a, were you given even, you know, quote unquote the story of being le- uh, you know, I guess you were born, you were born in a clinic, um, any thoughts of whether you were trafficked?

(0:26:42) speaker_0:

(0:26:42) speaker_1: Well, so let me tell you what it said in my paperwork. So, uh, you know, obviously there’s, like, two different files, right? You know this-

(0:26:49) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:26:49) speaker_1: … as well as I do, that there are two different files: the files that our adoptive parents get, and then the files that are held by the adoption agency.

(0:26:57) speaker_1: And so I ended up getting more information from the files in my adoption agency, but it’s all sort of hearsay.

(0:27:07) speaker_1: So, the things that it says in there, it really hurt my feelings, um, but again, you know, I, these days, I keep in mind that so many things were falsified that maybe that was just made up.

(0:27:24) speaker_1: And perhaps it was made up so that I wouldn’t ever look, you know-

(0:27:29) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:27:29) speaker_1: … if I do come back.

(0:27:31) speaker_1: So basically, what it said in my file was that, um, I was born at the hospital, and then the doctor called Eastern and referred me to Eastern.

(0:27:42) speaker_1: I mean, back then it wasn’t called Eastern. Back then it was called, um, uh, Korea Crusade (laughs) or something like that.

(0:27:50) speaker_0: Wow, okay.

(0:27:51) speaker_1: I mean, K- I mean, Eastern j- I don’t know if you know this, but Eastern, like, changed their name, like, four times. It’s, like, so suspicious.

(0:27:56) speaker_0: Oh, I didn’t know that. Okay.

(0:27:57) speaker_1: Yeah. First they were, first they were David Livingston Korea, which is, like, um, a f- an affiliation that they wanted to have with.

(0:28:06) speaker_1: David Livingston Tulsa, which later became Dilan, which you’ve probably heard of Dilan, right?

(0:28:12) speaker_0: Mm-hmm, of course.

(0:28:12) speaker_1: Like, ’cause Dilan, Dilan closed recently and they, they’re, like, demanding $50 from each adopted person (laughs) so that they can have their file.

(0:28:19) speaker_1: Yeah, anyway.

(0:28:20) speaker_0: Oh my God.

(0:28:21) speaker_1: So, it was David Livingston Korea, and then they changed their name to, um, (sighs) I think there was another name in between.

(0:28:30) speaker_1: Korea, I think there’s something in between, but then it was, like, Christian Crusade, or I’m sorry, Korea Crusade, or Christian.

(0:28:39) speaker_1: I think it was Korea Christian Crusade, and then after that it was, um, Eastern Child Welfare Society, and then they changed their name again to what it is now, which is, like, Eastern Social Welfare Society.

(0:28:50) speaker_1: And I’m just, like, boggled by that, like, mind-boggling. Like, why go through that work of changing your name in, like, such a short period of time?

(0:29:00) speaker_1: And I think they were just trying to rebrand themselves.

(0:29:02) speaker_0: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

(0:29:04) speaker_1: ‘Cause it’s all the same people, you know? It’s still the same founder and, um, the founder, I think he passed away, but his, his daughter is running Eastern.

(0:29:13) speaker_1:

(0:29:13) speaker_0: Was he, uh, was the, um, the people running Eastern way back, were they military folks?

(0:29:23) speaker_1: They were Christian missionaries.

(0:29:27) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:29:28) speaker_1: But they were, but they were Korean.

(0:29:30) speaker_0: Okay, ’cause I know, like, with Holt, a lot of the executives and people that were, um, you know, were given these positions, um, back in the day were, were actually from the military.

(0:29:44) speaker_0: They were, they were, you know, put in there f- by, you know, Park Chung Hee-

(0:29:51) speaker_1: Park Chung Hee.

(0:29:51) speaker_0: … and, you know, these, the former, you know, dictators of…

(0:29:54) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. I don’t know about that.

(0:29:56) speaker_1: So I don’t know, actually, enough about the history of, um, the different adoption agencies, so I can’t really answer that, but I do know that they were very motivated by Christianity and, and wanting to, you know, save all the brown babies-

(0:30:11) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:30:12) speaker_1: … and to make them Christian. (laughs)

(0:30:15) speaker_0: Got it.So, there, you’ve always kind of lived with this, um, you know, uneasiness of not having really adequate information.

(0:30:27) speaker_1: Oh, right. So let me get back to that. So my paperwork actually says, so I was born, and then two days later, the social worker came to pick me up.

(0:30:37) speaker_1: And so what is in my, in my paperwork is there’s this written note from her in my file, which I also find really strange because she’s…

(0:30:47) speaker_1: And she’s writing in a way that, um, you realize that she’s just writing down what the doctor told her. So she doesn’t actually know. She didn’t know anything.

(0:30:57) speaker_1:

(0:30:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:30:59) speaker_1: And what’s very curious about his story, which I find really suspicious, is he…

(0:31:06) speaker_1: So he claims that my parents were married and they already had three daughters and so I was supposed to be a boy.

(0:31:18) speaker_1: And so this was just, uh, a social economic or an economic decision, was that they couldn’t feed four people.

(0:31:25) speaker_1: I mean, if I was a boy, maybe that would have changed things, right?

(0:31:30) speaker_1: And that he apparently, this is what he said, he met with both my parents but separately to make sure that that’s what they wanted to do, was to relinquish me.

(0:31:43) speaker_1:

(0:31:43) speaker_0: And yet there’s no signature, any relinquishment.

(0:31:49) speaker_1: Exactly.

(0:31:50) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:31:50) speaker_1: And that’s the strange thing. So it almost like he said that to cover his ass, like he’s worried that something might-

(0:31:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:31:57) speaker_1: … come back in the, in the future.

(0:32:00) speaker_1: And then, and then Kimura, you know, was very, um, I think quite, um, b- be- because of all the experience that, that they had with all the searches, they were quite, um, on the side that he was hiding something from us.

(0:32:17) speaker_1: (laughs) And so I remember when we had gone, like, we were there outside the office and there was a nurse who was actually blocking our way (laughs) to go into the office.

(0:32:30) speaker_1: I think I was like 20 or 21. Totally inexperienced, like completely terrified.

(0:32:36) speaker_1: And then they just like bust on into his office and it’s like, you know, saying, to get the information, and he starts yelling at us, like really mean.

(0:32:47) speaker_1: You know, he’s like using (Korean) with us as well.

(0:32:51) speaker_1: And, um, he’s like saying like, (Korean), like really ugly, like totally unprofessional and just like really traumatizing.

(0:32:59) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:32:59) speaker_1: And, um, and then Kimura I remember said, and at that point like my Korean was a little bit better so I could kind of understand like a couple of things that they said, but they were like, “How many babies did you sell from here, from your hospital?

(0:33:13) speaker_1: ” You know? And he got so angry and yeah. Then in the end like it became obviously really threatening and then we left.

(0:33:22) speaker_0: Hmm. Wow. That’s heavy.

(0:33:24) speaker_0: Um, that’s interesting though that the doctor was so angry that you had come back and were asking questions and i- it does, it is a bit suspect.

(0:33:39) speaker_1: Yeah, because you would think, like, if you’d actually done everything correctly and that was really what happened, that he would’ve, you know, invited us in for a cup of coffee and maybe said to us like, “I’m really sorry, but this is what happened.

(0:33:53) speaker_1: ” Uh, apparently, like all the papers just, like, I don’t know if they got lost or they were, there was a fire.

(0:33:59) speaker_1: It’s like there’s a fire at every single hospital in Korea at that time.

(0:34:03) speaker_0: I think you have kind of a distinct look. I mean, I don’t know if it’s…

(0:34:08) speaker_0: Uh, h- have you, when you’ve been back in Korea, do you, do you kind of do the thing where you’re scanning and looking at women?

(0:34:15) speaker_1: I do. I do. I think I’ve never seen anybody that looks like me.

(0:34:21) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:34:22) speaker_1: I mean, there are like very kind of typical Korean archetypes that you sometimes see, and I don’t think I have any of those. And I don’t know.

(0:34:32) speaker_1: I mean, I’m not really sure what that means.

(0:34:34) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:34:34) speaker_1: Um, but yeah, I think I feel a little bit groundless in some sense, because even when I had returned, which was actually not in, you know, when I first returned in 1997, I actually did not, I was not ready to do any sort of searching for my birth family at that time.

(0:34:53) speaker_1: Um, I still felt like, oh, I don’t look like anybody here.

(0:34:57) speaker_0: I wonder, um, so you’ve been searching for 30 years?

(0:35:09) speaker_1: I guess since like ’98. I think ’98 was the first time I was on TV.

(0:35:13) speaker_0: Obviously you’re, you’re still searching, but have you, you know, where are you in your thought process on that? Have you…

(0:35:22) speaker_0: You know, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s probably, um, you’ve probably concluded that it may not… You m- there’s a possibility you might never find them.

(0:35:33) speaker_0:

(0:35:33) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s what most of us have to deal with, that search, right? Because what is it, like 15% or 16% are successful who search.

(0:35:45) speaker_1: And so I think most of us actually have to deal with that, that unknown. What happens when we can’t have that connection to our ancestry?

(0:35:54) speaker_1: You know, we, we don’t get access to medical history.

(0:35:58) speaker_1: Um, and I’m, I’m n- and I’m not saying that like suddenly you meet your birth family and then you have all access to everything.

(0:36:06) speaker_1: That’s not what I’m, you know, um, fantasizing about.

(0:36:09) speaker_1: I know that doesn’t always happen either, but there does seem to be a little bit more, you know, rootedness, I think, with just……

(0:36:18) speaker_1: sort of the acknowledgment that this is your origin story and this is where you come from.

(0:36:24) speaker_1: So for me, I think I struggle with, um, the idea of how to make family, like what, what is chosen family for me, and then how do I find, like, my belonging or my place in my chosen family.

(0:36:40) speaker_1: I think that’s part of it, and that’s not without challenges either, for sure.

(0:36:45) speaker_0: And have you found, uh, a cho- a, you know, a rootedness or, like, an alternative rootedness?

(0:36:53) speaker_1: I think so. I mean, I…

(0:36:55) speaker_1: So I’ve been here in Berlin, um, 15 years, a little over 15 years, and, you know, I’m actually married to a Korean German, so somebody who’s half Korean and half German.

(0:37:08) speaker_1: And so I’ve been really sort of integrated into, um, his family, and interestingly enough, like, completely accepted (laughs) by, as a Korean person, by his father, which, you know, when we first started dating, it was a real fear, right?

(0:37:29) speaker_1: Because since I’m adopted, there’s this idea that I don’t know where my root is, so often, especially adopted women, you know, we’re, we get rejected often from, like, Korean families.

(0:37:40) speaker_1: Um, I think it’s different for, you know, and I’m speaking, like, specifically in heterosexual re- relationships.

(0:37:49) speaker_1: I think if it’s a adopted man, he often has, um, an easier time becoming accepted by the family, you know, since it’s this patriarchal, um, you know, legacy anyway in Korea.

(0:38:03) speaker_1: Uh, but in the end, it, it… I think my father-in-law was just so happy that I was a Korean person (laughs) in the end.

(0:38:12) speaker_0: Hmm. Okay, and so you had this fear going into the relationship that you would not be accepted.

(0:38:20) speaker_1: I mean, not in… Initially, because we didn’t even think it was gonna, we didn’t even know we were gonna be serious, right?

(0:38:27) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:27) speaker_1: We were just hanging out.

(0:38:28) speaker_1: But then after we got serious, there was, on my side, there was this fear that I wouldn’t be accepted as an adopted person, and then it…

(0:38:35) speaker_1: My partner’s fear was that I wouldn’t be accepted as an American. (laughs)

(0:38:40) speaker_0: Oh. (laughs)

(0:38:41) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:38:42) speaker_0: And what was the reality? What happened?

(0:38:44) speaker_1: It’s so funny. Like, my father-in-law doesn’t even see me as being an American. He just sees me as being a Korean person.

(0:38:50) speaker_0: Hmm. Right. Yeah. And they were happy you were Korean?

(0:38:53) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:38:55) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:38:55) speaker_1: But, you know, that’s also interesting, because there’s all sorts of expectations that come with being perceived as a Korean.

(0:39:06) speaker_0: The-

(0:39:06) speaker_1: And often I, I have to remind him that, you know, there are things about the expectations, like, for the myeondari, like the daughter-in-law, right?

(0:39:17) speaker_1: Like, I don’t know that stuff. And, and maybe I do know that stuff, but I’m not gonna do that ’cause I’m a feminist.

(0:39:26) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:39:26) speaker_1: You know? (laughs)

(0:39:28) speaker_0: Right. Oh. Interesting.

(0:39:30) speaker_1: So there’s all sorts of these, like… It’s not just cultural.

(0:39:33) speaker_1: It’s also a generational difference, because he immigrated to Germany as a minor in the 1960s, so he was in the first wave-

(0:39:41) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:39:41) speaker_1: … that came as guest workers, and then he met my partner’s, um, mother, who was, you know, working at a, uh, at a book shop, and they met in, like, the…

(0:39:51) speaker_1: It’s a very post-industrial, um, city that had a lot of mining back then in the Ruhrgebiet area.

(0:40:00) speaker_1: So even though he’s, like, pretty progressive in a lot of ways, like, I mean, he married, like, outside of a Korean society.

(0:40:10) speaker_1: Um, he still has a lot of beliefs, or his world view comes from, like, 1960s Kore- South Korea (laughs) when he left.

(0:40:19) speaker_1: And I think that’s really the case for a lot of the Korean diaspora, especially also in the United States.

(0:40:27) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:40:28) speaker_1: And, I mean, we, I think people talk about that often, that, like, people who live in Korea are often more progressive than the Koreans who left and are in the diaspora, but they, in that time that they left, they sort of…

(0:40:42) speaker_1: That, that has sort of been frozen for them.

(0:40:44) speaker_0: You know, that’s true… Ha! You know, I think that happens with a lot of different groups.

(0:40:50) speaker_0: Like, I, I remember when I lived in Michigan, that, you know, there was just, um…

(0:40:55) speaker_0: You heard about the Christian Reformed Dutch that came over, and they came over at a specific period of time where Netherlands was becoming too liberal.

(0:41:05) speaker_0:

(0:41:05) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:41:06) speaker_0: And they, uh…

(0:41:07) speaker_0: A lot of them were farmers and from the, the more conservative areas, and they wanted (laughs), uh, conservatism, and, and they are very conservative.

(0:41:18) speaker_0: They’re in the western part of the state.

(0:41:20) speaker_1: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh.

(0:41:21) speaker_0: And, uh, and it’s very interesting because the…

(0:41:25) speaker_0: They’re very differe- I mean, eh, you know, this is all total gene- generalization, but, you know, the time, um, you know, like, they, for example, they celebrate, like, Tulip Time, and they’ve got the sweeping of the streets and the wooden shoes.

(0:41:41) speaker_0: And I remember, ’cause I lived there for a time, I remember there were, there were Dutch tourists there, that, like-

(0:41:47) speaker_1: Wow.

(0:41:47) speaker_0: …

(0:41:47) speaker_0: came for the f- you know, they were, mm, at the festival, and they actually thought it was pretty ridiculous because (laughs) they were like, “This is very old-timey, uh, you know, Dutch custom,” that they don’t really celebrate it now.

(0:42:04) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:42:04) speaker_1: Right.

(0:42:04) speaker_0: And, and then-

(0:42:05) speaker_1: So there’s a, there’s… It must see- seem to them like a very-

(0:42:08) speaker_0: Like trapped in time.

(0:42:09) speaker_1: … sort of weird, weird nostalgia, right? That they’ve, like-

(0:42:12) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:42:13) speaker_1: … modernized since then.

(0:42:14) speaker_0: And us, you know, in the US, we’re like, “Oh, this is Dutch. This is what it means, you know, as culture.”

(0:42:19) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:42:19) speaker_0: And you actually have, like, modern Dutch people that were observing this and thinking it was very, like-… an o- like a time capsule. (laughs)

(0:42:28) speaker_1: Mm. Mm.

(0:42:29) speaker_0: History. So-

(0:42:30) speaker_1: That’s true.

(0:42:31) speaker_0: But, um, uh, I wanted to get back to…

(0:42:34) speaker_0: What- what’s an example of something that your father-in-law may have expected, uh, you know, a traditional s- uh, daughter-in-law, that you refused to do because of your feminism?

(0:42:45) speaker_0:

(0:42:45) speaker_1: Well, I don’t know if I can name anything specific, but there were certainly, there were certainly times when I really was lacking nunchi.

(0:42:53) speaker_1: I don’t know if… Do you know what-

(0:42:55) speaker_0: No.

(0:42:55) speaker_1: … nunchi is?

(0:42:55) speaker_0: Yeah. Do you wanna explain it for our listeners?

(0:42:57) speaker_1: Sure. So nunchi. I mean, I guess we could call it in English like akumen, right? It’s just like awareness of… But I- it means so much more-

(0:43:06) speaker_0: Understand.

(0:43:06) speaker_1: … in Korean, of course.

(0:43:08) speaker_1: It’s like an awareness of, um, how people are feeling, your relationship to the people, your h- like where you stand (laughs) in the hierarchy.

(0:43:16) speaker_1: And it’s a very, I think… At least nunchi is a very specific Korean, I think, um, phenomenon that you can’t just describe in an English word.

(0:43:28) speaker_1: Um, but there are certain things that like I don’t know because I don’t understand the signals that he’s sending me of things, like when he wants something or when he’s upset about something.

(0:43:40) speaker_1: Like sometimes I’m totally, um, bamboozled by it all because I didn’t grow up that way, and so there were some times where there, there were like some hardcore like cultural differences that we were really struggling with.

(0:43:56) speaker_1: And I mean, there’s one thing that he, he really likes it, like he loves it when I speak Korean to him and, um, you know, my Korean is, is very lacking but I think I’m quite good with, um, chonbae mal.

(0:44:15) speaker_1: Like I’m quite good with the different ways that you can even be more polite in like these very hierarchical ways. I can do that but-

(0:44:26) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(0:44:27) speaker_1: … um, and he loves that.

(0:44:28) speaker_1: But then when we’re having these moments where it’s like really difficult for us to communicate and I’m feeling like maybe he’s imposing certain values on me that, you know, I wouldn’t naturally do by myself then I t- I switch to en- to…

(0:44:42) speaker_1: I mean, I switch to German.

(0:44:44) speaker_1: So German is actually our, our common language and that’s the language that, that I, um, I s- met him in, so it feels more comfortable for me and his German is better than mine because he’s like been here longer than I have, um, but he also feels like there’s a, like a gap, you know, be- between how he can express himself so of course he like prefers to just speak in Korean.

(0:45:11) speaker_1:

(0:45:11) speaker_0: Well, he’s got the upper hand in both languages.

(0:45:15) speaker_1: (laughs) Exactly. Exactly. So… But I do have to say that, um, English and German are much more similar than, you know, Korean and German for example.

(0:45:25) speaker_1: So I did learn German a lot faster probably than he did, but he’s still better than I am.

(0:45:31) speaker_1: I mean, especially with like reading comprehension and, um, and listening.

(0:45:37) speaker_0: Well, is it, um, a much more direct language like English is?

(0:45:40) speaker_1: It, it is but it isn’t. I mean, Germans are direct but only to a certain extent. I think…

(0:45:48) speaker_1: I would say I think Americans are more, more direct in certain ways. There’s a… I think there’s a tendency in German for…

(0:45:57) speaker_1: Americans are just kind of like direct all the time but I feel like Germans are direct only in certain situations and so other times, like if things are sort of sensitive they’ll like talk around the issue.

(0:46:10) speaker_1:

(0:46:11) speaker_0: Mm. Okay. And what about your partner? He’s… Is it he, he’s or-

(0:46:17) speaker_1: He’s, he’s half Korean, yeah, half, half German.

(0:46:21) speaker_1: So, uh, as I mentioned his father’s Korean, his mother’s German and, um, he’s a trained physicist but he’s, you know, now working in a, in a tech firm and we, (laughs) we actually met, um, through, uh, another Korean-German friend who kind of fixed us up without letting us know.

(0:46:43) speaker_1: (laughs) So it’s really… Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(0:46:49) speaker_0: Uh, does he f- similarly f- somet-… I mean, not similarly because he’s not adopted or American-

(0:46:56) speaker_1: Right.

(0:46:56) speaker_0: Does he f- often does he feel like he has expectations of him from his Korean father to be a Korean male or does he somehow get a pass from all that because he’s…

(0:47:10) speaker_0:

(0:47:10) speaker_1: Well, I… You know, I’m not sure-

(0:47:12) speaker_0: Um…

(0:47:12) speaker_1: … how his father feels about the situation now but I can only imagine that he feels a little bit, um, remorseful for not speaking Korean to his kids.

(0:47:25) speaker_1: So when my father-in-law came to Germany and, you know, especially when he was…

(0:47:30) speaker_1: He, he served as a minor for, I don’t know what it was, like the agreement was like seven years or something and then you could go to college after that and he was just so busy trying to integrate into German culture that he stopped speaking Korean to his kids and there’s two of them.

(0:47:47) speaker_1: There’s two brothers.

(0:47:47) speaker_0: Mm.

(0:47:47) speaker_2: Yes.

(0:47:48) speaker_1: And he-

(0:47:49) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:47:49) speaker_1: …

(0:47:49) speaker_1: didn’t really express his emotions about that but I think he regrets that very much because my partner doesn’t speak hardly any Korean except for like he knows like all the food names and things like that (laughs).

(0:48:04) speaker_1:

(0:48:04) speaker_0: Mm.

(0:48:04) speaker_1: And he’s actually a really good cook-

(0:48:05) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:48:05) speaker_1: … so I really benefit from really good Korean food even though, you know, we’re not in Korea. He’s just a very good cook in general. Um, yeah.

(0:48:15) speaker_0: You… I, I have a question about this. This is kind of my own kind of… But i- are you connected with the Korean-German adoptee community?

(0:48:25) speaker_1: Yeah. So, you know, most of them are actually located like in central, like western, or the southern, uh-…

(0:48:31) speaker_1: area of Germany, so I don’t, I haven’t met, like, the majority of them because they’re located somewhere else.

(0:48:39) speaker_1: But I think I know probably a good number, like, 15, 20 that I can come into contact with that live in Berlin.

(0:48:48) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Okay.

(0:48:49) speaker_1: And they’re pretty active.

(0:48:51) speaker_1: I mean, they’re less active than the other European groups, for sure, um, in terms of, like, their political activism and their education, sort of, like, trying to disperse out, like, information about what’s going on in Korea, but it’s starting.

(0:49:08) speaker_1: I mean, I totally have seen this transformation that has happened since I’ve been here, because when I first came, there wer- there weren’t any, I think, organized groups yet.

(0:49:16) speaker_1:

(0:49:18) speaker_0: Okay. Um…

(0:49:19) speaker_1: (sighs) Sure.

(0:49:21) speaker_0: Nidhi, I, uh, I, you know, I know you told me earlier that you are a sexual abuse survivor, like myself.

(0:49:30) speaker_1: Oh, I, I’m, I’m a, I’m an emotional abuse survivor. I’m not a sexual abuse survivor.

(0:49:36) speaker_0: Oh, okay, okay. Okay, I see.

(0:49:38) speaker_1: I mean, I mean… Okay, I, are you talking about, like, from a family member?

(0:49:42) speaker_0: Yes.

(0:49:43) speaker_1: Okay. I mean, I was, I mean, I’ll be hon- I was raped before, but I wouldn’t call that sexual abuse from my family. It was from somebody else that I knew.

(0:49:52) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:49:53) speaker_0: A non-family member?

(0:49:54) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:49:54) speaker_0: Okay. Um, so in keeping with the theme of the, the dragon…

(0:50:02) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:50:02) speaker_0: Um, you wanted to challenge yourself and, um, maybe talk about some hard topics.

(0:50:09) speaker_0: Is there something that you wanted to talk about here about your childhood or the way you were, you know, you were raised, your family?

(0:50:18) speaker_1: Yeah, let’s talk about that. I think I’m ready to talk about it.

(0:50:22) speaker_1: I feel like I’ve been silenced (laughs) for so long about my family issues, and I think I’ve had, like, so much shame around it that, um, it’s been really hard for me to, to be present with other adoptees.

(0:50:38) speaker_1: Um, one thing that maybe I can also say that I think is kind of interesting as I’ve sort of come back into our community, because I was really active when I first went to Korea in the early 2000s and met many of the, you know, people who had returned around that time, but then kind of receded into the background for quite a long time to do some, you know, personal healing.

(0:51:03) speaker_1: And I wonder if it’s, um, possible to deal with, or at least in my experience, like, I think I was really focused on dealing with my Korean identity, but I didn’t give myself the space to think about my adopted identity.

(0:51:25) speaker_1: I don’t even know if that’s possible, but that’s what it really feels like for me-

(0:51:29) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:51:29) speaker_1: … is that I almost split those two in half.

(0:51:33) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:33) speaker_1: And that’s why I probably had a lot of problems in some ways. Like, you can’t sort of separate them. It was like, for me-

(0:51:43) speaker_0: That makes sense.

(0:51:43) speaker_1: …

(0:51:44) speaker_1: it had to be totally two separate things, so, so which is why, you know, I have so many Korean American second generation and also Korean German second generation friends, but I don’t have as many adoptive friends.

(0:51:58) speaker_1: You know, m- maybe for some reason I didn’t allow myself to be close to them.

(0:52:03) speaker_1: Like, I can count probably on one hand people who are adopted that I’m friends with.

(0:52:09) speaker_1: But, like, in terms of, like, Korean second generation, I probably have, l- like, at least 20 friends.

(0:52:16) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:52:17) speaker_1: S- so that’s something that I think I’m thinking a lot about, like, processing that now.

(0:52:22) speaker_1: Um, but in terms of, like, this idea of being silenced, I think I mentioned to you before that, you know, first of all, when I was really little, I had a speech impediment, so nobody could understand me.

(0:52:34) speaker_1: (laughs) Nobody understood what I was trying to say for the longest time, and everyone just assumed that I was speaking Korean.

(0:52:43) speaker_1: I mean, I was, like, six years old, s- like, with my adoptive parents. People just thought I was speaking in Korean. (laughs)

(0:52:50) speaker_0: Oh, wow. (laughs) Where did you grow up?

(0:52:52) speaker_1: I grew up, um, outside of Detroit, like, in a Detroit suburb in Michigan.

(0:52:56) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:52:59) speaker_1: I, for the longest time, I had wished I had grown up in Minn- Min- Minnesota.

(0:53:04) speaker_0: Oh, because of all the adoptees?

(0:53:06) speaker_1: Yes. I did- I think I just never met somebody really until I went to… I never met a Korean person until I went to college.

(0:53:15) speaker_0: But, you know, um, you know, we’re similar age and, uh, you know, timeframe that we grew up, 70s and 80s, and I, I grew up in Minnesota, and I, I didn’t have one adoptee friend.

(0:53:30) speaker_0: I mean, I did when I was very young for a brief time-

(0:53:34) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:53:34) speaker_0: … but it’s not like… I- i- it’s ve- it’s… I don’t know how to explain it, but there are a lot per capita of adoptees here-

(0:53:43) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:53:44) speaker_0: … or that were adopted here.

(0:53:45) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:53:46) speaker_0: But a lot of us are very isolated because we’re, you know, we’re, we land in these very kind of all white kind of rural towns, a lot of us, and-

(0:53:57) speaker_1: That’s true.

(0:53:57) speaker_0: … we’re very insulated from each other. We don’t have resources. We don’t have… We- we grow up-

(0:54:03) speaker_1: Right. Yeah.

(0:54:04) speaker_0: … wanting to repel each other, you know, not wanting to connect with other adoptees, you know, the parts that we might feel ambivalent about ourselves.

(0:54:13) speaker_0:

(0:54:13) speaker_1: I thought there were camps though in-

(0:54:16) speaker_0: There, there-

(0:54:17) speaker_1: … in Minnesota.

(0:54:17) speaker_0: Yeah. There are camps, but I think these, those came online, I feel like, in the 80s, and, you know, um, by that time, you know, ’89…

(0:54:30) speaker_1: We were probably… We had, like, aged out-

(0:54:32) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:54:32) speaker_1: … by that time.

(0:54:32) speaker_0: Right.

(0:54:32) speaker_1: Like, it wasn’t, it wasn’t age appropriate for us-

(0:54:35) speaker_0: ’89-

(0:54:35) speaker_1: … at that point.

(0:54:35) speaker_0: … ’89 I graduated from high school, so, you know…

(0:54:40) speaker_1: Right. Yeah, yeah.

(0:54:40) speaker_0: I think maybe the generation just sort of next, maybe they really benefited from the camps being known.

(0:54:47) speaker_0: But of course, you know, my parents, we lived in small towns and they were not connected to other adoptive parents even.

(0:54:56) speaker_1: Hmm. Okay. I guess it’s just my fantasy. (laughs)

(0:55:01) speaker_0: (laughs) Yeah. 10,000-

(0:55:02) speaker_1: 10,000-

(0:55:03) speaker_0: Sorry.

(0:55:03) speaker_1: … 10,000 adoptees and 10,000 lakes.

(0:55:04) speaker_0: Sorry to burst your bubble here about your fantasy.

(0:55:06) speaker_1: (laughs) Okay.

(0:55:07) speaker_1: Yeah, so I grew up in Detroit and, um, that’s one really, one thing that I noticed that I felt quite different when I first started connecting with, um, other Korean adoptees is, you know, like I never thought I was white.

(0:55:21) speaker_1: And I think it’s because I grew up in Detroit because from the time I can remember, like, probably being five years old, like, I was made fun of so badly by white kids and Black kids.

(0:55:34) speaker_1: And so I knew there’s something different about me from the very beginning. I didn’t sort of fit into either camp.

(0:55:44) speaker_1: And, um, not that there were, like, so many Black kids that went to my school, but there were certainly some.

(0:55:52) speaker_1: And then being in proximity to the city, right, where there was so much palpable, like, racial tension, I think I just sort of internalized that growing up.

(0:56:05) speaker_1: I mean, people knew that I was adopted, um, in my school for sure.

(0:56:10) speaker_1: I think my mother tried to really protect me in that way, but she didn’t really know how to. Does that make sense?

(0:56:18) speaker_1: Like, her way of protecting me was just sort of denying that I was even different.

(0:56:24) speaker_1: Um, and then when I had, like, the speech impediment and I had to go to, like, these special needs, like, um, classes, like, she was really angry.

(0:56:35) speaker_1: Like, I remember that. Like, she didn’t want me to be treated differently and, um, I think she was embarrassed actually.

(0:56:43) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, but I just had a problem, I think, pronouncing words and, uh, that maybe was another cause for, like, maybe a- a little bit of an inferiority complex that, like, came out later.

(0:56:58) speaker_1: And I also was, like, a very talkative child, so it was really funny because I would be talking all the time and then my older sister, who’s, um, we’re not- we’re not biologically related but she’s also, you know, adopted from Korea.

(0:57:11) speaker_1: She’s the- she’s my, um, my second sister. She could understand me just because we’d grown up together.

(0:57:19) speaker_1: And so people literally thought that we were speaking in Korean and that (laughs) my sister was translating for me.

(0:57:27) speaker_1: It was ridi- it was just ridiculous, you know? Even though, like, everybody even knew that we were adopted, like, from the time we were babies.

(0:57:34) speaker_0: Wait, your sister’s white?

(0:57:36) speaker_1: No, no, no. My sister’s also adopted from Korea. My second sister.

(0:57:39) speaker_0: Oh, okay. Okay.

(0:57:41) speaker_1: And it was just, like, funny because everybody knew that we were adopted from the time that we were really little, but they still thought we were speaking in Korean.

(0:57:49) speaker_1:

(0:57:49) speaker_0: You know, it’s interesting because as you, as I’m listening to you now, you have a very precise way of talking. Like, you have very precise English.

(0:57:57) speaker_1: Oh.

(0:57:57) speaker_0: I think.

(0:57:58) speaker_1: Thank you. (laughs)

(0:57:59) speaker_0: You think?

(0:58:01) speaker_1: I mean, I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe it’s from learning all those languages.

(0:58:05) speaker_0: I don’t know, but I wondered if that was something that you felt, like, subconsciously.

(0:58:09) speaker_1: Oh, that’s probably true because of all these- these speech classes I had to take-

(0:58:14) speaker_0: Right, and-

(0:58:14) speaker_1: … because people… (laughs)

(0:58:15) speaker_0: … and, like, whether, like, um, that you felt like something, that that was something you had to overcome or that you had to, like-

(0:58:26) speaker_1: Probably.

(0:58:26) speaker_0: … prove yourself to be even better than the, someone without an im- natural impediment.

(0:58:31) speaker_1: That’s probably true, and, you know, and I also had this, and I think I mentioned to you before, like, it’s a very unfortunate first memory, but my first memory o- of my father was- was he was taunting me, um, because I was talking too much.

(0:58:46) speaker_1: And you know, it’s like you’re a little kid and you’re just, like, constantly asking questions and just being, like, all around, like, annoying ’cause you’re just curious and you say anything that comes into your unfiltered mind, right?

(0:58:58) speaker_1: Uh, but he as somebody who was obviously, like, really emotionally stunted, um, didn’t know how to deal with that.

(0:59:06) speaker_1: And so I became sort of a- an emotional sort of punching bag for them, so they used to tease me and tell me to stop talking and, like, so my kind of nickname was Motor Mouth-

(0:59:18) speaker_0: Oh.

(0:59:18) speaker_1: … at that time.

(0:59:19) speaker_1: And everybody called me that, so my mom called me that, my sister called me that, and he was really sort of nas- the most nasty about it.

(0:59:30) speaker_1: And, um, it’s funny because that memory came back actually when I was going through therapy about, maybe, like, about 10 years ago, and then that’s why I realized why I have sometimes a lot of public speaking fear.

(0:59:44) speaker_1: I mean, now it’s so much better than it used to be ’cause I, like, force myself to give all these artist talks, but when I first desired to be, like, talking about my work on more of a, you know, public stage, I really had to work through a lot of trauma from my childhood, and that was one of the first things that I- I think I had to confront.

(1:00:05) speaker_1:

(1:00:05) speaker_0: Of course, of course. What would you say, um, how would you characterize your relationship with your dad?

(1:00:14) speaker_1: Well, he passed away in, um, 2000… When did he pass away? In 2019. Uh, we had already been estranged for quite a while.

(1:00:26) speaker_1: Uh, I’m continuing, I, unfortunately, I’m continuing to be estranged (laughs) from my adoptive family, um, but I have…

(1:00:35) speaker_1: It’s funny, I’m not sure which y- word to use, but I’ve united or, I mean, I can’t say reunited because I had never met her before, but I’ve met and-…

(1:00:49) speaker_1: you know, um, started a relationship with my first sister and it’s quite a complicated family dynamic.

(1:01:00) speaker_1: So my first sister is, um, not Korean and she’s not adopted, but she is half Taiwanese and half White, so half- basically half German American.

(1:01:15) speaker_1: And she’s the- the biological daughter of my adoptive father, who I didn’t grow up with.

(1:01:24) speaker_0: Oh, okay. So when you say first sister, you mean that your- it’s your adoptive father’s child?

(1:01:34) speaker_1: Biological daughter, yes.

(1:01:35) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:01:36) speaker_1: Yes.

(1:01:36) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:01:38) speaker_1: And he was apparently, you know… And you have to, um, understand that I didn’t get any inf- much of information about her from him.

(1:01:47) speaker_1: It’s much of what I’ve learned about what happened is really through her.

(1:01:53) speaker_1: So, he was married to her mother when he was in the military stationed in Taiwan, and, um, basically at two years old he left them and I’m not sure exactly what happened.

(1:02:09) speaker_1: I think, like, back in the day was much…

(1:02:11) speaker_1: It’s not like it is now where you can just call people up on, you know, WhatsApp or something and have conversations with people by Zoom.

(1:02:19) speaker_1: I think it was really difficult.

(1:02:21) speaker_1: I don’t know what c- there was definitely a fight between them and then it was sort of decided that, you know, he would continue and go back to the US and that she would stay in Taiwan with their daughter, who’s my sister.

(1:02:36) speaker_1: And my sister then when she was 17, her mother made it possible for her to move to the US so that she wouldn’t lose her US citizenship.

(1:02:52) speaker_0: And how did you find each other?

(1:02:56) speaker_1: I found her through Facebook. (laughs)

(1:02:58) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:03:00) speaker_1: I know, it’s just like, how did I know that she existed? I mean-

(1:03:02) speaker_0: So your parents- your parents told you about her?

(1:03:06) speaker_1: They had to. I mean, I think they felt really trapped.

(1:03:11) speaker_1: So, what happened was, um, my sister, Mia, she, you know, was living in the US by that point and she knew obviously about my father, and then she decided to try to make contact.

(1:03:28) speaker_1: And she tried to make contact several times, but she always was blocked. She couldn’t, she could never, she would leave messages.

(1:03:37) speaker_1: I don’t know if the messages were just not getting to him, um, but nobody ever called her back.

(1:03:43) speaker_1: She would even- she would call the house, um, it was always like, “He’s not here.

(1:03:50) speaker_1: ” And so she finally decided just to drive out to Michigan to see if she could meet him in person, like as her sort of last chance, and it was when her mother was dying.

(1:04:02) speaker_1: So I think that was another sort of reason for thinking about, you know, family and where she had come from.

(1:04:12) speaker_1: And, um, the- the visit didn’t go over very well. I- I wasn’t at my parents’ house at that time, but basically she was rejected-

(1:04:24) speaker_0: Wow.

(1:04:24) speaker_1: … from my adoptive parents. I think it was e- it was extremely painful, and, um, actually it makes me really sad to even just talk about it.

(1:04:33) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:04:35) speaker_1: Because like as an adopted person, right? Like, that…

(1:04:40) speaker_1: I just think like that they- they couldn’t open their hearts, like even after they had adopted two children, right?

(1:04:48) speaker_1: That they couldn’t open their hearts to, you know, be- be there and to be even like- to be open to meeting someone from the past. Like it just…

(1:05:03) speaker_1: It- it just…

(1:05:05) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:05:06) speaker_1: I don’t know. I mean, it just makes me feel like just so in despair for myself. (laughs)

(1:05:12) speaker_0: Sounds like your- your parents were complicated people.

(1:05:17) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean both of them were married before they married each other.

(1:05:22) speaker_1: Um, again like a lot of family secrets because I didn’t find that out until much later as an adult.

(1:05:30) speaker_1: Um, I think they both had a- really traumatic experiences as well, so they weren’t emotionally able to- to deal with things in a way I think that would have been more harmonious for us all.

(1:05:47) speaker_1: So my sister was rejected and then she, you know, ended up, like for her it was, you know, she’d sort of closed the- the chapter on that part of her life and she ended up, you know, um, going back home to California and she never contacted him again.

(1:06:08) speaker_1: And I- you know, so I found out and there is something really painful that came out of that which my- my mother, um, you know, I think she felt very threatened.

(1:06:27) speaker_1: Um, she couldn’t deal with… I’m sure she gave him an ultimatum. I’m just imagining, right?

(1:06:35) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:06:35) speaker_1: That sh- it was just really difficult for her to-

(1:06:38) speaker_0: Somehow it was very open to have-

(1:06:40) speaker_1: … her heart.

(1:06:43) speaker_0: … your s- to have s- you know, your sister come.

(1:06:45) speaker_1: Right. And I’m also, you know, trying to be compassionate to that but…

(1:06:51) speaker_1: What’s so disappointing about the situation is that, um, my mother told me that her mother was a prostitute (laughs) and it couldn’t…

(1:07:02) speaker_1: That she couldn’t possibly be my father’s daughter because this prostitute had tried to pin this on all of the men that were stationed there.

(1:07:18) speaker_1: And I just, I think, you know, it just continues to perpetuate this very racist and sexist perception of, you know, Asian women that we’re all prostitutes, right?

(1:07:34) speaker_1: I mean, my parents also told me that, you know, if they hadn’t have saved me, that I would’ve been a prostitute like my mother.

(1:07:46) speaker_1: So this tends to be, I think, this kind of narrative that keeps getting told, especially in my experience of listening to other people’s, you know, um, adoption experiences, that was, I don’t know, maybe told to them by the adoption agencies.

(1:08:03) speaker_1: Um, also just like the kind of prevalent mentality of, you know, of Amer- what Americans thought about Asia because of the military occupation and all the racist and sexist films that were produced at that time.

(1:08:21) speaker_1:

(1:08:23) speaker_0: Well, it just boggles my mind too that your, your, your father and your mother, um, you know, harbored these kind of racis- these racist attitudes about Asian women and, you know, being sexualized or, you know, prostitutes.

(1:08:43) speaker_0: And your father w- had been in the military (laughs) and, and then they would adopt daughters from Asia.

(1:08:54) speaker_1: I mean, I think that’s part of it though, right?

(1:08:56) speaker_1: Because, so they were very motivated, you know, not just because of the infertility, right, that, that my, I’m assuming that my mother experienced.

(1:09:06) speaker_1: Um, but it was really driven by this Christian savior mentality. I mean, I was going to church like three times a week when I was a kid.

(1:09:15) speaker_0: Wow, okay. That’s-

(1:09:19) speaker_1: And I had a really hard time with Christianity, with the religion, you know, when I was in my early 20s where I would, I just would even just be triggered by going to a church.

(1:09:30) speaker_1:

(1:09:33) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:09:33) speaker_1: I mean, that’s really common though. I think specifically in our generation, there were a lot of parents who were motivated by their Christian values.

(1:09:47) speaker_1: And as you know, you know, nowadays like people are talking a lot about, um, in the media, uh, the, the price of, of like buying a Korean baby at that time or even now.

(1:09:59) speaker_1: But back then, like I, I cost $400 because my parents were too poor to pay a proper adoption fee.

(1:10:08) speaker_1: But the only thing that mattered was that they were Christian.

(1:10:13) speaker_0: So was it, was it subsidized by the church somehow or?

(1:10:18) speaker_1: No, it was subsidized by the adoption agency and then they, uh, were able to get, uh, social welfare and tax benefits.

(1:10:28) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Okay.

(1:10:32) speaker_1: So that’s often not discussed, I find.

(1:10:35) speaker_1: Um, I think a lot of people who are adopted, certainly they end up in like really affluent and wealthy families, but there’s a large number of us who went to very, very poor families, who had actually no business, you know, raising “orphans” from, you know, orphans I say with, with quotation marks, um, from, from overseas.

(1:10:59) speaker_1:

(1:10:59) speaker_0: Yeah. And I think that, um, you know, maybe the costs of raising children were different, you know, also, um, then.

(1:11:09) speaker_0: But yeah, they’re more, you know, older adoptees, I think it’s more common to hear that people were adopted into, you know, uh, lower to middle class families and not necessarily affluent-

(1:11:26) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

(1:11:26) speaker_0: … families that pushed for adoptees, you know, Millennials and younger, you know, s- um-

(1:11:32) speaker_1: Right.

(1:11:33) speaker_0: …

(1:11:33) speaker_0: I think specifically like Chinese adoptees too, they oftentimes, you know, because of the, when they were being adopted and the fees and everything that, that, you know, mo- more likely the families were affluent.

(1:11:51) speaker_0:

(1:11:51) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(1:11:52) speaker_1: Well, that’s something that I think it became much more, um, part of my consciousness when I moved to Germany because almost everyone that I’ve met…

(1:12:05) speaker_1: I mean, nobody I have met came from a poor family.

(1:12:09) speaker_1: And almost everyone I’ve met came from a family of like civil servant or a professor or, you know, a lawyer, like people who are, you know, in the upper, like economic brackets, right?

(1:12:23) speaker_1:

(1:12:23) speaker_0: You mean Korean adoptees in Germany?

(1:12:24) speaker_1: Yes.

(1:12:26) speaker_0: Oh.

(1:12:26) speaker_1: And so that’s what I noticed almost immediately that I found, um, for me, really eye-opening.

(1:12:32) speaker_1: And then talking to people, especially when, you know, we, there was this whole conversation about, you know, adoption costs.

(1:12:40) speaker_1: I’ve had like some, you know, just very personal conversations with people about, um, how much did their parents pay and sometimes they’ve gotten really, um, angry about the costs.

(1:12:53) speaker_1: And then I found out that around the time that I was adopted, um, the cost to……

(1:13:00) speaker_1: to adopt from Korea was about the same, the fee was about the same amount of money that my parents made in one year.

(1:13:11) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:13:16) speaker_1: So I really think that this, like, the missionary and the, you know, the Christian missionary influence, um, it, it really affected the families w- how, you know, like, how those families were chosen or how we were placed or maybe, you know, how we were maybe, the background checks weren’t really done properly.

(1:13:36) speaker_1:

(1:13:38) speaker_0: Have you, have you made peace with the fact that, with your, um, estrangement with your parents?

(1:13:44) speaker_1: I think it’s an ongoing maybe conundrum, right?

(1:13:50) speaker_1: Or I mean, I think that when I decided to break contact with them, um, it was, it was pretty contentious with a lot of people.

(1:14:02) speaker_1: Like, I think a lot of people did not approve of that. People even, you know, that, that I’m close to here.

(1:14:13) speaker_1: But actually, I have been doing so much better since I cut contact from my adoptive family.

(1:14:25) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:14:25) speaker_0: Well, um, Marai, we’re, we’re, um, getting kind of to the hour and a half mark, so (laughs) why don’t we just, um, w- um, how can folks follow you in your latest project?

(1:14:41) speaker_0:

(1:14:41) speaker_1: Oh, so I have the social media account Run Towards My Family on Instagram and TikTok, Threads.

(1:14:51) speaker_1: And you can also follow a secondary account which is just in the Korean language (laughs) which is a, uh, an account that I, that I had to make, um, separately to try to beat the algorithm so that I would come out more on Korean language accounts which is runtowardsmyfamily_korean.

(1:15:12) speaker_1: And then of course, you know, I’m, I’m working on the website, runtowardsmyfamily.

(1:15:18) speaker_1: com, and hopefully there’ll be, you know, a lot more information that’ll be ramped up, uh, towards the marathon that’s coming up.

(1:15:28) speaker_1: So I’ll be in Korea, um, coming up very soon, at the end of the summer, to do some more, uh, PR work.

(1:15:35) speaker_0: Oh, okay. So you’re really gonna make a big sort of campaign in Korea.

(1:15:40) speaker_1: Yeah, and you know, uh, maybe if I could touch on one part of the component that I think really changed the way that I’ve been thinking about search.

(1:15:52) speaker_1: So I wanted to do something as well for other people, and I saw this, um, animation by Eunha Lovell, who, you know, made this, like, draw-ed, drawing animation of like a, she calls it the Foster Ajumma.

(1:16:10) speaker_1: And it’s very cute, and there’s this, like, ajumma who’s, like, has all these Korean adoptees or Korean orphans, right?

(1:16:17) speaker_1: Orphaned to adoptees, like, on her back, and she’s carrying them, and it’s just a loop.

(1:16:22) speaker_1: And I thought about that, and I was like, “I want to be the Foster Ajumma.

(1:16:26) speaker_1: ” (laughs) And so part of the project now is also I’m running for other people who are searching because our, our search stories are completely linked up with each other because of the system of how we were sent away.

(1:16:40) speaker_1: And so I’m making bibs for all the people who submitted their information to me, uh, with their case numbers, and I’m going to bundle that on my back when I do the actual marathon, and so basically, like, symbolically, like, carry them through the Seoul Marathon to the finish line.

(1:17:01) speaker_1:

(1:17:01) speaker_0: You’re gonna wear, like, a b- a pack on your, on your back with…

(1:17:05) speaker_1: Yes. Of all the bibs, of all their case numbers.

(1:17:08) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(1:17:09) speaker_1: And I wanna, you know, part of it is also, like, I need to get publicity for them too, not just for me, because we, again, I’m like, our cases are so linked to each other, and it needs to be bigger than just my story.

(1:17:24) speaker_1:

(1:17:25) speaker_0: Okay, and will you be, are you fundraising for this project?

(1:17:29) speaker_1: So I did the initial fundraiser with the crowdfunding, um, that was successful.

(1:17:36) speaker_0: Oh, congratulations, that’s great.

(1:17:38) speaker_1: And then… Oh, thank you, thank you. Yeah, so that we finished, I think, already in April. That was, like, right at the beginning of the project.

(1:17:45) speaker_1: Um, the nice thing is about Crowdfunder is that the, the site is still open, so I can still accept donations. So if people are interested-

(1:17:54) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:17:54) speaker_1: …

(1:17:54) speaker_1: in continuing to support the project, that would be so great because, (laughs) you know, I’ve, I’ve basically spent all of the money already, you know, on content creation and design and, um-

(1:18:08) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:18:08) speaker_1: … you know, just the videos that I’m creating every day.

(1:18:12) speaker_0: And was it, was that a GoFundMe?

(1:18:14) speaker_1: It wasn’t a GoFundMe, it was a, it’s called Crowdfunder.

(1:18:18) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:18:19) speaker_1: It’s a C- I think it’s a Canadian entity, and I think it’s Crowdfunder without an E at the end.com or.org. Wait, what is it? It’s, yeah, it’s crowdfunder.

(1:18:33) speaker_1: com, RunTowardsMyFamily, and it’s still available.

(1:18:36) speaker_1: So, you know, if people are interested, I’m very, of course, like, pleased if people wanna continue to support the project.

(1:18:44) speaker_1: There are some, like, different rewards that people can also get when they, you know, sign on.

(1:18:50) speaker_1: And they can just follow if people are just interested in also just, like, following the project even if they can’t really donate, um, you know….

(1:19:00) speaker_1: they can check, you know, my, my, of course, the Instagram, but I’m also making some updates there as well.

(1:19:06) speaker_1: And, you know, it’s, like, $2, $2 or €2, it’s actually €2 is the minimum amount to donate.

(1:19:11) speaker_1: So I know a lot of people just donated because they wanted to be part of it, and I’m really grateful for that too.

(1:19:17) speaker_0: Yeah. Is there, is there a level for you, you actually carrying somebody o- on, on your back? (laughs) I’m just…

(1:19:26) speaker_1: Oh, maybe I should do that.

(1:19:28) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:19:28) speaker_1: I mean, maybe that’s, like, the next reward-

(1:19:30) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:19:30) speaker_1: … is, um, I can carry somebody on my back this summer, s- like, over the street. I’ll just take them across the street. (laughs)

(1:19:38) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:19:40) speaker_1: And actually those streets in Korea are really, uh, I mean, in Seoul are very wide, so that’s a pretty long walk for me. I’m pretty strong. I can try that.

(1:19:49) speaker_1:

(1:19:49) speaker_0: (laughs) Well, Mireille, this is, uh, amazing.

(1:19:53) speaker_0: Uh, thank you so much for, for speaking today and for coming on the podcast and, um, yeah, I really appreciate you.

(1:20:03) speaker_1: Yeah, thank you so much.

(1:20:03) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:20:04) speaker_1: I feel very honored that, you know, I know you asked me, like, a while ago and I, uh, it took me a really long time to be ready, so thank you so much for being patient.

(1:20:13) speaker_1:

(1:20:13) speaker_0: No, uh-

(1:20:14) speaker_1: But it’s, you know?

(1:20:14) speaker_0: Thank you for being ready. This is amazing. I feel like so many things are aligning for you right now, so…

(1:20:21) speaker_1: Thank you so much, Kayomi. And, um, you know, I’ll keep you updated on the run. I’m, I’m thinking of also doing a live, doing a live on Instagram.

(1:20:30) speaker_0: Oh, wow. That would be great, yeah.

(1:20:31) speaker_1: Yeah, if there’s a possibility I’ll let you in the, uh, you know, I’ll keep you in the know.

(1:20:35) speaker_3: (music)

(1:20:39) speaker_0: Thank you, Mirae. I am looking forward to hearing more about your experience in Running Towards My Family.

(1:20:53) speaker_0: Thank you to all our Patreon supporters who have helped keep this podcast going. Yoonki Jun is our volunteer Korean translator. I’m Kaomi Lee.

(1:21:05) speaker_0: We are nearing the end of the podcast with just two more episodes left.

(1:21:09) speaker_0: I’m always a little surprised when some of you say you’ve only just discovered this pioneering podcast, which started in 2016 at a time where there weren’t many other Korean-adoptive podcasts out there.

(1:21:22) speaker_0: I’m glad you found us, and you can find the entire archive of stories at adaptedpodcast.com. See you next time.

(1:21:30) speaker_3: (music)

Korean mixed-race adoptee Sarah Harris, 54, of Los Angeles, shares her story of visiting Korea and finding the place where she felt truly rooted.

Audio available July 5, 2024.

(0:00:05) speaker_0: Welcome to Adopted podcast. Season 7, episode 22 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:17) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.

(0:00:25) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families and society that only wants a feel-good story.

(0:00:36) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.

(0:00:41) speaker_1: I think that was the first time that many of us actually, or at least me personally, really felt anchored to a space on this globe.

(0:00:50) speaker_0: This next interview is with a Korean mixed-race adoptee.

(0:00:53) speaker_0: Being the product of an American military contractor and a Korean woman has brought up complex feelings for this next interviewee.

(0:01:02) speaker_0: Sarah Harris reflects on beliefs around belonging and identity and the imbalance of power in military camp towns. Now, here’s Sarah.

(0:01:19) speaker_1: My name is Sarah Harris. My Korean name, I believe is Kwon Doyoung. I am 54 years old, and I live in Los Angeles.

(0:01:31) speaker_0: Okay. So Sarah, what are your passions? Tell us a little bit about you.

(0:01:35) speaker_1: My passions are truly connecting with other people and also trying to figure out individually what their passions are, and then trying to help them start today on that journey to figure out how they can do this in their lives.

(0:01:51) speaker_1: I mean, some people have big goals, but I try to break it down into bite-sized steps for them so that they can start right away.

(0:01:57) speaker_0: Okay. So how long have you been doing this work, or how do you go about it? It sounds like you connect people?

(0:02:04) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, this is something that I’ve kind of found through the years that I wouldn’t call it an innate skill perhaps, but it’s just, it is, it’s a passion.

(0:02:15) speaker_1: I think it started probably when I used to work for a nonprofit and I was recruiting people for long-distance running events.

(0:02:23) speaker_1: You know, obviously, they show up to talk to me because they want to run this event or because they want to fundraise, but oftentimes, there was a deeper reason below that reason.

(0:02:32) speaker_1: And so, I would always try to figure out what that was so that I could make sure I could cater to that while they were on the team, and that way, it would be a better experience for them as well.

(0:02:42) speaker_1: So, I think that’s when I first realized that I had a little bit of a skill in that area and just a passion for it, and so then I’ve kind of carried it over.

(0:02:51) speaker_1: For a while, I had a group here in my hometown where I was meeting with a group of women and they all came to the table, they’re all working on different projects, or some hadn’t even started, and we would just get together and try to be each other’s cheerleaders, truly.

(0:03:06) speaker_1: Try to be that positive, creative space where people aren’t going, “Oh, I don’t know. That seems risky,” or whatever, you know?

(0:03:13) speaker_1: I mean, let’s break it down and figure out ways that you can start doing it right away.

(0:03:18) speaker_0: And you’re a Korean adoptee?

(0:03:21) speaker_1: I am a Korean adoptee, yes.

(0:03:23) speaker_0: How do you identify that experience?

(0:03:26) speaker_1: I think… I don’t know. It’s been (sighs)… it’s a situation that keeps unraveling, I feel like.

(0:03:32) speaker_1: And I don’t mean that necessarily in a negative way, but I think when I was younger, it was just this, I’m kind of envisioning a ball of yarn where it was all tightly wound together in a nice shape and I knew I was adopted, I’ve always known I was adopted, but I just didn’t really know exactly what that meant.

(0:03:51) speaker_1: So, I would go tell people when I met them or, or they would figure it out (laughs) and I would say, “Yes, I’m adopted from Korea,” but then it would just kind of fall on the floor.

(0:04:01) speaker_1: I didn’t exactly know what to do with it. I’m very late to trying to figure this out about myself.

(0:04:07) speaker_1: I didn’t start really diving into what it meant to be adopted until I was about 47, and I think ever since then, it feels like a constantly evolving thing, but I feel like it was a good time for me because I’m old enough to take the information that I get or the surprises that I find in stride because I’m a little bit older, I guess.

(0:04:28) speaker_1:

(0:04:28) speaker_0: You know, sometimes it’s, it’s just a matter of having the time, right? Or being in the right head space.

(0:04:35) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:04:37) speaker_0: So, you know, people can get involved with their careers or raising their kids or things that are more immediate, and then the adoption stuff can hit later.

(0:04:46) speaker_0:

(0:04:46) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:04:46) speaker_1: Yeah, I think there were a few times where I had been curious just to go visit Korea, not even to dive into anything, but I was like, you know, “I don’t know the language, it’s so far away.

(0:04:57) speaker_1: ” And like you said, I had small children, it just didn’t seem affordable at the time. So yeah, I had to put that off.

(0:05:04) speaker_0: And did you make it back to Korea?

(0:05:07) speaker_1: I did. I finally made it back in 2018 and I was really pleased with the group that I chose.

(0:05:14) speaker_1: I went with the Me in Korea Hapa Mosaic tour, and it was the perfect balance of a very personal experience as far as my adoption story goes, but also a little bit of cultural stuff mixed in.

(0:05:27) speaker_1: And I think they timed it well too because we definitely had some emotional days, but we also had a lot of fun days too.

(0:05:33) speaker_0: What was kind of your, I think, when you got there, is there a particular instance or memory that really sits with you?

(0:05:43) speaker_1: Sure.

(0:05:44) speaker_1: Yeah, honestly it was a lot of the stuff even just leading up to it, because they would, you know, they obviously ask for our adoption files, and they have a whole team of researchers on the back end trying to see how far they can go, possibly find any new information or more accurate information.

(0:06:02) speaker_1: Um, also because there’s a span of time between when I was turned in to an orphanage and then when I wound up at the other orphanage, which wound up sending me for adoption.

(0:06:12) speaker_1: So you know, there’s some blank areas in there that they tried to fill in, and I think that was what kind of blew me away leading up to the trip, is they’d contact me and say, “We found more information.

(0:06:23) speaker_1: It turns out that you were not just found in the street by a policeman and turned in to an orphanage,” like every other adoptee thinks they were.

(0:06:31) speaker_1: It turns out that a woman had turned me in to the orphanage, and so that was completely new information.

(0:06:37) speaker_1: During that time also, we had made the efforts to try to find my biological father, who at the time I had a feeling was an American GI because I am mixed race.

(0:06:47) speaker_1: And so we were hoping to find him to perhaps have more information on where my birth mother could be, and we did find him and that blew me away.

(0:06:57) speaker_1: Also the speed at which they figured out who he was based on a second cousin match that I had, that blew me away.

(0:07:03) speaker_1: It was interesting to me too, and I’m not still sure exactly why this happened, I still want to look into it, but I remember when they were asking me if I wanted to get a hanbok while I was there.

(0:07:16) speaker_1: I hope I’m saying that well. And at first I was like, “Well, I don’t know. Why would I need that?

(0:07:21) speaker_1: ” Because, I don’t know, I think just growing up, I didn’t feel Korean.

(0:07:26) speaker_1: But then when I got there and I got the hanbok, it was just the most beautiful thing and I absolutely love it now and I’m so glad that I did.

(0:07:35) speaker_1: And it was weird because it did totally make me emotional.

(0:07:37) speaker_1: When they first asked me I was like, “I don’t know why I would want this,” and I think that was just like a turning point in all of a sudden tapping into the Korean side of me.

(0:07:46) speaker_1:

(0:07:46) speaker_0: This is something I’ve wondered. So you’re, you’re mixed race, white and Korean?

(0:07:53) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:07:55) speaker_0: Um, did you feel growing up and even into your adulthood that you had less of a connection to Korea or a claim to identity?

(0:08:06) speaker_0: Or I mean claim to the, you know-

(0:08:09) speaker_1: Oh, yeah.

(0:08:09) speaker_0: … you’re part of the Korean diaspora?

(0:08:12) speaker_1: Yeah (laughs). Totally, yeah. I mean, truly, first of all, growing up when I was young, people didn’t even know where Korea was.

(0:08:18) speaker_1: People just called me Chinese because they knew I didn’t look white and they didn’t know what kind of Asian I was, and since I was kind of a blend anyway.

(0:08:27) speaker_1: So yeah, nobody knew where Korea was until one day I think I realized that, hey, all my toys are made in Korea, so at least I could claim a place even though I had no visual (laughs) for it.

(0:08:38) speaker_1: But then, yeah, I, I did not feel Korean at all. I was raised in a house that was primarily a Hungarian household, which I love.

(0:08:48) speaker_1: I mean, I loved the food, I loved my family, and it was a very comfortable place to land. And I loved the community that they had.

(0:08:57) speaker_1: But yeah, I did not feel Korean at all, and I remember the first… Even growing up, I didn’t have that many people in school who were Asian.

(0:09:06) speaker_1: (laughs) I think the first time I found another mixed race Asian, probably my first Asian at all, was in third grade and then I was only in that school for a year, but I mean, obviously, we became like fast friends.

(0:09:18) speaker_1: And even though I would go over to her house and I’d be like, “Well, this is a different situation than what I have at my house,” but part of me felt very comfortable instantly in their house.

(0:09:26) speaker_1: And then I kind of grew up through the years and every now and then there would be an Asian person in my class, but I could tell pretty quickly that I did not really fit in with them either.

(0:09:37) speaker_1: So I think my, my brain just kind of defaulted to Hungarian/white that I was brought up in. So yeah.

(0:09:45) speaker_1: I remember even going to college and I thought, “Okay, I’m in college now. I’m gonna try to embrace my Asian side.

(0:09:53) speaker_1: ” And I went to an Asian student mixer and I walked up the stairs and walked in and I saw everybody and I was like, “Oh, no, I don’t fit in (laughs) here at all.

(0:10:02) speaker_1: ” And I just turned around and left. I did not even walk through the door.

(0:10:05) speaker_0: Mm. Based on… Did you feel like just based on how you looked or-

(0:10:10) speaker_1: I think so.

(0:10:11) speaker_0: … just how you felt inside?

(0:10:12) speaker_1: Yeah, I think the way I felt, the way I looked, and I could just, I don’t know, I felt like the conversations that I could hear.

(0:10:20) speaker_1: I’m sure it was part of just college insecurities to begin with, but it was funny because that same feeling came up the first time I went to a Korean adoptee mixer up in San Francisco.

(0:10:31) speaker_1: It was 2017 (clears throat) and it was the AKA/IKAA (laughs) mixer in San Francisco, and I walked in the door and it was the same situation where I was greeted with a visual of all these Asian people in one room and for a split second I was like, “Oh my gosh, this was a mistake.

(0:10:49) speaker_1: ” But then I had to tell myself, “No, all of these people are just like me where the outside doesn’t necessarily match with the inside.

(0:10:58) speaker_1: ” And so I just told myself I would walk around the room one time at least and find a comfortable place to sit down and fortunately I did.

(0:11:07) speaker_1: I found a table of some really warm people and had a great weekend.

(0:11:11) speaker_1: And honestly, that’s the beginning of me going and starting my journey to figure out myself.

(0:11:18) speaker_0: And did you s- often just pass for white do you think?

(0:11:23) speaker_1: It’s funny, um, (sighs) maybe, because I mean we did have some…

(0:11:27) speaker_1: I’m thinking in particular of my elementary school where there really wasn’t diversity at all, but there were like different shades of white if you want to call it that.

(0:11:38) speaker_1: Like there were people from all different parts.

(0:11:40) speaker_1: Like I had some friends that were Italian that were definitely darker and so I was like, “Well, maybe I’m part Italian,” ’cause I, I didn’t know what the other half (laughs) of my, myself was.

(0:11:48) speaker_1:

(0:11:48) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:11:49) speaker_1: Um, so that was kind of a lifelong game until very recently where I’d just try to guess what my other half was.

(0:11:55) speaker_1: But yeah, I guess I did pass as white back then especially one year I had pneumonia so I was really pale, you couldn’t tell that I had a little bit darker skin and people just thought I was-…

(0:12:06) speaker_1: Caucasian, yes. And it’s funny too because I do have two sisters. One is full Korean, she’s an adoptee as well. I have one sister that is completely Caucasian.

(0:12:16) speaker_1: And we were so alike behaviorally growing up that when her friends would get together with us, if they hadn’t met me before, they just automatically, t- they were like, “Yes, you guys are absolutely sisters,” and they didn’t realize that I was adopted.

(0:12:31) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:12:32) speaker_0: Which, with your, with your full youngster-

(0:12:35) speaker_1: With the younger sister, yes, yes.

(0:12:36) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:12:36) speaker_1: I was like, “That’s really funny but okay.” (laughs)

(0:12:39) speaker_0: Okay, so in your family makeup, people might assume that your, only your one sister was adopted?

(0:12:45) speaker_1: Right.

(0:12:46) speaker_0: Okay, okay.

(0:12:47) speaker_0: That must’ve been like, hmm, yeah, like, that feeling of belonging, which is something that adoptees talk about all the time is where do they belong?

(0:12:59) speaker_1: Right.

(0:13:00) speaker_0: And, um, I mean everybody’s experiences is different, but I wonder if that belonging piece…

(0:13:06) speaker_0: I mean, it just must’ve been, I, I’m not gonna say more or less complicated as everyone’s, but just it’s its own thing, right? Just…

(0:13:15) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean I definitely, (sighs) between being adopted and then we actually, I changed schools a lot until I got to high school.

(0:13:25) speaker_1: And between those two things, I hated, like it was the worst first day every year (laughs) ’cause I just, I think moving around, um, I was shy to begin with, and then having to show up and constantly explain who I was and, and when I didn’t even understand a lot of it myself, it just made it a difficult thing.

(0:13:44) speaker_1: So yeah, I didn’t belong really anywhere.

(0:13:47) speaker_1: I would have like a close friend or two and just kinda hold onto them for the year and then see if I’d be there again the next year or not.

(0:13:56) speaker_1: But then when I got to high school, I was able to stay there longer, so I definitely tried to join groups and teams and clubs and that kinda thing so I could find a place to belong and also just tried to expand my group of people that I would have things in common.

(0:14:13) speaker_1:

(0:14:13) speaker_0: And where did you grow up, Sarah?

(0:14:15) speaker_1: I grew up in San Diego for the most part. I mean, I did grow up in Baltimore until I was eight years old, but then yes, we moved to San Diego.

(0:14:23) speaker_1: We lived in, I guess it’s directly above the airport, in Presidio Park first, and then we moved to North County San Diego, and they’re very different to be honest ’cause one felt more almost city adjacent and the other one was out in the boonies, (laughs) but both were really great experiences overall.

(0:14:41) speaker_1:

(0:14:41) speaker_0: And so, like, being in Southern California and maybe you felt racially ambiguous sometimes or you could, I don’t know, some people call shape-shifting, but you could kind of probably fit in with a lot of different groups that you could select every time you’d move schools.

(0:14:59) speaker_0: Did you feel… I mean, in one sense, there probably were a lot of mixed race folks.

(0:15:06) speaker_1: To be honest, not in the first place in San Diego where I lived.

(0:15:11) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:15:11) speaker_1: There were not, but, um, but yeah, when I moved to Poway, there were definitely more Asian families, and so even though I didn’t totally feel like I felt in with them, at least I felt like, okay, there’s a wider variety of people here.

(0:15:24) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:15:24) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:25) speaker_1: But yeah, I mean, that’s one thing I love actually is that now in my kids’ generation, most of their friends are mixed race something, and it’s not all Asian, but I mean, they grew up with a group of people where everybody was accepted no matter what they look like.

(0:15:40) speaker_1:

(0:15:40) speaker_0: And being in LA now, right? Uh, t-

(0:15:43) speaker_1: Right, yeah, that makes a difference.

(0:15:44) speaker_0: … that’s right at home?

(0:15:45) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean that’s been a thing that’s been really helpful for me.

(0:15:48) speaker_1: I mean, San Diego does offer a lot of culture, but, you know, before I drove, I didn’t have as much access to it.

(0:15:54) speaker_1: And plus, I think at that age, I didn’t appreciate it as much. I was more focused on fitting in than trying to figure out what made me unique.

(0:16:02) speaker_1: But yeah, up here in Los Angeles, there’s just so many more opportunities.

(0:16:06) speaker_1: There’s Koreatown, one of the largest ones that I think exists, but so many cultures. I mean, that’s one thing I love of…

(0:16:12) speaker_1: My friends and I have a dining club where we eat our way around the world without leaving Los Angeles.

(0:16:18) speaker_0: Oh, that’s great. So you pick different countries or different cuisines?

(0:16:21) speaker_1: Exactly, exactly. It’s been amazing.

(0:16:23) speaker_0: What’s the last cuisine you ate in, in your dining club?

(0:16:27) speaker_1: I believe it wa- it was either Indonesian or Malaysian, I don’t remember, but it was a different variation of Asian food than I’d had before, and it was amazing.

(0:16:35) speaker_1:

(0:16:35) speaker_0: And what’s the best Korean place you think in LA?

(0:16:38) speaker_1: (laughs) That’s tough. I don’t know if I’m a great judge of that. Chosun Galbi, I believe is a good one, uh, we used to go to that one actually.

(0:16:46) speaker_1: I think it might be one of my favorites too because it was one that the Los Angeles Adoptee Club would go to for dinner, so it’s, you know, it’s a comfortable place for that reason as well.

(0:16:56) speaker_1: Um, I have to think. There’s another one that I’m totally seeing in my head that I can’t remember what the name is and it’s on the Miracle Mile.

(0:17:03) speaker_1: I believe it starts with a G. I’ll think of it by (laughs) midnight tonight. (laughs)

(0:17:08) speaker_0: And so let’s go back to the Hapa Tour. So you, um, you sign up for this tour, and then suddenly you’re flung with maybe about 20 or so-

(0:17:17) speaker_1: Yeah, like three. Mm-hmm.

(0:17:18) speaker_0: … other, other mixed race Koreans. How did that feel?

(0:17:21) speaker_1: It felt amazing.

(0:17:22) speaker_1: I think at first my brain was totally on trying to figure out who everybody was and what their mixes were (laughs) and that kinda thing, and I mean, everybody was really open as far as explaining if they knew what their mixes were, but yeah, it was an interesting situation because they actually have two different tours.

(0:17:41) speaker_1: They have the Mosaic Tour and the Hapa Mosaic Tour, and they purposefully make ours a little bit different because the history of the mixed race Koreans is different than the full race Koreans.

(0:17:51) speaker_1: And so, for example, I believe ours, instead of going and spending time in the orphanage, we actually get to spend a day in the camp towns that are outside of the US military bases in Korea, and these are kind of like little shanty Las Vegas towns that they would build for the US soldiers who don’t really speak much of the language to go out and have entertainment.

(0:18:13) speaker_1: So I mean, it was…It was dinner clubs, restaurants. There were also laundry, though, and markets and all that kind of stuff.

(0:18:20) speaker_1: But, you know, I mean, most of us mixed race come from that situation where the US military guys, or other countries, I guess, were then intermingling with (laughs) the Korean women.

(0:18:33) speaker_1: So we got the opportunity to actually walk through…

(0:18:36) speaker_1: It’s a camptown now that was turned into an art district, but then we also walked through an actual military base.

(0:18:42) speaker_1: So we had that feeling of walking next to those huge walls and the barbed wire on top, and I think that was the first time that many of us actually, or at least me personally, really felt anchored to a space on this globe.

(0:18:56) speaker_1: Like, okay, this is kind of where I come from. So, that was fascinating.

(0:19:02) speaker_0: Yeah, can you talk more about that? Did you relate to others on the tour?

(0:19:07) speaker_0: Were more people also, kind of, never maybe felt permission to claim Korean as part of their background?

(0:19:14) speaker_1: I think so. And it, it definitely depends on how Korean people looked. One of our mentors on the trip, I remember looking at her and she looked very similar.

(0:19:26) speaker_1: Like, she could have been one of the Brady kids, except she had slightly darker hair.

(0:19:30) speaker_1: But then she spoke perfectly fluent Korean, and I was like, “How is this possible?” Like, “Did she learn?

(0:19:35) speaker_1: ” And no, she had actually been adopted later in life from Korea, but she did not look Korean at all.

(0:19:41) speaker_1: But then there are others that looked very Korean, or there are some that don’t look Korean but they look more African American, and so they were able to fit into that community.

(0:19:50) speaker_1: So I think it just depended on the blend and also the family that they’re raised, and that makes a big difference as well.

(0:19:56) speaker_0: And were you on the younger side of the Hapa tour? Were you on-

(0:20:01) speaker_1: Oh, in the group.

(0:20:02) speaker_0: Were you one of the younger…

(0:20:03) speaker_1: I was probably, (sighs) I was probably right in the middle. I think I was probably right in the middle.

(0:20:09) speaker_0: Okay, okay.

(0:20:09) speaker_1: I think nowadays, I probably lean towards the older side of things. But yeah, on the tour it was definitely, I was more in the middle.

(0:20:17) speaker_0: And did you feel that growing up and into, you know, when I say growing up, but also, like, through your adulthood, did you feel stigmatized by being a product of the camptowns?

(0:20:29) speaker_0:

(0:20:29) speaker_1: I think, (sighs) because at the time I didn’t understand the full picture of what it was.

(0:20:37) speaker_1: But yeah, I think two definite examples where, where the stigma came and hit me when I didn’t even realize…

(0:20:43) speaker_1: Actually, I’ll just give you the one that happened at work one day.

(0:20:48) speaker_1: So, um, this is probably when I was in my, oh gosh, early 30s, and I found a coworker in the bathroom.

(0:20:56) speaker_1: She’s crying and her husband had decided to recently re-enlist, and he was being sent to Korea. And I go, “Oh, I’m Korean. Yeah, I’m mixed Korean.

(0:21:05) speaker_1: I’m from there.” And she immediately (laughs) started bawling even louder, and I was like, “What is this about?” She’s like…

(0:21:12) speaker_1: I think she was concerned that he would just go over there, because it has the reputation of just being, like, this town filled with debauchery when they’re there.

(0:21:22) speaker_1: And she was, just knew in her heart that he was gonna go over there and immediately produce a child that looked like me. And I was like, “Okay.

(0:21:31) speaker_1: ” (laughs) Like, I didn’t know exactly where that came from, but I didn’t have-

(0:21:34) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:35) speaker_1: … the tools to then try to counter it either. So I just kind of absorbed it. But, yeah.

(0:21:40) speaker_1: And I mean, there have been other times where people had said to me, like, “Oh, well aren’t you glad you were adopted because you were saved from being a prostitute?

(0:21:47) speaker_1: ” And I’m like, “I’m not sure if that was my original life plan, but if that’s what you think that okay.” But it’s just, yeah, I-

(0:21:56) speaker_0: Like somehow you, like you were the product of some seedy or-

(0:21:59) speaker_1: Exactly.

(0:22:00) speaker_0: … um, illegal or… (laughs)

(0:22:03) speaker_1: Yeah, everyone just assumes that the only thing that’s over there are prostitutes.

(0:22:08) speaker_1: And, I mean, that’s kind of part of my later life goal now, now that I’ve been there and seen what it was and met some of the women that worked there, but also learning the rest of the culture.

(0:22:20) speaker_1: I mean, it was an economic center also, in a time where Korea was very much trying to rebuild.

(0:22:26) speaker_1: So the people that worked there, that had their businesses in the camptowns, actually did pretty well compared to the ones that might be farther out in the country or whatever.

(0:22:35) speaker_1: So that’s my goal now, is to try to clarify what they really were.

(0:22:39) speaker_1: Because I think also, I mean, the fact that that reputation came over here and followed a lot of the women who were in legitimate relationships and came over here with their husbands and then were totally ostracized from communities here, it was all because of that as well.

(0:22:55) speaker_1: And I feel like they are owed their own piece of history and to be able to claim it for themselves, and not just shameful history though.

(0:23:03) speaker_1: Like, everybody’s got stories. I think every family, not just Korean ones, of how they came here from other countries, and they weren’t all pretty.

(0:23:11) speaker_1: But I think that, you know, other people are allowed to own their history, and I don’t think the camptown women have been able to yet.

(0:23:18) speaker_0: And that, and also, you know, sex work can be legitimate work.

(0:23:22) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, (sighs) I think back then, and I, I’m kind of guessing, summarizing based on some things that I’ve read.

(0:23:30) speaker_1: I mean, there are definitely experts on this topic better than I am.

(0:23:34) speaker_1: But I feel like at the time, again, while the country was rebuilding and trying to recover after the war, that, you know, a lot of the men, they were either gone or injured or whatever, and so suddenly there were other people in the family that had to take responsibility to try to keep the family going.

(0:23:52) speaker_1: And I know that people had to pay to go to school, and I mean, just things like that. So who’s gonna come up with that money?

(0:23:59) speaker_1: And so I think, you know, women had to go figure out ways to do this.

(0:24:04) speaker_1: And I don’t think everybody’s entry into that profession was maybe a positive and completely their own decision.

(0:24:11) speaker_1: But I think at the same time, it was a legitimate thing that people had to do to keep going.

(0:24:17) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.Exactly.

(0:24:18) speaker_0: And, um, these camp towns and, you know, women, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were recruited and told that, to work in these industries that serviced American GIs, that they were doing a national service or national good for-

(0:24:33) speaker_1: Yes, I’ve read that as well. Yes, that they’re like ambassadors, goodwill ambassadors.

(0:24:37) speaker_0: Right.

(0:24:38) speaker_0: So, like, they’re part of this nationwide, you know, this national effort of security and globalization and, and with Americans, you know, uh, binational treaties, (laughs) you know?

(0:24:49) speaker_0: Or bi- or I, I don’t know if it was a treaty, but binational agreements, bilateral agreements.

(0:24:54) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:24:55) speaker_1: Yeah, I’m, I’m actually loving the time that we’re in right now, and I feel like my unraveling, if you wanna call it, (laughs) has been timed really well with some researchers who are really looking into the history and kind of unraveling that kind of stuff.

(0:25:09) speaker_1: Like, I’m sure you heard Yuri Dulin at the conference in Chicago-

(0:25:14) speaker_0: Yes, fantastic.

(0:25:15) speaker_1: … read his book, yeah, about the first AmerAsians. And, um, it was just such an eye-opening book for me, (laughs) all the different…

(0:25:22) speaker_1: And I haven’t even finished the whole thing, but even just from the very first few pages, I’m like, “Wow, this is a completely different way to look at it.

(0:25:29) speaker_1: ” And, and I’m so grateful to be in a time where, number one, I’m open to learning that information and that people are caring enough to look for it to really rewrite history.

(0:25:40) speaker_1:

(0:25:40) speaker_0: What are the camp towns like today?

(0:25:43) speaker_1: Well, I mean, I, I think that some still might exist, although on a much smaller level.

(0:25:48) speaker_1: The one that we had gone to, and I wish I knew the name off the top of my head, but they had turned it into an artist colony, which I thought was really beautiful.

(0:25:57) speaker_1: But it was so cool because they did have one, kind of like a resale or consignment shop right outside the gates, and it was all, like, just old military memorabilia and stuff, and I was like, “Oh, I wish I would have had time to walk through that store and just see things from, you know, Korean and American cultures in that store.

(0:26:15) speaker_1: ” But yeah, it was, it was turned into a very peaceful place, and that was nice.

(0:26:20) speaker_0: Was that trip transformative for you?

(0:26:24) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:26:25) speaker_1: Yeah, I think I mentioned in that one point where we were walking through the camp towns, and I think I finally felt my place, or I guess my origin point.

(0:26:36) speaker_1: And I, I was just kind of in the back of the crowd watching them walk through this town, and I was like, “This is like a little piece of walking history.

(0:26:42) speaker_1: ” Because, I mean, also the adoption, I don’t wanna call it industry, but movement or whatever (laughs) we wanna call it, it’s kind of a contained thing.

(0:26:51) speaker_1: Like, it started in the mid ’50s.

(0:26:54) speaker_1: I mean, I’m sure it, it was in existence maybe before, but I, I think as an industry, it really popped up with the Holts in the ’50s, and then it’s kind of slowed down since the ’80s after the Olympics.

(0:27:06) speaker_1: And so it’s kind of like we’re this contained little piece of history, and here we are walking through the streets, almost reclaiming them in a way.

(0:27:14) speaker_1: And to me, that was really powerful. The trip was also very powerful, though, because I did learn a little bit of new information.

(0:27:21) speaker_1: So when we went to the orphanage, I got to have a day where they gave me a ticket and popped me onto a bullet train with two other gals that were also from Busan, and so we rode the train down there.

(0:27:33) speaker_1: We got to go to my orphanage where I was turned in and see the paperwork from the day I was turned in.

(0:27:38) speaker_1: Because I had also had a question if I was turned in with anybody else, which it doesn’t appear that I was.

(0:27:43) speaker_1: But they did find on there, there was the name of the person that turned me in.

(0:27:48) speaker_1: There was an address that they put on the paperwork, which, you know, take me with a grain of salt every information I find (laughs) because it might not have been a real address.

(0:27:56) speaker_1: But what happened was, so two of us were traveling together.

(0:28:00) speaker_1: We went to both of our orphanages, and then the third gal, she went off ’cause she actually was in reunion with her family, so she was having a different day.

(0:28:08) speaker_1: But before we were then all going to meet up again and ride the train back to where the rest of the group was, um, we were driving down a road, and it was just a busy, I guess, freeway for them, and the driver, who was our translator, pulled up off the road, and I was like, “Oh, where are we going?

(0:28:23) speaker_1: ” And he’s like, “Well, I wanted to try to find that address that was in your file.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s really amazing.

(0:28:29) speaker_1: ” Because honestly, like, as soon as he said that, I had just been having a moment where I was like, “I have an address, and now I’m leaving Korea, and I don’t know (laughs) what to do.

(0:28:37) speaker_1: ” It’s almost like he read my mind.

(0:28:39) speaker_1: So he pulled up on this street, and the first few buildings were there, and then all of a sudden, we keep going up this road, and the whole neighborhood had been flattened.

(0:28:49) speaker_1: So they’re basically… It looked like a bomb had gone off, but that’s just their construction zone. Like, they don’t put fences around it.

(0:28:57) speaker_1: (laughs) So we pull up, and all of a sudden, like, everything is flattened, and I guess they’re flattening everything in that area to put high-rises in.

(0:29:05) speaker_1: But I was glad to at least see the street with the mix of the old buildings and then the demolition.

(0:29:11) speaker_1: So at least, I don’t know, in a way, I could kind of just see that address, even though I don’t exactly know which door would have been applicable to my history, if any.

(0:29:21) speaker_1: But because, if I would have gone back when the high-rises were there, I would have been like, “No, this doesn’t fit my narrative because these are way too new.

(0:29:28) speaker_1: ” (laughs) So I would have had to dig through blacktop to get to the history underneath, which would have been impossible.

(0:29:34) speaker_1: So it was really cool that he did that.

(0:29:36) speaker_0: Yeah, it’s kind of, um… It can be unsettling, right? You go back and everything’s changed, or your orphanage is closed, or you know-

(0:29:45) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:29:45) speaker_0: … that your history is erased.

(0:29:47) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, definitely. It was ironic though.

(0:29:50) speaker_1: Okay, the person I was with, we went to her orphanage, and she was a little bit older than me, and she even had a piece of paper that proved that she was in the orphanage, but they had no history on her.

(0:30:02) speaker_1: So they said, “Well, here’s some photo albums from those days. You can look through and see if you can find yourself in them.

(0:30:08) speaker_1: ” And so we spent some time doing that.

(0:30:10) speaker_1: That was not her first trip to Korea, but she was hoping that maybe something would come of it, just since she had the extra help with research.

(0:30:19) speaker_1: But we left there that day just going, “Well, we did as much as we could, but there’s nothing else that she could do.

(0:30:26) speaker_1: ” Ironically, later, she did have some big developments in her case many years later. And I don’t want to share her story (laughs).

(0:30:32) speaker_1: I’ll let her share it eventually, but it did wind up in reunion. I’ll just say that.

(0:30:37) speaker_0: I’m curious, Sara, what the consensus was in your… On that Hapa Mosaic tour. Through DNA, had most found at least their father’s side?

(0:30:47) speaker_1: No, you know, I think there was a wide variety.

(0:30:50) speaker_1: There were people who had found family before and already been in reunion, and people who had no idea, who were really just starting.

(0:30:57) speaker_1: I think, you know, obviously, the team tried to get them as much information as they could before the trip.

(0:31:02) speaker_1: But yeah, no, I mean, there was a very wide variety. Some people had just found out.

(0:31:06) speaker_1: I mean, some people were adults older than me, who had just found out they were adopted, period. It was a really wide group.

(0:31:15) speaker_0: So, would it be safe to say that some people were going through a state of shock being there?

(0:31:21) speaker_1: I think we all were (laughs).

(0:31:24) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:31:24) speaker_1: I think…

(0:31:24) speaker_1: And that was one great thing about the tour, is even though the first time we saw on the itinerary that we were going to have group sessions or whatever, we were like, “Oh, my gosh, what’s that gonna be about?

(0:31:33) speaker_1: ” But honestly, it was really helpful to have that space in between the different things that we did, to just be there for each other, to be able to share what emotions they were experiencing, if people wanted to.

(0:31:47) speaker_1: And then, of course, just to be there for each other as well.

(0:31:50) speaker_1: It was interesting though, because one gentleman said, and it’s very true, “Being an adoptee is like being those kids in Narnia.

(0:31:57) speaker_1: We were sent from Korea, we went through a door to a country where we grew up, and then as soon as we come back through the wardrobe to Korea, we’re suddenly the same age as when we left.

(0:32:08) speaker_1: ” And it was fascinating actually, that that did play out fairly accurately (laughs).

(0:32:13) speaker_1: And like, for me, I mean, I left before I could speak or anything, but that was also how I existed on the tour.

(0:32:19) speaker_1: A lot of times, I was just sitting and observing and watching and listening, and not really speaking much, because that’s just… I don’t know.

(0:32:27) speaker_1: That was me getting back in the flow with Korea, I guess.

(0:32:30) speaker_0: I mean, it’s almost like you’re on this sensory tour, right? And maybe childlike. You’re back tasting, smelling, seeing, hearing.

(0:32:38) speaker_1: I love that you picked up on that, yes (laughs).

(0:32:42) speaker_0: And… Yeah, and transported back to, you know, age three, four, five, eight, whatever age-

(0:32:48) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:32:48) speaker_0: … you went through that door in Narnia that you said. That’s a very great analogy.

(0:32:52) speaker_1: Yeah, I was only eight months old. But it’s true.

(0:32:55) speaker_1: Like, I kind of went into the trip wondering if suddenly I would eat something and all these memories would flood back, or I would hear something or smell something or…

(0:33:04) speaker_1: So, it was a very sensory experience, just trying to take it all in and seeing how m- my body would respond to it.

(0:33:10) speaker_1: I tried to go into the trip overall without any expectations, just showing up, being present every day and, and just seeing what would happen, and I didn’t have any of those amazing aha moments.

(0:33:22) speaker_1: But it was still a great experience to be able to, yes, just kind of dive in and feel…

(0:33:27) speaker_1: I think the other thing that was a big issue, for me anyway, was the concern that the Koreans may not accept us because we are mixed race.

(0:33:36) speaker_1: But I didn’t feel any of that. Wherever we went, we were always feeling welcome.

(0:33:40) speaker_1: Even one day where I think a bunch of people were getting eyeglasses, and so I was just kind of wandering the market outside, and I think it was the end of the trip, so by that time, I had gotten a little more confident in flinging around, “Annyeonghaseyo,” and (laughs) I totally just mutilated it there.

(0:33:56) speaker_1: But I felt more confident in, like, throwing out a Korean word that I knew and waiting for a response, and nobody would…

(0:34:01) speaker_1: Even in the market, would look at me and be like, “Oh, no, we’re not talking to you.” You know? Like, it, it was a very welcome place.

(0:34:07) speaker_0: Do you think people… I mean, it’s hard to know what people thought. Do, do you think the local-

(0:34:12) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:34:13) speaker_0: … Koreans understood-

(0:34:14) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:34:14) speaker_0: … that you were Korean or you were coming back, or you’re an adoptee?

(0:34:17) speaker_1: Well, I mean, I don’t think they knew all of that, unless we explained it.

(0:34:22) speaker_0: Unless it was explained, right.

(0:34:23) speaker_1: I mean, there were definitely some set up events where people knew that we were a group of adoptees hoping to come back and embrace our culture, and so, you know, they treated us more like that.

(0:34:32) speaker_1: But even on the street, I just wasn’t sure if I would see, like, if I said hello to them, would they smile or would there be something behind that smile that I’d be able to detect where they’d be like, “Oh.

(0:34:42) speaker_1: ” You know? (laughs)

(0:34:43) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:34:43) speaker_1: But I didn’t feel that at all. I felt everybody was very friendly.

(0:34:47) speaker_0: When you were out and about in Korea, maybe away from your tour group, did you spot other GIs there or mili- US military?

(0:34:56) speaker_1: I didn’t notice them in most of the places that we went, because we were more in, I guess… Well, I guess maybe I just wasn’t looking for them as much.

(0:35:05) speaker_1: When we went to… Not even the camptown, to be honest.

(0:35:09) speaker_1: But we spent a day at the Sunlit Sisters Center, I believe it’s called, and that’s basically a community center for women who have retired from working in the camptowns.

(0:35:21) speaker_1: And that is actually located in an area that I think is still by a military base, and so there, we did see…

(0:35:29) speaker_1: I think when we were leaving, we saw a GI coming out of his apartment, and there was a Korean woman still inside.

(0:35:35) speaker_1: And I mean, I don’t know their relationship at all, but I was like, “Hmm, that’s exactly it right there (laughs) in front of my eyes.” So…

(0:35:43) speaker_0: I mean, how did that make you feel when you saw that? Did you have any feelings?

(0:35:47) speaker_1: I think at first, I was just surprised, not that I expected to not be around anymore, but I think because, as far as my mental history, my own history pushes it so far back to my infanthood, that it didn’t make sense that, “Why is it still here now?

(0:36:00) speaker_1: ” But of course it should be. We still have a military presence in Korea.

(0:36:04) speaker_0: And people are having relationships. I mean, it’s, um…

(0:36:07) speaker_1: Absolutely, yeah, and that’s the thing even back then. There were definitely people in legitimate…

(0:36:12) speaker_1: Like, they had fallen in love, and they just happened to be from different cultures.

(0:36:16) speaker_0: I just wondered if it brought up something for you….

(0:36:20) speaker_0: to see other GIs in Korea, um, even out in Itaewon or with the buzz cut, and you can, even if they’re in street clothes, you know, just to see if it brings up anything for you.

(0:36:32) speaker_0:

(0:36:32) speaker_1: To be honest, I didn’t notice them much in other places, because I think I was so focused on just soaking in the Korean culture.

(0:36:40) speaker_1: And especially, like right, actually, it was before I was even aware of the Hallyu wave.

(0:36:46) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:36:47) speaker_1: It was funny, because we saw some cards with like BTS and stuff on it, but I had no idea what that was at the time.

(0:36:52) speaker_1: (laughs) And then I come back to America, and suddenly my daughter’s like, “Oh, yeah, let me tell you.” (laughs) You know?

(0:36:58) speaker_1: I think the rest of the time, I was just so focused on trying to absorb as much of Korea that I wasn’t really even focused on most of the faces.

(0:37:06) speaker_0: When I lived in Korea, the military base was right still in Yongsan, right in the middle of Seoul, actually.

(0:37:13) speaker_0: And you know, there’s that wall that went around it, and the sign said, “Property of US-“

(0:37:18) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:37:19) speaker_0: … um, “military.

(0:37:20) speaker_0: ” And I just found that so shocking at that time when I was there, so shocking that, wow, it felt like we were colonizing, you know, a colonizer of Korea.

(0:37:29) speaker_0: And of course, we were invited there, but, you know, I would say it did give me some reservations about just US military presence in, in other countries as occupiers.

(0:37:41) speaker_0: And I wonder how you feel about that.

(0:37:44) speaker_1: It’s true, I mean, I love that you noticed the wall, for sure.

(0:37:48) speaker_1: I noticed that as well, because the thing I love about Korea is that there’s the old, old and the very, very modern, and sometimes the old is still just holding strong, wedged in between these super tall modern buildings.

(0:38:02) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:38:03) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:03) speaker_1: But then you’ve got, like you said, that imposing huge gray wall, probably with barbed wire, I’m guessing, and that’s just such a different feel, and I’m like, “That doesn’t feel comfortable at all.

(0:38:14) speaker_1: ” It doesn’t blend with either the old or the new.

(0:38:18) speaker_1: It’s just there, and taking up this space, and making its presence known, and I think more than anything, it really made me curious about, yeah, what do Koreans think about…

(0:38:29) speaker_1: I think it had me thinking about their side of things, and I think that was the thing too, like it was the intersection of like here, I’ve grown up in America, and I came from Korea, but it really gave me that visual that, “Wow, I’m actually a part of both histories.

(0:38:44) speaker_1: ” So here I felt like I had nowhere to land, but I’m actually a part of both.

(0:38:48) speaker_1: And I think just on the trip, you know, I was kind of processing things from a more personal view, but I definitely had that feeling too, where I was like, “I wonder what they really think over here of having the US here for so long.

(0:39:01) speaker_1: “

(0:39:01) speaker_0: Yeah, I mean, all of us are for, you know, the historical reasons in Korea, historical, cultural, for a lot of those reasons we’re here in America, or we were-

(0:39:11) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:39:11) speaker_0: … brought here.

(0:39:13) speaker_0: But in the case of PAPA adoptees or mixed race adoptees, there’s even more, you know, because of your parents and just the, the military piece of it that it must be even more kind of visceral, that connection to history, even from, you know, the closeup view of just, “These were my parents,” and, (laughs) and to go to the macro view of what that all means with the reason that, you know, your father was there.

(0:39:38) speaker_0:

(0:39:38) speaker_1: Yeah, and I think for me, because growing up, I never really was interested in history, and I think walking through Korea also suddenly sparked this realization that what we learned in books is probably not even half the story.

(0:39:55) speaker_1: (laughs) It’s like just barely scraping the surface, which I get. It’s, it’s a difficult task to do, but it was very skewed.

(0:40:01) speaker_0: History can be violent too, right?

(0:40:03) speaker_1: Very violent, very skewed, b- ’cause you know it’s gonna be written to favor whoever wrote the book, so… (laughs)

(0:40:09) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:40:10) speaker_1: But yeah, and then walking through it suddenly made me fascinated just by people’s journeys in general.

(0:40:16) speaker_1: I think starting with when I did DNA, that made me a little bit fascinated as well because sometimes with DNA it’s not always a very pinpoint accurate thing saying, “You’re from here,” it’s just saying, “We find a lot of the similar DNA from these regions.

(0:40:32) speaker_1: ” So sometimes when I log on, it’ll shift a little bit. Like, one day I’m 50% Korean.

(0:40:38) speaker_1: One day I’m 48% Korean and 3% Japanese or Chinese or, or whatever, and I’ve heard that because of the migration of people, that is a tendency that will show up, that maybe we’ve got some of those other bloods in our Korean blood.

(0:40:52) speaker_1: Um, and so that made me really fascinated as far as the migration of people, but it is also partially because of these wars and the history that went on, and yeah, I think it just made it more personal to me, where I’m now really fascinated by history, but only hearing it through people’s stories.

(0:41:09) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:41:10) speaker_0: So, you’ve done your DNA. What are your ancestries?

(0:41:13) speaker_1: So, I am 50% Korean, no surprise, but it was funny ’cause I always thought I must be part German, because I kind of have bigger bones, or I thought I must be Spanish because I love everything about Spanish culture, fashion, music, and I’m neither of those, so I’m actually mostly Polish.

(0:41:30) speaker_1: I think I’m a little bit of French-English in there.

(0:41:33) speaker_1: Um, yeah, it was interesting though because since I grew up in a Hungarian household, and Poland is pretty close, and they have a lot of similarities, I thought that was kind of fun.

(0:41:42) speaker_1:

(0:41:42) speaker_0: The kielbasa.

(0:41:44) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:41:45) speaker_0: (laughs) Um, how tall are you, Sara? You’re, you’re taller, aren’t you?

(0:41:50) speaker_1: No, well, okay, I’m the tallest in my family of three girls by like a quarter inch, but I’m really only 5’3 and three quarters tall.

(0:41:58) speaker_0: You’re really 5’3? For some reason, you just seem, I just remember you being a lot taller-

(0:42:04) speaker_1: Oh, thank you. (laughs)

(0:42:04) speaker_0: … than myself, but… (laughs)

(0:42:06) speaker_1: I’ll take it.

(0:42:07) speaker_0: Maybe it was a six-inch heel you were wearing.

(0:42:09) speaker_1: (laughs) Yeah, nobody’s ever said that to me, so I will take it. (laughs)

(0:42:12) speaker_0: Okay. And so, can I ask about your birth search? What have you found?

(0:42:17) speaker_1: Yeah. So first, I had started doing my DNA in 2015, and it was funny because it was a result of my daughter.

(0:42:24) speaker_1: She had to do a project for school where she had to put all the flags of the different countries she was from on the front of this binder, and, um, she didn’t know a quarter of it because of me.

(0:42:34) speaker_1: Well, and then honestly, too, her father’s father was also adopted so we aren’t 100% sure of his.

(0:42:42) speaker_1: So I decided to go ahead and take a test just to find what the other half was, and so that way, she could complete her project, and that just kind of drew me in a little bit because, you know, you open this can of worms and all of a sudden, you’ve got hundreds of cousins that you never knew you had.

(0:42:58) speaker_1: (laughs) And that was an amazing journey.

(0:43:00) speaker_1: But none of them were closer than, like, second cousins or something, and at the time, I just didn’t know what to do with that.

(0:43:06) speaker_1: So then, I happened to meet somebody from Ancestry and I had told them that I already had second cousins from my Family Tree DNA test, and they said, “Oh.

(0:43:14) speaker_1: Well, if you have second cousins with them, you should test with ours because we have an even bigger database.” And so they gave me a test and I tested.

(0:43:21) speaker_1: Same thing, second cousins or more.

(0:43:23) speaker_0: Was the second cousins with white folks or with Koreans?

(0:43:27) speaker_1: It was interesting because it was a person with a Japanese last name, but they were white, so I was like, “I don’t know.

(0:43:34) speaker_1: ” My mind didn’t quite know how to deal with that. (laughs) So I was like, “Okay.” I just tucked it away. So then what happened is 325Camera…

(0:43:41) speaker_1: ‘Cause I follow these groups, and they happened to mention one day, “If anybody has connections with people 250 centimorgans or above, let us know, and we might be able to help you out.

(0:43:51) speaker_1: ” So I looked back at the matches that I had, and lo and behold, one of these second cousin matches, actually two of them, I think, were, like, 278 centimorgans, which-

(0:44:01) speaker_0: Oh, you just made it.

(0:44:02) speaker_1: Right. I don’t even know how to explain what a centimorgan is but if you do DNA, it’s (laughs) a thing.

(0:44:08) speaker_1: So I sent all the information to them and I paid my little membership, and I think this was maybe likes six weeks before my trip, so I was hoping, fingers crossed, that maybe they’ll find some information before my trip.

(0:44:19) speaker_1: And I sent it off on a Sunday night at, like, 11:30 at night, and before noon the next day, I get an email from them.

(0:44:26) speaker_1: And this was, like, the craziest, busiest day I was having at work ever, and they’re like, “We think we found your dad.” And I was like, “What?”

(0:44:35) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:44:35) speaker_1: “What?” Like, I couldn’t even believe it, and I was like, “This is such a busy day, I cannot even open this email right now.

(0:44:41) speaker_1: I just have to, like, deal with that, do my busy day, and then come back to it afterwards.

(0:44:47) speaker_1: ” And so once w- we had our event and we put it on, I came back and it was like, 4:45.

(0:44:51) speaker_1: And my coworker and I, we opened the email together, and I looked at this picture that they sent and I was like, “No, that can’t be him.

(0:44:58) speaker_1: ” But then he happened to have a open Facebook profile, and so I looked, and I was like, “Well, maybe.

(0:45:03) speaker_1: ” And then I happened to find a picture of myself from, I think, that first San Francisco event where we were kind of faced the same way, and I was like, “Oh, maybe.

(0:45:12) speaker_1: Yeah, I could see this.”

(0:45:14) speaker_0: Oh, so you did some clue thing on Facebook to find him?

(0:45:16) speaker_1: I did. Oh, yeah.

(0:45:17) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:45:17) speaker_1: I’m pretty good at, (laughs) at finding people if I need to.

(0:45:20) speaker_0: Okay. (laughs)

(0:45:21) speaker_1: Then I wrote back and I was like, “Wow. You know? I mean, I trust you guys more than what I’m finding, but it does look pretty compelling.

(0:45:29) speaker_1: ” So I trusted the DNA Angels because I truly did not know what to say at this point.

(0:45:34) speaker_1: I mean, they’re re- very good at kind of coaching you as far as, like, “Don’t just show up to people in your database and be like, ‘Oh, hi, I’m adopted,’ and blah, blah, blah.

(0:45:42) speaker_1: ” (laughs) Like, don’t shock them with that right away. But at the same time, with this, I was like, “I totally trust you all to have these communications.

(0:45:49) speaker_1: ” So they reached out to him just saying that, “You know, we found this person who’s looking for more information on her history, and we’re wondering if you would consider testing to help her find some more answers.

(0:46:00) speaker_1: ” And so I believe he tested at the time because he thought I might be his half-brother’s child, and his half-brother had just recently passed away, so he was like, “Sure.

(0:46:12) speaker_1: I will take the test.”

(0:46:13) speaker_0: And he had also served in Korea?

(0:46:15) speaker_1: I guess so. I don’t honestly even remember if that had been brought up at that point. (laughs)

(0:46:19) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:46:19) speaker_1: I’m guessing it probably was. But yeah, so he, he said, “Sure. I’d be happy to test and help her find her answers.

(0:46:26) speaker_1: ” And they asked him if he was in Korea and he’s like, “Hmm, well…

(0:46:30) speaker_1: ” Like, he had been, but not during the times when I was born, so we’re trying to figure that out.

(0:46:35) speaker_1: I remember we were coming up with these scenarios like, “Well, maybe, maybe he was in Hawaii and she and her family took a vacation to Hawaii, and it was a summer romance or, you know, or that kind of thing, and, and then she went back to Korea and had the baby.

(0:46:48) speaker_1: ” Or, I don’t know, we were dreaming up of these scenarios.

(0:46:52) speaker_1: So then by the time the results came back that showed that he was my birth father, he then came clear and said, “Yes, I, I was in Korea,” but I had been retired from the military at that point and was doing individual contracted work, but it was on a top secret…

(0:47:08) speaker_1: I don’t want to say top secret mission. (laughs) That sounds so Mission Impossible.

(0:47:12) speaker_1: But, you know, it was something that he wasn’t supposed to share at the time, and-

(0:47:15) speaker_0: It was classified.

(0:47:16) speaker_1: … so he had to reach out to them while we were waiting for the DNA results and just say, “Hey, there’s this gal that’s looking for information.

(0:47:23) speaker_1: Am I allowed to tell her where I was?” ‘Cause this is 40 some years later. And so they said, “Sure, just let her know.

(0:47:29) speaker_1: ” So he told me he had been in Daegu, which is kind of close, but not that close to Busan where I was turned in.

(0:47:37) speaker_1: But he said that, yeah, while he was over there, he never had any long-term relationships. It was purely just people he met in the bars, and…

(0:47:45) speaker_1: But it was cool because he did tell me that he had left Labor Day of 1969, and nine months later is my birthday. So it did confirm that…

(0:47:55) speaker_1: ‘Cause that’s kind of a thing with adoptees too, is we don’t always know if the birthday we have is the real one.

(0:48:01) speaker_1: And so he did confirm that that was my birthday.

(0:48:03) speaker_0: And so he didn’t, he didn’t actually know for sure which woman?

(0:48:08) speaker_1: No. No, and in fact, um……

(0:48:10) speaker_1: because when I had gone to the orphanage and gotten two names out of my file, the person that turned me in, and then she also had put another address that was somebody else’s house.

(0:48:22) speaker_1: I went back and I did ask him if he recognized these names and he said, “No, I, I wouldn’t recognize their names and even if I had met them in a bar, they probably wouldn’t be using their real names or who knows.

(0:48:34) speaker_1: ” So he’s like, “No, it, I’m sorry, it doesn’t ring any bells.”

(0:48:37) speaker_0: Mm.

(0:48:38) speaker_1: So we haven’t actually met in person, but he was available and still is available on email if I had any questions.

(0:48:45) speaker_1: But at this point, I just don’t have any additional questions. (laughs) So I haven’t been in touch with him recently.

(0:48:51) speaker_0: Do you want to meet him?

(0:48:53) speaker_1: You know, I reached out, um, I would just be curious to sit across from him like for an hour or something.

(0:48:59) speaker_1: I’ve always been very curious about behavior versus, nature versus nurture.

(0:49:04) speaker_1: (laughs) And so I would love to sit across from him for an hour and just like watch him and, you know, that sounds creepy, but just watch how he moves and talks and that kind of thing and just see if I picked up anything.

(0:49:16) speaker_1: But, um, he’s got some-

(0:49:19) speaker_0: I, I hear a guardedness.

(0:49:21) speaker_1: Yeah, he’s got family that he was, he was married when he was in Korea, so when I was created, and he’s still married to this person.

(0:49:30) speaker_1: So there’s a little bit of an obstacle there and I, I respect that. I don’t want to cause her any more stress about this than she’s probably having.

(0:49:39) speaker_1: But yeah, the fascinating thing was then he said, “You know, I wrote a memoir for my kids and it is actually available on Amazon if you wanna download it.

(0:49:48) speaker_1: ” (laughs) And I was like, oh, that’s kind of cool because right there, I definitely am a writer and I was struggling over a memoir last fall and still am struggling a little bit, trying to figure out how to position it or what I’m trying to say.

(0:50:01) speaker_1: But it was cool to find that commonality then between the two of us.

(0:50:05) speaker_1: So I have not downloaded it yet, but once I do, I will definitely be spending some time with that.

(0:50:10) speaker_0: I wonder if he wrote about his time in Korea?

(0:50:12) speaker_1: I think a little bit. I don’t know.

(0:50:14) speaker_1: He said he wrote this memoir just for his kids and grandkids to have something to look back and just know a little bit more about him.

(0:50:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. And how old is he now?

(0:50:25) speaker_1: I believe he is like late 70s.

(0:50:29) speaker_0: Okay. And he’s, he’s told his wife, you think?

(0:50:33) speaker_1: He did.

(0:50:35) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:50:35) speaker_1: Yeah, and that’s… Because what happened was initially when we were first connected, he actually friended me on Facebook briefly.

(0:50:42) speaker_1: And I immediately panicked ’cause I have a pretty public profile, but I immediately panicked and locked it down so nobody could make comments on my page ’cause I just didn’t, I don’t know him.

(0:50:52) speaker_1: I didn’t know if he’d suddenly be like, “So they think I’m your dad.” You know? (laughs) And then suddenly everybody’s like, “What?

(0:50:59) speaker_1: ” So I, we were friends for a few weeks, I would say. It wasn’t even that long.

(0:51:04) speaker_1: And then it was on the day when I was going to my orphanage that he actually texted me that day and said, “You know what?

(0:51:10) speaker_1: I did tell my wife and she’s a little bit upset. And so out of respect for her, I need to not be your friend anymore, but I just wanted to let you know.

(0:51:18) speaker_1: ” Uh, not on, you know, on Facebook, he said, “But I’m still available if you have any questions and I’ll do my best to try to answer.”

(0:51:25) speaker_0: Mm. That’s such a tough situation to be in.

(0:51:28) speaker_1: It is. And I thought that, you know, maybe with time… ‘Cause I get it.

(0:51:33) speaker_1: I can only imagine from her point, as a woman, it’s not like he was hiding me for that long because he didn’t know about me, but at the same time, to get a shocker like this that late (laughs) in life and, and to be like unraveling every single thing he said, because that’s just something I would do as a woman.

(0:51:48) speaker_1: I don’t know their relationship at all, but, you know, I, I would take some time to process that and then be like, okay, but wait, life is still the same.

(0:51:56) speaker_1: Maybe I thought that she would perhaps calm down or at least see it from a different, more empathetic view.

(0:52:02) speaker_1: But yeah, I also want them to feel comfortable that I’m not just coming after a military pension or anything like that. I’m not here for any of that.

(0:52:09) speaker_1: I’m also not in it to just suddenly become somebody’s family.

(0:52:12) speaker_1: Like, I am curious about specific things and sure, I mean, I would be a friendly person if they had chosen to pursue a relationship, but I’m not in it for family.

(0:52:21) speaker_1: Like, I have my family.

(0:52:23) speaker_0: Do you have interest in potentially meeting half siblings or for your kids to have that connection?

(0:52:31) speaker_1: I would be curious, yeah, ’cause there are, there are two half siblings and I would definitely be curious to meet them, but out of respect, I would not reach out until the parents are no longer here probably.

(0:52:42) speaker_1: (laughs) And I’m not wishing anybody ill at all, but yeah, I would definitely leave that space.

(0:52:48) speaker_0: Um, that’s really interesting ’cause here you are, if I can just be observant, (laughs) you were a stalker right on Facebook trying to find-

(0:52:56) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:52:56) speaker_0: … and then you’re very restrained now, which I, I, I think is just out of respect that you know-

(0:53:01) speaker_1: Yeah, completely. Yeah.

(0:53:02) speaker_1: I mean, I have looked at the half siblings’ profiles a little bit because they’re public, but they’re also not very active on social, so that’s kind of also another reason.

(0:53:10) speaker_1: I mean, like I said, I’ve always been public with my profile, but I leave it that way also, even though I don’t do as much on social, just in case they ever did get curious, then they can see what I’m all about and hopefully-

(0:53:22) speaker_0: Oh, so that’s one of your reasons for having a public profile, is-

(0:53:26) speaker_1: A little bit. Yeah.

(0:53:27) speaker_0: Okay. What about your mother’s side, your Korean mother’s side? Have you, um…

(0:53:32) speaker_1: That’s been a little bit tougher. You know, these databases don’t have as many Korean people in them thus far.

(0:53:39) speaker_0: Right. Mm-hmm.

(0:53:40) speaker_1: Now I know that 325Camera has recently opened an office in Korea and they’re definitely making progress with that.

(0:53:49) speaker_1: But the closest I got on my mom’s side was a second cousin match. (laughs) So I reached out to them and ironically, they’re like super eager.

(0:53:59) speaker_1: It was funny because they were on there trying to locate all of their cousins.

(0:54:04) speaker_1: So then when I pop up as a second cousin, their goal is like somewhat accomplished or, you know, one part of it is.

(0:54:10) speaker_1: So I reached out and he’s like, “Oh yeah, yeah, I’m definitely, I’m trying to…

(0:54:14) speaker_1: ” Uh, his father had had a business, all the brothers had moved to opposite corners of the country after they had a falling out because of the business.

(0:54:21) speaker_1: So he’s just trying to scoop up his cousins-And he’s like, “Oh, yeah, I have no doubt you’re one of my cousins because I heard that some of, uh, the people in our family had married white people.

(0:54:29) speaker_1: ” And I was like, “Okay.” He’s, like, probably my son’s age, a little bit older.

(0:54:34) speaker_1: So eventually, I was like, “I feel like I need to explain why I keep chatting with you.

(0:54:39) speaker_1: ” (laughs) Because I, you know, I don’t know, even though we’re cousins.

(0:54:42) speaker_1: So I told him what it was going on, and he immediately was invested and like, “Oh, I wanna help you solve this mystery.” And…

(0:54:49) speaker_0: Was he Korean American in the States?

(0:54:52) speaker_1: He was born here in Chicago, I think, actually.

(0:54:55) speaker_0: Okay. And a younger generation, right? So…

(0:54:57) speaker_1: Younger generation, fully Korean.

(0:55:00) speaker_0: Okay. Okay.

(0:55:00) speaker_1: So he was like, “Oh, I wanna help you.

(0:55:02) speaker_1: ” So he immediately went out and bought two kits for his parents before I could even tell him that, like, 325Camera would help with that.

(0:55:09) speaker_1: So he went out, got them tested. But his mom came back also as a second cousin, but just with more centimorgans.

(0:55:16) speaker_1: So I think we’re thinking at this point that it’s gotta be one of her grandmother’s sisters or maybe one of her mother’s sisters. I’m not sure.

(0:55:27) speaker_1: I’m really bad at (laughs) mapping that out, to be honest.

(0:55:31) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:55:31) speaker_1: But here’s the problem. So the problem we’ve run into is that she was the youngest out of all of her siblings.

(0:55:37) speaker_1: Her mother was also the youngest out of all of her siblings.

(0:55:40) speaker_1: So usually, the youngest in the family don’t know the whole family history and the drama and the secrets as much as the older kids do.

(0:55:49) speaker_1: So he’s kind of, like, he’s trying to reach out to the ones that he knows. They did have one of her siblings, I think, come to the States.

(0:55:57) speaker_1: They were just coming on vacation, and so he happened to ask while they were there, but they didn’t know anything about it.

(0:56:03) speaker_1: But the other thing is, even if they do know something about it, are they gonna, are they gonna admit to that? So I don’t know. It’s an interesting thing.

(0:56:11) speaker_1: We’re kinda still, we’re taking it slowly, trying to figure out how to do this.

(0:56:14) speaker_1: He, and he even says, “Some of the relatives that I have back in Korea, we don’t even know all their names.

(0:56:20) speaker_1: ” So I think he’s kinda researching that a little bit.

(0:56:22) speaker_1: And I don’t know, I think next time, if he’s got family coming, I’ll just send a baby picture and say, “Does this baby look familiar?

(0:56:29) speaker_1: ” (laughs) you know, that kind of thing.

(0:56:31) speaker_0: You know, I kind of wonder about this because, you know, family is so important in Korea, right? The bloodlines?

(0:56:37) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:56:37) speaker_0: And yet, I ran into this in my own birth search through DNA, is that I feel like Koreans can be very tight with their immediate family, but then extended family, cousins, great uncles, great aunts, that they can be, like, not in communication with or don’t know what happened to them, or…

(0:56:57) speaker_0: It seems to be like this kind of, I don’t know if it’s a case with extended relatives where they just don’t, I mean, maybe that’s the norm, that people are not so connected beyond the more immediate…

(0:57:10) speaker_0:

(0:57:10) speaker_1: Yeah, I think it’s tough to maintain the tight family connections when people move to another country-

(0:57:17) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:57:17) speaker_1: … I think, in some ways.

(0:57:19) speaker_1: At one point, he had said, and I don’t totally know if it’s a real thing or not or if he was just joking at the time, because I think this was before he knew I was looking.

(0:57:29) speaker_1: But he did say once, he said, “Well, there is that one aunt in Daegu.” And I was like, “All right, mental note, and we’ll follow up on that later.” So…

(0:57:39) speaker_1:

(0:57:39) speaker_0: Oh. Mm-hmm.

(0:57:40) speaker_1: So I need to…

(0:57:41) speaker_1: And again, I’m trying not to press him and just make him feel like the only reason I’m talking to him is because I need to know this, even though he’s so willing to help.

(0:57:49) speaker_1: But yeah, I think at some point soon, I’ll probably circle back and just say, “So, you know, why don’t we focus all our attention on that person if that was a real person?

(0:57:57) speaker_1: ” Because then, 325Camera does have somebody also that will travel over there, and if we can get names or towns or that kind of thing, like, they will actually go and walk around and talk to people and see what they can find out.

(0:58:11) speaker_1:

(0:58:11) speaker_0: And I heard that that’s really often what can unearth things, is just people walking around and talking.

(0:58:18) speaker_1: I think so. Yeah, I think so.

(0:58:21) speaker_0: What happens, Sara, if you never meet either of your birth parents?

(0:58:26) speaker_1: I think for me, I’ve tended to make it more, you know, y- you hear those stories about people at the end of their lives, what do they regret, and I didn’t want to be one of those people that regretted not looking.

(0:58:40) speaker_1: And so for me, it’s been more about, how far can I go in my search? What can I uncover?

(0:58:45) speaker_1: So that at least someday, I will be confident in the fact that I got as far as I could.

(0:58:51) speaker_1: So, I mean, I hadn’t even anticipated when I started this journey, what am I gonna do if I find people? (laughs) Or, I haven’t really navigated that.

(0:59:01) speaker_1: But I think, yeah, for me, as long as I feel like I’ve done as much as I could, then I’ll be okay with it.

(0:59:07) speaker_0: And then last, I’m just kinda wrapping up here, Sara, but what would you like the rest of us adoptees who are not mixed race to know about your lived experience?

(0:59:17) speaker_0:

(0:59:17) speaker_1: Hmm.

(0:59:18) speaker_0: Do you feel more accepted or welcome?

(0:59:20) speaker_0: And maybe it was just your own perception that you weren’t welcome at other, you know, sort of adoptee events where you went and you looked at everyone that was maybe full Korean and just like, “This isn’t for me,” but you’ve had a few years now that you’ve been connecting, and do you feel a sense of belonging with other full race adoptees?

(0:59:39) speaker_0:

(0:59:39) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:59:40) speaker_1: Yeah, and honestly, I think once I got over that initial doorstep or whatever, getting in the first event and just getting over my fear, I would say, I think when it comes to Korean adoptee events, I don’t actually see, a lot of times, the difference between the mixed race and the full Korean, because I think I, in my brain, I’m just categorizing us all as Korean adoptees.

(1:00:05) speaker_1: And to be honest, like, I think for me, since I don’t have a grasp of who my Korean family is, to me, the adoptees are truly my Korean family.

(1:00:16) speaker_1: So I think that’s another reason why I don’t tend to separate people into categories.

(1:00:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:00:21) speaker_1: So I think for me, it’s just that I hope that……

(1:00:24) speaker_1: those of us that are going through and trying to find things now will hopefully make the journey easier for people that are coming up behind us as they come out of the adoptee fog.

(1:00:34) speaker_1: And the other thing is I really hope that people will share their stories, whether it’s writing poetry or, or just journaling for themselves so that maybe someday their family will find it and understand them more.

(1:00:47) speaker_1: Because I get it, like even my trip to Korea, I didn’t sit down and fully explain it all to my family just because it is so big and downloading all that information and the emotional weight of it all and…

(1:00:58) speaker_1: But I would love it if someday they’re able to look back when they’ve got the time and space and they’re interested in learning more about me, hopefully that they’ll have something that they can look at.

(1:01:09) speaker_1: So, that’s my reason for wanting to write it all down.

(1:01:12) speaker_1: But if nothing else, it also, I think, helps people process things if they can find a way just to get it out of their heads and their hearts and onto paper or something.

(1:01:21) speaker_1: I think it just helps us process because it is a big thing and it’s a unique thing that a lot of people have no idea how to relate to it, and when I go to talk to people and they don’t understand, even people in my family, like I try not to fault them for that because it’s not their experience.

(1:01:37) speaker_1: They have not lived as an adoptee so they don’t totally grasp what it’s like being an adoptee, even though they try.

(1:01:43) speaker_1: So yeah, I think it’s really important for the adoptees to just try to stick together and try to help each other up and along and just be a welcoming place.

(1:01:54) speaker_1:

(1:01:54) speaker_0: And you were part of an anthology? Can you talk a little bit about that?

(1:01:58) speaker_1: Yeah. I was… I submitted a chapter for the Mixed-Race Korean Anthology, and I think that was very early in my journey.

(1:02:07) speaker_1: It’s funny, even now looking back and reading what I turned in, it was a little more raw coming off of my childhood (laughs) growing up, e- even though this is only like a few years ago.

(1:02:18) speaker_1: It definitely brought up a lot more of the raw feelings of what it was like growing up as a mixed Korean and not feeling Korean enough, and…

(1:02:26) speaker_1: And I did definitely talk about the schoolyard and I talked about how my was-band, ex-husband, we got divorced and then he married a full Korean so that kinda…

(1:02:36) speaker_1: You know, and even though that may or may not have been intentional, it, to me, it still felt like it stung a little bit at the time.

(1:02:42) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:02:42) speaker_1: Um, now we’re all friends and I, I love her too, but, um-

(1:02:46) speaker_0: That, that at the time you felt like you hadn’t been Korean enough-

(1:02:50) speaker_1: Exactly. (laughs)

(1:02:51) speaker_0: … for him. Got it.

(1:02:52) speaker_1: Yeah, so I think that was really my focus for that entry.

(1:02:54) speaker_1: But it was funny ’cause at the end, I was like, “Well, someday I hope to go to Korea,” and blah, blah, blah, and I mean, it’s amazing since that time how much has changed and the momentum that has built.

(1:03:04) speaker_1: But it was a great experience for me because I hadn’t met that many mixed Koreans, and through the anthology and then also through the group in LA that we shared and did live readings with, it was amazing to be able to meet other people.

(1:03:17) speaker_1: And it’s funny though because I forget that some of them are not adoptees. But still, it’s been a great community to also be welcomed into.

(1:03:26) speaker_0: Uh, mixed-race folks in general or mixed-race Korean?

(1:03:29) speaker_1: Mixed-race Korean, but since then I’ve also been to a BIPOC adoptee conference, and same thing. There, it’s also a…

(1:03:36) speaker_1: It’s a wide variety of just blended adoptees from all different cultures, and it was just a beautiful space.

(1:03:43) speaker_0: Okay. All right, lovely. What’s the name of the anthology again?

(1:03:46) speaker_1: Um, I believe it is Mixed-Race Koreans, and the thing I loved about it too is that they took the time to translate it into Hangul so that then it could be read in Korea.

(1:03:59) speaker_1: And we were supposed to do a book tour October of 2020, but we know what happened with that. (laughs)

(1:04:05) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:04:05) speaker_1: COVID canceled that.

(1:04:06) speaker_1: But I really was looking forward to the opportunity to go back to Korea and be able to share my story as an adoptee and as a mixed-race Korean, and just to kind of educate them then a little bit too.

(1:04:19) speaker_1: So everyone’s welcome.

(1:04:20) speaker_0: The fact that you’re… With your was-band and his wife and you’re all friends now, that’s probably another podcast episode, but that sounds-

(1:04:27) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:04:28) speaker_0: … okay. (laughs)

(1:04:29) speaker_1: Yeah, it’s definitely… I mean, I had some role models along the way. But it’s, it’s a good experience now.

(1:04:35) speaker_1: Yeah, and they’ve got a 13-year-old daughter who is mixed race.

(1:04:39) speaker_1: And it’s fun though because we love bringing her along, and we took her to a BlackPink concert ’cause my daughter loves BlackPink.

(1:04:46) speaker_1: Actually, the 13-year-old was the one that introduced us to BlackPink, so we went to that together, and we’ve done some movies.

(1:04:53) speaker_1: I also have a 13-year-old niece, so we’ve taken the girls to movies. So it’s just fun to kind of have those common bonds.

(1:05:01) speaker_0: Well, it sounds like you have a lot of family, you know?

(1:05:04) speaker_1: Definitely.

(1:05:04) speaker_1: And I think also as I get older too, I’m realizing that family by friendship is also incredibly valuable, so I definitely look at how I choose my friends and those I choose to keep closer and that kind of thing, and it’s for bigger reasons, not just ’cause they’re fun.

(1:05:20) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:05:21) speaker_0: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. And if folks want to get in touch with you, are you open to that? And how can they do it if so?

(1:05:27) speaker_1: Oh, absolutely. I do have a blog. It’s a little bit neglected right now, but I do throw things up there every now and then. It’s makesmewander.com.

(1:05:36) speaker_1: That’s wander with an A.

(1:05:37) speaker_1: And so I believe through there they can actually email me if they want to, or on Facebook, I’m also open to connecting there as well.

(1:05:45) speaker_0: Okay. Thank you so much, Sarah. It was really great to talk to you more, and, uh, I hope you keep sharing your story.

(1:05:52) speaker_1: Thank you. I’m so grateful for this opportunity to connect with you and also to be a part of your podcast.

(1:05:57) speaker_1: I think it’s such an important podcast to have, and it’s been very helpful through the years.

(1:06:02) speaker_2: (instrumental music)

(1:06:11) speaker_0: Thank you so much, Sarah. I wish you the very best as you continue in your adoptee journey.

(1:06:18) speaker_0: Thank you also to Delight Roberts for a recent donation, and to Kate Kelly and Ji Sun Yang for supporting us on our Patreon.

(1:06:26) speaker_0: Jenna Lee Park provided audio production, (… ) is our volunteer Korean translator. I’m Kiyomi Lee. See you next time.

(1:06:34) speaker_2: (instrumental music)

Korean adoptee Delight Roberts, 52, talks about marrying into a Korean-American family and the challenges and benefits that provided her. Some were surprising – like table eating etiquette – but all of Roberts’ experiences from childhood bullying to having future in-laws who didn’t approve of her because she is adopted, have strengthened Roberts’ resolve to live the life of her choice.

Audio available on Friday, June 21, 2024. Patreon supporters have early access.

Transcribed by AI

(0:00:00) speaker_0: (music) Welcome to Adopted podcast, Season 7, Episode 21 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:19) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:28) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our adoptive families, and a wider society that wants only a feel-good story.

(0:00:39) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. This is a safe space where we can explore all of ourselves. Please listen to our stories.

(0:00:47) speaker_1: I was not aware of a lot of the cultural issues that would be present, nor did I have an appreciation for, for the fact that being adopted would be a big issue.

(0:00:58) speaker_1:

(0:00:59) speaker_0: What is it like to marry into a Korean American family? We’ll explore that with this next guest, Korean adoptee, Delight Roberts.

(0:01:07) speaker_0: She struggled to fit in growing up in Utah and felt stigmatized for her race and her family.

(0:01:13) speaker_0: As an adult woman meeting Korean American immigrant in-laws for the first time, she felt another kind of stigma. But I’ll let Delight tell her story.

(0:01:23) speaker_0: Here’s Delight.

(0:01:31) speaker_1: Delight Roberts, I’m 52, and I live in Seattle.

(0:01:37) speaker_0: Okay, Delight, so I’m sure you’re tired of explaining this, but there’s gotta be a story about your name.

(0:01:44) speaker_1: Oh, yeah. Actually, so my parents waited a long time, um, my mom could not have children, and they waited a long time to actually have a child.

(0:01:56) speaker_1: But the other part of the story is my mom actually had a sister named Delight who had died when she was seven during a tonsillectomy.

(0:02:04) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(0:02:05) speaker_1: Yeah, and so those are the two reasons I have been given for my name.

(0:02:09) speaker_0: How does that feel, having the namesake of someone else?

(0:02:13) speaker_1: You know, it’s funny, I didn’t think about it for a really long time, but I was extremely close to my grandfather, so the father of the first Delight who had died during a tonsillectomy, and he and I were very, very close, and he wrote me a letter once and just basically said that it was like the greatest gift after that loss that he had mourned so many years ago to then have another Delight in his life to love like he had loved her.

(0:02:36) speaker_1: And so I never felt like it was a burden, uh, I think because it was so tragic. She basically died of an anesthesia issue.

(0:02:44) speaker_1: I think it was an anesthesia overdose-

(0:02:47) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(0:02:47) speaker_1: … which is very unlikely to happen today, um, but yeah, that part never… I never felt burdened by it.

(0:02:54) speaker_0: Were your grandparents Southern?

(0:02:57) speaker_1: No, no.

(0:02:57) speaker_1: So my grandparents were from California and my grandfather had come to Salt Lake, he worked for the National Weather Service, and so they ended up in Utah, total anomaly because they weren’t Mormon, and yeah.

(0:03:12) speaker_1:

(0:03:13) speaker_0: Okay, okay. And so you… Where did you grow up?

(0:03:16) speaker_1: I grew up in Salt Lake, in a suburb just outside of Salt Lake City.

(0:03:19) speaker_0: Yes.

(0:03:19) speaker_0: And so a long time ago, I went to Salt Lake, a friend of mine had moved from Minnesota after she graduated from college and she lived in Salt Lake, and I remember when I went to visit her, there was like…

(0:03:32) speaker_0: It probably doesn’t still exist, but you had to put your name on a list if you were gonna have a drink.

(0:03:37) speaker_1: Oh, yeah.

(0:03:40) speaker_0: Were you caught with it?

(0:03:41) speaker_1: Yeah, the liquor laws are very challenging, interesting, obtuse, pick one of those, ’cause it’s a dry state.

(0:03:48) speaker_1: So like, you can only buy alcohol at the designated store.

(0:03:52) speaker_1: You can’t buy it, like, in the grocery store, and there are only a limited number of manufacturers and suppliers that can supply alcohol to those stores, and they’re usually not, like, top wines.

(0:04:03) speaker_1: And so, yeah, that’s not surprising.

(0:04:04) speaker_1: I’m sure you probably were, like, at a private club or restaurants at the time used to have to get, like, a private license so they could serve alcohol.

(0:04:11) speaker_1:

(0:04:11) speaker_0: Yeah, I think it was probably more like a bar or restaurant or something like that where she had to submit my name ahead of time or just that I was a visitor and I don’t know, maybe it was because there were special licenses that establishments had to get.

(0:04:27) speaker_0:

(0:04:27) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah, I think that probably was the case.

(0:04:30) speaker_0: Which I just thought was the most bizarre thing, but… (laughs)

(0:04:34) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:04:35) speaker_0: It was beau- ah, it’s beautiful out there.

(0:04:36) speaker_1: Yes, and that is why a lot of people live there. Like, the natural beauty, I miss that to this day. It’s so beautiful, the mountains…

(0:04:44) speaker_1: If you’re outdoorsy, it’s fantastic, although it’s gotten a lot more crowded since I left.

(0:04:49) speaker_1: I left, uh, gosh, 30 years ago, but I still go back pretty frequently because my family is there, but it is so beautiful.

(0:04:56) speaker_0: Yeah, so not only were you Korean growing up and maybe the only Asian in your neighborhood, school?

(0:05:05) speaker_1: So in my elementary school, my brother, who’s also adopted from Korea, we were the only two Asians. It was horrible. And, and…

(0:05:14) speaker_0: (laughs) So being the only Asian and then also being not Mormon.

(0:05:17) speaker_1: Not Mormon, and there was a third strike and that was that my mother was divorced and in 19… Let’s see, that was in 1977.

(0:05:26) speaker_0: Oh, wow, okay.

(0:05:27) speaker_1: D- Divorce was hugely, hugely rare, scandalous. I mean, there were kids that would not play with us because my mother was divorced.

(0:05:37) speaker_1: It was like she had The Scarlet Letter. It’s crazy to think about that now, but we really were marginalized in a lot of ways for all those reasons.

(0:05:46) speaker_1: It was a pretty tough upbringing, I have to say.

(0:05:49) speaker_0: Um, do you think that some of your experiences that you grew up in kind of, you know, tough and probably many ways really have stayed with you?

(0:05:57) speaker_1: Oh, definitely, because I… My brother and I were both bullied pretty mercilessly too for being Asian….

(0:06:04) speaker_1: taunted, like, daily about our eyes and our face and how we looked and, you know, they’d sing those rhymes.

(0:06:09) speaker_1: And back then, you know, nobody took bullying seriously. And my mom was a school teacher. And she didn’t teach at the same school we went to, but-

(0:06:17) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:06:17) speaker_1: … you know, the answer back then to any bullying, the response was, “Oh, it’s because they like you,” or, “Ignore it.”

(0:06:25) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:06:25) speaker_1: And now, we know just how damaging that was.

(0:06:28) speaker_1: But yeah, I definitely think that shaped me and it was a pretty difficult place to be a kid, uh, I think if you’re not white and you’re not Mormon.

(0:06:37) speaker_1: Uh, more importantly, it was very lonely and the thing that saved me is that I was very close to my family, really close to my mom, and my grandpa, and my grandma before she died, and then my uncles.

(0:06:49) speaker_1: And so having them around, I- I think really helped want some of what I was experiencing during the day.

(0:06:55) speaker_1: And back then, thank God, there was no social media, so I could just go home, literally slam the door, and I knew I was safe, and it was quiet.

(0:07:03) speaker_1: And I read a lot, so I could escape into my books and my dog. And that really was a refuge for me.

(0:07:09) speaker_0: How do you respond to being bullied like that so frequently? Did you become a fighter or did you avoid people?

(0:07:17) speaker_1: No, I was a crier. I mean, I would, I would run away. I was a runner. So, and we lived just around the corner from my house, so I would just leave.

(0:07:26) speaker_1: When I couldn’t take it anymore, I would just run away from school and I’d go home. But I cried a lot. I was not a fighter.

(0:07:32) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:07:33) speaker_1: And part of me wishes that I had fought back, but, um, yeah, it was just-

(0:07:41) speaker_0: That sort of response, yeah.

(0:07:42) speaker_1: Yeah. So I, I would just run home when I couldn’t take it anymore, when it just became too much.

(0:07:47) speaker_1: But the other thing that was really hard is, a lot of parents didn’t want their kids to play with us or to be our friends.

(0:07:53) speaker_1: Again, I don’t know how much of that was, you know, allocated because we were Asian, because my mom was divorced, because we weren’t Mormon.

(0:08:01) speaker_1: I actually, I think the religion part played a pretty big part in that.

(0:08:04) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:08:05) speaker_1: And what people don’t realize is that with Mormons, a lot of the social activity and a lot of the community, like they do have a very strong community, so all of the kids would be doing something every night through the church.

(0:08:17) speaker_1: So if you weren’t a part of the church, you were really left out.

(0:08:21) speaker_1: And that goes for, like, school dances, just about th- the entire social life revolved around the church, so to not be part of that…

(0:08:28) speaker_1: And they were not inclusive if you were not Mormon, so it’s not like if you had a friend you could go to their, you know, Monday night craft activity for the kids and participate.

(0:08:36) speaker_1:

(0:08:36) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Why would your mother settle there?

(0:08:39) speaker_1: Oh, that is a very good question. So she, my mom was just a remarkable person.

(0:08:45) speaker_1: She went to Berkeley in the ’60s, paid for it herself, because at the time, my grandfather, who changed his views over the years, just didn’t think women needed an education, so he wouldn’t pay for it.

(0:08:57) speaker_1: So my mom worked three jobs-

(0:08:58) speaker_0: Wow.

(0:08:59) speaker_1: … to put herself through college. And then I don’t know why she came back. I’ve often asked her, I was like, “Mom, you were free.

(0:09:04) speaker_1: You should’ve just stayed there.”

(0:09:06) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:09:07) speaker_1: But she returned I think because her family was there and then just didn’t leave, you know?

(0:09:13) speaker_0: Oh, I see. So she was from Salt Lake.

(0:09:16) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah.

(0:09:17) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:09:17) speaker_1: So both of my grandparents had based their family in Salt Lake, and so my mom went away for college, but then came back ’cause that’s where everybody was.

(0:09:25) speaker_1:

(0:09:25) speaker_0: And why would they? And I’m just kind of wondering, you know, non-Mormon, it’s gotta be kind of a little bit…

(0:09:32) speaker_1: I think, you know, it’s, that’s a question I never asked, and I’m very sorry I have never asked him that directly ’cause he’s gone now too, but I don’t know, I was always just told that he’d gone for work.

(0:09:42) speaker_1: It’s interesting because men back then made all the decisions.

(0:09:47) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:09:48) speaker_1: And for a lot of men, a lot of their social needs are met through their families and through their wives.

(0:09:54) speaker_1: So, I suspect that my grandpa wasn’t nearly as bothered about not being Mormon and being in Salt Lake as maybe my grandma was in terms of making friends and, and socially.

(0:10:04) speaker_1:

(0:10:05) speaker_0: Having a social circle.

(0:10:06) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:10:07) speaker_0: So when did things get better for you?

(0:10:09) speaker_1: Um, things got better when I went to college, for sure. I had really wanted to go away for college, but my mom was a teacher, and so couldn’t afford it.

(0:10:21) speaker_1: And I got a full ride scholarship to the University of Utah.

(0:10:24) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:10:25) speaker_1: But I was so miserable in school that I skipped my senior year of high school, and so I started college when I was 16.

(0:10:31) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(0:10:32) speaker_1: Just to get out of that environment. And I’m an extrovert and I have a lot of friends now, but it was really hard for me to make friends.

(0:10:37) speaker_1: Like, it was just a really hard thing.

(0:10:39) speaker_1: And by the time you’re in high school, you’re not bullied outwardly anymore as much as you’re just more kind of left out.

(0:10:46) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:10:46) speaker_1: And so I really was looking to find my people.

(0:10:49) speaker_1: But I ended up at University of Utah, which I have to say, back then was not the university I would have chosen.

(0:10:55) speaker_1: But because I had wanted to get out of high school so badly and qualified for early admissions-

(0:11:01) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:11:02) speaker_1: … that, to me, seemed like the best option.

(0:11:04) speaker_0: It makes sense, a full ride too.

(0:11:06) speaker_1: Yeah. So I stayed, and then, I’m a lawyer, so I had also gone to law school in Utah.

(0:11:11) speaker_1: And it was kind of the same thing, I had also intended to leave, but my mom didn’t really want me to leave, ’cause we were, we were quite close.

(0:11:19) speaker_1: And then I also got a really nice scholarship for law school, and I was kind of afraid to leave. Back then, I didn’t really like change.

(0:11:26) speaker_1: As much as I wanted to go, I was pretty happy to stay too.

(0:11:30) speaker_1: And in hindsight, I’m really grateful for that, ’cause my mom ended up dying unexpectedly when she turned 60 of a heart attack.

(0:11:39) speaker_1: And so I’m really grateful that I had that time with her, ’cause I saw her a lot in law school and in college.

(0:11:45) speaker_0: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:11:47) speaker_1: But as soon as I graduated from law school, I was like, “I am outta here.”

(0:11:50) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:11:50) speaker_1: “I’m going to wa- I’m going to one of the two Washingtons. I’m either going to Washington State or I’m going to Washington DC,” ’cause I love politics.

(0:11:55) speaker_1: But I- I knew that I wasn’t gonna stay.

(0:11:58) speaker_0: Now, I know they don’t give out full rides, uh, to anyone. You must’ve been quite studious and did well academically.

(0:12:07) speaker_0: Did you see academic school as freedom and ticket out of there?

(0:12:13) speaker_1: … know about that, but I just was a super nerd.

(0:12:16) speaker_1: Like, I really liked school, I loved to read, I liked to learn, and I was really achievement-focused, I really liked getting the A, and so (laughs) all those things together.

(0:12:27) speaker_1: And like I said, I didn’t have a lot of distractions ’cause I didn’t really have any friends, and so I had a lot of time to study.

(0:12:33) speaker_1: And so I don’t know if I really thought of it as an escape or as my ticket out, but it was just something that I could focus on on the day-to-day.

(0:12:41) speaker_2: And where did you meet your husband?

(0:12:45) speaker_1: Oh, that is like, a really good story.

(0:12:48) speaker_1: So I met my husband Tom in Seattle through friends, and the funny part about this is that I- I had two friends, Michelle and Peter, who both had separately had reached out to me about meeting their friend Tom.

(0:13:02) speaker_1: So Michelle and I have lunch one day and she’s telling me about him and I’m like, “You know what? Nah, he’s just, he doesn’t, he’s not my type.

(0:13:09) speaker_1: I- I don’t think so.

(0:13:10) speaker_1: ” Peter was a lot more persistent, and Peter is Tom’s best friend, and Peter and Michelle are both Korean-American, and they were both like, “Oh, we’ve, you know, you should meet my friend Tom.

(0:13:19) speaker_1: ” And I was like, “No, no, no.” And so, but Peter kept-

(0:13:23) speaker_2: What wasn’t he your type? What was, uh, what did you think?

(0:13:25) speaker_1: Yeah. Um, (laughs) Michelle was like, “Well, he’s really quiet and he’s introverted and he’s kinda shy.” And I was like, “Oh.” Like, “No.”

(0:13:35) speaker_2: (laughs)

(0:13:35) speaker_1: “I don’t…” Like, I mean, I’m not like, a super extrovert, but I was like, “Oh,” you know? “That doesn’t really sound like my type.

(0:13:42) speaker_1: ” And honestly, the other thing too is she’s like, “Oh, and he’s Korean-American,” and that was not something I had ever looked for. So…

(0:13:48) speaker_2: Hm.

(0:13:49) speaker_1: It was not like I was out there trying to date different Asians or Korean men. As a matter of fact, Tom was one of only a few Asians that I had ever dated.

(0:13:56) speaker_1: But Peter kept being like, “Oh, come to this happy hour, come to this, come to that.” And I kept declining. This went on for months.

(0:14:03) speaker_1: Well, one day I was supposed to go over to Peter’s house, he and his wife Julie, to their house for dinner, and we’d had to cancel the first time and then I had been painting my house the day that I was supposed to go over there for dinner, and I thought about canceling ’cause it was like, five o’clock and I was in my painting clothes and I was like, “Oh, I don’t really feel like getting cleaned up and going over there.

(0:14:23) speaker_1: ” And I thought, “Oh, what the heck? It’s just Peter and his wife.” And so I didn’t even shower, I was just like, “All right.

(0:14:28) speaker_1: ” Didn’t even change my painting clothes. So I pulled up to their house and I parked, and immediately a car pulled up behind me and out pops Tom.

(0:14:38) speaker_1: And I was like, “Oh, man. This is that guy that they’ve been trying to set me up with. I’m gonna kill Peter.”

(0:14:44) speaker_2: (laughs) You knew it was a set-up, right?

(0:14:45) speaker_1: Well, I figured it out pretty quickly.

(0:14:47) speaker_2: (laughs)

(0:14:47) speaker_1: And of course, Peter, I walk up and I’m at this point just super annoyed, and Peter said, “Oh, did we not tell you our friend was coming?”

(0:14:56) speaker_2: (laughs)

(0:14:56) speaker_1: I was like, “No. No, you did not, you did not tell me that.

(0:15:00) speaker_1: ” But it’s actually a pretty fun story because we go in, and for like, the first hour Tom sits against the wall and doesn’t say a thing, and I’m thinking, “Oh man, this guy is like, such a dud.

(0:15:10) speaker_1: ” And I was thinking to myself, “What’s the minimum amount of time I have to stay and not be rude so I can go back home and finish my painting?

(0:15:17) speaker_1: ” And then we had gone out to their deck to have dinner, and Tom and I started talking.

(0:15:22) speaker_1: We both liked this film that nobody else saw called Nowhere in Africa, set during World War II, and it was like, one of our favorite movies.

(0:15:29) speaker_2: Oh, how random.

(0:15:30) speaker_1: Exactly. And then we started like, having all these things in common. He actually was born in Salt Lake, but had moved when he was a toddler.

(0:15:36) speaker_2: Oh my gosh. That’s so sweet.

(0:15:37) speaker_1: Just some really randomly weird things. It was like the movies.

(0:15:41) speaker_1: And then you couldn’t shut either one of us up, and it was like, it was like my friends disappeared, and I remember thinking-

(0:15:48) speaker_2: (laughs)

(0:15:48) speaker_1: … every once in a while that we needed to include them in the conversation ’cause we were being rude.

(0:15:52) speaker_2: (laughs) So it was that moment where everything else falls away.

(0:15:57) speaker_1: Everything else fell away. And it was kinda crazy. And I’ll tell you, I was 35 when we met.

(0:16:05) speaker_1: Tom was almost 40, so it’s not like we were just out of college and didn’t know what we were doing on the dating front.

(0:16:14) speaker_1: But this was in August, and we were engaged by Thanksgiving.

(0:16:18) speaker_2: Wow. Your friends really did know you.

(0:16:22) speaker_1: Yes, yes.

(0:16:22) speaker_2: Because it wasn’t just a, you know, like, “Our two single friends. Let’s have them meet.” Like, they must’ve really seen something.

(0:16:29) speaker_1: They did. And what I tell people now, you know, younger people, I’m like, “Oh, you know what? Forget about your type.

(0:16:34) speaker_1: How much is looking for your type, how far has that gotten you so far? Yeah, not very far. So maybe you should be a little more open-minded.

(0:16:41) speaker_1: ” It was pretty crazy, and it was so fast that even my brother and my best friend both pulled me aside.

(0:16:46) speaker_1: They were like, “Look, we really like Tom, but do you think you guys are rushing it?” I was like, “No.” And we’ll be married 17 years in July. So…

(0:16:53) speaker_2: Wow. Congratulations.

(0:16:54) speaker_1: Yeah. Thank you. So it’s kind of a crazy story.

(0:16:56) speaker_1: Sometimes I can’t even believe, like if somebody else was telling me this story, I’d be like, “No, I really don’t believe.” It was a, kind of a crazy thing.

(0:17:04) speaker_1:

(0:17:04) speaker_2: I mean, I’m single, not married, and you know, people are like, “Oh, when you know, you know,” or whatever.

(0:17:10) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:17:11) speaker_2: Did that ring true for you?

(0:17:12) speaker_1: It really did.

(0:17:13) speaker_1: I had had boyfriends, I had lived with two people, had long-term relationships with both of them, and when I met Tom, after that first meeting, he’d asked me out and I was hosting a baby shower, and I was like, “Well, you can come over and…

(0:17:27) speaker_1: ” And we had mutual friends who were coming to that baby shower, so I said, “Yeah, why don’t you come over to the shower?

(0:17:31) speaker_1: ” And then we were gonna go to the movies. We ended up talking for like, eight hours and after that, I was like, “I think that’s the guy I’m gonna marry.

(0:17:38) speaker_1: ” And what’s funny is, the next morning, he had called his oldest sister and he said, “I think I met the person I’m gonna marry.”

(0:17:44) speaker_2: Wow.

(0:17:45) speaker_1: So, so yes. To, to your point, I used to never believe that. I was like, “What do you mean you just know? Like, that is just made-up.

(0:17:53) speaker_1: ” But it really was like a sense of knowing, and part of it was, you know how when you’re single and you go on a date and then basically after the date you’re like, post-morteming it?

(0:18:02) speaker_1: You’re like, replaying the day thinking about all the things you should’ve said differently or done differently or whatever?

(0:18:07) speaker_1: Th- there was never, there was none of that with Tom. I just was super comfortable being myself.

(0:18:13) speaker_0: When you were dating and even, you know, through marriage, did you ever feel like your adoption, being adopted somehow played a role in your attachment style?

(0:18:26) speaker_0: Or if you have “attachment issues,” quote unquote?

(0:18:30) speaker_1: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Hmm, I haven’t really, um, I think spent a lot of time thinking about it in those kinds of terms.

(0:18:38) speaker_1: I mean, I will say this, thanks to a lot of therapy throughout my life, I feel like I had worked through a lot of my issues.

(0:18:46) speaker_1: Honestly, I think more of my issues came from the fact that my parents were divorced, and that my dad had left, and really wasn’t part of my life.

(0:18:56) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:18:56) speaker_1: And if there were some sort of issue around adoption, as I said, I’m 52, and so during all of my childhood, there wasn’t an awareness around adoption that there is now.

(0:19:06) speaker_1: Like you were expected to be adopted into a family, and then just be happy and grateful and feel lucky…

(0:19:12) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:19:12) speaker_1: And live happily ever after.

(0:19:14) speaker_1: And so, I mean, I credit my mother, and like I said, in my very close relationships with my grandfather and my uncles, to the fact that I didn’t feel like I had really an attachment issue per se.

(0:19:28) speaker_1: And what’s funny is, with adoption, like I just hadn’t spent a lot of time really deeply contemplating what it meant.

(0:19:34) speaker_1: And I have to admit, I am probably somebody that has been late to the, um, late to thinking very deeply about some of those issues and what they mean and the history.

(0:19:45) speaker_1: And it’s quite painful now for me to do that as an adult.

(0:19:49) speaker_1: And I think because I have a lot of perspective because I am older, now that I’m learning more and doing more, like I didn’t go to Korea until I met Tom, and really wasn’t interested in it, wasn’t interested in, like, seeking out an adoptee community.

(0:20:05) speaker_1: And interestingly, my mother was far more interested in, uh, going to Korea and finding a biological family.

(0:20:11) speaker_1: And she had always said to me that she had wanted us to go together ’cause she wanted to thank my adoptive mother. She wanted to find her and thank her.

(0:20:18) speaker_1: But for me, this is kind of something I’ve come to, I’d say, later in life, given my, given my age.

(0:20:25) speaker_1: But now that I am learning more about it, I spend a lot of time thinking about it, and I have to compartmentalize it. Like I can’t…

(0:20:31) speaker_1: It’s just so overwhelming and it’s so painful sometimes, especially now that I’ve learned so much more about the Human Rights Commission and the investigations and Holt.

(0:20:40) speaker_1: Like I grew up thinking Holt was fantastic. The stories I was told, it’s just the Holts were like saints on Earth. They were amazing.

(0:20:49) speaker_1: And that was the narrative I believed my entire life until recently.

(0:20:54) speaker_1: And so that undoing a- a- and just really realizing what an industry it was, and still, I mean, it really…

(0:21:01) speaker_1: So it’s been, um, it’s been something that’s been really hard for me at times to think about for too long.

(0:21:10) speaker_0: Sort of the reeducation process.

(0:21:12) speaker_1: Yeah. Or I would just say the education process, ’cause I never got the first education. I mean, except for the, the narrative, the story.

(0:21:20) speaker_1: And so now it’s like, oh, there’s a whole other story, and there are whole other pieces of truth.

(0:21:25) speaker_0: Yeah. And growing up in the ’70s and ’80s, I mean, it was pretty… There were very dominant narratives around adoption and how we should feel.

(0:21:34) speaker_1: Yeah. And there was no way to find other narratives, right? ‘Cause this was the time before social media and the internet.

(0:21:40) speaker_0: Right.

(0:21:42) speaker_1: So you were really limited in terms of the information, even the people that you could seek to connect with.

(0:21:47) speaker_1: My mom had started the first Korean heritage camp for adopted Korean kids when I was, I think I must have been 10.

(0:21:53) speaker_1: And that was so fanta- Like I looked forward to that every summer. And kids would fly in from Colorado and Wyoming, like all the surrounding states.

(0:22:02) speaker_1: And then we would spend a week with first generation Korean American college students from Berkeley.

(0:22:08) speaker_1: There was an organization called KIM, Korean Identity Matters, and they would be our camp counselors.

(0:22:13) speaker_1: And it was just so much fun ’cause then we would have like a week of language and culture and folktales and history. And we loved it.

(0:22:22) speaker_1: And the best thing about it was it was a place to go for one week a year where I did not have to field questions about, “Who are your real parents?

(0:22:29) speaker_1: Do you know who they are?” You know, “How old were you when you were adopted?” All those questions-

(0:22:35) speaker_0: Were you given up? Yeah.

(0:22:36) speaker_1: … yes, I did not have to answer. It was so fantastic.

(0:22:40) speaker_0: You know, and you’re probably, uh, you’re a great person to ask this, ’cause I’ve always wondered, for years, you know, decades predominantly, it’s white adoptive parents who put on these culture camps.

(0:22:51) speaker_0: They’re usually the ones involved and-

(0:22:53) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:22:53) speaker_0: …

(0:22:53) speaker_0: the volunteers and for one week a year perhaps, all the adopted kids are together and they’re singing songs or l- learning about drawing and, um, you know, writing their name in Hangul or, or eating food.

(0:23:11) speaker_0: But is that just cosmetic culture? I mean, obviously, white adoptive parents, they know what they’re missing to instill cultural competency.

(0:23:21) speaker_0: But I know all of us, when we are around other Korean Americans, maybe not so much as an older person, but you know, as a younger person, that we feel really white.

(0:23:31) speaker_0: And so wondering, is there something that our white adoptive parents could have given us to help our identity growth and our cultural competency?

(0:23:39) speaker_0: Or is it just the fact that they can’t give us certain things?

(0:23:42) speaker_1: Oh, that’s a really great question. No, I mean, I, I think they definitely can. I think part of it is the time in which we were raised.

(0:23:52) speaker_1: The idea that a week is gonna be enough.

(0:23:54) speaker_1: And at these camps, they were not talking about issues of abandonment or the adoption industry or how lonely it is or the isolation of being the only in a white community, right?

(0:24:03) speaker_1: Like there’s nobody there trying to facilitate that kind of a conversation. Um, but I will tell you something interesting.

(0:24:09) speaker_1: Two of my really close friends both have adopted daughters from China…. and I’ve known one of them since the day she was adopted.

(0:24:16) speaker_1: I wrote the letter for my friends, a recommendation, and the other one I’ve known since she was four.

(0:24:22) speaker_1: It is just striking to me what a different world it is now to raise an adopted child from Asia.

(0:24:28) speaker_1: Both of my friends have done an amazing job with having those conversations early, with not being performative, but really wanting to provide their children with the right environment and the right climate to be who they are and to feel sad and to embrace their culture.

(0:24:47) speaker_1: It’s pretty impressive ’cause these girls didn’t just get a week. I mean, this is their life. They belong to an adoptee group. They get together often.

(0:24:56) speaker_1: Well, they’re both in college now, the young women are both in college, but when they were younger, they did a lot of stuff together as kids with the adoptive community.

(0:25:04) speaker_1: Like, they both had gone back to China when they were much younger, before they were teenagers.

(0:25:09) speaker_1: One of my friends, they went and they lived in China for three months, and Lucy went to a Chinese school for three months.

(0:25:17) speaker_1: Like, they have done a lot to really truly…

(0:25:21) speaker_1: T- to just make sure that they were really cognizant and welcoming and open about some of the issues that adoption brings. And they’re white.

(0:25:33) speaker_0: They’re, your friends are white?

(0:25:34) speaker_1: They, they are.

(0:25:35) speaker_0: Oh.

(0:25:35) speaker_1: For the one set of parents, they’re both white. The other set of parents, the mom is Chinese and the dad is white.

(0:25:41) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:25:42) speaker_1: But both of the girls are Chinese, and it has just been amazing to watch them, and I am just so happy ’cause I love them both a lot, and it’s just been such a joy for me to see them not as burdened as I was as a child.

(0:25:54) speaker_1: Now, here’s the interesting thing.

(0:25:55) speaker_1: Even though they are both raised in Seattle where there are a lot of Asians, it has been interesting and painful for me too to see that they still struggle with some of the things that I struggled with too.

(0:26:06) speaker_1: And so, part of me thinks no matter how educated your parents are or how much work they do, there’s some of that, really around fitting in.

(0:26:14) speaker_1: It- it’s just a struggle, around belonging.

(0:26:19) speaker_1: So it’s like you feel like you don’t fit in completely in white culture, but then you don’t fit in in Asian culture too, right? And that’s something…

(0:26:33) speaker_1: Because you were adopted, so you’re raised in a family without a lot of the traditions and the background.

(0:26:39) speaker_1: And I have run up against that a lot being married to Tom, who was raised in a traditionally Asian family, and not having been, and then marrying into that family.

(0:26:51) speaker_1: There’s just a lot that I didn’t grow up with, right? Because culturally, I’m American. I grew up American.

(0:26:57) speaker_0: Did he have similar struggles with fitting in or, and/or with you?

(0:27:01) speaker_1: Tom? No, Tom’s amazing. He is just amazing for a lot of reasons.

(0:27:05) speaker_1: But he has got to be one of the only people and probably the only Asian I know who did not, growing up, have, like, a lot of issues around self-esteem, and this is, I think, a big reason why.

(0:27:16) speaker_1: His parents did the reverse migration when Tom was 12.

(0:27:19) speaker_1: Tom’s parents had immigrated to the US before he was born, so he was born in Salt Lake, and then they had lived in some different places.

(0:27:27) speaker_1: My father-in-law was a mineral engineer, mining engineer, so the family moved around based on his jobs.

(0:27:33) speaker_1: Well, when Tom was 12, my father-in-law got a job offer from LG to come back and be a VP of something back with the business.

(0:27:41) speaker_0: So a relatively well-to-do family?

(0:27:44) speaker_1: Yeah, for… Well, at least for that period of time.

(0:27:47) speaker_1: So they moved him back to Korea, and, um, Tom basically went to high school, spent some of his formative years at Seoul Foreign.

(0:27:56) speaker_1: And so, he wasn’t like the other.

(0:27:59) speaker_1: I think being raised in Korea during those formative years, he was, you know, he was a Korean living in Korea, and that really shaped his worldview in such a positive way.

(0:28:12) speaker_1: Like, he thinks that Korean women are the most beautiful women on the face of the Earth. Like-

(0:28:17) speaker_0: We are. (laughs)

(0:28:19) speaker_1: Yes, we are. He’s certainly right there.

(0:28:21) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:28:21) speaker_1: But more importantly, he didn’t have that thing where he was like, “Oh, gosh, I wish I could change my nose or my face, or, you know, how I look to fit in.

(0:28:30) speaker_1: ” He didn’t ever have a feeling like he didn’t fit in, if that makes sense.

(0:28:33) speaker_0: Yeah, and just one little that I know about Seoul Foreign School that he also was an international Korean there.

(0:28:40) speaker_0: Most likely, other Koreans who had international experience and/or Korean families and/or other non-Korean families who were internationally living in Seoul.

(0:28:51) speaker_0:

(0:28:51) speaker_1: Exactly.

(0:28:52) speaker_0: He was probably in a very like-minded environment.

(0:28:55) speaker_1: Yeah, I, I look at the impact that I think that has had on his life.

(0:28:59) speaker_1: That was so impactful and so profound that our son is 14, about to start high school next year, and we actually asked our son, “Ethan, would you like to go to high school in Korea?

(0:29:08) speaker_1: ‘Cause we would consider moving to Korea for a period of time so that you can go to high school here,” and he doesn’t want to do that to one of his friends, but I, I think that-

(0:29:18) speaker_0: I want to do that. Will (laughs) you send me?

(0:29:20) speaker_1: Yeah, I’ll send you.

(0:29:21) speaker_0: Cool.

(0:29:21) speaker_1: I, I think the benefit of that, though, for a young person during those formative years-

(0:29:25) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:29:25) speaker_1: …

(0:29:25) speaker_1: just cannot be, just cannot be underestimated, and ’cause in my very small sort of data study, you know, my observation, that was just really such a game changer for my husband.

(0:29:35) speaker_1:

(0:29:35) speaker_0: I wonder if that experience that he had, also a lot of his formative years, he was in Utah, right? Or US?

(0:29:44) speaker_1: No, I think he moved from Utah, uh, pretty early on, so I don’t, I don’t think he was even two when he moved.

(0:29:50) speaker_1: So he was born there, but he didn’t stay there.

(0:29:53) speaker_0: But he’s not… Yeah, and he’s not Korean Korean ’cause he grew up some years, elementary years in this, uh, middle school.

(0:30:00) speaker_1: Yeah, and, and Tom was like a, a boy’s boy in that, like, he played all the sports. That’s how boys bond, right? To play sports.

(0:30:08) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:30:08) speaker_1: Yeah, he played, he played football, he played basketball. He played any sport he could find, and so-…

(0:30:15) speaker_1: he always had friends, and I think the experience for boys is different from girls, especially if you’re a boy who plays sports.

(0:30:21) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:30:22) speaker_1: And then he ended up moving back to Seoul, and that was… I mean, he had a really good time at SEUL Foreign.

(0:30:28) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:30:28) speaker_1: He’s still in touch with a lot of his friends from that time too.

(0:30:32) speaker_0: So when you started dating him, was he the first Korean American you had dated?

(0:30:37) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:30:39) speaker_0: So even I know, I’ve heard of the… I don’t know if you could say the dreaded mother-in-law. I mean, that’s kind of a trope for everyone, right?

(0:30:47) speaker_0: The dreaded mother-in-law. But I’ve always thought to myself growing up that, “Oh, I don’t think I want an Asian mother-in-law,” because they…

(0:30:55) speaker_0: you’ll be under their thumb, you know? (laughs) They will be really strict and really demanding. Um, were you afraid of that when things got serious?

(0:31:03) speaker_0: And is that just a stereotype? (laughs)

(0:31:05) speaker_1: Um, no. You know, it’s funny, I hadn’t really thought much of it, but a, a c- couple of things. My mother-in-law is passed now. She died three years ago.

(0:31:15) speaker_1: My father-in-law is still alive. He’s 92. There are few people I have more respect for than my in-laws.

(0:31:21) speaker_1: Like, if you knew what they have gone through, you know, Japanese occupation, starvation, some of the things that they did to survive.

(0:31:29) speaker_1: And both of my in-laws were from pretty wealthy families in Korea.

(0:31:33) speaker_1: And then being immigrants to this country, like, my father-in-law came over, came to Utah with literally 20 bucks in his pocket. That’s it.

(0:31:42) speaker_1: And he raised three kids, like hardest workers you’ll ever meet, and my mother-in-law was just really amazing. She… just super outgoing.

(0:31:50) speaker_1: Everybody loved her.

(0:31:51) speaker_1: So I wasn’t that afraid to meet them ’cause I think I hadn’t really thought about what that would mean, and I thought, “Oh, you know, parents like me.

(0:32:00) speaker_1: Like, this is not gonna be a problem.

(0:32:02) speaker_1: ” But I was not aware of a lot of the cultural issues that would be present, nor did I have an appreciation for, for the fact that being adopted would be a big issue.

(0:32:13) speaker_1: But when you think about it, you know, my in-laws were 70 when we met, and so they were really old school, very traditional Koreans.

(0:32:23) speaker_1: And when you think about the attitudes around adoption and what they had grown up believing in terms of the strength of the bloodline, it’s not hard to understand that because they grew up in a culture where adoption just wasn’t acceptable, they were of the perfect age.

(0:32:39) speaker_1: You know, they were 70, so that was the generation that had children and then gave them up for adoption ’cause it was just not…

(0:32:45) speaker_1: it was just so unacceptable to keep them.

(0:32:48) speaker_0: What did they think about adoptees?

(0:32:50) speaker_1: Well, I’ll tell you, my, my mother-in-law, um, was really just not very happy that I was gonna marry their only son. So Tom is the oldest son.

(0:33:01) speaker_1: I’ll say this, he’s the oldest son of the oldest son for 32 generations.

(0:33:05) speaker_0: Oh, wow. That’s a lot of pressure.

(0:33:07) speaker_1: It was a really big deal, and because he was the oldest son and he was almost 40, they really had been waiting for a long time for him to marry somebody, and it did not help that his previous girlfriend, long-term relationship, um, her mother had once been considered…

(0:33:21) speaker_1: She’s Japanese, had been considered to be as a wife for the imperial prince at the time of Japan.

(0:33:28) speaker_1: So, like, my mother-in-law was just not really very excited at all to have an orphan marrying-

(0:33:34) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:33:35) speaker_1: … their only son.

(0:33:35) speaker_0: And so even if the ex-girlfriend, her family had this, like, lineage that was, you know, very high class, but the fact that she was Japanese was okay?

(0:33:46) speaker_0:

(0:33:46) speaker_1: Yes. I, I asked about that. I was-

(0:33:48) speaker_0: Right.

(0:33:48) speaker_1: I was really shocked. Yeah, and I think because of the relationship with the royal family-

(0:33:54) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:33:54) speaker_1: … the ex-girlfriend’s family had been very close to the royal family, and so to go from that to me, I think, felt like a pretty big…

(0:34:03) speaker_1: you know, it was like, “Wow, that’s, that’s a big gap.”

(0:34:06) speaker_0: Was there kind of this fear of like, “Well, we don’t know who her-“

(0:34:09) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:34:09) speaker_0: “… Korean family is,” and-

(0:34:10) speaker_1: That’s exactly what it was, and-

(0:34:12) speaker_0: … could be disagreements or, you know?

(0:34:13) speaker_1: So it wasn’t personal ’cause they didn’t know me, but it was really like, “Oh, gosh, we don’t know who her family is. We don’t know who her…

(0:34:20) speaker_1: ” You know, who your father is and your father’s name is everything in Korea.

(0:34:24) speaker_1: A friend of mine said that even now when you apply for a job, it asks you for your father’s name.

(0:34:28) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:34:29) speaker_1: So to not have that, I think was a pretty big deal.

(0:34:35) speaker_0: That must have been kind of hurtful. I mean, when did you hear she had these kind of reservations?

(0:34:41) speaker_1: Um, I think Tom had told me early on, and so I had to do these things that I didn’t realize you had to do.

(0:34:47) speaker_1: (laughs) Like, when I first met his parents, I had to go out and buy very expensive gifts for them, and I had gotten some help.

(0:34:55) speaker_1: I have a couple of friends who are good friends of mine who are Korean American, and they are like my Korean whisperers.

(0:35:01) speaker_1: Like, they basically had told me, “Okay, here’s what you need to buy. Here’s where you need to go.

(0:35:06) speaker_1: ” The other thing is, I think that Korean culture, and this might be an overgeneralization for sure, but it seems to me that a lot of people are more brand conscious.

(0:35:14) speaker_1: You know, it’s really about appearances.

(0:35:16) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(0:35:17) speaker_1: Very appearance driven, and I am not like that at all, and so having to then think about that and the optics of everything was something that was new to me.

(0:35:24) speaker_1:

(0:35:24) speaker_0: Like the status and how things look-

(0:35:26) speaker_1: The status.

(0:35:26) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:35:27) speaker_1: Yeah, so like, when we got married, I had to buy handbags for all of my mother-in-law’s relatives, and there was a big thing about what brand they were.

(0:35:34) speaker_1:

(0:35:34) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:35:34) speaker_1: “Oh, that’s not a good enough brand.” I’m like, “Really?” Like, like a $500, $800 ba- like, that’s not…

(0:35:40) speaker_1: And then it was like, “Well, what’s the logo like?” It- there was more of that than I had really ever been kind of raised with or, or been around.

(0:35:49) speaker_1: And part of it was I grew up, I didn’t have any money. My mom was a single mom, and she was a schoolteacher.

(0:35:55) speaker_1: So I just was really unaware, and it was just not on my radar. Um, but Tom had said, “Well, you know…

(0:36:02) speaker_1: ” I don’t recall him coming to me and saying, “Oh, my mom, like, has a big issue with you.” But he had made comments.

(0:36:10) speaker_1: We kind of made a joke out of it because, you know, Tom’s very modern, so he’s like, “Oh, that’s an antiquated thought.” And here’s the funny thing.

(0:36:17) speaker_1: It never hit my radar that me being adopted would be an issue for e- a- any boyfriend’s parents…. even those who were Korean.

(0:36:26) speaker_1: I will say, the one thing I had going for me was I was a lawyer. And, you know, a lot of Koreans want their kids to be lawyers or doctors, and-

(0:36:34) speaker_0: Right.

(0:36:34) speaker_1: … my husband worked for a nonprofit his whole career, and then my two sisters-in-law are, like, artsy people. And so there are no lawyers or doctors.

(0:36:42) speaker_1: So part of the joke was, “Okay. Well, now your parents are gonna get the lawyer that they’d always wanted in the family.”

(0:36:48) speaker_0: So it was kind of a trade-off for them.

(0:36:49) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:36:49) speaker_0: Adopted, but a lawyer.

(0:36:51) speaker_1: I think that helped somewhat, but it really was the fact that, for Koreans of that generation, knowing the bloodline, I think is really important.

(0:36:59) speaker_0: How did he take it?

(0:37:00) speaker_1: Oh, pretty early on, like, he’d known before.

(0:37:01) speaker_0: Oh, ’cause your name isn’t Kim or…

(0:37:01) speaker_1: Yeah. And I think both of my friends had said that to him, like, as in, “Oh, do you know Delight? She’s a Korean American adoptee.

(0:37:01) speaker_1: ” There are lot of Korean adoptees in Seattle. And Tom had actually dated an adoptee before me.

(0:37:02) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:37:02) speaker_1: So it was, it was just, like, not a big deal for him beforehand. Mm-mm. No.

(0:37:02) speaker_0: Did you ever… Other things, like, when you’re dating and obviously now marriage, that you feel White when you are with him?

(0:37:02) speaker_0: Or in certain scenarios where it kind of does-

(0:37:02) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:37:02) speaker_0: … come out where you feel-

(0:37:02) speaker_1: More White? Um, not really.

(0:37:02) speaker_1: I think the Whitest I have felt honestly, and this might surprise your audience, is that I actually have felt Whitest when I’m with Tom’s family (laughs) because-

(0:37:02) speaker_0: Right, yeah.

(0:37:02) speaker_1: … they’re all Asian. They all, like, were raised, you know, as, in Korea as Korean Americans.

(0:37:02) speaker_0: The- some things are spoken in Korean, right? Some things.

(0:37:03) speaker_1: Yes. Some things. But you know, okay, there are just rules you have to follow.

(0:37:03) speaker_1: Like, nobody told me the rules, and so early on, it was very difficult ’cause I broke a lot of rules.

(0:37:03) speaker_1: But as I would have to tell Tom repeatedly, I didn’t get the handbook.

(0:37:04) speaker_0: Right. Well, adoptees, right. We don’t… (laughs)

(0:37:04) speaker_1: Like, I didn’t get the handbook, so he needed to tell me these things. I’ll give you an example.

(0:37:04) speaker_1: The very first time I ate with his family, it was family style.

(0:37:04) speaker_1: Well, in my family, you know, it’s just me and my brother, but I’ve got five cousins that I’m pretty close to.

(0:37:04) speaker_1: And if we were all together and food was served, it was just a free-for-all, right? You got a plate, and you just went to town.

(0:37:07) speaker_1: Well, nobody told me that in Korean culture, you get your plate, and then you wait for the oldest male to start eating first.

(0:37:15) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(0:37:18) speaker_1: Like, nobody told-

(0:37:18) speaker_0: Not only did he get served first…

(0:37:26) speaker_1: Not only did he get served first, but then you’re supposed to wait to eat. But, like, nobody told me that. So the first time we eat dinner, I’m just…

(0:37:35) speaker_1: You know, I get my plate, and I’m starting to eat, and then somebody nudged me.

(0:37:36) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:37:36) speaker_1: And I’m like, and I’m, like, looking around, like, “Oh, okay.” So the joke for a long time was, like, I didn’t get the memo.

(0:37:58) speaker_1: “Tom, you need to tell me these things.”

(0:38:15) speaker_0: Right.

(0:38:15) speaker_0: And some of it is, you know, in his defense, some of it’s so ingrained he probably doesn’t even think about it that, “Oh, not everybody knows these customs.

(0:38:17) speaker_0: “

(0:38:17) speaker_1: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, that, that’s a difference.

(0:38:19) speaker_1: You know, when you’re raised in a certain culture or in a family, things that are just, like, it’s like table stakes to you, right?

(0:38:26) speaker_1: You’re not even aware of it. You don’t think to mention them.

(0:38:26) speaker_1: Once he was aware of it, he did definitely w- went out of his way to say to me, “Okay, now when we do this, here’s going to be this.

(0:38:30) speaker_1: ” And it was really all about expectation. Here’s the expectation. And the thing about Thomas, he is not confrontational at all.

(0:38:35) speaker_1: I really had to listen to figure out, “Okay, this is what he’s telling me.

(0:38:41) speaker_1: ” He’s saying, “In this situation, here’s how I might be treated,” or, “Here’s, here’s what I should be prepared for.” We had a small…

(0:38:52) speaker_1: Well, we had a relatively small wedding. We got married in Vancouver, BC, and it was 75 people.

(0:38:57) speaker_1: And I wanted to elope, and he was like, “No, that’s not gonna be acceptable ’cause I’m the oldest son and my parents have waited all this time for me to marry.

(0:39:02) speaker_1: ” But they had wanted to invite, like, hundreds of people, like their friends and relatives, and I was like, “No, no, no.

(0:39:05) speaker_1: ” So the compromise was that we got married in Vancouver, had the wedding that the two of us really wanted, and then I agreed we went to Korea.

(0:39:07) speaker_1: Actually, this was my first time ever to Korea. We went to Korea and, like, 300 former people came to a reception.

(0:39:13) speaker_0: What? So your first time back was your wedding?

(0:39:15) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:39:15) speaker_0: Wow.

(0:39:15) speaker_1: And it was, it was-

(0:39:15) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:39:15) speaker_1: … pretty amazing. And there were some really cool things to it. Like, I don’t know who, but some relative bought me a really expensive hanbok.

(0:40:52) speaker_0: Mm.

(0:40:52) speaker_1: Beautiful. It’s, like, silk and I’m looking for a time to wear that again. There’s gotta be some occasion I can pull this out ’cause it’s beautiful.

(0:40:59) speaker_1: It’s just so, so nice.

(0:41:00) speaker_1: But yeah, there are things, like, I don’t speak any Korean, so it was basically an hour of me standing there while these little old ladies came up and they’d just, like, look at me really closely, and then they would talk about me.

(0:41:11) speaker_1: They’d look at my face, and they’d talk, and then they’d, they’d go off. And, um, it was just different. It’s, like, things that wouldn’t happen…

(0:41:19) speaker_1: It just was something I had never experienced before.

(0:41:21) speaker_0: Did you feel like an outsider at your own wedding?

(0:41:24) speaker_1: Well, there I definitely was like… But, but I knew it going in. I knew that it was gonna be speeches in Korean.

(0:41:30) speaker_1: I knew that I would mostly not understand what was gonna be happening, and I, and I was fine with that.

(0:41:35) speaker_1: I mean, it was really important to Tom’s parents, and so I was like, “All right. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll go along with this.”

(0:41:40) speaker_0: It sounds like you gave a lot… You know, you made a lot of effort to sort of ingratiate yourself into the family.

(0:41:47) speaker_0: Did things turn around with your mother-in-law or when do you think… I mean, they probably had to approve of the marriage, right?

(0:41:55) speaker_1: Well, what’s interesting is, no. I mean, I…

(0:41:58) speaker_1: Tom was old enough that he actually told them, he’s like, “Look, I’m gonna marry her, and that’s just the way it is.

(0:42:06) speaker_1: ” Which now I know was a huge deal for him-

(0:42:09) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:42:09) speaker_1: … because it’s very unusual for children-

(0:42:12) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:42:12) speaker_1: … especially for the oldest son, I think in Korean culture in general, to, to buck their parents. You know, it, it did, it definitely evolved.

(0:42:21) speaker_1: There were some really challenging times, and I think having less to do with me personally…… and just the expectation.

(0:42:28) speaker_1: When my mother-in-law got married, it was pretty harsh. And my mother-in-law was amazing.

(0:42:32) speaker_1: She went on a hunger strike when she was a young woman, because she wanted to go to college. She wanted to be a teacher.

(0:42:38) speaker_1: So, she went on a hunger strike until her father relented and she was the oldest daughter.

(0:42:43) speaker_1: Finally, he relented, was able to go to school and teach, and so she was older by Korean standards, and she and my father-in-law, I think, were in an arranged marriage.

(0:42:52) speaker_1: When she married, she basically left her family home and then moved into my father-in-law’s home. He’s one of, like, I don’t know, 15 kids.

(0:42:59) speaker_1: Basically right away took over the cooking, the cleaning, and everything else.

(0:43:04) speaker_0: Y- I mean, become a property of his…

(0:43:06) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:43:07) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:43:07) speaker_1: That was how she started her married life, right?

(0:43:10) speaker_1: And so I think the expectation was, “Oh, when Tom marries, there’s gonna be a daughter-in-law who is going to, you know-“

(0:43:17) speaker_0: Cater to me. And I’m gonna want that same benefit, right?

(0:43:20) speaker_1: Yes. And the other thing that was challenging, with like, a lot of Asians, when their parents, and at the time, Tom’s parents were living in Korea.

(0:43:28) speaker_1: When they come to visit, they would come for four to six months. So-

(0:43:32) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:43:32) speaker_1: … we were newly married, and then here were my in-laws coming to live in my house for half the year.

(0:43:38) speaker_0: Oh, that must’ve been so nerve-wracking.

(0:43:40) speaker_1: It was really, really hard.

(0:43:41) speaker_1: But really, it was mostly hard because my mother-in-law didn’t speak super great English, so there was that issue too, in terms of just communication.

(0:43:51) speaker_1: But you know what? We did bond over food ’cause we both liked to eat, and it’s pretty funny ’cause my husband is a better cook than I am.

(0:43:58) speaker_1: And I like to cook, but she’s used to say to me, “Oh, women’s hands make better food.

(0:44:03) speaker_1: ” Like if men were cooking, the food would not be as good or it would ruin the food.

(0:44:07) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:44:08) speaker_1: So, she was an amazing cook, and luckily, she taught me to make a couple of things.

(0:44:12) speaker_1: I just, I, I regret to this day that we didn’t have her write down all of her recipes and put them in some book.

(0:44:18) speaker_0: But I think that’s the Korean way too, right? It’s just by, by hand.

(0:44:22) speaker_1: Oh, it’s by hand, and when she was first teaching me, she’d be like, “And then you put this…” I go, “Well, how much of that is there?

(0:44:28) speaker_1: ” “Well, you know, just enough.” I was like, “Well, h- like, how much is…” Like, there was no, you know, just enough.

(0:44:34) speaker_0: Just the measurements. Yeah. Right.

(0:44:36) speaker_1: So, it did definitely improve. But it, it was hard.

(0:44:39) speaker_1: I think another thing that’s hard, if you’re an adoptee and you marry into a Korean family, you look like they do.

(0:44:45) speaker_1: So it’s really hard for them to remember that you’re not…

(0:44:48) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:44:48) speaker_1: That you’re not culturally Korean. That you are human American. And I was older. And the other thing that was hard for her too was that I do have a career.

(0:44:56) speaker_1:

(0:44:56) speaker_0: You had your own money.

(0:44:57) speaker_1: I had my own money. I had a house. I had a whole le- I had friends. I had this whole life, this full life of independence before I met Tom.

(0:45:04) speaker_1: So when we married, it was really a partnership.

(0:45:07) speaker_1: And I think from my mother-in-law, there was expectation that any wife of a Korean man would be doing all the cooking, the cleaning, and the laundry.

(0:45:15) speaker_1: But my mother-in-law was truly lovely and I think she really wanted to have a close relationship with me.

(0:45:21) speaker_1: You know, she used to give me gifts, and then she once told me that she watched K-dramas to figure out how it is with daughter-in-laws, which I thought was really charming.

(0:45:29) speaker_1: So, I do, I really think that she had wanted us to be close. And then I had my son 14 years ago, and boy, that was like I hung the moon because now…

(0:45:39) speaker_1:

(0:45:39) speaker_0: You had a son, right?

(0:45:40) speaker_1: The oldest son of the oldest son now lives on for the 33rd generation. (laughs)

(0:45:43) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:45:45) speaker_1: And she just was the most amazing grandmother. I mean, she, she really was. And, and my mother-in-law was like super generous, very giving, very thoughtful.

(0:45:53) speaker_1: Just a really, a really kind human being. You know, I just think the expectation of who her son would marry…

(0:46:00) speaker_1: And then too, I think it might’ve been easier for me if I’d been Caucasian because at least she wouldn’t look at me and think, “Oh, that’s a Korean person.

(0:46:09) speaker_1: She should know all these things.”

(0:46:11) speaker_0: You know, that’s, that’s the thing, right? I noticed when I lived in Korea, that if you’re white, you basically get a white pass, you know? You can…

(0:46:20) speaker_0:

(0:46:20) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:46:21) speaker_0: You can butcher the language. You can, you know, ignore all social laws and cultural norms and- (laughs)

(0:46:28) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:46:28) speaker_0: … do what you want, and you basically get a pass. Like, oh, they’re, you know.

(0:46:32) speaker_0: I know there’s a double-edged sword because then some people feel like, um, they’re never taken seriously.

(0:46:37) speaker_0: But on the other hand, you know, having a Korean face and being Korean, that there’s these expectations still, even if they know you’re adopted, that you’ll do things correctly.

(0:46:46) speaker_0: And if you don’t, there’s like wrath.

(0:46:47) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:46:48) speaker_0: Because they’ll upset the laws of, you know, gravity or something. (laughs)

(0:46:52) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah.

(0:46:53) speaker_1: And I will say too, much to my in-laws’ credit, my father had worked in the business world for a long time, so he really understood what it was like to work in different cultures.

(0:47:01) speaker_1: And he’d worked in America for a long time.

(0:47:04) speaker_1: So, he understood some of the subtleties and the differences and could really work i- in different cultures and environments just fine.

(0:47:12) speaker_1: And I will say, to my mother-in-law’s credit, I think she recognized that the world was changing and evolving, but I think for anybody who was older, I- it’s a hard thing, right?

(0:47:22) speaker_1: Like, I think about every older generation.

(0:47:25) speaker_1: Some of the changes that come are foreign and a little inexplicable to them, and I think for my mother-in-law, just like everybody else, there was some of that.

(0:47:35) speaker_1: But I do feel like she was like, “Well, this is just the way of, you know, times have changed, and this is just how it is now.

(0:47:42) speaker_1: ” I think she definitely became more accepting over time. I think too when she figured out I was gonna be sticking around for a while too.

(0:47:50) speaker_1: But, um, it helped.

(0:47:52) speaker_0: I think that alone, that alone probably showed her that times are changing when her eldest son, name bearer, carrying on the family line, is, is going to marry who he wants.

(0:48:02) speaker_0:

(0:48:02) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah, and, and you know, there’s some other funny stories too.

(0:48:05) speaker_1: Like, you know, my in-laws are very traditional, so when they found out we were having a boy, they, ’cause in traditional Korean families, the grandparents get to name the child.

(0:48:13) speaker_1: So they sent us an envelope. We get this thing in the mail one day and it’s like, “Oh, here, here’s going to be your son’s name.

(0:48:19) speaker_1: ” And we were both like, “Oh, I don’t think so.” Like… (laughs)

(0:48:23) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:48:23) speaker_1: Like that’s not how it, how it’s going to be. And they were trying to be helpful, I think, and it’s just the way it had traditionally been done, you know?

(0:48:31) speaker_1: It’s the oldest son’s first son. That’s just something that was done. But they were great. Like they’d never challenge us. They were like, “Oh, okay.

(0:48:37) speaker_1: ” You know?

(0:48:38) speaker_0: You just… How did you let them know it, it wasn’t gonna be that way?

(0:48:42) speaker_1: Well, like I said, my husband’s not really confrontational, especially with his parents.

(0:48:45) speaker_1: It’s not like we called them up and was like, “Oh, just so you know, that’s not gonna be his name.” We got it.

(0:48:50) speaker_1: I don’t think we really said anything about it, and then I think at some point, before Ethan was born, we had said, “Yeah, you know, I don’t think we’re gonna go with that.

(0:48:58) speaker_1: We’re gonna go with something else.” But Ethan has a Korean… He has an, a American middle name, and he has a Korean middle name that we picked.

(0:49:05) speaker_1: I mean, most importantly, he’s got my husband’s last name. And to be honest with you, they were just thrilled that they were having a…

(0:49:12) speaker_1: Ethan’s their third grandchild and last grandchild, so I think they were just over the moon to be having another grandchild, and that the oldest son was gonna have a son.

(0:49:20) speaker_1:

(0:49:20) speaker_0: Do you think, you know, with your mother-in-law, do you think she accepted you?

(0:49:26) speaker_1: I do. Yeah. I, I do.

(0:49:29) speaker_0: Can you remember when that happened?

(0:49:31) speaker_1: No. I think it just came over time. I mean, first of all, we’ve been married for 14 years, so we started our family just a few years after we were married.

(0:49:37) speaker_1: Our son’s 14 now. You know, it was just the beginning that was a little bit hard.

(0:49:42) speaker_1: Um, especially after we had Ethan, I think she was like, “Okay, this is Tom’s family now.

(0:49:48) speaker_1: ” And then I became not the wife of her son but the mother of her grandson. You know what I mean? So it was a different… It was a different kind of thing.

(0:49:56) speaker_1:

(0:49:56) speaker_0: It’s always through the men, your relationship to the men.

(0:49:58) speaker_1: Yeah, my relationship to the men.

(0:49:59) speaker_0: That’s very Asian, Korean.

(0:50:01) speaker_1: Yeah. And the funny thing is, I, I think a lot of American mother-in-laws, like, it’s…

(0:50:05) speaker_1: I don’t think racial culture has anything to do with it, but, you know, she’s very spoiling of all the grandchildren.

(0:50:12) speaker_1: And, um, I laugh because my son’s first experience with a Haagen-Dazs bar, he wasn’t even two.

(0:50:17) speaker_1: We came back from somewhere, and my kid’s, like, chowing down on one of those big full-sized Haagen-Dazs bars. (laughs) And he… I was like, “Oh, my gosh.

(0:50:25) speaker_1: That’s a lot of ice cream and sugar for a little kid.” And my mother-in-law was just like, “Oh,” you know, “I’m the grandma.”

(0:50:30) speaker_0: Maybe that’s universal.

(0:50:32) speaker_1: It’s totally universal. I’ve heard that story time and time again.

(0:50:36) speaker_1: So yeah, I’m really very quite sad that she’s gone, and, um, and the hard thing was she died right after…

(0:50:42) speaker_1: just as things were opening up for COVID, and we were gonna go visit the next month. So we hadn’t seen them in… What was that? A travel ban. Two years?

(0:50:51) speaker_1: Three years? I can’t remember now. But I do miss her. She was super outgoing, and, and she always just wanted to make things better for people.

(0:50:59) speaker_1: This is the thing, too.

(0:51:00) speaker_1: My mother-in-law, e- every piece of advice she gave me or things that she had thought I should be doing, they were truly sincerely to make my life better and her son’s life better.

(0:51:11) speaker_1: That was the motivation.

(0:51:13) speaker_0: Was that maybe how she showed love or affections is by being kind of strict or having… setting these expectations?

(0:51:21) speaker_1: I think that for her, showing love… You know, for a lot of older Korean people that generation, they weren’t saying, “I love you.

(0:51:27) speaker_1: ” They were doing things for you, right? So they were trying to help you. And I think part of it was cultural, but part of it was a generational issue.

(0:51:36) speaker_1: It’s like, you know, when you’re 35, almost 40, like, you don’t really need help.

(0:51:40) speaker_1: You’ve got a lot of your life sort of figured out in terms of how to just subsist from a day-to-day.

(0:51:45) speaker_1: But, you know, the thing she really showed her love through cooking, and I was always so touched ’cause my in-laws ended up moving to California, uh, I don’t know how soon after we were married, but they’d lived in California for a while.

(0:51:58) speaker_1: And sometimes Tom would go and visit without me, and my mother-in-law, without fail, would send home a huge thing of kimbap or my favorite things.

(0:52:08) speaker_1: And when she would come to visit, if I had a early meeting or I had to leave early, she would get up early to make whatever my favorite dish was and then pack it up for me to take to work.

(0:52:17) speaker_1:

(0:52:18) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:52:19) speaker_1: So I think food was love for her.

(0:52:22) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:52:22) speaker_1: And, and I luckily was mature enough and old enough to understand that.

(0:52:26) speaker_0: (instrumental music) Did you ever think of her as, like, a proxy for your Korean mom?

(0:52:38) speaker_1: No, not really. Um, I didn’t. And you know what part of it is?

(0:52:42) speaker_1: Is part of it is I didn’t really think about my Korean mom or think about finding a Korean mom for a really long time.

(0:52:49) speaker_1: And I’ll tell you the first time that it really sort of hit me and hit me, like, over the head, was after I had Ethan. And I…

(0:52:56) speaker_1: After he was born, I was still in the hospital, and I remember just thinking, “Oh, my God.

(0:53:01) speaker_1: If I ever had to give him up, like, I would at least want to know he was okay.” So at that-

(0:53:08) speaker_0: Or even that… I’ve heard people say, like, they can’t… When they’re holding their child at the age that they were given up, that they can’t imagine.

(0:53:17) speaker_0:

(0:53:17) speaker_1: Oh, I can’t… No, and that’s the other thing I thought, too. I thought, “There’s no way I would be strong enough to let this baby go.

(0:53:23) speaker_1: ” Like, you know, I don’t know if you remember, but during Sarajevo, there were some really moving pictures of women holding their toddlers and their babies out for soldiers to t- There was, like, one last bus out, and you saw women just trying to catapult their children onto the bus.

(0:53:39) speaker_1:

(0:53:40) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(0:53:41) speaker_1: Try- trying to find people to take, take their kids.

(0:53:43) speaker_0: Take their kids.

(0:53:43) speaker_1: And I just thought to myself, “Oh my God. If I were in that situation, would I have the courage and the faith and the selflessness to do that?

(0:53:53) speaker_1: ” ‘Cause I do think, I, I… and I truly think this, that for somebody to have given up a child, it is an act of desperation and selflessness, you know?

(0:54:02) speaker_1: And, and I should say, too, my career experiences have also shaped my, my feelings about this because early in my career, I did child abuse and neglect prosecution, and so my cases involved kids who had been severely abused and neglected, and then I would go in and terminate the rights for the most severe cases.

(0:54:21) speaker_1: And so what I saw were a lot of children who were in situations where it would’ve been a mercy to have had them adopted out, you know, if those parents had given those children up for adoption.

(0:54:34) speaker_1: So when I had Ethan, yes, I, I thought, “Oh, I can’t imagine how desperate…” and, “I’m not sure I could… what I would do in that moment.

(0:54:41) speaker_1: ” But I also thought, “Gosh, maybe I should try to find my biological mother just so I can let her know I’m okay.”

(0:54:51) speaker_0: That’s really…

(0:54:52) speaker_0: I, I, I’m just really struck by the fact that in, in your line of work, that you actually saw, and this is maybe before you were, um, hearing about or learning about counter-narratives, but you actually saw where adoption was in the best interest of a child, or it was a safer environment for the child, or, uh, w- what have you, better environment.

(0:55:16) speaker_0:

(0:55:16) speaker_1: Yeah. You know, it’s really interesting, ’cause I didn’t really think about this until we’re talking now, but I went to law school to be a child advocate.

(0:55:22) speaker_1: M- my mom was a teacher for a school in a really poor part of town, and she was more than a teacher.

(0:55:27) speaker_1: She was like a teacher, a social worker, a mentor, a mom. She held all those roles.

(0:55:32) speaker_1: And when I went to law school, I was like, “Oh, wow, I really want to do something on behalf of kids. I want to basically work on behalf of children.

(0:55:40) speaker_1: ” And so even starting in law school, I had worked for, um, the attorney general’s office then in Utah doing some of the same work that I then went on to do in Washington.

(0:55:50) speaker_1: After I graduated from law school, I clerked for a family court judge, and so my interest in children and children’s welfare and trying to make things better, the one thing that really drove me for that was, like, I wanna be a voice for those that have no voice.

(0:56:05) speaker_1: I knew I wanted to be an advocate for… And there’s nobody more vulnerable than a child, and I say this now. It’s true.

(0:56:12) speaker_1: It’s like, we as a society, we care about kids if we know them, and we love them, but we as a society don’t care about, quote, “kids,” quote, that aren’t ours.

(0:56:21) speaker_1: You know, if you look at the child poverty rate in this country, if you look at the violence, if you, if you look at the hunger, like, th- we c- we cannot say that we are a society that cares about kids.

(0:56:33) speaker_1: And so I had wanted to go and do something to try to make that better.

(0:56:36) speaker_0: Oh, okay. Okay. When did you start…

(0:56:39) speaker_0: I mean, I’ve seen you now at a few adoption fly-ins and (laughs) around the country that happen, conferences and what have you.

(0:56:48) speaker_0: When did you start becoming interested in, you said about five years ago? In, in your adoptee self?

(0:56:56) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, a- and part of it has been a function of just time and energy.

(0:57:01) speaker_1: I’m a working mom, and there’s just not been a lot of mental space with having a toddler or small child to really think about anything except the day before you.

(0:57:10) speaker_1: But a weird thing happened, and that is the, um, the gathering in Seoul last summer. Was that only last summer? Yes. Last summer.

(0:57:19) speaker_0: Summer, yeah.

(0:57:20) speaker_1: I started hearing about that.

(0:57:22) speaker_0: That’s where I met you, right?

(0:57:24) speaker_1: That’s where we met, yeah.

(0:57:25) speaker_0: Oh.

(0:57:25) speaker_1: And I really wanted to go. Like, I had never been to a gathering.

(0:57:28) speaker_1: My, my brother, so my brother is 18 months younger, and he’s been far more involved in the adoptive community than I’ve ever been.

(0:57:35) speaker_1: Like, whenever he’s moved, he’s found the adoptive, Korean adoptees and th- like, those have become his people.

(0:57:40) speaker_1: So he’d been to, like, two or three of these, and I just was never interested, and then I had a really strong desire.

(0:57:48) speaker_1: I think it was maybe I’d found out about, like, I don’t know, seven or eight months before it happened, and I told my husband, I said, “Oh.

(0:57:54) speaker_1: ” I said, “You know what?” I said, “I really wanna go to this conference.” I go, “I don’t know why.”

(0:57:59) speaker_0: Was he kinda surprised? Like, why?

(0:58:00) speaker_1: I, I think he was.

(0:58:01) speaker_1: I mean, but he’s a super chill, go-with-the-flow kind of a person, and he’s always been super supportive of any place that my adoption has taken me.

(0:58:09) speaker_1: When I went to Korea the very first time, when I got married there, the reception, we went to Holt.

(0:58:15) speaker_1: That was my first visit to Holt, and he, and he came with me.

(0:58:18) speaker_0: A- at your wedding?

(0:58:20) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah. So we’d gone for the wedding. Then we stayed for, I can’t remember, another week or two.

(0:58:24) speaker_1: And I had really wanted to go to Holt, so I made an appointment, had gone to Holt to look at my file.

(0:58:28) speaker_1: And so Thomas just been like, “Okay, you know, whatever you wanna do, I’m happy to support you.

(0:58:33) speaker_1: ” And here’s the, here’s another big advantage (laughs) if you’re gonna marry a Korean American. They love going to Korea. So-

(0:58:39) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(0:58:40) speaker_1: … anytime I’m like, “Let’s go to Korea. Let’s put our vacation budget and our time going to Korea,” it’s never a debate. It’s like, “All right.

(0:58:47) speaker_1: That sounds great. Let’s go. When should we go?” And so when I had said to him, “Oh, I really wanna go to this conference,” he was like, “Okay.

(0:58:55) speaker_1: ” But for me it was weird, ’cause I just for the very first time had had this really strong desire, like, “Oh, I really wanna go.

(0:59:01) speaker_1: ” And it was so great for me, ’cause I learned a lot that I just had no…

(0:59:05) speaker_1: It wasn’t even on my radar, and it was really important for me to know, ’cause it was the truth or closer to the truth than, than a lot of what I had learned.

(0:59:13) speaker_1: But, you know, going to those, it’s funny, ’cause I don’t really feel like I fit in.

(0:59:17) speaker_1: So it’s a little bit of a hard thing for me, and I think maybe it’s ’cause it was clear to me, oh, like, a lot of these people have known each other for a long time.

(0:59:23) speaker_1: They’ve been friends for a long time. Like, they got together-

(0:59:25) speaker_0: That’s true. That’s true.

(0:59:26) speaker_1: … they got together years ago. So I do feel like a little bit of a, a newcomer.

(0:59:31) speaker_1: The other thing that I found really hard, um, especially with the conference in Chicago. I have found that I just physically cannot take, like…

(0:59:41) speaker_1: It’s just almost too much for me to process. O- o- once I’ve had enou- like, I’m like, “Oh, my God. I just cannot. I, I, I can’t talk about this anymore.

(0:59:49) speaker_1: I can’t just be in this environment anymore.”

(0:59:51) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:59:51) speaker_1: It’s really hard for me.

(0:59:52) speaker_0: They really pack in, sometimes, the, the da- and especially that conference was very, um, you know, very scholarly.

(0:59:59) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:59:59) speaker_0: And so you got some people who were presenting research and books and, and so it can be really academic too, and it’s…

(1:00:08) speaker_1: Yeah. That might have been what it was. It’s like, “Oh, my God. This is just too… This is just too much for me.

(1:00:14) speaker_1: ” Uh, you know, whereas at least with the gathering, it’s like, there were fun things and art. I was really impressed at how much art and how creative…

(1:00:23) speaker_1: Like, I don’t have any statistics, but I would bet the adoptee community, I bet the percentage of artists is far higher than that of the general population.

(1:00:31) speaker_1: It seems to be a way a lot of people are working through, have worked through a lot of their feelings and some of their issues around adoption.

(1:00:37) speaker_0: It’s really interesting to hear your perspective, and I think it’s probably right on.

(1:00:41) speaker_0: You know, when you’re coming into the community later in life, I mean, I was in my mid-40s, so I mean, I’m right there with you too, that people have known each other for many years and have those relationships, and, and a lot of times when there’s these fly-in events, you know, I don’t really……

(1:01:00) speaker_0: blame folks for wanting to…

(1:01:01) speaker_0: They have a limited amount of time, they haven’t seen these people in many years or, you know, in a long time, and so they wanna hang out together kind of alone, and it’s, sometimes it’s very hard to make time for new people.

(1:01:13) speaker_0:

(1:01:13) speaker_1: Yes, exactly. That is exactly the feeling that I got. I was like, “Oh, people all already have their friends.

(1:01:20) speaker_1: ” And so, yes, yes, I certainly felt like that.

(1:01:24) speaker_0: And so did you go alone? When you went to IKAA, were you alone or did Tom go with you?

(1:01:29) speaker_1: Tom and Ethan came with me.

(1:01:31) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:01:31) speaker_1: But they didn’t come to any-

(1:01:33) speaker_0: Right.

(1:01:33) speaker_1: … of the events.

(1:01:34) speaker_1: And, um, oh, they, they did come, because I had given a presentation, um, around privacy and DNA testing, and so both of them came to that just for support, which I thought was very sweet.

(1:01:48) speaker_1: But they’re great.

(1:01:49) speaker_1: I think they would come if, if they thought it was important to me, but in some ways, I just feel like that journey is one you have to take on your own.

(1:01:59) speaker_1:

(1:02:00) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:02:01) speaker_1: You know? And so it’s not like I was like, “Oh, Tom, I need you to come with me.”

(1:02:05) speaker_0: Did it feel like it was two worlds? You went into one world and then back into your other world? (laughs)

(1:02:12) speaker_1: A little bit. Yeah, there was some of that. I mean, it still is mind-boggling to me, right?

(1:02:16) speaker_1: You go to that conference, and it’s like, “Oh my God, there are all these people,” especially when they did the breakout of people who were the same age, I was just struck by how similar our experiences were, even though we had been raised in completely different countries and cultures.

(1:02:30) speaker_1: I was like, “Oh my God, this is truly a universal experience.

(1:02:34) speaker_1: ” So for me, it was kind of mind-blowing to be literally in a room, or multiple rooms of people, who had very similar experiences, and then to walk 10 minutes to my hotel and it’s like, “Wow, now I’m in a totally different world.

(1:02:48) speaker_1: ” But I think for adoptees, we are really adept at maneuvering and stepping between all those worlds, stepping in and out.

(1:02:57) speaker_0: Yeah, for sure. I, I kinda wonder if maybe the next iterations, you know, as we’re all, we’re getting older, is if-

(1:03:06) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:03:06) speaker_0: … the fly-ins are 45 plus (laughs) adoptee meetups. You know, it’s by age group, because I don’t know-

(1:03:14) speaker_1: I don’t know.

(1:03:14) speaker_0: … I feel like I would enjoy… I mean, people by far really love the breakout sessions, because-

(1:03:21) speaker_1: That’s a really good idea, yeah.

(1:03:22) speaker_0: It’s the same peer group and age, and people are, you know, grew up in the same generations, and so are dealing with, you know, have had similar experiences, and, you know, just maybe spending more time with people (laughs) that are…

(1:03:37) speaker_0:

(1:03:37) speaker_1: Of the same age.

(1:03:38) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:03:38) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:03:39) speaker_1: Oh, you know, that’s really interesting, ’cause obviously with the generation gap, like, adoptees in their 30s had a totally different experience than we did.

(1:03:47) speaker_1:

(1:03:47) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:03:48) speaker_1: You know?

(1:03:48) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:03:49) speaker_1: And, and adoptees in their 20s, oh my God, like they hit the jackpot.

(1:03:53) speaker_0: When we talk about the scarcity, we’re the only ones, or the only, you know-

(1:03:56) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:03:57) speaker_0: … and that we didn’t see Asian people on TV, or in-

(1:04:01) speaker_1: No.

(1:04:01) speaker_0: … Target ads or anything.

(1:04:02) speaker_1: No.

(1:04:02) speaker_0: You know, it’s like we didn’t see ourselves anywhere. That’s a concept where younger people today maybe just-

(1:04:08) speaker_1: No, they don’t… They don’t under-

(1:04:10) speaker_0: They don’t get it. They can hear it. Oh, yeah. Okay. It was-

(1:04:12) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean-

(1:04:13) speaker_0: It really was a different time.

(1:04:16) speaker_1: I remember the first time I went to Korea, I was standing in the line, and we took Korean Airlines, and I had to call my friend Michelle, and she laughs to this day.

(1:04:24) speaker_1: I called her, I was like, “Oh my God, Michelle, I’m in this line and everybody’s Korean. I’ve never seen this in my entire life.” And-

(1:04:32) speaker_0: How did that make you feel?

(1:04:33) speaker_1: And it was crazy. I mean, I was really, I just was kind of in disbelief.

(1:04:37) speaker_1: And then, and then we get to Korea, and my mother-in-law takes me to get my hair cut.

(1:04:41) speaker_1: And I’m waiting for my turn, and I pick up the magazine, and I’ll tell you what, it was mind-blowing, because there were ads of people who looked just like me that were, like, buying refrigerators, they were buying, like, laundry soap.

(1:04:55) speaker_1: So, to your point, like, just seeing Koreans or Asians doing normal things-

(1:05:00) speaker_0: Right.

(1:05:01) speaker_1: … was completely… I just could not believe it, you know? I, I mean, it was one of the most shocking… I was like, “Holy cow, it’s, like, so fantastic.

(1:05:11) speaker_1: ” These are just, like, you can just, like, normal people having just, living life.

(1:05:14) speaker_0: I think for me, it kind of hit home too when, this must have been, yeah, when I was living in Korea, I suppose, that, you know, you go to a jjimjilbang, one of the Korean bathhouses, and there you see naked women of all ages, and you see their body shapes, and you see, like, grandmother, older women, you know, women in their 80s that have a body like yours, but you could imagine, you know, it’s a little more saggy, it’s, you know, older body.

(1:05:44) speaker_0: And I just marveled at it, because as an adoptee and growing up in a white household and around white people mostly, like, I never saw, you know?

(1:05:56) speaker_1: You never saw that.

(1:05:58) speaker_0: Right, other older, you know, Asian, much l- less Korean-

(1:06:03) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:06:03) speaker_0: … bodies, people.

(1:06:05) speaker_1: I, I, yes, I, you know, I, I was in Vancouver, BC, it must have been maybe three years ago, and I take a picture…

(1:06:12) speaker_1: I was blown away because I was in a bookstore, and all the major magazine covers had an Asian model on it. How… And I-

(1:06:21) speaker_0: Oh, wow.

(1:06:21) speaker_1: I immediately took a picture, and I texted the mothers of my two adoptee friends, and I was like, “Oh my God, I would have killed to have seen this when I was growing up as a kid.

(1:06:29) speaker_1: ” You know? Because not only were you not considered attractive, you were just, like, you just, you know, you weren’t anywhere.

(1:06:39) speaker_1: Like, you were in M*A*S*H, like, everything I knew about Korea was from M*A*S*H. Remember that TV show?

(1:06:44) speaker_0: Mm, mm-hmm.

(1:06:45) speaker_1: And… ‘Cause there just was no, there was just no representation.

(1:06:49) speaker_1: And so I just love that, like, now, there are all these movies, and there are models-

(1:06:54) speaker_0: Well, it’s a, it’s a show based in Korea centered on white people, so-

(1:06:57) speaker_1: Ex- exactly, and, and the Koreans are like-

(1:07:00) speaker_0: … that’s

(1:07:00) speaker_3: Adopted in a nutshell.

(1:07:01) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah, e- exactly. The other thing I’ll say is the, the whole question around, like-… getting involved in the Korean community and adoption.

(1:07:10) speaker_1: I will say, an unexpected benefit for me of having married a Korean American is, like, I wonder if…

(1:07:19) speaker_1: I mean, because Thomas is so proud to be Korean, and like, culturally, uh, I just wonder if I had married…

(1:07:26) speaker_1: So I think being married to him has made it easier for me to be curious, has actually just made me more curious about my own background, about wanting to learn more about my culture.

(1:07:36) speaker_1: I, sometimes I think, “Gosh, if I’d married somebody who was Caucasian, would I be as invested or would I be as curious?

(1:07:43) speaker_1: ” Especially, if I then had a child who was half white, who looked more white than Asian, ’cause I- I know people who have that scenario, and they just sort of, their Asianness just sort of isn’t really…

(1:07:54) speaker_1: It’s just not something that’s kind of at the forefront of their lives.

(1:07:58) speaker_0: Not something that’s maybe, uh, forefront or maybe not that proud of, or it’s not that important?

(1:08:06) speaker_1: Well, I think, here’s the thing.

(1:08:08) speaker_1: I think that if you are a Korean or an Asian, an Asian woman, and you marry somebody who’s white and then you have a child, and if that child, especially if they have a lot more sort of Caucasian-looking features, I think that the fact of your Asianness becomes more buried.

(1:08:27) speaker_1:

(1:08:28) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(1:08:28) speaker_1: And if you’re in a family of three or four, you’re gonna be the minority person out as the only Asian and as the adoptee.

(1:08:35) speaker_0: Right. And I- I also wonder if like… Do you know Youngmi Mayor? She’s a podcaster, mixed race.

(1:08:41) speaker_1: No.

(1:08:42) speaker_0: I think her dad was white. And- and so you do see kids of mixed race who look more white, um-

(1:08:51) speaker_1: Yes.

(1:08:51) speaker_0: … or who can pass for white, that sometimes they’re a little bit more militant in their Asian identity.

(1:08:59) speaker_1: Oh, really? That’s pretty interesting. Militant like, “Oh, I really am Asian even though I might not look it”?

(1:09:07) speaker_0: Yes.

(1:09:07) speaker_1: Oh.

(1:09:07) speaker_0: Like, because people don’t identify them as Asian, but they identify as Asian and they have to work harder at it.

(1:09:15) speaker_1: That’s… That is very interesting, ’cause I can see it going both ways, right?

(1:09:19) speaker_1: Either you’re like, “Oh, I’m super proud of it,” or like, “That’s just too much. I’m just gonna, you know, be- be white.” Oh, that’s really interesting.

(1:09:28) speaker_1:

(1:09:29) speaker_0: Do you… I would check her out.

(1:09:31) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:09:31) speaker_0: Do you, um… So Ethan’s a teenager, right?

(1:09:34) speaker_1: Yes, he’s 14.

(1:09:36) speaker_0: Has he talked about or shown any interest in having you search or wanting to know his… You know, finding Korean relatives as being…

(1:09:46) speaker_0: You know, I don’t know if he thinks of himself as someone impacted by adoption.

(1:09:52) speaker_1: I don’t think he really does. I mean, part of it is, you know, he’s a teenager.

(1:09:57) speaker_0: Right.

(1:09:57) speaker_1: And look, the teenagers are just all about themselves.

(1:10:00) speaker_0: Right. We were in our 40s before we… (laughs)

(1:10:03) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah. But I- I am very open with him, and I’ll talk about things that make me sad or things that I wonder about.

(1:10:09) speaker_1: And I’ve told him, I’m like, “Oh, you know, if I had to give you up, that would be the worst thing, and it’d be devastating in itself for my mom, you know, my biological mother, to do that.

(1:10:20) speaker_1: ” So we talk about it a lot. And I went back to Holt four or five years ago, so I’ve been twice, and I took him with me.

(1:10:27) speaker_1: So I took him and Tom both with me. And I- and I had wanted to… It was very important for me for Ethan to go with me to Holt.

(1:10:33) speaker_0: Oh, wow. Okay.

(1:10:34) speaker_1: Just because it is part of my story, you know? And I just want him to know.

(1:10:38) speaker_1: The other really great thing about living in Seattle and in this time, it’s like his best friend is adopted. She’s Caucasian. She’s got two, two moms.

(1:10:47) speaker_1: But adoption is just totally normalized for him. So he knows that your family, families are made by who you love, not necessarily by a bloodline.

(1:10:57) speaker_1: And that’s really important to me too.

(1:11:00) speaker_1: Like, I never want him to think that, you know, the rest of our family, like my cousins and my uncle, who I’m very close to, are like not my, quote, “real family.

(1:11:10) speaker_1: “

(1:11:10) speaker_0: And is he close to your brother, who’s Korean?

(1:11:14) speaker_1: Yes. Yeah. He’s- he’s very close to my brother. So… And, you know, it’s fantastic. Ethan has a… He’s pretty proud of being Korean.

(1:11:23) speaker_1: He’s got like a little Korean flag that he had hung up in his room for a while. He loves going to Korea. It’s his favorite thing.

(1:11:31) speaker_1: And so, um, uh, it’s just, just something. He loves Korean food. It’s his favorite food.

(1:11:37) speaker_1: So like, all of the things that I was embarrassed about when I was a kid or, you know, didn’t have any knowledge of, it just makes me really happy that he does not, has not seemed to internalize.

(1:11:50) speaker_1: He just has, has been raised in a different way and has a much healthier outlook.

(1:11:54) speaker_0: His Koreanness is just in the air he breathes too, you know?

(1:11:58) speaker_0: Not like where something like we, as adoptees, I feel like we have to either teach ourselves or have it be taught to us or…

(1:12:07) speaker_1: Yes, he doesn’t have to go seek it out as much ’cause it’s just who we are. And Tom and I have a lot of friends who are Korean American, so he…

(1:12:15) speaker_1: It’s just part of our community. So he sees people, you know, and Korean food.

(1:12:19) speaker_1: It’s like if- if you go to somebody, one of our friends’ houses for dinner, there’s a pretty good chance we’re gonna have Korean food.

(1:12:26) speaker_1: Or like if our friends want to go out, it’s a pretty good chance they’re gonna wanna go eat Korean food.

(1:12:31) speaker_1: So it’s not like we have to go out of our way to be like, “Oh, this is a special Korean, you know, Korean thing, and let’s do that.

(1:12:38) speaker_1: ” I mean, the nice thing is like at Chuseok and some of the holidays, the Korean holidays, like, we don’t really celebrate them, but we do make it a point and have always made it a point to call my in-laws and wish them a happy whatever the holiday is.

(1:12:51) speaker_1: So Ethan, you know, Ethan is aware of that. It’s just a different time. And living in Seattle where there are so many Asians is just fantastic.

(1:12:59) speaker_1: And actually, when I left Utah, I knew I wanted to go to one of the two Washingtons, and I wanted to do that because I wanted to go someplace where there were going to be more Asians.

(1:13:08) speaker_1:

(1:13:08) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:13:08) speaker_1: … I didn’t ever want to be, like-

(1:13:10) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:13:11) speaker_1: And I didn’t like California, but I was like, “Oh, I want to go someplace where I’m not gonna be stared at anymore.” You know?

(1:13:18) speaker_0: Well, it sounds like Seattle’s been great for that.

(1:13:21) speaker_1: Oh, Seattle, yeah. I’ve lived here now for almost 30 years and it’s, it’s a pretty… Yeah, it’s great.

(1:13:27) speaker_1: Although, it does pain me that as progressive as Seattle is, and as many Asians as there are, there’s still a fair amount of…

(1:13:34) speaker_1: We do still have incidents around Asian hate and stuff still ha- Like, my son was actually bullied for being Korean at one of the schools, for being Asian.

(1:13:42) speaker_1: So, I just think that some of that just is inescapable.

(1:13:47) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Well, Delight, I think we’re gonna have to wrap up, but I would love to hang out with you more.

(1:13:54) speaker_0: So let’s definitely plan something, sometime in the next… You know, to definitely, like, spend more time, in… Instead of, like, a quick, you know?

(1:14:01) speaker_0: (laughs) Quick meal on the-

(1:14:03) speaker_1: Yes.

(1:14:04) speaker_0: … But, you know, I definitely would like to-

(1:14:06) speaker_1: Uh, yeah.

(1:14:07) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:14:07) speaker_1: I would love that too. And you know what? I love your idea about something for adoptees of a certain age.

(1:14:13) speaker_1: You know, there was some person, she had done some tour to Korea for adoptees who were, like, over 50. Did, did you hear about that?

(1:14:21) speaker_0: No, but I wouldn’t be surprised if… Yeah.

(1:14:25) speaker_1: And I don’t remember who did that. I mean, to be honest with you, like, that’s not really my, my thing. Uh, traveling with people I don’t know.

(1:14:32) speaker_1: I think, especially in a trip like that, I think can be a lot of stress and pretty emotional, so I would not…

(1:14:38) speaker_1: I wouldn’t ch- And it was, like, a two-week tour. That’s awesome they’re putting that together, but I would not-

(1:14:44) speaker_0: Not for you, yeah.

(1:14:45) speaker_1: Would not wanna do that. But, you know, I love the idea of, like, a weekend some place.

(1:14:50) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:14:50) speaker_1: Like a retreat or something. Let me think about that.

(1:14:52) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:14:52) speaker_1: I wonder how we could do that.

(1:14:53) speaker_0: Yeah, we could, definitely.

(1:14:56) speaker_1: With a few other… ‘Cause I did, I did really enjoy… I-I thought that breakout session was the best part of the gathering.

(1:15:03) speaker_0: Yeah. I mean, ’cause it, it’s sort of, like, you find your tribe or one where you feel like you belong, somewhat.

(1:15:10) speaker_0: And then within that, there’s even a tribe within a tribe, so… (laughs)

(1:15:14) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, Kiyomi, thank you so much for the invitation.

(1:15:18) speaker_1: This was really a fun conversation and you gave me some things to think about that I hadn’t ever thought about.

(1:15:25) speaker_0: What do you want people to know about… As a Korean-adoptee marrying into a Korean-American family?

(1:15:31) speaker_1: Oh, I think, I think that they should just be aware that there are some challenges. And I think…

(1:15:38) speaker_1: Like, to your point, I think if people have a fantasy about what it might be like, like if they think, “Oh, I’m gonna be marrying…

(1:15:45) speaker_1: You know, I’m gonna be getting the family that I didn’t, didn’t have,” or, you know, th- this is gonna be a replacement for that.

(1:15:51) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:15:51) speaker_1: I don’t think it’s… Obviously not that simple, it’s quite complex. But I also think there are some really wonderful things that it brought me.

(1:15:59) speaker_1: And I think the biggest thing for me is, I just feel like being married to Tom has really, I think…

(1:16:05) speaker_1: I don’t know if this makes sense, but, like, brought out more of the Korean-ness in me, in terms of curiosity and the support for searching.

(1:16:18) speaker_1: And I just really am not sure that that would have been present with, with anybody else.

(1:16:23) speaker_1: ‘Cause certainly when I had dated, you know, most of my boyfriends had been Caucasian. And I didn’t really talk about adoption nearly as much as…

(1:16:31) speaker_1: It just wasn’t sort of at the forefront.

(1:16:33) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Well, it’s good you married Tom.

(1:16:37) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(1:16:37) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:16:37) speaker_1: Well, for so many reasons. But I… Yes, that’s a really, a really wonderful and unexpected thing for me.

(1:16:42) speaker_1: ‘Cause it’s not like I went looking for that and thought, “Oh, I’m gonna find somebody that’s gonna help me figure out this part of my, my history or my life.

(1:16:50) speaker_1: “

(1:16:50) speaker_0: And then, Delight, if people… Do you want people to be able to contact you at all, or find you on social media? Or, you know, if they…

(1:16:57) speaker_0: Your story resonated and they…

(1:17:00) speaker_1: Yeah. If, if people have something that I can help them with, I’m happy to be of service.

(1:17:06) speaker_0: Okay, and how can they find you?

(1:17:08) speaker_1: Um, I’m on Facebook, and they can just DM me through, through Facebook.

(1:17:13) speaker_0: Okay. Thank you so much, Delight. Can’t wait to connect with you in person again soon. Shout out to new Patreon supporter, Seong Ju.

(1:17:37) speaker_0: If you’re new to finding this podcast, welcome. We are wrapping up Season 7 and have a few more episodes to go.

(1:17:46) speaker_0: If you’d like to help support the podcast in its final episodes, we have a Patreon page, patreon.com/adaptedpodcast.

(1:17:55) speaker_0: You can cancel at any time, or after the season ends. On June 27th, there will be a special Zoom call for Patreon supporters.

(1:18:04) speaker_0: Korean-American adoptee, therapist, and author, Camley Small has confirmed and will be helping to facilitate. Jenna Lee Park provided audio production.

(1:18:15) speaker_0: YuGung Jun is our volunteer Korean translator. I’m Kiyomi Lee, see you next time.

Wyatt Tuell, 45, is an adopted Korean who has learned that family does not have to be biological to be special. The Omaha, NE resident was adopted as a newborn to a Korean adoptive mother and white American military father. However, he was adopted a second time by another man whom he considers his father. And later, when he sought to become a father himself, health complications meant that path would also rely on alternative methods to create a family.

Audio available Friday, June 7, 2024.

(0:00:06) speaker_0: Welcome to Adopted podcast. Season 7, episode 20 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:17) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:25) speaker_0: I have been bringing you these stories since 2016.

(0:00:28) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families, and society that wants only a feel-good story.

(0:00:39) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.

(0:00:43) speaker_1: You know, family is you might not be related and still put your life on the line for somebody and love them unconditionally.

(0:00:52) speaker_0: This next episode hits all the touchstones of adoption; tragedy, loss, love, belonging, and identity. Wyatt Tull found the podcast and had a story to tell.

(0:01:03) speaker_0: Unlike many others whom we’ve heard from over seven seasons, Wyatt’s adoptive mother is also Korean-American.

(0:01:10) speaker_0: One thing that struck me about his story is that despite having racial mirrors, he also grew up with self-hatred of being Asian and wishing he was White.

(0:01:20) speaker_0: Here’s Wyatt.

(0:01:24) speaker_1: Hey, hi, my name is Wyatt Tuell. That’s spelled T-U-E-L-L. I’m 40, now 45 years old.

(0:01:31) speaker_1: I live in Omaha, Nebraska, and currently I’m a city planner with the municipal planning department here.

(0:01:38) speaker_0: Okay. So you’ve been listening to a handful of episodes. What has resonated with you?

(0:01:44) speaker_1: Uh, just the… I guess in some ways, my own naivety to some of the adoption stories out there.

(0:01:52) speaker_1: I’ve, I’ve met other Korean adoptees in my life, but I think it’s been very limited.

(0:01:58) speaker_1: So the scope that, of which you’ve been able to find, and/or have on your show was a little bit eye-opening.

(0:02:06) speaker_1: But in each story though, I’ve also experienced some, like, shared experiences, and I can see little bits of myself in each one of those stories.

(0:02:15) speaker_1: But everybody’s is very different too, and I feel mine is unique in its own way as well.

(0:02:19) speaker_0: Are you new to sort of going down this kind of adoption journey? I mean, not new in that adoption is (laughs)-

(0:02:29) speaker_1: For sure.

(0:02:29) speaker_0: … lifelong, but just kind of exploring, um, your feelings or thoughts about your adoption?

(0:02:35) speaker_1: Uh, not necessarily. I mean, I’ve, I’ve always been aware of it and thought of it. I guess you can say I never really dwelled on it too much.

(0:02:44) speaker_1: You know, I have not met my birth parents, and I’ve not, at this point, looked into really seeking them out.

(0:02:50) speaker_1: And so I don’t know if I will do that or not, but listening to your podcast has at least kind of opened that door to the possibility, more so than I thought I would before.

(0:03:00) speaker_1:

(0:03:00) speaker_0: Oh, okay. So you’ve kind of become more open to that potential.

(0:03:04) speaker_1: Yeah, for that potential. I still, at this point, for a whole lot of different reasons, just don’t know if that’s the path I want to go down yet.

(0:03:11) speaker_0: Okay. So Wyatt, when you wrote me, you wrote there was something a little bit different about your, your story. Do you wanna-

(0:03:19) speaker_1: Sure.

(0:03:20) speaker_0: … go ahead and, and talk to us?

(0:03:21) speaker_1: Sure. So I guess in a nutshell, my story is, I was born in Korea in a, I believe it was, like, a small coastal village at that time.

(0:03:31) speaker_1: From what I understand, my birth father had committed suicide before I was born.

(0:03:38) speaker_1: My birth mom, I guess that the two of them had a, a son already, so I, I believe ha- I probably have at least one biological brother.

(0:03:48) speaker_1: And at that time, my adoptive mom, who is also Korean, and was at that time married to an American soldier, and she was not able to have kids on her own.

(0:03:58) speaker_1: So they found out about me, and they adopted me right when I was born.

(0:04:04) speaker_1: The adoption wasn’t official till later on, but they took me in, like, the day I was born.

(0:04:10) speaker_0: So this happened in Korea?

(0:04:13) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:04:14) speaker_0: So your, your parents were stationed there?

(0:04:17) speaker_1: Yes. They, they had been married for a few years. They had come to the US for a while, and then, but I think he was… They came back to Korea.

(0:04:25) speaker_1: I believe he was stationed there again for some reason. Whatever it is, but they were in Korea again.

(0:04:29) speaker_0: And did you ever ask your parents exactly how they found out about your parents?

(0:04:35) speaker_1: Um, not really. I have talked about my adoption with my mom occasionally, but we don’t talk too much about it though.

(0:04:44) speaker_0: Okay. And your mom, was she a Korea native? Born in Korea as well?

(0:04:51) speaker_1: Yes. So my mom’s story is one that’s very, very tragic in a lot of ways.

(0:04:58) speaker_1: She was born in ’45, and at age five, her mom, and she had a sibling as well, her mom took her to, I believe, an orphanage or somewhere, but she was abandoned.

(0:05:10) speaker_1: And then she just kind of survived on her own for a while, was kind of taken in by another family. But, um, really was just kind of on her own.

(0:05:22) speaker_1: And so the person that she was married to at that time, when they, originally adopted, they divorced when I was age two, but she was working long, hard hours at a coffee shop when she met him.

(0:05:32) speaker_1: Then over time, they got married, and eventually somehow found me.

(0:05:38) speaker_0: This is before you were born?

(0:05:41) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:05:42) speaker_0: Okay. And so your mother, maybe having been abandoned as a child-

(0:05:48) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:05:49) speaker_0: … did she ever talk about, you know, was it related to her interest in adopting?

(0:05:55) speaker_1: I, I think so. I know that it’s always kind of like she would say she chose me, and that she’s had a lot of, in her life, a lot of abandonment.

(0:06:06) speaker_1: So I think for her, it was a special relationship where she could, I don’t know, you say make your own family, but she chose somebody to be a part of her life.

(0:06:13) speaker_1:

(0:06:14) speaker_0: And so you spent the first couple years in Korea?

(0:06:16) speaker_1: Yeah, I was looking at my adoption papers. So there was an adoption later the next year, let’s see here, it is through the Eastern Child Welfare Society.

(0:06:28) speaker_1: And then a few months later, there’s another one through the Children’s Home Society in Minnesota that kind of, I guess, finalized my adoption.

(0:06:37) speaker_1: And my mom’s ex-husband, he was from Omaha and that’s how we ended up back here. So they just moved back to the Omaha area.

(0:06:42) speaker_0: And you grew up in Omaha?

(0:06:44) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:06:46) speaker_0: Okay. What was your childhood like?

(0:06:48) speaker_1: It was really happy, actually (laughs).

(0:06:51) speaker_1: Um, so before I really have memories, they divorced, and for a few years it was just my mom and I, and my earliest memories are of her and I together in an apartment.

(0:07:03) speaker_1: And she worked incredibly hard for me at that time. Those were really, really, really tough years for her because she was very, very poor.

(0:07:10) speaker_1: She worked a lot of hours. And I do appreciate those memories because they make me appreciate her for what she did.

(0:07:18) speaker_1: And then later, when I was age four, she met the person that she would marry and that I consider my dad, who raised me, and our family was kind of an unlikely makeup.

(0:07:30) speaker_1: So it’s me and my mom who are Korean. She adopted me. By that time, she had become a Catholic. And then my dad was born in Georgia.

(0:07:41) speaker_1: He’s White, and he was born in 1919 in Georgia. So there was a pretty significant age difference between my mom and my dad.

(0:07:50) speaker_1: And together, we’re a very strong nuclear family. My dad, for me, I can’t say enough good things about my dad.

(0:07:56) speaker_1: I, I believe I take my personality after him. He was…

(0:07:59) speaker_1: For somebody that was born at the time he was born and the place he was born, was an extremely progressive and open-minded person. He was also military.

(0:08:08) speaker_1: He was an Air Force pilot, retired by the time we met him. And he was actually my babysitter for (laughs) for a little while when she first met him.

(0:08:16) speaker_1: And I quickly accepted him as my dad. They married when I was five years old. So I found a lot of love, fortunately.

(0:08:24) speaker_1: I’m very, very lucky in that, in that sense.

(0:08:27) speaker_0: And did you have a relationship with your, um-

(0:08:33) speaker_1: My mom’s ex-husband?

(0:08:34) speaker_0: Yeah. Do you

(0:08:35) speaker_2: (noise)

(0:08:36) speaker_0: … from your adoptive dad or not?

(0:08:37) speaker_1: Uh, at this time, no. So ironically, after they divorced, his sister and her husband kind of helped take care of my mom and I.

(0:08:46) speaker_1: They were still there for us. And actually, my mom’s ex-husband, his mom still considered me her grandson, and I still called her grandma.

(0:08:55) speaker_1: I would still see her up until her death, through most of my childhood.

(0:08:58) speaker_1: So it was, it’s kind of weird that we still stay close to some of his family, even though we didn’t stay close to him.

(0:09:05) speaker_1: Up until I was about four or five, you know, I would see him every once…

(0:09:09) speaker_1: After my mom got remarried, he moved to a different state, so we really didn’t see him. I met him again in college.

(0:09:15) speaker_1: He had since remarried, had a child, and we talked, and it was, it was good, actually.

(0:09:20) speaker_1: My mom doesn’t have any ill feelings towards him, but we just don’t have a relationship.

(0:09:25) speaker_1: I talked to him again, like a few years ago, just because there was some misunderstanding.

(0:09:29) speaker_1: They thought he was really, really sick and I called them, but that wasn’t the case. But we still had a good conversation.

(0:09:34) speaker_1: In that sense, I just don’t really feel… He’s got his family, I have my life here. And so we don’t really connect on any level.

(0:09:41) speaker_1: I mean, even though we’re still close to members of his family, though.

(0:09:45) speaker_0: And were you ever legally adopted by the man that you call your father?

(0:09:50) speaker_1: Yes. So I’ve been adopted twice (laughs), and so my name has changed a couple times.

(0:09:55) speaker_1: But when, I believe I was in third grade, they had asked me if I wanted to be adopted and have him, and I could take his name, and I did.

(0:10:03) speaker_1: So I remember getting dressed up that day, putting on a suit, going to the courthouse and making it official and coming back to school.

(0:10:11) speaker_0: Okay. So you were relinquished right after you were born?

(0:10:15) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Yes.

(0:10:17) speaker_0: The day you were born?

(0:10:18) speaker_1: Y- Correct.

(0:10:19) speaker_0: Okay. Do you think, was your Korean mother in a, a midwife clinic or?

(0:10:24) speaker_1: I don’t know. I believe, I, I…

(0:10:26) speaker_1: Somehow I think I have a memory of talking about this with my mom, that it wasn’t in a hospital, so it might have actually just been a home birth.

(0:10:34) speaker_0: Okay, so it was a private adoption at first, but then-

(0:10:39) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:10:39) speaker_0: … it eventually went through Eastern.

(0:10:41) speaker_1: Uh, correct.

(0:10:43) speaker_0: Okay. All right. So having a, a Korean mom-

(0:10:46) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:10:46) speaker_0: … did she speak Korean to you at home?

(0:10:48) speaker_1: Uh, not, not really. So we always grew up speaking English in our house. My mom would speak occasional Korean, but I never picked up on it.

(0:10:57) speaker_1: And she said she tried to teach me Korean when I was little, but I wasn’t really willing to learn. And of course, in Omaha, there’s not a huge Korean…

(0:11:05) speaker_1: Uh, there are Korean people here, but it’s not like a huge community. And I didn’t grow up around a lot of other Koreans.

(0:11:13) speaker_1: And my mom also just didn’t try hard enough to, to teach me, and me being so young, I just didn’t really want to, because she was the only person I was going to be using it with.

(0:11:21) speaker_1: And we spoke English mostly in the house anyway, because she was always married to somebody who wasn’t a Korean speaker.

(0:11:27) speaker_1: So unfortunately, I never picked up on it.

(0:11:30) speaker_0: Did she want you to become 100% American? And so, that timeframe?

(0:11:35) speaker_1: I think so.

(0:11:37) speaker_0: Like, to assimilate.

(0:11:38) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, my mom’s pretty, pretty Americanized.

(0:11:41) speaker_1: I think part of it is because she doesn’t have really good memories of Korea because of her hard, very hard childhood and early life and, you know, young adulthood.

(0:11:50) speaker_1: And then when she, we came in the United States, the Korean community to her was always kind of kept at arm’s length.

(0:11:58) speaker_0: Oh, why do you think?

(0:12:01) speaker_1: Uh, because I think… Well, she says she always didn’t like the gossip, is what she says. She didn’t like the gossip.

(0:12:08) speaker_1: And, and there’s, part of it is possibly because, with me being adopted, and there is, you know, some cultural stigma with that in the world that she grew up in….

(0:12:17) speaker_1: I don’t know if it’s safe to say that for sure, but I think that has a factor in it.

(0:12:20) speaker_0: That’s the feeling you got. So the Korean American community in Omaha-

(0:12:25) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:12:25) speaker_0: … The Korean community in Omaha, perhaps your mother felt a little shunned by them?

(0:12:30) speaker_1: Um, I don’t know if she felt shunned.

(0:12:33) speaker_0: For having adopted?

(0:12:34) speaker_1: I don’t… Yeah. I don’t think she ever really told anybody, um-

(0:12:38) speaker_0: That’s the feeling you got, but-

(0:12:39) speaker_1: Y- yeah. Yeah.

(0:12:41) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:12:42) speaker_1: I mean, we would still, you know, she would have Korean friends, but we never spent a significant amount of time with them and they were wild, and those friends just kind of lasted their moments and at a certain point, I really didn’t, she didn’t really have any other Korean friends.

(0:12:54) speaker_1:

(0:12:54) speaker_0: Okay. You know, one thing, uh, I’m wondering if you grew up with Korean food?

(0:13:01) speaker_1: I did. Quite a bit. So my mom did cook a lot of Korean food. Um, my, my dad liked Korean food, so he enjoyed eating kimchi.

(0:13:08) speaker_1: She cooked a lot of the Korean food, I guess, that was more friendly to an American palate, so it’s a lot of bulgogi, a lot of kalbi, kimchi, made some soups too.

(0:13:18) speaker_1: Uh, but, you know, I would say that my Korean food experience is not as like far as the Korean Americans who I were raised with, both parents are Korean, the Korean food that they would probably had a wider range than what I grew up with.

(0:13:30) speaker_1:

(0:13:30) speaker_0: Uh, what… Did you have miyeok guk on your birthday?

(0:13:33) speaker_1: Yes. I, I do… Well, there, there’s pictures of me on my first birthday.

(0:13:38) speaker_1: I think that, that birthday was probably more traditional, and that was in Korea at that time too.

(0:13:44) speaker_0: Oh, but she didn’t carry on traditions-

(0:13:48) speaker_1: N- no, not really.

(0:13:49) speaker_0: … in the United States? So like when you went to school you didn’t get, you know, quote unquote a stinky lunch or…

(0:13:55) speaker_1: Uh, I did one time (laughs). I, I do have a very specific memory where my mom made some, like, I didn’t even ask to have it to take it with me to school.

(0:14:05) speaker_1: And so I had some rice, some dried seaweed and some kimchi and my school mates, some of them they said how it smelled, but some of them wanted to try it and, you know, they said, “Oh, this is gross.

(0:14:16) speaker_1: I don’t like it.” So that was the one and only time I ever brought a traditional Korean meal to school.

(0:14:22) speaker_0: Did you ever feel ashamed about your mother being… Or you and your mother being Asian, being Korean, being, well, she was an immigrant?

(0:14:32) speaker_1: I think, well, it’s more…

(0:14:34) speaker_1: It’s probably similar to a lot of Asian American experiences especially growing up in the Midwest where there’s not a lot of Asians.

(0:14:43) speaker_1: And I think I remember one of the, the earlier podcasts, one of your guys said that, you know, being Asian in the ’80s was hard.

(0:14:50) speaker_1: And (laughs) I, I think I kind of experienced that as well. So it’s not something I was more ashamed of.

(0:14:55) speaker_1: Uh, it’s just kind of more the, uh, why can’t I just fit in and be like everybody else? And, like, there’s a common saying, “I wish I was white.

(0:15:03) speaker_1: ” And kind of having grown up in a world that was like, you know, because my parents is very full Korean, but I was raised kind of half, so I, I grew up with influences from different cultures, but one that was rooted in what I look like.

(0:15:17) speaker_1: But for a long time, I just didn’t know where I fit in for a while. (instrumental music plays) So, yeah, just growing up was…

(0:15:32) speaker_1: Because, I mean, the neighborhood I grew up in was actually fairly diverse.

(0:15:37) speaker_1: It still, like, was very much majority white, but for the longest time, my, my first best friend was black, and there were, there was Hispanic families, there was a, uh, Indian American family.

(0:15:49) speaker_1: So I, I grew up around diversity, but I was always the only Asian one. I was also an only child as well.

(0:15:55) speaker_1: So it was more the, uh, I just feel like I was always the only one around, so I felt like I, you know, stuck out a lot in some ways.

(0:16:04) speaker_1: And at that time, in the ’80s, stereotypes had a stronger influence than I say in some ways today.

(0:16:10) speaker_1: It was just having to fight those stereotypes and then really not having representation in the media that where I could kind of see myself in a different light than what I was kind of subconsciously being pigeonholed into.

(0:16:22) speaker_1:

(0:16:22) speaker_0: What about your upbringing do you think seems different from other transracial Korean adoptees?

(0:16:29) speaker_1: I think because having a Korean mom helped in the sense that I… Especially later on in life, that like a part of me was always rooted in Koreanness.

(0:16:41) speaker_1: So I still had, you know, like the Korean food.

(0:16:43) speaker_1: There’s still parts of my mom, even though she’s very Americanized, there’s still Korean in her and Korean aspects of her and the way she believed in things.

(0:16:51) speaker_1: And then I did also listen to your podcast where you had another adoptee who was also adopted by Korean parents.

(0:16:59) speaker_1: What some of the differences I know from that one specifically is that I believe she wasn’t told that she was adopted until she was in her 30s, I believe.

(0:17:09) speaker_1:

(0:17:09) speaker_0: Right. Mm-hmm.

(0:17:10) speaker_1: So for me, I believe I was about six or seven or eight years old when my parents took me into the dining room and told me that I was adopted.

(0:17:18) speaker_1: I remember it very, very, very vividly and I’m very much convinced that my dad is the one who convinced my mom to tell me that, you know, that I needed to know that I was adopted because I’m sure at some point I was gonna have figured out on my own that, you know, my, my parents is full Korean, but the two dads that I’ve had in my life aren’t.

(0:17:36) speaker_1: And so why do I look like this and not half?

(0:17:38) speaker_0: So they never… Until that time, they didn’t really explain why you didn’t look half?

(0:17:43) speaker_1: No. I think at that time, I was just… I was a very naive kid (laughs). Up until that point, I believed that my mom and her ex-husband were my birth parents.

(0:17:51) speaker_1:

(0:17:51) speaker_0: Even though he was white?

(0:17:53) speaker_1: Yeah. Even though he was white. I think at, at that time, I was just too naive and too young to-

(0:17:58) speaker_0: Uh-huh.

(0:17:58) speaker_1: … realize that.

(0:17:59) speaker_0: Or maybe you just thought the way you looked was the product of a Korean woman and a white man.

(0:18:04) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, to that point, I just assumed that I look what I look like mainly ’cause of my mom. And so I, I used to always say, “Mom, I came from your belly.

(0:18:14) speaker_1: ” And so I remember that night they said, “You know how you always say that you come from my belly? Well, actually that’s not true.

(0:18:23) speaker_1: You were, you were adopted.”… and I remember crying really, really, really hard (laughs) and being kind of, kind of devastated by that.

(0:18:33) speaker_1: But at the same time, I still felt their love and I recovered very quickly from it.

(0:18:40) speaker_1: And, and we’ll probably talk about this later, for my own kids, that me being told at that age helped me, because I was old enough that I could understand it, but I was young enough that I wasn’t gonna overthink it, and then lived my childhood knowing this fact of my life.

(0:18:59) speaker_1: So, it was something that I just knew, whereas I think if I had been told later in life, it would’ve been a more difficult pill to swallow.

(0:19:07) speaker_0: So you were told you were adopted when you were seven?

(0:19:11) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:19:13) speaker_0: Do you think, uh, growing up, most people just assumed that your mom was your biological mom?

(0:19:18) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:19:20) speaker_0: So you didn’t really get questions, “Are you adopted?” you know, from strangers or…

(0:19:25) speaker_1: No. No. Uh, the only times that…

(0:19:27) speaker_1: ‘Cause at times I was with my dad, ’cause my dad was a, like a much older White man, so when we would go other places together, I think they probably wouldn’t assume that I was his son, or the times that actually he did…

(0:19:41) speaker_1: People would say, oh, “Is this your grandson?” And my dad would get upset. He’s like, “No, this is my son.

(0:19:47) speaker_1: ” In hindsight, I know that he was saying that not for the other people.

(0:19:50) speaker_1: He was saying that for me, ’cause he was trying to show that he loved me, so he’s like, “You’re my son.

(0:19:56) speaker_1: ” ‘Cause he realized that on the surface, I’m clearly not his biological son. But I don’t really remember anybody…

(0:20:02) speaker_1: I think just ’cause people didn’t assume that him and I would be related in any way. But for my mom, no, never…

(0:20:08) speaker_1: People always assumed that I was her biological son.

(0:20:11) speaker_0: Okay. Did people stare at your family?

(0:20:15) speaker_1: I… Yeah, I, I think so, ’cause I think it was a lot of different aspects of that with, obviously…

(0:20:23) speaker_1: It’s an interracial marriage, and then my dad is significantly older.

(0:20:28) speaker_0: What was the age difference between them?

(0:20:31) speaker_1: Uh, she was born in ’45. He was born in 1919, so roughly 25 years.

(0:20:36) speaker_0: Okay. So, when you graduated from high school, how old was he?

(0:20:40) speaker_1: Uh, I graduated in ’97, so that would be…

(0:20:46) speaker_0: Roughly, was he like in his 60s when you graduated from high school?

(0:20:50) speaker_1: Yeah. Or, he actually would’ve been in his 70s, I believe, so 19 in ’19, then ’97.

(0:20:56) speaker_0: Okay. You know, you talked about your mom being really resilient.

(0:21:01) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:02) speaker_0: Hardworking. When you look back now, do you think there’s traits about her that seem to you very Korean?

(0:21:09) speaker_1: Um-

(0:21:10) speaker_0: I mean, I know you say she was very Americanized.

(0:21:12) speaker_1: Yes. Yeah.

(0:21:12) speaker_0: But now looking back, are there things about her personality or her values that seem to you now, that she retained some of her Korean, uh, culture?

(0:21:25) speaker_1: Sure. Um, I think so. I’m trying to think of anything truly specific ’cause the way she grew up, she… I mean, she grew up uneducated, so she-

(0:21:36) speaker_0: She ended up on the streets, right? Or no, she had a family-

(0:21:39) speaker_1: Pretty much.

(0:21:39) speaker_0: … take care of her?

(0:21:41) speaker_1: Later on. I, I don’t know all the story on that exactly.

(0:21:43) speaker_1: It’s, it’s something I try not to ask too much of my, my mom’s past ’cause I know it’s painful for her, so unless she divulges it, you know, I don’t really ask her about it.

(0:21:52) speaker_1:

(0:21:52) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:53) speaker_1: But I remember she grew up uneducated, so she really had to strive and kinda do things on her own.

(0:21:59) speaker_0: Did that make her a tough, a tough woman, on the exterior anyway?

(0:22:04) speaker_1: Yes. Yes. It’s tough, but it’s also given her a lot of anxiety and it’s, it’s caused her some, you know, mental health issues in terms of-

(0:22:13) speaker_0: Like depression?

(0:22:13) speaker_1: Anxiety.

(0:22:14) speaker_0: Can I ask…

(0:22:15) speaker_1: I would say, yeah, depression, anxiety, abandonment. She was abandoned when she was five.

(0:22:20) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:22:21) speaker_1: Her first marriage didn’t work out.

(0:22:23) speaker_1: And then, in 2009, my dad passed away too, so it kinda feels like she’s, she’s lost a lot, and it feels like people close to her have left her.

(0:22:34) speaker_1: So, that part has caused her some trauma where she’s had to deal with that. Um, so in her… She’s, you know, had some different Korean beliefs.

(0:22:44) speaker_1: Like, she still, for my dad, on holidays, she likes to bring food to him at the cemetery.

(0:22:49) speaker_1: She still believes in those certain foods, doing certain things, and some of those superstitions of Korean culture, she still believes in some of that.

(0:22:57) speaker_1:

(0:22:58) speaker_0: Like, did you not fall asleep with a fan on?

(0:23:01) speaker_1: Actually, that wasn’t one, but I remember bleeding out, like if I wasn’t feeling well when I was really little, she would poke my finger to let some blood out.

(0:23:09) speaker_1:

(0:23:09) speaker_0: When you were not feeling well?

(0:23:11) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:23:12) speaker_0: Okay. Well, how did you figure out that was maybe different?

(0:23:16) speaker_1: That was probably when I was in elementary school.

(0:23:19) speaker_0: You would tell your friends and they would say, “We’ve never done that?”

(0:23:24) speaker_1: No, I think I’d just say… Later on I was old enough to figure out like, okay, I don’t see how this makes… This doesn’t make any sense to me.

(0:23:29) speaker_0: I- is it a Korean thing or is it just your mom thing?

(0:23:32) speaker_1: I think it’s a Korean thing.

(0:23:34) speaker_0: Okay. Did she like sitting on the floor?

(0:23:36) speaker_1: When I was younger, especially when she would make kimchi, she would always make kimchi on the floor, or do some cooking where she’d prefer to sit on the floor to make dough or noodles.

(0:23:46) speaker_1: But then later on, I don’t remember her doing that. Probably by the time I was in high school, I don’t think she was doing that as much.

(0:23:52) speaker_0: So what… You said, you know, you described your mom having some depression and struggling with mental health.

(0:24:00) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:01) speaker_0: Do you feel like because of her…

(0:24:03) speaker_0: The trauma of being abandoned herself, and probably raising herself, did you feel like she had attachment issues or problems attaching with people?

(0:24:13) speaker_1: I think so.

(0:24:15) speaker_0: Do you feel like also that she had trouble attaching to you?

(0:24:19) speaker_1: I don’t think she had any trouble attaching to me, probably because I was family and…… I was hers.

(0:24:27) speaker_1: Whereas, I think other people, it’s probably the, kind of the adage of she’s gonna push other people away before they can push her away.

(0:24:36) speaker_1: It’s probably more, I would say, an accurate statement of her. Like now, even now, she has a very small friend circle and…

(0:24:42) speaker_1: Whereas, it’s hard ’cause she’s actually really good in social situations, but after a while she says she just doesn’t want to be in them.

(0:24:58) speaker_0: Okay. Do you think that impacted you in any way?

(0:25:09) speaker_1: Um, well, in a sense because…

(0:25:11) speaker_1: We’ll put it this way, because she kept the Korean community locally at such an arm’s length that, that then probably prevented me from making more Korean friends growing up.

(0:25:23) speaker_1: Here in Omaha, in a suburb called Bellevue, there’s a very large Air Force base called Offutt.

(0:25:28) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:25:28) speaker_1: And so there was a larger Korean community because of the Air Force base, but we lived about 45 minutes from there.

(0:25:35) speaker_1: So like her friends had Korean kids that were around my age, and when I would see them, we would play or hang out, but we never lived close enough where I made meaningful friendships with them.

(0:25:44) speaker_1: In a sense, I just really didn’t grow up with any Korean friends.

(0:25:48) speaker_1: Whereas I think if she was a little bit more accepting of the Korean community and maybe that her anxieties and other issues, uh, had allowed that to happen, then I think I would have not had as many of those questions of self-identity growing up.

(0:26:04) speaker_1:

(0:26:05) speaker_0: And you never… Did you guys go to a Korean church at all?

(0:26:08) speaker_1: No, we went to a, a white Catholic church, is where I grew up.

(0:26:13) speaker_0: So kind of indirectly your mom, or subconsciously, I guess, your mom didn’t have good memories of Korea.

(0:26:22) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:26:22) speaker_0: Kept other Koreans kind of at arm’s length.

(0:26:26) speaker_1: Yep.

(0:26:26) speaker_0: What kind of message did that send to you? Did you feel like being Korean was bad?

(0:26:33) speaker_1: I can’t say that it was bad, um, but it just left kind of a question as to where, you know, where do I fit in?

(0:26:41) speaker_1: Like, you know, my dad was from the South, but he didn’t really bring a lot of, you could say Southern culture, small aspects but not really.

(0:26:49) speaker_1: So I grew up very Midwestern and Americanized, but I was kind of rooted in some Koreanness with her. But, um, it was…

(0:26:59) speaker_1: And then because of the language too, sometimes she would go to the Korean market here, and a lot of times I remember when I was little, I didn’t want to go inside because I knew they would speak Korean and I wouldn’t understand.

(0:27:10) speaker_1: And at that time in my life, I was embarrassed of that, so I didn’t want to go inside and, um, kind of had to face that. I would just stay in the car.

(0:27:19) speaker_1: Like, I think I wanted to know more about the Korean culture in some ways, um, but I was naive to it. I…

(0:27:26) speaker_1: It was more of a subconscious thing, I would say, ’cause it wasn’t till later on in college that I started to become more comfortable in my skin about all of that.

(0:27:37) speaker_1:

(0:27:38) speaker_0: Where did you go to college?

(0:27:39) speaker_1: I went to Kansas State University, which is about three and a half hours south of Omaha.

(0:27:44) speaker_0: Okay. And so growing up in the ’80s and ’90s-

(0:27:49) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:27:49) speaker_0: … were you teased because you were Korean?

(0:27:52) speaker_1: Um, yeah, somewhat. Yeah.

(0:27:54) speaker_1: Uh, I would say, you know, I’ve never experienced really outright hateful racism, but just more, yeah, teasing or just the, the ignorant questions like, “Do you know karate?

(0:28:05) speaker_1: Do you, do you speak Korean?” Or, “Your English is really good.

(0:28:08) speaker_1: ” Or, um, I remember even somebody came door to door selling some pamphlets or something like that, and I talk in, having a conversation with them and then all of a sudden she asks, “Oh, can you read English?

(0:28:17) speaker_1: “

(0:28:18) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(0:28:19) speaker_1: So… And then, of course, you know, the, like the dog, dog meat jokes. Um…

(0:28:23) speaker_0: Asking if you ate dog meat.

(0:28:25) speaker_1: Yeah. Or not only that I probably don’t, but just, you know, making that joke about it.

(0:28:29) speaker_0: You really didn’t have maybe a lot of pride in being Korean or identity.

(0:28:35) speaker_1: Yeah, I would say so.

(0:28:36) speaker_1: That’s probably, you know, wishing, wishing I, I could just blend in with everybody else and not have those jokes and stereotypes put on me.

(0:28:46) speaker_0: Growing up, did you ever think about your, your birth mother or trying to find her?

(0:28:51) speaker_1: Not, not really.

(0:28:53) speaker_1: And this is something that, you know, though with some of those challenges, you know, stereotypes and things like that, overall my childhood was very, was very happy.

(0:29:06) speaker_1:

(0:29:06) speaker_0: Like a middle-class upbringing?

(0:29:08) speaker_1: Yeah, middle class. Yeah, after my mother married my dad then life was much better. Before then, you know, we were really, really poor.

(0:29:17) speaker_1: But then he was middle class and so that put us in a better financial situation.

(0:29:33) speaker_0: And had… Did you ever talk about it with your parents about wanting to know or having a curiosity about…

(0:29:44) speaker_1: So, since I was told at a young age and I just kind of knew about it, and I grew up, you know, very happy because I felt very loved by my parents and they took great care of me and loved me very, very much.

(0:29:55) speaker_1: So I never, like had this yearning to find love from my birth parents.

(0:30:00) speaker_1: I didn’t really have that urge and it wasn’t until college actually that my mom told me that my birth dad had committed suicide.

(0:30:10) speaker_1: And she didn’t say why, but my, my assumption is that it’s because, um, my birth mom probably became pregnant, it probably was unexpected, and I’m sure it was probably something that he couldn’t handle, is, is all my assumption here….

(0:30:28) speaker_1: and then that, that’s why that he, I’m guessing, committed suicide.

(0:30:33) speaker_1: So I, I just never had a strong, strong feeling, and I’ve always kind of said like, you know, if, if I could find them, I would just write a letter and say that I’m good, that you made the right decision.

(0:30:43) speaker_1: But, um, there’s also part of me that’s kind of both a combination of selfishness and fearfulness about what would I find, you know?

(0:30:52) speaker_1: ‘Cause I’m not really seeking happiness or an empty spot, ’cause I don’t feel that. It’s more, if I find them, what situation would they be in?

(0:31:03) speaker_1: I assume that they would probably still be poor.

(0:31:06) speaker_1: I wonder if my brother would have any resentment to me being adopted and then maybe being put into a better life than what he might be in currently.

(0:31:16) speaker_0: What do you mean? You mean, being resentful of you or jealous of you?

(0:31:20) speaker_1: Yeah. That’s a thought in my mind, like, would that be a thought in his mind, or does he remember that he had a brother? I don’t know what age he is.

(0:31:29) speaker_1: Am I just a memory, or, or am I forgotten about?

(0:31:33) speaker_1: But if I am something that he knows, I just wonder if I do find them, if they are in a bad situation, even if they’re not asking for it, would I feel an obligation to make their lives better?

(0:31:45) speaker_1:

(0:31:45) speaker_0: Would you, do you think?

(0:31:47) speaker_1: I think I would feel that, but then, you know, this sounds selfish.

(0:31:52) speaker_1: My life currently, I have my own family, I have my own worries and things in life, and a lot of burdens.

(0:32:00) speaker_1: Being an only child (laughs) is, I guess, one thing is my mom always did pass along that culture that, you know, the oldest son is responsible for taking care of the parents, and I kind of took that on.

(0:32:11) speaker_1: And so I feel like I’ve already, have a lot of responsibilities, and I don’t know how well I can handle and what, h- how much guilt would I feel if I can or can’t help them, if, if that ends up being the case.

(0:32:26) speaker_1:

(0:32:26) speaker_0: And I mean, we don’t know either, you know?

(0:32:29) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:32:29) speaker_0: This is all kind of an assumption.

(0:32:31) speaker_1: Yeah. I’ve kind of played that scenario in my mind. So it’s something like, do I wanna know? Do I need to know?

(0:32:38) speaker_1: Because up until this point, I kind of would just tell myself it would just be too hard to find them anyway.

(0:32:43) speaker_1: There are probably avenues I could at least look into for that, but I haven’t even attempted that at this point.

(0:32:48) speaker_0: So when you say it’s too hard, do you have their names in your paperwork?

(0:32:52) speaker_1: In the English paperwork I have, there is no name. There’s an address that I think I even Googled at one point, but it didn’t seem like it existed anymore.

(0:33:00) speaker_1:

(0:33:00) speaker_0: You have not written to Eastern?

(0:33:02) speaker_1: I have not.

(0:33:04) speaker_0: Okay. And have you been back to Korea?

(0:33:08) speaker_1: I did, uh, about 10, 15 years ago.

(0:33:10) speaker_1: I had a Korean American friend of mine that, at that time, was teaching English in Seoul, so I went to go visit her, so I did that, but it was just more of a vacation and the visit a friend, so actually just kind of doing more of the touristy things, and we went to Jeju Island.

(0:33:24) speaker_1: It, it wasn’t like a search for my family or a deeper dive into Korean culture. It’s just more of like, this is my first time back in Korea.

(0:33:32) speaker_1: I’m just gonna visit my friend, and we’re gonna do fun, touristy stuff.

(0:33:35) speaker_0: And how did you feel going back?

(0:33:37) speaker_1: It was, it was odd. I mean, I really enjoyed it.

(0:33:41) speaker_1: Being in Seoul was the first time in my life that I felt so insignificant, because, you know, being in Omaha, obviously, I’m, I’m around majority white people, or at least in the population where there’s not as many Asians or Koreans.

(0:33:55) speaker_1: And so being in Seoul, and especially like riding the subways, there were so many people, and it was the first time where I felt like I wasn’t unique or I didn’t stand out, and that I could just kind of disappear and nobody would even know.

(0:34:07) speaker_1: So while I, I really enjoyed my time there, there was times where I just felt very insignificant. It was kind of a weird feeling.

(0:34:15) speaker_0: Okay. You’ve only been back the one time?

(0:34:18) speaker_1: Yeah. My girls right now are three and 19 months.

(0:34:21) speaker_1: So once they’re older, then I definitely wanna take them to Korea so then they can have memories, uh, or maybe learn some more about their cultural background, and then maybe have a little bit more of a fuller experience than I did.

(0:34:34) speaker_1:

(0:34:35) speaker_0: Why, do you feel somehow you are at a disadvantage, or, like you said, your own background was a little bit ambiguous, and do you have feelings of inadequacy when sharing Korean culture with your daughters?

(0:34:50) speaker_0:

(0:34:51) speaker_1: Um, so yeah, I, like I feel like I don’t have a strong enough background. You know, obviously, I know some things. I sing Santoki to them at night sometimes.

(0:35:00) speaker_1:

(0:35:00) speaker_0: What’s Santoki?

(0:35:01) speaker_1: Santoki is a Korean lullaby, essentially, a Korean song.

(0:35:04) speaker_0: Is it about a rabbit?

(0:35:06) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:35:06) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:35:07) speaker_1: And I can’t interpret it (laughs), but I, um-

(0:35:09) speaker_0: You know the song? Okay.

(0:35:10) speaker_1: I know the song. My mom sang it to me a lot when I was little, and I-

(0:35:13) speaker_0: Can you sing it?

(0:35:14) speaker_1: Can I sing it? Oh, uh, sorry, you want me to sing it?

(0:35:16) speaker_0: Yeah. Can you sing it for me?

(0:35:17) speaker_1: Uh, okay. Well, there’s two versions, but then my mom always sang the long version to me. I didn’t realize ’til later there was a short version.

(0:35:22) speaker_1: It’s, uh, (singing). I believe that’s the short version.

(0:35:40) speaker_0: So you sing that to your daughters?

(0:35:43) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:35:43) speaker_0: Oh, that’s cool.

(0:35:44) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:35:44) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:35:44) speaker_1: And it, and it is weird because when my oldest is crying, it’s kind of, you know, that when I sing the Korean songs, and maybe it’s ’cause she doesn’t know what the words mean either, it seems to calm her a little more than some other songs, and I really don’t know why that is.

(0:35:58) speaker_1: My wife and I, we had some fertility issues. My wife got pregnant once biologically from both of us.

(0:36:08) speaker_1: We ended up losing that baby, and through that process, we found out that I have a chromosomal issue that’s called a balanced translocation.

(0:36:19) speaker_1: It’s basically where the chromosomes, when I was born, they split, but then they came back together symmetrically.

(0:36:26) speaker_1: But when I try to have children, that same thing is gonna happen with the chromosome split, but more often than not, they combine unsymmetrically, which causes a lot of birth defects and other issues.

(0:36:38) speaker_1: So after a while, we decided to go with, um, donor sperm, and actually a donor egg as well, because at that point-

(0:36:47) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:36:47) speaker_1: … that was our, our most viable option.

(0:36:50) speaker_0: Sure.

(0:36:50) speaker_1: So the sperm was from a sperm donation bank, and we wanted them to look as much like us, if we were to have biological children, as possible.

(0:36:58) speaker_1: So we were able to find Korean sperm donors, and we tried to find one that as closely matched my physical appearance from the descriptions.

(0:37:07) speaker_0: You see a photo of them?

(0:37:08) speaker_1: You don’t see a photo of them now. You can maybe get a childhood photo. And then also, if they want to, they can say, “Oh, I look like these celebrities.

(0:37:16) speaker_1: ” And then you’ll have links to see what celebrities they look like. So that’s the best way that, uh, that we can do it.

(0:37:22) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:37:23) speaker_1: Um, so yeah, they are half Korean, and-

(0:37:26) speaker_0: Half white?

(0:37:27) speaker_1: And half white, yes.

(0:37:28) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:37:30) speaker_1: When we went through this process, we were actually required to see a psychologist to go over, how would we tell them, how were they conceived, at an appropriate time.

(0:37:39) speaker_1: And they say that at age five is the ideal time to tell them, just ’cause they’ll be old enough to kind of understand, but not too old to overthink it.

(0:37:48) speaker_1: So then when that happened, that made me think to when I was told, and how I’m kind of thankful that, even though I was a little older than what they said, it’ll still, that probably, being told at that age, probably helped me.

(0:38:02) speaker_1: And then that, when the time comes, we’ll tell them, and hopefully that’ll be the same for them as well, that they’ll be more accepting, and that they’ll also have me around who also grew up with non-blood-related family, but having a very, very, very close family, and knowing that family doesn’t have to be blood.

(0:38:19) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays)

(0:38:22) speaker_0: Oh, interesting. So your kids, how old are they, your daughters?

(0:38:23) speaker_1: Three and 19 months.

(0:38:23) speaker_0: Okay. And so they, the three-year-old does not know?

(0:38:24) speaker_1: No. Not, not at this time.

(0:38:24) speaker_1: We’re recommended some children’s books that, you know, kind of help explain that, and we’ve read that to her, but not, uh, haven’t really tied it to us yet.

(0:38:24) speaker_1: But she’s still too young to really grasp all that.

(0:38:25) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:25) speaker_1: But there are some children’s books that explain that, so that’s something that we read to them as well.

(0:38:25) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. So you remember your own kind of traumatic experience being seven and finding out you were adopted.

(0:38:25) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:25) speaker_0: Do you worry? Do you have anxiety about-

(0:38:25) speaker_1: Uh-

(0:38:25) speaker_0: … to tell your, your daughter?

(0:38:26) speaker_1: I don’t think so, because I think since she’ll be, at age five and we told her, that I think she’ll just kind of be like, “Oh, okay.

(0:38:26) speaker_1: ” Or at least that’s the hope. I mean, there is some worry about that, but it’s not, I’m not overly concerned about it.

(0:38:26) speaker_0: And they say age five is a good age?

(0:38:26) speaker_1: Uh, yes.

(0:38:26) speaker_0: Okay. Do you worry that you wouldn’t want to wait until she’s seven? Like they-

(0:38:26) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:38:26) speaker_0: Like-

(0:38:26) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah, I would’n’t wanna wait much longer than that of letting her know how she came to be.

(0:38:39) speaker_0: Okay. How is your mother with your kids?

(0:38:42) speaker_1: Uh, she loves them. She, she loves them to death. She enjoys being a grandma.

(0:38:47) speaker_1: She wants to see them all the time, and she’s accepting them just as much as she accepted me growing up.

(0:38:53) speaker_0: And has your wife been interested in Korean culture, or have you wanted to incorporate into your family? Like food or things?

(0:38:55) speaker_1: Also, I mean, not a whole lot. You know, she enjoys Korean food a lot.

(0:38:58) speaker_1: Actually, when we first started dating, I remember she liked kimchi and I brought over a big jar of radish kimchi, and I remember coming by the next day and she had eaten half the jar.

(0:39:03) speaker_1:

(0:39:03) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:39:05) speaker_1: You know, for a period of time, I added some more Korean American friends, and we spent some time with them, and they were impressed by her enjoyment of a variety of Korean foods.

(0:39:13) speaker_1: And for the girls’ first birthday, we got them dressed up. We didn’t do like all the aspects of a first Korean birthday, but we did a little bit.

(0:39:33) speaker_1: And my mom, you know, like I said, is very Americanized, so had we not even done it, she probably wouldn’t have cared.

(0:40:53) speaker_0: Do you think your kids today will be growing up in a much more tolerant or accepting society than you were?

(0:41:01) speaker_1: I, I believe-

(0:41:03) speaker_0: In terms of race?

(0:41:03) speaker_1: I believe so. Omaha, it’s become a lot more diverse than when I was growing up.

(0:41:06) speaker_1: So when I was going through school, I was pretty much the only Asian kid in my class, and nowadays, that’s not the case.

(0:41:13) speaker_1: There’s a higher Asian population in the schools. And of course, representation in media is much better than it was in the ’80s and ’90s.

(0:41:21) speaker_1: But because they are half and I was looking for, you know, half Asian children’s books, and I didn’t really find a whole lot.

(0:41:28) speaker_1: So I actually wrote a children’s book for them that I self-published as well. And it’s called Kimchi or Bratwurst.

(0:41:35) speaker_0: Kimchi or Bratwurst?

(0:41:36) speaker_1: Yes. So…

(0:41:37) speaker_0: (laughs) Okay.

(0:41:38) speaker_1: The concept is, there’s a young half Korean girl who talks to the reader, says, “My mom and dad want me to cook something for dinner, and the first I saw was kimchi, and my dad’s Korean.

(0:41:47) speaker_1: ” And it kind of goes through a real brief history of what kimchi is and where it’s from.

(0:41:52) speaker_1: And then she sees a bratwurst like, “Oh, this bratwurst is from Germany, and my mom’s family is from Germany.” And then she’s like, “Now this crisis.

(0:41:59) speaker_1: What do I do? Because I want them both.” But then the idea is she figures out to combine the foods together and it makes something wonderful.

(0:42:06) speaker_1: And so that, the concept of mixing cultures can create something very special.

(0:42:10) speaker_0: I see it’s on Amazon.

(0:42:13) speaker_1: Uh, yes.

(0:42:13) speaker_0: It’s on the paperback. Well, congratulations. And-

(0:42:16) speaker_1: Thank you.

(0:42:17) speaker_0: What are you hoping this book… It sounds like it fills kind of a void out in children’s publishing.

(0:42:23) speaker_1: At least from what I can see. I mean, there are some other half Asian children’s books out there, but they seem more for a little bit older kids.

(0:42:30) speaker_1: For the age group that my daughters are in, I didn’t see any that I could find at least.

(0:42:35) speaker_1: And thankfully, you know, there’s a lot of other children’s books for Asian American kids that are available to them, but I kind of want to make one specifically for them since they are half.

(0:42:44) speaker_1:

(0:42:45) speaker_0: What age range is this book for?

(0:42:47) speaker_1: I would say from like, 2 to 12, basically.

(0:42:50) speaker_0: Age 2 to 12, so elementary?

(0:42:53) speaker_1: Yeah, elementary.

(0:42:54) speaker_0: Okay. What does your daughter think of the book?

(0:42:58) speaker_1: Um, she, she loves books, but she reads a lot of books.

(0:43:01) speaker_1: So sh- she, she likes it, although, of course she’s three, so I think appetites change quite a bit.

(0:43:07) speaker_1: So when she was one, she loved kimchi, she’d eat it like crazy. But now, when we go to the Korean restaurants, she goes, “I don’t like kimchi.

(0:43:14) speaker_1: ” So, (laughs) but she likes sausages a lot. So she likes the book, but I’d say it’s not, at this point, not on her heavy rotation.

(0:43:21) speaker_0: And your bio on Amazon says that you’re a passionate advocate for diversity.

(0:43:26) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. I am, because I grew up in a family that was incredibly diverse.

(0:43:31) speaker_1: My dad was a white man from the South and was older, so I grew up in a family that was both racially and generationally very different, and regionally very different.

(0:43:41) speaker_1: My job takes me to a lot of minority neighborhoods, so I’ve experienced a lot of diversity in my life, and I worked a lot with people with disabilities.

(0:43:52) speaker_1: That’s another population demographic I’ve been able to get to know closely.

(0:43:57) speaker_1: I do have another book that illustrates the ADA building code to make it more accessible and digestible for people, to make the world hopefully a little bit more accessible for people with disabilities.

(0:44:08) speaker_1: So the books that I have written so far, and hopefully continue to write, are to help make the world more acceptable and open doors to diversity.

(0:44:18) speaker_1: And hopefully that people can see different perspectives and make them more accessible.

(0:44:21) speaker_3: (instrumental music)

(0:44:28) speaker_0: Yeah, you said you’re a city planner, Wyatt?

(0:44:30) speaker_1: Yes. Uh, it’s a little bit of a misleading term.

(0:44:32) speaker_1: (laughs) So it’s not something where I’m mapping out the city and, you know, I’m in control of these big, big projects or zoning.

(0:44:39) speaker_1: I’m in, uh, the housing community development division of, of my department, so I’m mostly involved with housing rehabilitation, so that’s more of helping fix up older homes.

(0:44:49) speaker_1: And also, we have a program that helps make homes accessible for people with disabilities. So those are mainly the programs that I’m involved with.

(0:44:55) speaker_0: Okay. You know, with your name, Wyatt-

(0:44:59) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:44:59) speaker_0: … do people assume you’re adopted?

(0:45:01) speaker_1: Uh, I think that probably, ’cause people say like, like Wyatt Earp.

(0:45:06) speaker_0: Wyatt who?

(0:45:07) speaker_1: Wyatt Earp.

(0:45:08) speaker_0: I don’t know who that is.

(0:45:09) speaker_1: He was a sheriff back in the old West. There’s been a few movies that have been made about him.

(0:45:13) speaker_1: My mom’s ex-husband, he was the one who named me, and he liked Westerns and cowboys, so I actually am named after Wyatt Earp.

(0:45:20) speaker_0: A Korean American man.

(0:45:22) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:45:22) speaker_0: And your name, kind of having a quote unquote white name-

(0:45:25) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:45:25) speaker_0: … do people then bring up the adoption?

(0:45:28) speaker_1: Um, no, not really. Um, they’ll just kinda say, “Oh, I like that name.” Nobody ever really ties it to an adoption.

(0:45:35) speaker_0: Nobody asks you to explain your background?

(0:45:39) speaker_1: No. I would probably think that most people just assume that, ’cause me and my last name is not Korean. I think it’s more of an assumption.

(0:45:45) speaker_0: Okay, so people aren’t maybe, where you are, they’re not as blunt as being, uh, “Why do you have a name like that?”

(0:45:52) speaker_1: No.

(0:45:52) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:45:53) speaker_1: No. In my job, I visit a lot of people, I visit a lot of homes.

(0:45:56) speaker_1: I know that when I call people to say I’m making an appointment with them, and I say, “Oh, my name’s Wyatt, and I’m gonna come visit your home,” and I know that when I show up at the door, I’m probably not what they expected.

(0:46:06) speaker_1: And it’s never been said before, except for one time, and it was actually very, it was amusing.

(0:46:13) speaker_1: I went to go fix something for her, and I get there and she goes, “You’re Wyatt?” I say, “Yeah, I’m Wyatt.” She’s like, “You don’t look like you sound.

(0:46:19) speaker_1: ” (laughs) And I said, “Yeah, I know, there’s not too many Asian Wyatts running around.” But that’s the only time I actually really… Nobody’s ever-

(0:46:27) speaker_0: Did you ask her, “What does Wyatt sound like? What am I supposed to sound like?” (laughs)

(0:46:31) speaker_1: (laughs) Yeah. Well, I, I, she wasn’t malicious about it or anything like that, so I just more laughed, laughed about it with her.

(0:46:37) speaker_1: But you know, most people would think Wyatt is a very white name.

(0:46:42) speaker_0: Right. Well, Wyatt, I, I wanted to go back to, if you don’t mind-

(0:46:47) speaker_1: Sure.

(0:46:47) speaker_0: … you know, your, both kids it sounds like, right, they’re in vitro fertilization, but-

(0:46:53) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:46:53) speaker_0: … both of them are not your biological kids, right?

(0:46:57) speaker_1: Correct.

(0:46:58) speaker_0: Okay. You said that being adopted yourself-

(0:47:02) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:47:02) speaker_0: … you feel maybe in some way some kinship with your… Well, obviously they’re your daughters, but-

(0:47:09) speaker_1: Yep.

(0:47:09) speaker_0: … perhaps you might be equipped to help them?

(0:47:12) speaker_1: I think so.

(0:47:13) speaker_1: So before, when my wife and I were planning to have kids, I remember, and she remembers this very specifically too, I had said to her, you know, “I, it would be nice to, when we have kids, that I’ll have somebody that will be my own blood that I’ll be, you know, be able to have with me.

(0:47:29) speaker_1: “

(0:47:29) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:47:30) speaker_1: And then when we were given the news about my chromosomal issue that that, that was not gonna be possible anymore, she took it really hard ’cause she felt so bad for me.

(0:47:40) speaker_1: But for me, I actually took it quite well, surprisingly, because I had already knew that I could love a family and family members without being blood related.

(0:47:52) speaker_1: So even though I was very, I was very disappointed, I was able to move on from it pretty quickly.

(0:47:57) speaker_1: Whereas my wife actually felt, it was, it was harder for her to move on from that ’cause she felt so bad for me.

(0:48:03) speaker_1: And so I think when they’ll say, you know, “Well, we’re not blood related,” but I can say, “But, you know, I’m not blood related to your, your grandmother or my dad, but we loved each other incredibly.

(0:48:15) speaker_1: We’re a, a fantastic family, and there’s no reason why that can’t be the same for us as well.”

(0:48:23) speaker_0: Do you… You, you said up until this point, your mid 40s-

(0:48:28) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:48:28) speaker_0: … haven’t had a lot of curiosity or motivation to try to find your natural mother.

(0:48:35) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:48:36) speaker_0: Do you, do you think part of that is do you think your Korean mother, are you afraid you might upset her?

(0:48:41) speaker_1: Um, if I did do it, I probably wouldn’t tell my mom about it….

(0:48:45) speaker_1: I think it probably would upset her, and I think that, part of that goes to her abandonment history.

(0:48:53) speaker_1: So I think she might feel hurt that, you know, why, why do you need to find…

(0:48:57) speaker_1: Because you’re, um, um, you already have a mom, and I’m your mom, is probably what that she would probably feel.

(0:49:03) speaker_1: And that because she’s had so much other loss in her life, that’s, you know, she might feel hurt in the sense that, you know, a- am I abandoning her then for, for somebody else?

(0:49:14) speaker_1:

(0:49:14) speaker_0: Hmm.

(0:49:15) speaker_1: So if I did go on this journey, I probably wouldn’t tell my mom about it.

(0:49:19) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:49:20) speaker_1: If my dad were still alive, I know that he would be supportive of it, and he would have been fine with it.

(0:49:24) speaker_1: But I don’t think my mom would be able to handle it. She wouldn’t see it in a positive light.

(0:49:29) speaker_0: Okay. And with your kids not being biologically related-

(0:49:32) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:49:32) speaker_0: … it’s not something that you feel like seeking, uh, your Korean roots would be something you would do for your kids?

(0:49:49) speaker_1: Yeah. I never really thought about that, but then the way, when you just say it now, yeah, it’s something I…

(0:50:02) speaker_1: It would just have to be more for me than for them. I mean, I don’t think it would be…

(0:50:09) speaker_1: It, it would be so much more for me, and that would just be more of a minor factor for them, I would say.

(0:50:17) speaker_0: Sure, okay. Would you be open to your kids one day looking for their parents who, who donate?

(0:50:25) speaker_1: Yes. Yes, we would be. And there’s a lot of options in that world.

(0:50:30) speaker_1: We know that they will probably have quite a few half siblings, and then in a world of 23andMe, they’ll likely f- you know, find out w-

(0:50:38) speaker_0: Find out, yeah.

(0:50:39) speaker_1: Yeah. I believe with the sperm donor, at a certain point, they could have contact with them, uh, if I, if I remember correctly. And-

(0:50:47) speaker_0: And so the, the egg was also donated?

(0:50:49) speaker_1: Correct, yep. I can’t remember the, the exact privacy rules that were set in place by the donor as to whether or not she would be open to contact or not.

(0:50:58) speaker_1: But if our children wanted to go on that journey, we would be more than supportive of that.

(0:51:02) speaker_0: And so the, the donor can set the parameters?

(0:51:06) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:51:07) speaker_0: Okay. And then with the sperm donor, do you remember if he indicated he would be open to…

(0:51:12) speaker_1: I, I believe that was the case, yeah, that after a certain amount of time has passed by-

(0:51:17) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:17) speaker_1: … then he’s open to communication.

(0:51:20) speaker_0: And was that important to you when you were looking for donors, or wasn’t much of a factor?

(0:51:24) speaker_1: Uh, it wasn’t much of a factor.

(0:51:26) speaker_1: I think at, at that time, it was just more of a finding somebody that was healthy and matched what we were looking for physically.

(0:51:34) speaker_0: And so for parents who, their family was formed using in vitro fertilization, I know there’s some controversy, I guess, about the ethics of it.

(0:51:43) speaker_0: Do you-

(0:51:44) speaker_1: Sure.

(0:51:44) speaker_0: … you know, in terms of, like you said, your daughter could have quite a few half siblings?

(0:51:50) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:51) speaker_0: Um, how do you feel about that?

(0:51:53) speaker_1: We, we, we’re fine with…

(0:51:54) speaker_1: It’s, it’s more the fear, ’cause if there’s anything, you know, locally, there’s the, uh, hopefully she doesn’t meet somebody that she’s related to and, you know, has a, like a romantic interest with, obviously.

(0:52:05) speaker_1: But as far as meeting other siblings, you know, we, we hope that they… ‘Cause my wife and I, we come from small families, ’cause I’m an only child.

(0:52:15) speaker_1: My wife has a brother, and then her brother doesn’t have any children, so they’re not gonna have any cousins growing up.

(0:52:22) speaker_1: So we, we want them to have, um, and we actually hope that they find their half siblings so then they can form a larger family base, especially once we’re not around anymore.

(0:52:34) speaker_1: We want them to, to have that.

(0:52:36) speaker_0: Well, wise- Thank you for sharing. It’s quite a interesting and, you know, untraditional family.

(0:52:43) speaker_1: Yes. (laughs)

(0:52:44) speaker_0: Um, but adoption, also, not the traditional family.

(0:52:49) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:52:49) speaker_0: Um, what would you like people to know about family? How, how has your experiences informed your ideas around family?

(0:52:58) speaker_1: Um, you know, listening to your podcast too, and I, I wish that everybody had what I had growing up, ’cause I’ve, I know that everybody’s adoption story is, um, as fortunate as what I was brought into.

(0:53:11) speaker_1: I was very, very lucky to be brought into a family that was incredibly loving and then also had, um, you know, had, had means-

(0:53:20) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:53:21) speaker_1: … to li- to live comfortably. You know, family is, you do not need to be related and still put your life on the line for somebody and love them unconditionally.

(0:53:33) speaker_1: And I, I think about all the…

(0:53:35) speaker_1: For me to be here right now, and for my, my daughters to be here right now, and I also think about all the, the terrible things that happened in order for this to have happened, you know, my mom being abandoned, her first marriage not working out, you know, me, my birth father committing suicide, and then my mom giving me up for adoption.

(0:53:56) speaker_1: And then all that led to me being here, and then, you know, for my own chromosomal issues, for my daughters to be here.

(0:54:05) speaker_1: It’s an incredible set of circumstances that led us here, and the family aspect of it is that there’s a lot of tragedies and sorrow and sadness, but we remained loyal to each other and accepting of each other despite a lot of differences.

(0:54:25) speaker_1: My mom and my dad had a lot of cultural differences, but they came together and created a great environment for me to, to be in, and I hope to create a similar environment for my daughters.

(0:54:37) speaker_1:

(0:54:37) speaker_0: Oh, that was a beautiful way to put that, thank you. Anything more you wanted to, to say with it?

(0:54:46) speaker_1: Yeah, well… So for my own experience with Korean culture, there was…… in my youth, I, you know, I was…

(0:54:54) speaker_1: self-identity crisis, and then going into college, that was the first time I started becoming around more Korean Americans and befriending them, and becoming a lot more comfortable in my skin.

(0:55:05) speaker_1: And then for that time period in my 20s, I kind of, like, forcefully tried to involve myself more into Korean and Asian American culture and-

(0:55:14) speaker_0: Oh, you did?

(0:55:15) speaker_1: Yeah. I did try to learn, like, learn Korean. Started to, like, you know, listen to K-pop.

(0:55:21) speaker_1: Try to, like, watch more Korean dramas and shows, and I dove into that for a while.

(0:55:26) speaker_1: And even after graduating from college, I went to a, a Korean Catholic church here in Omaha, and, and all that w- was good, and I enjoyed that time period.

(0:55:36) speaker_1: But then after a while, I, I think I kind of just did level back off, um, to a point where I, I just felt so much more comfortable with who I was.

(0:55:45) speaker_1: Like, I didn’t need to be, I didn’t need to dive into Korean culture.

(0:55:49) speaker_1: I didn’t need to, um, try and force that into my life, and I can still be proud of it, still have it be a part of my life, but I didn’t need to force it any more than I needed to.

(0:55:58) speaker_1: That’s how I felt for myself.

(0:56:01) speaker_1: Um, so I still have, you know, some Korean friends, and, uh, so I have Korean culture as, you know, a part of my life, but I’m not forcing it any more than I think is necessary for myself.

(0:56:13) speaker_1:

(0:56:13) speaker_0: I see.

(0:56:13) speaker_0: So I’ve seen this happen myself as well, that once you kind of realize if you feel like the lack of Korean identity or cultural competency, if you feel like it’s a deficit that you wanna reach out and-

(0:56:29) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:56:29) speaker_0: … get it for yourself, you know? (laughs)

(0:56:31) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:56:31) speaker_0: Or, so, you can go into, you know, a lot of, uh, language learning and just diving right in.

(0:56:38) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Yep.

(0:56:38) speaker_0: But at some point, you realized that that wasn’t really who you were either.

(0:56:42) speaker_1: Correct. Yep. So it was, like, I’m, I’m not…

(0:56:45) speaker_1: I don’t regret any of that, obviously, but I came to realization that I didn’t have to try to be something that I wasn’t.

(0:56:53) speaker_0: And that’s really just about considering that your family, there’s a lot of difference about your family-

(0:57:01) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:57:01) speaker_0: … about yourself, that it sounds like you came to a, maybe a maturity, you know-

(0:57:07) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:57:07) speaker_0: … of realizing that you’re accepting yourself for who you are.

(0:57:10) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:57:10) speaker_1: And ’cause you know for a long time too, I was pretty, pretty shy and if you ask people about me now they probably still say like, “Wyatt’s pretty reserved,” but I’m way more outgoing than I used to be.

(0:57:20) speaker_1: And also, to a, a certain point too, I just decided, well, two things I would say.

(0:57:26) speaker_1: I would think about what are my insecurities and are other people thinking about that about me?

(0:57:31) speaker_1: Or what if I was somebody else looking at myself, would I be thinking about what he’s thinking about?

(0:57:36) speaker_1: And I’ve made, I came to realization like, no, people aren’t caring about what I’m obsessing over.

(0:57:43) speaker_1: And then also if they are, I came to a comfortable point and confidence point in my life, I said, “Well, I just don’t care what they think.

(0:57:50) speaker_1: ” I don’t, I don’t care what they… if they are thinking that, then their opinion doesn’t affect me one way or the other.

(0:57:56) speaker_1: And that helped, truly helped me become, you know, a lot more comfortable with who I am and whatever identity I choose to be.

(0:58:03) speaker_0: And so, Wyatt, just, uh, wrapping up here a bit-

(0:58:07) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:58:07) speaker_0: … you said that you had not really been that interested in searching for your bio mother, and that lately you had been thinking about it.

(0:58:15) speaker_0: What was the change?

(0:58:17) speaker_1: Uh, I think actually listening to your podcast. (laughs)

(0:58:20) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:58:20) speaker_1: It’s, well, I think because I heard so many more stories about it through your podcast, and it was just because, like I said, I, I kept telling myself it’d just be too hard, it’d just be too hard.

(0:58:31) speaker_1: But I think there probably are avenues that are more feasible for me to look into if I really wanted, if I actually just tried.

(0:58:39) speaker_1: Um, so I think now that I realize that there’s people that are there to help me if I want it to, I think that’s something that I was just probably more head in the sand about.

(0:58:50) speaker_1: And then listening to your podcast more than helped me realize, okay, if I wanna take my head out of the sand, I can do that.

(0:58:57) speaker_0: Well, it’s been wonderful having you, Wyatt, on the podcast.

(0:59:00) speaker_1: Thank you.

(0:59:02) speaker_0: What would you be most curious about if you ever were able to find your mother?

(0:59:08) speaker_1: Um, it, it probably…

(0:59:10) speaker_1: I don’t know how to, if I would want to even ask her if I did, but it would be, well obviously, you know, what was the catalyst that, or what was the ultimate reason why you decided that you wanted to give me up for adoption?

(0:59:26) speaker_1: And then questions about my father and like, you know, and more about them too, like their story. Um, how did they come together?

(0:59:35) speaker_1: And then ultimately, you know, what, what happened to him, you know, why did, why did he decide to take his life?

(0:59:40) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. These are such just natural questions that most people get answers to or know. (laughs)

(0:59:46) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah.

(0:59:48) speaker_0: It’s like-

(0:59:48) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:59:49) speaker_1: But also I realized, you know, from hearing other stories, ’cause I, I’ve met other Korean adoptees in my life, but we never really talked about it in depth and they just seemed kind of like they were just accepting of what their situations and, from what I could tell, hadn’t thought about it as much.

(1:00:05) speaker_1:

(1:00:05) speaker_0: Is there a Korean adoptee community in Omaha?

(1:00:08) speaker_1: Not that I’m aware of.

(1:00:10) speaker_0: Okay. So not, no meetups or-

(1:00:14) speaker_1: No.

(1:00:14) speaker_0: … that you’re, that you’re aware of?

(1:00:16) speaker_1: Not that I’m aware of.

(1:00:18) speaker_0: If you were to… I know you said Omaha’s more diverse now.

(1:00:21) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(1:00:22) speaker_0: If you were to see another Asian person about your same age-

(1:00:27) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(1:00:27) speaker_0: … you know, East Asian, would you assume they’re adopted?

(1:00:31) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, actually probably not.

(1:00:35) speaker_0: Okay.

(1:00:36) speaker_1: Because I have enough Asian and Korean American friends here that aren’t, so I, I, I probably wouldn’t assume that initially.

(1:00:43) speaker_0: Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Wyatt, if someone wants to get in touch with you or, you know, wants to chat, are you open to that?

(1:00:52) speaker_1: Sure, of course.

(1:00:54) speaker_0: How can they get in touch with you?

(1:00:55) speaker_1: I do have an author website, so it’s Books by Wyatt. The W-Y-A-T-T.com, so that would be my website and then there’s a contact there.

(1:01:05) speaker_1: I am on, I’m on Facebook as well just through my name or I also have an Instagram, uh, authors.

(1:01:11) speaker_1: Not too much on there right now but it’s Books_by_Wyatt with underscores between the words, so @books_by_wyatt on Instagram.

(1:01:18) speaker_0: And do you think you’ll write more children’s books?

(1:01:20) speaker_1: I hope to. I have a, an idea for a sequel to the concerned about worst story.

(1:01:26) speaker_1: So it’d be, involve another culture, probably with a friend that the character has and then, uh, the mixing of those cultures with a friend.

(1:01:34) speaker_0: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Wyatt.

(1:01:37) speaker_0: Uh, it’s been a pleasure getting to know you and hearing more about your family and thank you so much for sharing such personal details.

(1:01:45) speaker_0: I know it’s not easy to sometimes share all of the…

(1:01:50) speaker_0: Because like you said, there is a lot of sadness and pain that comes with and also the joy that you’ve been given for your, um, forming your family, families.

(1:02:02) speaker_0:

(1:02:02) speaker_1: Yes. No, thank you so much for having me on. It’s been a pleasure. I thank you for sharing my story and so many other people’s stories as well.

(1:02:11) speaker_1: Um, I, it’s, just for me, you know, it’s made a difference and I strongly believe that for so many others that your podcast has made a difference.

(1:02:20) speaker_0: Okay. Thank you. (instrumental music) Thank you so much, Wyatt.

(1:02:29) speaker_0: I am glad you’re on your adoptee discovery journey and I wish you all the best for you and your family.

(1:02:39) speaker_0: These stories aren’t easy for adoptees to go public with and it takes a lot of courage and an act of selflessness, frankly, to want to help others feel not so alone.

(1:02:52) speaker_0: Something you might not realize is as an interviewer and podcast producer, it’s also emotional work to help people unlock their story, help them feel comfortable, and gain some trust in the process.

(1:03:04) speaker_0: I’m glad you’re here. There are a handful of episodes left in this season.

(1:03:09) speaker_0: If you’ve valued the podcast for a while or even since 2016 when we started and would like to help us out financially to finish up the season, please consider becoming a supporter at patreon.com/adoptedpodcast.

(1:03:23) speaker_0: Later in June, we’ll be holding our supporters-only Zoom meetup with Korean American adoptee therapist and author, Camley Small.

(1:03:30) speaker_0: It will be a way for me to say goodbye to some of our most loyal listeners. Thanks also to everyone who has supported this podcast along the way.

(1:03:39) speaker_0: Shout out to new supporter, Hannah Lee, and a generous donation from Curtis J. Bonk. Jennilee Park provided audio production help.

(1:03:49) speaker_0: Yugeun Jeon is our volunteer Korean translator. I’m Kaomi Lee. See you next time. (instrumental music)

Kit Myers, 42, is a transracial Hong Kong adoptee and assistant professor in the Department of History & Critical Race and Ethnic Studies at UC Merced. In this interview, we talk about Myers’ search for his birth mother and feelings he’s had of having a ‘ghostly’ or ambiguous kinship with someone he doesn’t know. We also talk about his upcoming imprint, ” Violence of Love, Race, Adoption and Family in the United States.”

Audio available on May 24, 2024.

Instagram: abolish_and_build

Twitter: @MyersKit

(0:00:00) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays) Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 19 starts now.

(0:00:15) speaker_0: This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees. Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption.

(0:00:33) speaker_0: I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:37) speaker_0: Our voices have been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our adoptive parents and society that wants only a feelgood story.

(0:00:48) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that.

(0:00:51) speaker_1: Um, there’s this term of ambiguous loss for adoption, and people in foster care too, because there’s different types of ambiguous loss.

(0:00:59) speaker_0: This next episode is about a Hong Kong adoptee. I first met Kit Myers at an adoption symposium at the University of California, Irvine.

(0:01:08) speaker_0: His work in ethnic studies and critical adoption studies is helping to reframe and inform the dialogue about transnational and transracial adoption.

(0:01:19) speaker_0: Before we get to this episode, I just wanted to mention this podcast is free, but if you’re able and have enjoyed listening through the years, I’d like to ask you to consider becoming a Patreon supporter.

(0:01:30) speaker_0: For as little as a few dollars a month, you’ll receive early downloads of each episode.

(0:01:34) speaker_0: We are nearing the end of the podcast, but your support can help us complete episodes as we finish out seven seasons. Please go to patreon.com/adaptedpodcast.

(0:01:46) speaker_0: Thank you. And thanks to our current supporters, you are the best. Now, here’s the episode.

(0:01:57) speaker_1: My name is Kit Myers. My name as given at birth is Chan Wai Kit, and I was born in ’82, so I’m 42 years old, and I live in Merced, California.

(0:02:10) speaker_0: Okay. And, Kit, are you a, a researcher, professor?

(0:02:17) speaker_1: Yeah, both. Um, I’m a researcher and professor, assistant professor at the University of California, Merced.

(0:02:25) speaker_1: I’ve been at Merced since 2016, so this is my… I’m finishing up my eighth year there, and I’ll be going up for tenure.

(0:02:34) speaker_1: My book is coming out, and, um, so that’s, you know, that’s kind of actually what I need to, to get tenure is to publish a book in my field.

(0:02:42) speaker_1: Yeah, so I’m excited about all that stuff that’s happening.

(0:02:46) speaker_0: Okay. And what is your field?

(0:02:48) speaker_1: Uh, my degree is in ethnic studies.

(0:02:51) speaker_1: In undergrad, actually, I went to University of Oregon and I studied journalism and ethnic studies, and then I went to school-

(0:03:00) speaker_0: Oh, interesting.

(0:03:00) speaker_1: … I… Yeah, yeah, I continued with ethnic studies.

(0:03:03) speaker_1: I actually originally wanted to be a PE teacher at a high school because I just wanted, in my mind, like, the easiest, most fun job that there could be.

(0:03:11) speaker_1:

(0:03:11) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:03:12) speaker_1: And yeah, so I wanted to, like, teach PE and coach sports, you know, soccer and basketball. But I really fell in love with ethnic studies, uh, U of…

(0:03:21) speaker_1: University of Oregon, and sort of kinda continued on that path, in part by luck, because, you know, I got into two grad programs, but my two acceptances were, like, toward the tail end of the (laughs) the letters that I received.

(0:03:33) speaker_1: So for a while, I was, you know, I was unsure of what I would be doing.

(0:03:38) speaker_1: But yeah, I got into grad school and up for ethnic studies at UC San Diego, and was down in San Diego for a while, doing that.

(0:03:44) speaker_0: What did you find most interesting about ethnic studies?

(0:03:48) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean, you know, at University of Oregon, it’s a predominantly white campus. PWI, they call it, or predominately white institution.

(0:03:57) speaker_1: But even then, that was actually a very diverse space for me compared to Canby, Oregon where I grew up, which was less than 15,000 people and probably nearly 90% white with the largest minority population being Latinx folks.

(0:04:13) speaker_1: And so, yeah, when I got to U of O, it felt very diverse even though compared to a lot of other places, it wasn’t.

(0:04:20) speaker_1: And I took ethnic studies, I think, by chance, and I was just really pulled in by the histories that they were teaching, this idea that race was constructed was an incredibly fascinating ideas about racism.

(0:04:35) speaker_1: And eventually, you know, the more classes I took in African American studies and Native American studies, Chicano studies, and Asian American studies, like, they all just in different ways really were very, you know, eye-opening for me at that time.

(0:04:50) speaker_1:

(0:04:50) speaker_0: Yeah, I kinda remember too, like, my own kind of racial awakening I think was when I watched, um…

(0:04:58) speaker_0: I think we saw it in college, my undergrad, but we watched this series Eyes on the Prize.

(0:05:05) speaker_1: Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s a great documentary series. Yes, yeah.

(0:05:08) speaker_0: Yeah, and I just… You know, the civil rights struggle and, um-

(0:05:12) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:05:13) speaker_0: … and I, I think that’s when I really started to think deeply about race in this country, and you know, just social injustice.

(0:05:22) speaker_1: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, for me, it’s been a long process. I mean, I’m just constantly… I’m always learning still to this day.

(0:05:30) speaker_1: But something that looking back I realize that I learned, and, and what I teach in my class is just, like, the amount of intentionality that existed in these sort of things, and the way that society really went out of its way to create inequality and to maintain it.

(0:05:48) speaker_1: And when advances did happen, that most of the people weren’t on board with those advances, you know?

(0:05:55) speaker_1: A lot of people objected to them, and so it’s just always been a struggle, right?

(0:06:00) speaker_1: But what’s been inspiring to learn is the other side of that, is that communities have always been struggling and resisting to-…

(0:06:08) speaker_1: create belonging and to create community and, and those sort of things.

(0:06:12) speaker_2: And, uh, you’re not a Korean adoptee. Ca- can you tell us a little bit of your origin story?

(0:06:17) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah. It is funny. For a long time, I actually didn’t think to sort of disclose that aspect of my identity.

(0:06:25) speaker_1: Uh, I think people knew I was adopted in terms of being an adoptee researcher, but I just always forgot to explain-

(0:06:34) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:06:34) speaker_1: …

(0:06:34) speaker_1: where I was born, and so yeah, I was born in Hong Kong, and like I said, I was born in ’82 and then I was adopted in ’86, so I was almost four years old when I was adopted.

(0:06:44) speaker_1: And with Hong Kong, it was under sort of British rule for 100 years, so it kind of has this strong English influence.

(0:06:53) speaker_1: All the documents from the orphanage were in English.

(0:06:57) speaker_1: I have some medical records that are both in Chinese and English, and I, I actually have my birth certificate with a lot of information on it, with my mother’s name, the address that she lived at, and, and all that stuff is both in English and in, in Chinese, um, Cantonese.

(0:07:16) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:07:17) speaker_2: So you were born in ’82?

(0:07:19) speaker_1: Yeah, mm-hmm.

(0:07:20) speaker_2: Was it… It was no longer a British colony at that point?

(0:07:24) speaker_1: No, it still was. It, it was until ’98, I think. ‘9-, ’98 or ’97. The, the late ’90s, if, if my memory serves right.

(0:07:32) speaker_2: Oh, okay.

(0:07:32) speaker_1: It was, like, a 100-year sort of situation.

(0:07:34) speaker_2: Oh, okay. Yeah.

(0:07:35) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:07:35) speaker_2: And what were the politics going on at the time that you were relinquished or abandoned or do you… Or stolen?

(0:07:44) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:07:44) speaker_2: Do you know?

(0:07:45) speaker_1: Right. Yeah, it was from both the paperwork and… Yeah, I have quite a bit of records.

(0:07:51) speaker_1: I think part of that is because I stayed there a long time, but also, again, it was a weird situation where…

(0:07:58) speaker_1: Or, I don’t know, maybe it’s not weird for Hong Kong, but yeah, there’s this birth certificate and there’s a lot of information about my birth mother, and it was apparently that she was married and she had relationships with maybe two other people outside of the marriage, and so th- the…

(0:08:19) speaker_1: My father is not known and, and then the fact of sort of my existence was, um-

(0:08:27) speaker_2: Outside of marriage.

(0:08:28) speaker_1: Yeah, uh, being outside of marriage was… Especially her mom, my birth mother’s mom, was very upset about that and kind of forced the relinquishment.

(0:08:38) speaker_1: Um, yeah, so that’s kind of the main situation, and it seems to have been confirmed in many ways. I actually connected with my first cousins.

(0:08:48) speaker_1: I have four first cousins on my mom’s side, and I’ve met one in person and two over Zoom, and they…

(0:08:57) speaker_1: It’s, it’s all a complicated story, but they didn’t even know my mom existed, so they didn’t know that they had this, uh, this extra aunt until maybe, like, seven years ago, at which point the grandma dies, and at her funeral there’s a picture with the uncles, the two uncles and the aunt, and then also my mom.

(0:09:18) speaker_1: And so another cousin sees this picture and was like, “Who’s this woman who’s taking this family photo with our parents and our grandparents?

(0:09:27) speaker_1: ” And th- that’s when they’re like, “Oh, yeah this is an aunt and we don’t know where she is.

(0:09:31) speaker_1: ” And she seemed to be, um, both a secret, but also kind of truly not knowing w- w- where she was because when I connected with my cousins and two of them mentioned me to their parents and one of my uncles was very, um, not interested in me or his older sister, and so he didn’t want to continue that conversation.

(0:09:56) speaker_1: The, the oldest uncle, he did…

(0:09:58) speaker_1: You know, he was, I guess, quite emotional upon, you know, learning about my existence and, and then regretting that he had lost contact with his sister.

(0:10:08) speaker_1: But he had indeed lost contact with her and it had been a very long time since he had had any contact, so he, he didn’t know where she was or is.

(0:10:17) speaker_2: W- did you get the sense that your mother was a bit of a black sheep, or was she, um…

(0:10:22) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s… That’s kind of what the paperwork suggested and, and what the oldest uncle kind of s-…

(0:10:30) speaker_1: And I… He didn’t say that explicitly, but it’s… I mean, if you don’t know where your sibling is, it’s because they…

(0:10:37) speaker_1: You know, she either left or they kicked her out, or both-

(0:10:41) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:10:42) speaker_1: … is my sense. The other whole aspect of this thing is that, um… And it’s kind of temporally…

(0:10:48) speaker_1: And, and I know this is, like, kind of weird to bring it up at the beginning of the podcast, but essentially I’ve been searching for my mother since 2013 and I have all these clues that so many people don’t.

(0:11:03) speaker_1: And I went to her home address, I found out that that address…

(0:11:07) speaker_1: Like, my grandpa owned that flat or that apartment or, you know, that sort of unit from land records, and then I found out he’d died, and so then I found an uncle’s name through the death record of my uncle and the grandma’s name through the land records and…

(0:11:22) speaker_1: So I found all these different records and sort of identifying people, but I wasn’t able to locate her.

(0:11:29) speaker_1: And then through 23andMe is how I connected with one of my cousins who had taken a 23andMe test as well.

(0:11:36) speaker_2: Are they still in the US?

(0:11:37) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah, actually he is. He’s been living in Berkeley, two hours away from me-

(0:11:41) speaker_2: Wow, okay.

(0:11:42) speaker_1: … since… Yeah, since 2008.

(0:11:43) speaker_1: So this is all just a very unusual case because we have this situation where he’s been in Berkeley and he speaks fluent English.

(0:11:50) speaker_1: I mean, you wouldn’t know that he was not born here.

(0:11:52) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:11:52) speaker_1: And same thing with my other two cousins who are up in Vancouver, BC. They speak fluent English.

(0:11:58) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:11:58) speaker_1: And then there’s a fourth cousin who’s actually older than me and he lives in San Jose. So they’re all in the same time zone as me.

(0:12:04) speaker_2: You know, that brings up… Sometimes when you’re searching via DNA testing and the, the experts tell us, “Don’t reveal you’re an adoptee,” right away.

(0:12:14) speaker_2:

(0:12:14) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:12:14) speaker_2: How did you approach that?

(0:12:17) speaker_1: Um, well, yeah. I- it- it’s- in the DNA test, it showed first cousin, and I was like, “Wow, okay.” Um, and h- his last name was Chan, so, um-

(0:12:28) speaker_2: You must have been over the moon. That’s…

(0:12:31) speaker_1: Y- yeah. It was really shocking. I was kind of resistant to the idea of taking a DNA test at first because of, you know, the whole privacy thing.

(0:12:38) speaker_1: But my partner got me the test, and so I did it. But it took two years for him to (laughs) to realize that I had messaged him.

(0:12:45) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:12:45) speaker_1: And so there’s kind of like a two-year waiting period, and then finally one day, he just messaged me and said, “Yeah, all this information that you sent me and this message aligns exactly with my family.

(0:12:57) speaker_1: ” And so, of course, the DNA test said first cousins, and so he’s like, “Yeah, I think for certain, we’re first cousins.

(0:13:03) speaker_1: ” And so then eventually, he shared that picture that I was talking about. He had it-

(0:13:08) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:08) speaker_1: … and he, you know, sent it to me. And so I got to see a picture of my birth mom for the first time, and of course, you know, other family members and…

(0:13:16) speaker_1: Yeah, we- we got to Zoom a few times, and I’ve seen him in person, I think, three times now.

(0:13:22) speaker_2: What did you think when you saw the photo? And I mean, do you, do you see the family resemblance?

(0:13:27) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean, it’s funny because my mom and I, there’s a- a- a little bit of resemblance, but it’s not striking.

(0:13:36) speaker_1: I think the closest resemblance is with my grandfather. Yeah, I mean his… The face that he has is kind of like…

(0:13:44) speaker_1: It’s not the face I have now, but it was a face I had when I was younger.

(0:13:48) speaker_2: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:13:49) speaker_1: So, that was really interesting.

(0:13:50) speaker_2: And so they had a hunch already what branch of the family tree you were from potentially, right? Because you kind of pinpointed (inaudible)

(0:13:59) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And, um, I wasn’t too worried about revealing my adoptee status.

(0:14:06) speaker_1: I think the first time we had a Zoom meeting, um, he was kind of trying to feel me out and just-

(0:14:15) speaker_2: Like what your motivations were?

(0:14:16) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:14:17) speaker_1: If there’s any particular motivation outside of, you know, what I think most adoptees are trying to do, which is just like to find family and connect with them.

(0:14:24) speaker_1: Yeah, I think once we talked and he realized that I have a job and I have my own family and those sort of things, that he felt maybe more comfortable.

(0:14:32) speaker_1: And, you know, it is a difficult situation because I asked them, you know, different questions and I’ve asked them for assistance and maybe talking to their parents, but I also feel like those requests have to be a little restrained, right?

(0:14:49) speaker_1: Or, or timed in a particular way, just, just so that I don’t create any disruption or…

(0:14:56) speaker_2: What’s the sense that you got from them that they were a little bit hesitant to share?

(0:15:00) speaker_1: Um, I… Well, I mean, two of them have kind of unique circumstances, and, and one, I kind of hinted at it.

(0:15:08) speaker_1: Her dad had a bad relationship with my mom, and so he has very negative feelings about her.

(0:15:14) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:14) speaker_1: And so I don’t feel right sort of asking her to like probe there, and then there’s another, you know, the oldest uncle I still haven’t connected with, and I think he was going through something, so I didn’t want to like push to reach out to him.

(0:15:31) speaker_1: And so I’m just… I’ve been waiting to connect with him.

(0:15:33) speaker_2: And it wasn’t, it wasn’t offered either?

(0:15:36) speaker_1: Yeah. He, he hasn’t-

(0:15:38) speaker_2: Okay.

(0:15:38) speaker_1: … reached out. Uh, he knows about me, and he’s, you know, he hasn’t reached out yet.

(0:15:43) speaker_1: And, you know, the youngest cousin, he, he, um, he has his own sort of situation that he’s dealing with.

(0:15:50) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:50) speaker_1: And so he hasn’t told his mom about me. He’s told his dad about me, I think. Um, and so, you know-

(0:15:58) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:58) speaker_1: … it’s just…

(0:15:59) speaker_1: Everybody has a sort of unique circumstance, and I’m trying to, you know, make sure that I respect people’s situations and their boundaries and those sort of things.

(0:16:09) speaker_1: But at the same time, I do feel like…

(0:16:11) speaker_1: I think a lot of adoptees, uh, you know, you get in a situation where finally you’ve found something and then you, you want to get as much information as you can.

(0:16:20) speaker_1: And so it’s kind of this weird situation where I’ve gotten so much, but there’s still a lot of questions.

(0:16:28) speaker_2: Yeah. Oh, I can really, I can really feel for you because it is. It’s like, oh, the potential to meet living, you know, your mother’s siblings.

(0:16:36) speaker_2: You, you’ve got uncles-

(0:16:38) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:16:39) speaker_2: …

(0:16:39) speaker_2: alive, and yet it’s not such a straightforward thing where you have to sort of, when the time is right, take into consideration, you know, that DNA connects you with relatives, and you’re sort of relying on their help and assistance when they don’t really know you and the trust isn’t really built up.

(0:17:00) speaker_2: It’s just, it’s always just a, a fraught kind of situation because, you know, this information should be your, your right to know.

(0:17:09) speaker_1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

(0:17:12) speaker_1: And the part that I was actually getting at that I don’t think I (laughs) that I didn’t get to is that I’m going back to Hong Kong this summer, and, um, I was planning to do more retracing, and so I have two friends there, one who is an artist there and…

(0:17:33) speaker_1: An artist and a teacher, and she’s actually helped many Hong Kong adoptees search for their birth family, and I, I don’t actually know how she started this, but it’s something that she’s been doing for quite some time.

(0:17:45) speaker_1: And then another friend from my grad school days, he was an undergrad at UC San Diego, but he is from Hong Kong, and he’s now back in Hong Kong, and so the two of them have been helping me in the search, and what essentially I found out a little over a month ago is that we’re like almost 100% sure that, that my mom passed away, uh, in 1995.

(0:18:10) speaker_1:

(0:18:10) speaker_2: Oh. How did you find that out?

(0:18:13) speaker_1: Yeah. Well, we, we had sort of decided that we’re gonna do a death record search.

(0:18:20) speaker_2: Okay.

(0:18:21) speaker_1: Because-

(0:18:21) speaker_2: And you, you knew her name?

(0:18:24) speaker_1: Yes, I have her name on the birth certificate. And I had actually done a death record search before.

(0:18:30) speaker_1: Yeah, I’ve been to Hong Kong twice, and my memory is blurry, but I think the second time I went, that was 2015.

(0:18:36) speaker_1: I did a death record search, and I went 20 years back because it costs money for the record search the further back you go.

(0:18:44) speaker_1: Like, every five years you go back it costs more money.

(0:18:47) speaker_2: Oh.

(0:18:48) speaker_1: And so at that point I was just like, “Okay, if I go back, you know, 20 years, that should cover a good amount,” that would…

(0:18:54) speaker_1: I mean, because she would have had to die really young if she died before 20 years, before 2015.

(0:19:00) speaker_1: And so it didn’t produce anything, and so then I felt like, “Okay, maybe, yeah, she’s still alive but she’s just not wanting to be contacted or something.

(0:19:07) speaker_1: ” Because I’ve had… The Red Cross in Hong Kong actually helps with reconnecting family, and adoption is one of the areas that they do that for.

(0:19:18) speaker_1: And so, the- they’ve done some searching, and the immigration office and the adoption agency, they’ve all sort of done different things to try to locate her, uh, to no luck.

(0:19:31) speaker_1: So… We had agreed to do like kind of a full death record search. But for… Interestingly, they like went a different route.

(0:19:39) speaker_1: My artist friend knew this person at a cemetery, and they looked up the cemetery records and found someone with the same name and the same birthday as my, as my mom.

(0:19:50) speaker_1: And my other friend over there, he went to the headstone and took pictures of it, and even though I don’t have a more recent picture of he…

(0:20:03) speaker_1: Like, the picture I have is, is when she was younger. There, there is some… There’s resemblance there.

(0:20:09) speaker_1: So it’s like you have resemblance, you have the name, you have the birth date. That all sort of match up.

(0:20:18) speaker_2: What are the chances, Kit, that someone… It could be someone else with that same name and birth date? I mean…

(0:20:24) speaker_1: Yeah, right, and that’s why it’s like not 100%. It’s almost 100%, I mean…

(0:20:29) speaker_2: Because, is it like in Korea where a lot of people have the same name?

(0:20:34) speaker_1: Well, I mean, it’s like, it’s… Her name is Chan Ching Yee, so there’s three parts of her name. So it’s not-

(0:20:42) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:20:43) speaker_1: … like there’s just two parts of her name, so there’s that aspect. And…

(0:20:48) speaker_2: Is it a bit, a bit unique name?

(0:20:50) speaker_1: I don’t know like how unique it is. I mean, Chan obviously is not unique. But I’m, I’m not sure about the other part.

(0:20:57) speaker_1: But, you know, with the birthday and with the picture, it, it feels like it’s her.

(0:21:10) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays) And then, at that point, I was just like, um… You know, that’s like on April 1st that I found out, and-

(0:21:26) speaker_2: Oh, just this year?

(0:21:27) speaker_1: Yeah, just this year.

(0:21:28) speaker_2: Wow. Okay.

(0:21:29) speaker_1: And, uh, it… Like, that felt like, immediately like a loss. I mean, in part because my friend was like, “This is your mom.

(0:21:38) speaker_1: ” Like, there was, for him, there was no question.

(0:21:42) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:44) speaker_1: Um, and for the artist friend, it was like, “This is probably your mom. This is most likely your mom.”

(0:21:50) speaker_2: There’s a high probability.

(0:21:51) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah. And then, so we searched the death record. We, I mean, uh, sort… It’s kind of backwards, like…

(0:21:56) speaker_1: So we then go to the death record, and I thought it would triangulate and confirm some of the information that I had.

(0:22:02) speaker_1: But the death record has very little information on it.

(0:22:06) speaker_1: It has her name, and it has this surviving husband, which means she remarried, because divorced the person she was with when I was born.

(0:22:16) speaker_1: Right after I was born or right before I was born, she divorced that husband, who is not my father, and… But she got remarried.

(0:22:25) speaker_1: And so, on the death record is, you know, his name, the day she died, the cause of death, which said heart attack and cervical cancer, and, and she died at 42 years old.

(0:22:38) speaker_1:

(0:22:39) speaker_2: Oh, so young.

(0:22:40) speaker_1: Yeah. Which was also… You know, as I mentioned, I turned 42 on April 8th, so seven days-

(0:22:47) speaker_2: Right.

(0:22:47) speaker_1: … away, you know, myself from turning 42. And so it was just like this really… I mean, it was, it was sad, but it was like a reserved sort of sadness.

(0:22:59) speaker_1: And still is because I, I don’t know for certain if that’s her. And, and so it’s like this… There’s this ambiguity there.

(0:23:09) speaker_1: Um, and there’s this term of ambiguous loss for adoption, and people in foster care, too, because there’s different types of ambiguous loss, and then people who experience like their parents having Alzheimer’s.

(0:23:22) speaker_1: There’s these different types of ambiguous loss, but this, I, I…

(0:23:27) speaker_1: Is kind of for me in that category of just not knowing for sure if she’s passed, and then just this weird temporality of finding this out, you know, almost 29 years later, which is not typical, right?

(0:23:41) speaker_1: It’s not typical that you find out that the person who gave birth to you died 29 years earlier. So it’s…

(0:23:49) speaker_2: That-

(0:23:49) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:23:51) speaker_2: So, Kit, I’ll share a little that is similar in my story. Um, I recently found out that…

(0:23:57) speaker_2: Through DNA I found a half-sister, a bio half-sister who is also an adoptee.

(0:24:03) speaker_1: Oh, wow.

(0:24:04) speaker_2: But adopted to Denmark.

(0:24:05) speaker_1: Wow.

(0:24:05) speaker_2: And even though my paperwork has very little, her paperwork had information that her father died in 2013.

(0:24:15) speaker_1: Wow. Wow.

(0:24:15) speaker_2: So a few years ago, I found out. You know, it’s sort of like you.

(0:24:21) speaker_2: It’s, it’s not 100% confirmed, but most likely we share a father, and most likely, if her paperwork is correct, I learned that he died. So-

(0:24:31) speaker_1: Oh, wow. Yeah.

(0:24:33) speaker_2: How, how do you go about grieving? Or what’s been your process so far? I re- I realize it’s really just been, you know, a month or so- (laughs)

(0:24:42) speaker_1: Right.

(0:24:42) speaker_2: … that you’ve been going through this, but I mean, is it…

(0:24:46) speaker_2: It, it sounds like you’ve had a very kind of, um, engaged search for a while, and then to have this sort of be what you find out out of it, you know, it’s like, h- how do you process that?

(0:24:58) speaker_2:

(0:24:59) speaker_1: It is, yeah, it’s hard to process, and I’m sorry about your situation. I mean, yeah-

(0:25:06) speaker_2: Oh.

(0:25:06) speaker_1: … it’s very similar and that’s-

(0:25:08) speaker_2: It is what it is, I guess, right? (laughs)

(0:25:10) speaker_1: I don’t know. Yeah, I mean, it’s just, uh, it was a weird…

(0:25:14) speaker_1: (sighs) It was just a weird moment in, in my life in terms of the, like, the, the time I found out.

(0:25:21) speaker_1: It was, I was, like, finishing my book revisions that day. Like, they were due that day and it was this weird situation-

(0:25:28) speaker_2: Wow.

(0:25:28) speaker_1: … where my friend in Hong Kong from grad school, he messaged me the Friday before April 1st, and he’s like, “Hey, I have some information.

(0:25:38) speaker_1: I think I confirmed something.” And I was like, “Okay, uh, you know, what did you confirm?

(0:25:43) speaker_1: ” And, and he’s like, “Well, I think Winnie, our mutual friend now, um, she should tell you.” And I was like, “Okay. That’s, that’s kinda weird, but okay.

(0:25:53) speaker_1: ” And so I really couldn’t get a read on if this was, like, good news or bad news, and so I just left it at that, and he’s like, “Yeah, she’s gonna contact you soon.

(0:26:04) speaker_1: ” And then my wife was away and then she came back, and on April 1st I was telling her as we were eating lunch, and I was kind of breaking in the middle of the day because I had been working nonstop that previous week.

(0:26:16) speaker_1: ‘Cause April 1st was when all of the citations, and the acknowledgments, and formatting and all of that was due, so that was the next big deadline, and I’d been working, you know, probably 10 or 12 hour days for the last week on, on that.

(0:26:32) speaker_1: So I was taking a break on Monday and Ma, my wife, she, she had thought I was gonna be done on the 1st.

(0:26:40) speaker_1: So I tell her about this conversation through text that I had with my friend and she’s like, “I know what he’s talking about ’cause he actually reached out to me.

(0:26:47) speaker_1: ” And she said, “I told him that maybe you should wait until the 1st to tell him because he’s got this major deadline coming up.

(0:26:58) speaker_1: ” And so then I was just like, “Okay, this is even more weird because, you know, my wife knows this information,” and so then I was like, okay, you know, I trust her, and I had a hunch, and so I just said…

(0:27:12) speaker_1: I- it was kinda weird because I was like, I could ask her and she would tell me or I could just ignore it and just finish this book.

(0:27:20) speaker_1: And this book that I know that I’m gonna have to actually pull an all-nighter for because that’s just how much work I had left to do.

(0:27:28) speaker_1: And, uh, so I said, “Okay, I’m just gonna do one guess, and if I guess right, then just tell me the truth.

(0:27:35) speaker_1: ” And so w- yeah, we’re sitting at the lunch table and, you know, of course I, I guessed correctly that she had passed, and so, again, my wife thought, like, I was gonna be done on the 1st and that that would be the time to tell me, but essentially I learned about her passing at lunch and still had, like, 20 hours of work still to do.

(0:27:59) speaker_1: And so she and I kind of sat together and I, you know, cried for a little bit, and then I collected myself and worked for another 20 hours, and then I actually flew just a day and a half later to Rhode Island.

(0:28:14) speaker_1: There’s a Adoption Studies Conference in Rhode Island. I don’t know if you’ve heard of, about it, it’s the Alliance for the Study of Adoption and Culture.

(0:28:21) speaker_1:

(0:28:22) speaker_2: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:28:22) speaker_1: So yeah, it was like a whirlwind because before I knew it I was on the plane.

(0:28:27) speaker_1: I mean, I canceled class the next day, which felt much needed ’cause it was a weird situation where nobody knows who this person is, nobody’s met this person.

(0:28:36) speaker_1: I have no recollection of this person and I just have a name and some information about her.

(0:28:43) speaker_1: But of course, you know, finding that news out was, you know, devastating and, and so it was just weird, like, what do I do? Am I supposed to keep teaching?

(0:28:53) speaker_1: Am I just supposed to, like, you know, kind of, like, how do you treat this?

(0:28:58) speaker_1: And somebody in my department had just lost her mom and she, you know, she flew out of the country, back to her, her home country, and was doing class remotely and, and having us fill in and everything, and canceled class for the week.

(0:29:14) speaker_1: And so I was just like, “Okay.”

(0:29:18) speaker_2: Oh, right. As an adoptee, you-

(0:29:20) speaker_1: In, in this, in this situation. Yeah.

(0:29:23) speaker_2: Yeah. Do workplaces respect, or can we even ask for time off to grieve a birth family member?

(0:29:31) speaker_1: Yeah, and, and my chair is so supportive.

(0:29:33) speaker_1: He, of course, would’ve said absolutely yes, and I, you know, I actually just recently told him about her passing a few days ago, and he absolutely would’ve…

(0:29:44) speaker_1: But at the same time, it just feels weird and different because of the way that…

(0:29:50) speaker_1: We, we have never met my colleague’s mother, but we’ve heard about her, and we knew that she was sick, and we knew that our colleague had this s- you know, beautiful relationship with h- her mother.

(0:30:03) speaker_1: And so, you know, it’s just a different context.

(0:30:06) speaker_1: And so that was all very confusing, and then the conference was one in which I was co-organizing the conference, and so I was getting very little sleep and I was super busy.

(0:30:17) speaker_1: Um, it, it was-

(0:30:18) speaker_2: So in a sense you could bury your feelings and just, “I gotta-“

(0:30:22) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:30:23) speaker_2: “…apply to this conference.” I mean, is that what happened?

(0:30:25) speaker_1: It’s kinda what happened. I mean, I presented at the conference, and my presentation was kind of the conclusion of my book.

(0:30:32) speaker_1: And one of the things that’s in it is this concept of ghostly kinship of, you know, having kinship with ghosts.

(0:30:43) speaker_1: And there’s this idea that when we are afraid of ghosts, they are an absent presence.

(0:30:50) speaker_1: Which means they’re present but kind of in the background and, and we kind of make them disappear.

(0:30:57) speaker_1: They’re absent in the immediate sort of sense of things, but they’re always like this sort of seething presence that haunt, that haunt our lives, right?

(0:31:07) speaker_1: But I talk in the conclusion with Ghostly Kinship about what would it mean to, like, sort of invert that and produce a present absence?

(0:31:17) speaker_1: And, and that means to bring what is absent into closer proximity to us in, in whatever way we can.

(0:31:26) speaker_1: And so at the end of my presentation, I showed on, on the last slide, I, I had a picture of my birth mother and, you know, the, the headstone of her.

(0:31:38) speaker_1: Trying to, like, bring her into the room at that moment.

(0:31:46) speaker_1: So that, for me, was super emotional, but it, it, it felt like both part of the mourning and, you know, I don’t wanna say healing, but, uh, somewhat of a, a release I guess.

(0:32:02) speaker_1: I had been holding it in and work had been covering a lot of my emotions, so at that moment, at the end of the presentation, I was probably the most emotional I’d been since April 1st.

(0:32:17) speaker_1:

(0:32:18) speaker_2: You know, it seems to me that in that moment, the slide comes up, a room full of scholars at the edge of their seat, and it seems like in that moment, you did bring your ghost into the present.

(0:32:31) speaker_2:

(0:32:31) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s what I was trying to do. And I think, you know, a lot of people felt it certainly.

(0:32:37) speaker_1: I mean, I think everybody in the room, not everybody in the room is connected to adoption, but, but most of the people are.

(0:32:45) speaker_1: And so they, I think they felt it too, so. (instrumental music plays)

(0:33:13) speaker_2: Can you talk more about your book?

(0:33:16) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah. I’d love to. Um, the title of the book is called The Violence of Love: Race, Adoption, and Family in the United States. And-

(0:33:27) speaker_2: So provocative.

(0:33:28) speaker_1: Yeah, thank you.

(0:33:30) speaker_1: I mean, essentially what, in my earlier research of course all of us who are kind of have a critical lens on adoption understand kind of the harm that it can do and the trauma that exists-

(0:33:45) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:33:45) speaker_1: … um, and is attached to it. And how adoption is like this lifelong process and all of these things.

(0:33:53) speaker_1: But in a lot of the literature, it kind of talked about adoption as either being this good thing, like a lot of these outcome studies that-

(0:34:02) speaker_2: Mm. That they, they interview kids about their adjustment? (laughs)

(0:34:05) speaker_1: Yeah. They, they’ll either interview kids, like, in front of their parents or they-

(0:34:09) speaker_2: Right.

(0:34:09) speaker_1: … actually they survey the parents themselves, the adoptive parents-

(0:34:12) speaker_2: Right, about how their kids are doing. Yeah.

(0:34:14) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah.

(0:34:15) speaker_1: And those studies supposedly, you know, categorically or unequivocally proved, you know, quote unquote proved that transracial and transnational adoptions were a good thing, right?

(0:34:26) speaker_1: And that they’re beneficial, they’re good and, and loving and all of these things.

(0:34:30) speaker_1: And, and then of course there’s a lot of adoptees who are really critiquing that, and then there’s some scholars who are also critiquing that as well.

(0:34:37) speaker_1: And of course I lean toward the latter side, but I also wanted to look a little bit more deeply into this idea of love and how, you know, how do we get to where we are?

(0:34:50) speaker_1: Like, how did we get there? And how were adoption agencies, how was the government, how were adoptive parents imagining this thing that we call love?

(0:35:02) speaker_1: How were they practicing this idea of love?

(0:35:05) speaker_1: And then in both the imaginative aspect and the discursive and the sort of the practicing of, again, this thing called love, how was it always attached to violence?

(0:35:17) speaker_1: Whether violence was the condition that produced the need for love or whether violence occurred during the process of adoption or after that sort of official act had finished.

(0:35:32) speaker_1: And when we talk about how adoptive parents make parenting choices or dismiss their child’s feelings and experiences, you know, those sort of things.

(0:35:41) speaker_1: So essentially trying to think of the different levels that violence exists so I, I, I talk about structural violence and symbolic or representational violence and then traumatic violence though, to a lesser extent, because I think most people understand the traumatic part that’s attached to adoption.

(0:35:58) speaker_1: So there’s a number of lines that I look at and one of the threads is a comparative relational thread of looking at the children, uh, Asian, Black and Native American children, um, and those different histories and trajectories….

(0:36:43) speaker_1: so I talk about the sort of, these three different groups of adoptees, or adoptions, and then I’d, I’d look at the different layers of violence that I’d mentioned before.

(0:36:56) speaker_1: And so those are kind of the main themes in the book.

(0:36:59) speaker_2: Um, structural violence, would that be like societal pressures, cultural norms, expectations and reasons why a child would be separated from their family?

(0:37:12) speaker_2:

(0:37:12) speaker_1: Yeah, absolutely.

(0:37:13) speaker_1: I mean in a technical sense, and I kind of talk about this in my introduction, in a technical sense the way that I talk about structural violence in my course is that it’s the combination of ideological and institutional…

(0:37:29) speaker_1: You know, I talk mostly about race but I also talk about gender and sexuality and class, and so it’s the ideological and institutional aspects, right, that are combined over a period of time, and so it’s those things, those two things over a period of time that produce the structural aspect of racism, of patriarchy or hetero-patriarchy, of classism, and all those things.

(0:37:59) speaker_1: And so when I say structural, I mean that sort of in a very specific way. But it covers a lot, right? It covers all those things you said.

(0:38:08) speaker_1: So it covers how families don’t receive social support.

(0:38:12) speaker_1: You know, one of my chapters looks at the 1990s and federal legislation that’s passed in the United States, and even though adoption law is typically state law, because it’s family law, but there are a number of federal legislation that deal with adoption and a lot of them passed in the ’90s.

(0:38:33) speaker_1: So when you think about institutional, institutional aspects of racism, of classism, of sexism, all sort of operating, we think about welfare reform in the ’90s, we think about how there was an adoption tax credit.

(0:38:49) speaker_1: So here you’re giving money to adoptive families to adopt. And at that point, I think it was 6,000, you know, approximately $6,000 to adopt a child.

(0:39:03) speaker_1: So rather than using that money to support or keep a family together, we’re going to pay an adoptive family, right, to adopt.

(0:39:11) speaker_1: And it was supposed to encourage people to adopt from foster care, and it was supposed to encourage people who were maybe lower or middle class families to adopt.

(0:39:21) speaker_1: But ultimately, the tax credit has really just helped upper middle class and wealthier families to adopt, primarily overseas.

(0:39:29) speaker_1: And of course, you know, the number of overseas adoptions or transnational adoptions has declined but when we talk about the adoption tax credit, the people who are, you know, taking advantage of it the most were at the highest end of what was allowable in the tax structure.

(0:39:47) speaker_1: And so yeah, when I talk about structural violence, I’m talking about that, I’m talking about the Supreme Court case for, that challenged ICWA.

(0:39:56) speaker_1: There’s two Supreme Court cases that challenged ICWA, the Indian Child Welfare Act.

(0:40:01) speaker_2: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:40:02) speaker_1: Those type of things, yeah.

(0:40:05) speaker_2: And Kit, are you a transracial adoptee as well?

(0:40:07) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah. My parents are white and, um, I have a brother who is not adopted and, um, but we, you know, I have a good relationship with them.

(0:40:18) speaker_1: I would say that it’s the disclosure about what my research was about, that was much more recent. I had a lot of anxiety about that.

(0:40:27) speaker_1: My relationship with them otherwise was really, you know, pretty good. I guess relative to a lot of families, like we-

(0:40:35) speaker_2: But you were…

(0:40:36) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:40:36) speaker_2: You were worried about their reaction?

(0:40:38) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we enjoy hanging out with each other and I call my parents almost on a weekly basis, and… But we don’t really talk a ton of politics.

(0:40:48) speaker_1: I mean, my area of research, of course, is controversial.

(0:40:52) speaker_2: Critical adoption

(0:40:54) speaker_3: are.

(0:40:55) speaker_1: Yeah well, and ethnic studies in general.

(0:40:57) speaker_1: You know, I have my, I teach a class on race and law and I, you know, I teach about the construction of race and the history of racism and all of these things.

(0:41:05) speaker_1:

(0:41:05) speaker_2: And like many transracial families, you’ve just learned not to talk about race.

(0:41:09) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean I don’t completely avoid it but…

(0:41:13) speaker_2: At home.

(0:41:13) speaker_1: Yeah, but, um, it doesn’t come up often just because I get such little time with them that I don’t want to spend all my time sort of teaching ethnic studies to my parents.

(0:41:26) speaker_1: But I think they’ve grown a lot, I mean, on their own in some ways, and I finally did disclose to them, like, what my research was about, and again it was very, it was this area of anxiety and I started, like, going to therapy again because of it.

(0:41:44) speaker_1: And so yeah, I finally did it this last winter break and it was a big relief to kind of tell them what the title of my book was and kind of the general ideas of the book, and that what I’m talking about, you know, doesn’t reflect my feelings about our family or this desire that I wish I wasn’t adopted.

(0:42:07) speaker_1: Certainly I think I still have, you know, these questions of, “What would my life have been had I not been adopted?

(0:42:13) speaker_1: ” And I think a lot of adoptees have that, uh, th- those questions.

(0:42:17) speaker_1: Um, and of course some adoptees do wish they hadn’t been adopted and so that’s essentially what my book is trying to capture.

(0:42:24) speaker_1: It’s trying to capture the wide range of experiences that people have and, um, the way that in those wide ranges, like, that violence is always attached to adoption no matter how much love is infused into the idea of it and the practice of it, that…

(0:42:48) speaker_1: You know, there’s just a, a multitude of layers in which violence is causing adoption, is, is sort of producing adoption or, or, or occurring alongside it or coming after it, and, and even happening outside of it.

(0:43:04) speaker_1: And, and when I say, like, the violence that happens outside of adoption is, you know, the example of how adoption is a privileged form of immigration.

(0:43:13) speaker_1: And so, when we talk about adoption as this loving form of family-making, a lot of people, I think, agree with that, but then we look at how other families who are trying to come to the United States and they have a much more difficult time, right?

(0:43:28) speaker_1: And then they’re labeled as illegal and all of these different things that…

(0:43:33) speaker_1: The, the way that we construct adoption and adoptive families produces violence even outside of the realm of adoption.

(0:43:43) speaker_2: Mm. What was their reaction?

(0:43:45) speaker_1: Their…

(0:43:46) speaker_1: Yeah, their reaction was, um, y- you know, I think the ini- the very, very initial reaction, sort of, a- and actually I don’t know this for sure, but kind of reading my mom’s face, it felt like s- sh- you know, she was sort of trying to, she was trying to wrap her head around of, you know, “What does this title mean?

(0:44:06) speaker_1: ” And, and maybe the title kind of being a little stab in the heart maybe? Um, but i- the more I talked about it, it, and it kind of happened in two moments.

(0:44:19) speaker_1: Once kind of in a shorter conversation the first day we’d gotten together for that winter break, and then later at another conversation, uh, when it was actually just the four of us, and when I say the four of us, my parents and my brother, at a lunch, and it had been such a long time since the four of us had been together, just the four of us with, like, no spouses and no children, just the four of us, and I really couldn’t remember the last time that that had happened.

(0:44:47) speaker_1: And so, yeah, my mom just asked me this question of, “I know that you’re both going through a lot this year, and, you know, what can we do to help you in this upcoming year?

(0:44:57) speaker_1: ” And so I took the opportunity just to, to tell her that, “I, I’ve written this book.

(0:45:02) speaker_1: ” A- and again, I’d already told her, but, uh, it was just kind of revisiting it and, and going a bit deeper and just saying, you know, “I’ve written this book and, you know, the best way to support me at this moment would be to, to take the book in the way that I’ve tried to write it, which is to try to be…

(0:45:20) speaker_1: to be loving, ironically, but critical.

(0:45:23) speaker_1: ” And, and, and I think that for, for them, they, you know, they knew that I still love them, and I th- for them, that’s like, you know, that’s kind of the bottom line.

(0:45:35) speaker_1: And so whatever’s in the book, I think they, they, I think are excited to read it.

(0:45:40) speaker_1: And my mom was questioning whether she would even understand anything in the book, and I told her I, I hope she would read it and, you know, would be able to get some stuff out of it.

(0:45:52) speaker_1: And I tried to write it for a broader audience and not just the academic audience because, for me, this is, you know, something that I want social workers to read, of course, adopt- adopt- adoptees and foremost, but, you know, adoptive parents, social workers, psychologists.

(0:46:07) speaker_1: I, I, I would want as many people who are connected to adoption to read it because it tries to sort of, you know, lay out this history that a lot of people have talked about in different ways, but I try to bring in these three histories of the adoption of Asian, Native American, and Black children to, sort of together in conversation with each other, and I talk about positive adoption language, and I talk about these federal laws and, and looking at the congressional hearings and how legislators were talking about adoption and, and the laws themselves.

(0:46:41) speaker_1: And then I talk about international law, the Hague Adoption Convention, and then I talk about the Supreme Court cases, like, like I mentioned.

(0:46:51) speaker_1: So, those are the main sights that I look at.

(0:46:54) speaker_1: I also sort of open and conclude with my time working at a summer camp for adoptees as an example of some of the different ideas that I’m talking about, so there’s a lot of examples in there that I think help illustrate this idea that, this framework that I’m trying to put forth.

(0:47:11) speaker_1:

(0:47:11) speaker_2: Well, it’s, it’s an important book. I can’t wait to read it myself. And it really gets at this… (sighs) There’s the tension in adoption, right?

(0:47:24) speaker_2: So, as adoptees and as, uh, critical adoption scholars and thinkers, you know, you can think of adoption under a critical, intellectual lens, and then on the other side of it, we have our adoptive families, we have our families.

(0:47:39) speaker_2:

(0:47:39) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:47:40) speaker_2: And in a way, it’s sort of like separating ourselves, you know, we’re detaching, for example, our families and then really putting adoption under the necessary critical lens it needs to, because that’s our truth and that should be investigated.

(0:47:58) speaker_2: And at the same time, then we’ve got our families and our family relationships and that sort of acknowledgement that we’re, that we’re all kind of agents or, or parents or agents, but actors, we’re all party to this system and we all have different roles in them, and, and so it, it is difficult to have these conversations, like, on the one hand, you know, I can love my family and at the same time, I can look at adoption and look at it as a system and as a social injustice.

(0:48:37) speaker_2:

(0:48:37) speaker_1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. H- like, you know, how do we hold those two things-

(0:48:43) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:48:43) speaker_1: … uh, together and how do we sort of disentangle the……

(0:48:49) speaker_1: story that we sort of know about adoption, and think about the future and what we could do differently in the future.

(0:48:59) speaker_1: And yeah, there’s a lot of aspects that make adoption just a really difficult topic to talk about. And so, yeah, I’m hoping that the book will…

(0:49:09) speaker_1: Could, could be a res- you know, o- one of the many amazing resources.

(0:49:13) speaker_1: You know, there’s just so many in terms of whether it’s poetry or the children’s books and, that are coming out as different forms to look at adoption and to really think about it in a, in these deeper ways.

(0:49:27) speaker_1: And the memoirs that have been coming out as well.

(0:49:30) speaker_1: And now, th- there’s really, with your podcast and I know there’s other folks who are doing podcasts to have avenues to talk about the complicated nature of it.

(0:49:40) speaker_1: Because of course, a- again, you know this, that adoption is reduced and simplified to this very specific idea when it’s much more complicated than that.

(0:49:52) speaker_1:

(0:49:54) speaker_2: What do you…

(0:49:55) speaker_2: Well, for example, there’s so many folks like you who are transracial international adoptees, who are creating leading bodies of work and really bringing forth new ideas or taking ideas and making things clearer, bringing things into the light.

(0:50:16) speaker_2: And are you seeing that maybe the collective way we think about adoption is changing?

(0:50:24) speaker_2: I know that’s a big, you know, (laughs) statement to make, but I’m wondering if the needle is changing in, we call this dominant narrative about adoption, and so much scholarly research and memoirs and also just, um, court cases coming out (laughs) about adoption.

(0:50:46) speaker_2: Just wondering if your sense of it is that the discussions around adoption are changing.

(0:50:53) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great question.

(0:50:55) speaker_1: I mean, I think on a wide scale, that the dominant narrative of adoption still holds, and you see that a lot of times in media still, and the way that people talk about it, or the way that people sort of talk about it on social media when they respond to adoptees who post-

(0:51:13) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:13) speaker_1: … or are, you know, challenging the norm or, uh, as you’ve seen, flipping the script.

(0:51:19) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:20) speaker_1: A- a- and of course, so we see those responses and that there’s a lot of people who are still unexposed to the different realities and truths of adoption.

(0:51:29) speaker_1: But then, of course, there’s like these gigantic…

(0:51:31) speaker_1: And I wouldn’t even call them pockets, ’cause I feel like pockets is too small, but there are these areas and realms where things are starting to change.

(0:51:41) speaker_1: And I mean, I think about the family policing system, and the University of Houston, their social work program has taken an abolitionist mission to its school, and it’s a graduate school for professional social work school.

(0:51:56) speaker_1: And so they are now training social workers to think about abolition and think about the child welfare system or the child protective system as a family policing system.

(0:52:06) speaker_1: And so, the, the fact that you can get an institution of higher learning to take that approach is, that’s a big thing.

(0:52:15) speaker_1: And of course, the dean of that school did get fired, but the mission still exists, and so I think there’s anxiety around that direction.

(0:52:24) speaker_1: They created an academic journal, um, an abolitionist journal.

(0:52:28) speaker_1: And then you look at some of the organizations that are doing work and they are starting to, um, think about new ways of creating permanency and, and relationality and care that don’t always look toward adoption as the best option.

(0:52:49) speaker_1: And so I think that, in those ways, there is quite a bit of movement.

(0:52:53) speaker_1: Not a systemic movement, but there’s certainly a lot of people who recognize that the way that we’ve done things is really harmful to children, most importantly, but also, of course, to families who are separated for different reasons that are typically due to poverty or racism, hetero patriarchy, and all of these things that are in fact structural, right?

(0:53:15) speaker_1: And so I think a lot of people are starting to recognize that and trying to figure out ways to support families as opposed to facilitate the breaking up of families.

(0:53:24) speaker_1:

(0:53:24) speaker_2: Kit, is your book available for pre-order and where can people buy it, and then also how can they contact you if you’re open to being contacted?

(0:53:35) speaker_1: Yeah. The book is supposed to come out like at the end of 2024, early 2025. It’s not up on the website yet.

(0:53:42) speaker_1: It’s through University of California Press, and the reason I went with them is because they have an open access plan that you can do, and so I’ve, I’ve chosen the open access route, so it’ll be available for free online to anybody who wants to-

(0:53:56) speaker_2: Wow.

(0:53:57) speaker_1: … online. And it can als- it, it’ll be available-

(0:53:59) speaker_2: It can be purchased as well.

(0:54:01) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah.

(0:54:02) speaker_2: Okay.

(0:54:02) speaker_1: In every sort of typical outlet.

(0:54:04) speaker_2: Okay.

(0:54:04) speaker_1: But yeah, it’ll be available online, and I, I’ll certainly be posting about it on my social media outlets, which is really, it’s Instagram and Twitter.

(0:54:12) speaker_1: Instagram is called Abolish_and_build, abolish and build with some underscores in there, and then I think the Twitter is just myerskit, @myerskit.

(0:54:25) speaker_2: Okay. And folks can check our Adapted Podcasts Instagram and website also. I’ll publish the right handles-

(0:54:34) speaker_1: Cool. Perfect.

(0:54:34) speaker_2: … for Kit too. So, okay, well, Kit, it’s been a pleasure.

(0:54:39) speaker_1: Thanks for having me.

(0:54:39) speaker_2: Thank you for taking the time out from your family on this weekend, and I’m really glad I got to meet you at a symposium on adoption at UC Irvine, and you know, all the best.

(0:54:51) speaker_2: I hope I’ll run into you again.

(0:54:54) speaker_1: Yeah. It was so wonderful to meet you there, and thank you for reaching out about this podcast.

(0:54:59) speaker_1: And I’ve been listening to various episodes that you’ve had, and, and you’re just, uh, you’re an amazing interviewer-

(0:55:06) speaker_0: Oh, thank you. (laughs)

(0:55:07) speaker_1: …

(0:55:07) speaker_1: and, uh, just the way that you’re able to, like, kinda capture what people have said and then sort of ask follow-up questions that really sort of help reveal super important connections and all those things.

(0:55:20) speaker_1: So, you’re very skilled at what you do, and, and I really appreciate the work that you’re doing to put this out there for our community.

(0:55:26) speaker_4: (instrumental music)

(0:55:38) speaker_0: Thank you, Kit. We eagerly anticipate your book coming out in early 2025. Thanks also to new patron supporter, Heeji Jacobs.

(0:55:50) speaker_0: I want to also plug an online kimjang, or communal kimchi-making event, coming up on June 1st.

(0:55:56) speaker_0: The six-hour course will allow you to learn how to make kimchi in your own home with your own utensils.

(0:56:02) speaker_0: We will also take several breaks, so you won’t actively be in class the whole time.

(0:56:07) speaker_0: Korean adoptee community leader, Holly McGinnis, will facilitate the kimjang, and help us process our grief and joy of being adopted Koreans who are reconnecting to our heritage.

(0:56:19) speaker_0: It’ll also be special as the group will be very intimate. There will be an added bonus of tea from Jirisan shipped to you.

(0:56:28) speaker_0: But you have to act now while we have time to mail out the tea. Go to our Instagram page to find out more. Until next time, I’m Kaomi Lee.

(0:56:37) speaker_4: (instrumental music)

I continue my conversation with Nik Nadeau, a Korean adoptee who reunited with his Korean birth mother years ago, and who is still learning more about her and himself in the process.

Audio available May 10, 2024.

(0:00:00) speaker_0: (music plays) Welcome to Adapted Podcast, season seven, episode 18 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:17) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:26) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our adoptive parents, and society that wants only a feel good story.

(0:00:37) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that.

(0:00:40) speaker_1: I would say the high point for me wasn’t necessarily the first time I met my mother. It was maybe like the, um, I don’t know, the eighth or tenth time.

(0:00:49) speaker_1:

(0:00:49) speaker_0: This episode is the second part of a conversation with Nik Nadeau, and about his reunion journey.

(0:00:55) speaker_0: If you haven’t heard part one, I highly encourage you to listen back on episode 17 before continuing.

(0:01:02) speaker_0: This podcast is free, but if you’re able and have enjoyed listening through the years, I’d like to ask you to consider becoming a Patreon subscriber.

(0:01:12) speaker_0: For as little as a few dollars a month, you’ll receive early downloads of each episode. Please go to Patreon.com/AdaptedPodcast.

(0:01:21) speaker_0: Thank you, and thanks to our past and current supporters. You’re the best. Now here is the episode.

(0:01:29) speaker_1: My name is Nik Nadeau, Korean name Im Chang Hun. I live in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. My pronouns are he/him, and I’m 36, uh, going on soon on 37.

(0:01:42) speaker_0: I, I wonder if, um, if it was frustrating to you or difficult to sort of become closer to your oma through another, through a third person, in understanding her story more, and answering the questions, you know, the burning questions you have, you know, it’s coming through interpretation, through an interpreter.

(0:02:07) speaker_0: And, and yet, uh, juxtapose that with your birth mom- mother’s need for a physical closeness, and your need for more maybe an intellectual closeness, or a- an emotional closeness.

(0:02:22) speaker_0: I wonder, can you talk about that? Is… Am I off track here or…

(0:02:26) speaker_1: By the time my wife, my future wife and I, uh, met my birth mother together, um, you know, I’d known my birth mother for, uh, nine years. I had, um…

(0:02:38) speaker_1: By that time, I think I was just beginning to feel a little more comfortable, uh, and a little more accepting of, of who I am, of the fact that my Korean isn’t fluent.

(0:02:52) speaker_1: Uh, sometimes it’s not even great or good, but it’s, it… I- I worked really hard, you know, to, to build up the proficiency that I have.

(0:03:01) speaker_1: I spent a lot of money and a lot of time, uh, as well.

(0:03:05) speaker_1: And I, I distinctly remember her asking, you know, kind of, uh, her version of the question that you just asked, and I…

(0:03:12) speaker_1: and you know, how I felt, um, about her supporting me in this way or being with me in this way, because you know, we, we’d only been together about six months.

(0:03:20) speaker_1: And, um, I told her something to the effect of, you know, it just, it just felt really natural. It felt really normal. It felt okay.

(0:03:31) speaker_1: And, um, you know, looking back on that week, uh, now, I mean, we’re, we’re just coming up on our third year anniversary of being married, um, and about, you know, six years of knowing each other that, that…

(0:03:44) speaker_1: Coming out of that trip, that was the turning point, I think for both of us, for different reasons, where we both realized that, um, we could make for really great life partners.

(0:03:55) speaker_1: We could make, um, for a, a couple that is able to support each other in really, uh, unique, uh, but meaningful ways.

(0:04:04) speaker_1: And for, for me, it wasn’t just her, her language skills.

(0:04:08) speaker_1: It was her ability to, to navigate, uh, in an emotionally attuned way, a conversation that, uh, pretty much everyone else I know would, would have either sweated out or just completely, you know, uh, been fried from.

(0:04:24) speaker_1: She, I mean, she was a little tired, but she wasn’t all that drained. I… She, she was someone who…

(0:04:32) speaker_1: I don’t even know, uh, you know, my, my closest of closest friends, I don’t know if they could have lasted that long, nor would I have expected them to.

(0:04:40) speaker_1: And so, um, you know, I, I felt very confident-

(0:04:43) speaker_0: Eight hours, yeah.

(0:04:44) speaker_1: … especially coming out of that trip, that this is someone that, uh, I felt I could potentially build a life with. Um, so, so I would get…

(0:04:53) speaker_1: I would say that’s my first way of answering your question.

(0:04:57) speaker_1: Um, but I, I think a different, um, lens for me now, especially that, um, that she and I are now married is, is that during the course of, of getting to know my wife, I’ve also gotten to know myself and, and really invested in, in working with an incredible, uh, therapist who is also an adoptee and understands, um, adoption, uh, as a form of trauma, understands, um, kind of what my needs were at every stage over the last five to six years, um, that I’ve worked with this therapist.

(0:05:29) speaker_1: And, uh, during that time, I think I’ve also realized that, um, for me, Korea now in my mid-thirties, still not late thirties, mid-thirties, is that, um, Korea is, is mostly just about family now.

(0:05:43) speaker_1: Um, my wife and, and her family, my birth family, um, and, and going back. She and I are going next month. Um, you know, it, it, it’s to see family.

(0:05:55) speaker_1: Um, it’s hopefully about more than that. Hopefully we can find some time to enjoy our vacation too. But, um, adoption and Korea used to be-…

(0:06:04) speaker_1: I think so much more intertwined, uh, uh, in- in a kind of chaotic way with- with so many other feelings. And- and it still is.

(0:06:12) speaker_1: It’s- I’m not saying that I’ve somehow emotionally graduated from that or I’m just magically above all of that. N- you know, far from it.

(0:06:21) speaker_1: But my wife, I think, is someone who, uh, I don’t necessarily even view as, like, this third entity or this third-party translator or interpreter, even a cultural one.

(0:06:31) speaker_1: She, um, I think in many ways, uh, is so attuned to who I am that, um, she, um, she kind of sees me coming before I- I see me coming, and she sees, in many ways, my birth mother coming now, um, uh, emotionally or, um, you know, otherwise, and- and can really navigate those conversations, um, just so naturally.

(0:06:56) speaker_1: And- and yeah, I’m really grateful for that.

(0:06:58) speaker_0: You know, so as- as we’ve said, you know, 14 years of- of being in reunion, what would you- what would say is, like, the- the high point for you, and- and however you define that, and, um, h- has there also been disappointment?

(0:07:15) speaker_0:

(0:07:15) speaker_1: You know, I would say the high point for me wasn’t necessarily the first time I met my mother. It was…

(0:07:23) speaker_1: Maybe, like the, um, I don’t know, the eighth or tenth time, when it- it was just feeling like a halfway normal routine.

(0:07:31) speaker_1: It- it f- just felt like, um, “This is what I do when I have the time,” and when she is able to make time too. She has a family and a schedule.

(0:07:43) speaker_1: Uh, it felt, um, you know, in those, especially around 2010, 2011, it just felt like this was something that I could rely on and that she could rely on as well, uh, until, you know, I don’t know, another life stage or another change.

(0:08:01) speaker_1: And then, um, you know, I think a- a really…

(0:08:05) speaker_1: A low point, uh, or a disappointment, I wouldn’t call it a disappointment, but, you know, the last two weeks have been, um, by sheer coincidence to- to this conversation, uh, have been some of the most difficult I have ever experienced.

(0:08:22) speaker_1: Um, not necessarily due to my own, uh, experiences, but to my birth mother’s and realizing, um, what she is going through right now, uh, on a- on a lot of levels, um, I think is- is devastating.

(0:08:39) speaker_1: Uh, it’s really devastating for me to process.

(0:08:43) speaker_1: Um, you know, I’m trying to sort of evaluate, uh, you know, how to not overshare but still kind of capture what this is like, because I think it’s really important for adoptees, either who are in reunion or are considering a birth family search or who are just wondering, you know, what it can be like.

(0:09:02) speaker_1: Certainly, there’s all kinds of experiences, but I think one of them is that, um, adoption, by definition, uh, takes a family that otherwise may have had a chance of being a functional one, and it makes it a dysfunctional one.

(0:09:16) speaker_1: Adoption is violence. Uh, it is a usurping.

(0:09:21) speaker_1: It is, um, very much a- a physically and emotionally violent event, and that event as, uh, as trauma is not a one-time thing.

(0:09:33) speaker_1: It’s an ongoing, uh, lifetime experience.

(0:09:37) speaker_1: And, you know, uh, I would love to advocate, uh, and I plan to advocate for my entire life for what that means as an adoptee.

(0:09:48) speaker_1: I also want even more, um, for folks, including adoptees, to learn about the experiences of parents, and not just birth mothers, birth fathers too, birth parents, uh, family members, of what it is like.

(0:10:04) speaker_1: Um, the way I describe it in my writing is essentially to, you know, uh, complete one’s family by destroying another’s.

(0:10:14) speaker_1: And that is not, uh, to say that I personally (laughs) uh, hold this against my adoptive parents. Uh, I don’t.

(0:10:21) speaker_1: Um, I think I- I just read a post, um, recently from Angela Tucker who said, you know, “The- you can have both truths at once.

(0:10:30) speaker_1: ” You can, um, really criticize, and in many ways hate, uh, the adoption system and- and the way that it destroys families, the way that it exacerbates inequities, the way that it, um, uh, essentially is a form of legalized human trafficking.

(0:10:47) speaker_1: And- and you can also hold those beliefs without, um, hating your adoptive parents or your adoptive family, without necessarily hating the life you have, without, um, in many ways feeling that you’re okay with the life that you have.

(0:11:01) speaker_1: And I think, um, all of those truths are held kind of simultaneously for me. Um, but a low point I would say has been the past two weeks.

(0:11:13) speaker_1: I, um, I have realized just how much, uh, how alone my birth mother really is.

(0:11:20) speaker_1: And without going into too much detail, um, that- that loneliness is not, um, is not just social and societal, although it certainly is.

(0:11:35) speaker_1: Uh, it’s also a loneliness of, uh, having a son, having access, uh, to me, having the linguistic ability to navigate conversations with me, as imperfect as they are.

(0:11:48) speaker_1: Uh, she has my KakaoTalk, she has my phone number. She doesn’t use email, but she has that too.

(0:11:53) speaker_1: So, uh, I think some of the disappointment or some of the- the sadness and grief is also in present tense of having every channel available and still feeling that, um, you’ve lost someone, still feeling that you haven’t quite……

(0:12:09) speaker_1: reclaimed them that you never may be able to in the way that you wish. And, and on both sides, for me and for her.

(0:12:18) speaker_1: And I think, um, there is a new, I think, kind of deeper layer of grieving that she and I are both going through.

(0:12:26) speaker_1: Um, maybe more accurately, that she has been going through for quite some time.

(0:12:32) speaker_1: And I, uh, am grieving because I feel guilty for not understanding until now, uh, and also, um, really broken that she has been in this place for this long.

(0:12:46) speaker_1: Um, and I, I, I, I just wish, I wish I could be there to physically give her a hug every day (laughs).

(0:12:53) speaker_1: Um, I don’t even think I’d be able to call her every day.

(0:12:57) speaker_1: There’s so much, uh, about her life that, um, makes it really tough, and about my life (laughs) that makes it really tough, about time zones and language barriers that make it tough, about secrecy.

(0:13:10) speaker_1: And I think one of the things that, uh, I would just really say to anyone who may still hold the view, probably (laughs) not many of your listeners, Kayomi, um, but, but folks who, who t- tend to think of adoption as a really rosy, um, beautiful thing, um, it’s not.

(0:13:28) speaker_1: It’s really not.

(0:13:30) speaker_1: And that doesn’t mean that it is 100% always wrong to, quote unquote, “celebrate adoption,” but adoption is, is one of those things, um, it, you know, it’s a permanent, uh, event that resulted from conditions that maybe or maybe not were permanent, you know, um, poverty or, uh, uh, domestic violence or just, uh, you know, adverse circumstances.

(0:14:04) speaker_1: They, they sometimes are able to improve.

(0:14:08) speaker_1: And I think what I, what I really wish is for my birth mother to have had that chance, um, to, uh, to allow herself to, to keep me.

(0:14:19) speaker_1: Um, that doesn’t mean I don’t want to be here. It doesn’t mean I, you know, wouldn’t do anything for my adoptive family here.

(0:14:26) speaker_1: It just means that right now, um, my focus and my grief, my commitment and f- and, and challenge to myself is, is really centered on my birth mother right now.

(0:14:38) speaker_1:

(0:14:38) speaker_0: You were saying that, you know, at times, you had hoped you could meet your, uh, half siblings, and, and that never, that never happened, and that the secrecy, you know, has been something you’ve also had to accept.

(0:14:56) speaker_0: Um, and, and-

(0:14:59) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:14:59) speaker_0: … you’re just talking about the, the-

(0:15:02) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:02) speaker_0: … you know, just extreme burden it probably has been on your birth mother to, uh…

(0:15:08) speaker_0: She must know that you, she can’t give you everything you want, um, being full transparency in her life about you.

(0:15:16) speaker_0: That’s got to be a burden too, and, and then on your side, trying to be understanding, but there’s still probably a, a hurt there that she can’t fully, uh, acknowledge you.

(0:15:31) speaker_0:

(0:15:31) speaker_1: I think the hurt is multidimensional. There, there are so many things she wishes she could do for me or provide for me.

(0:15:43) speaker_1: Um, and I think also, um, woven in is, is some degree of self-preservation, right?

(0:15:53) speaker_1: Like, um, I think many parents who, uh, for one reason or another, you know, have to r-…

(0:16:00) speaker_1: And I, I hate (laughs) that word relinquish, but I’ll just use it for the lack (laughs) of a great alternative.

(0:16:06) speaker_1: There, there’s a lot of, of decent ones out there, but, you know, for my mother, I think, um, relinquishing me wasn’t just once.

(0:16:18) speaker_1: Just as for me, the event of adoption wasn’t just a one-time event.

(0:16:24) speaker_1: Um, I myself am realizing more and more how, uh, that relinquishing, it just, (laughs) just like any form of trauma, it, it resurfaces. It’s a cycle.

(0:16:36) speaker_1: It, it, um, it repeats itself.

(0:16:40) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, for her, I think, um, not being able to allow me to introduce myself to my half siblings, I think was a way that she had to preserve, uh, what she did have, whether she, she liked that situation or not.

(0:17:01) speaker_1: Um, and I understood that. You know, we, we talked all throughout that summer in 2016.

(0:17:08) speaker_1: Um, I don’t know how I pulled the Korean (laughs) skills out of my…

(0:17:13) speaker_1: I, I had just finished, uh, supervising a Korean immersion program that summer, so I, my Korean was probably at its peak.

(0:17:22) speaker_1: But it’s still, I think more than any linguistic proficiency, was just this emotional readiness of I’m ready to confront her, um, and I’m not afraid that confronting her is going to lead to her re-abandoning me.

(0:17:39) speaker_1: She’s not gonna leave me. It’s going to be okay. I’m going to, uh, you know, hold my ground. And, uh, I think…

(0:17:49) speaker_1: And the way it turned out is, um, you know, she essentially said when, when my half siblings are 30, (laughs) um, that they’ll be ready and, and we can, we can reengage the conversation from there, but right now, they’re just not ready.

(0:18:02) speaker_1: And what she, you know, she didn’t verbally spell out what she meant by ready or gave, you know, she didn’t give a definition, but I understood what she meant.

(0:18:12) speaker_1: Uh, what she meant is they, um…… they may not forgive her.

(0:18:17) speaker_1: They may see this as something that is actually, (laughs) you know, a, a, a sin or a, a, you know, a secret that she’s held that they hold against her.

(0:18:27) speaker_1: Um, she’s always had a, a fairly, um, you know, fragile, on a string relationship with both of them, from my understanding.

(0:18:36) speaker_1: She’s, uh, at minimum, she’s constantly concerned about, um, you know, uh, her ability to be close with them, and, and I think, uh, that made sense to me.

(0:18:48) speaker_1: Um, what didn’t make sense to me was the 30 part. (laughs) I th- I think both of them are, are, um, are now past that. Uh, s- I’m not gonna …

(0:18:57) speaker_1: read that into face.

(0:18:58) speaker_2: Oh, she had, she had given an age? Like she could be-

(0:19:01) speaker_1: She has. She said, you know, once they turn 30, they’ll be, they’ll be ready. Um, (laughs) I, I still don’t quite know.

(0:19:07) speaker_1: I mean, 30, you know, especially at that time was, you know, a common age where if you turn 30, you’re ready to get married or you need to get married as soon as possible.

(0:19:14) speaker_1: Um, but it, it wasn’t about that. I think it was just about their emotional maturity, um, she said wasn’t there yet.

(0:19:22) speaker_1: Um, and, and I, you know, we haven’t revisited that conversation. I do write a lot about it.

(0:19:29) speaker_1: Uh, I also write a lot about my birth father, um, um, and his refusal to see me.

(0:19:34) speaker_1: And I think, you know, my mom is doing her best, and I don’t think that’s me sort of just defending, uh, a mother as a son tends to do.

(0:19:46) speaker_1: I, I think, uh, I see and I know a little more than I did even two weeks ago about, um, what her best really looks and feels like.

(0:19:54) speaker_1: And right now, for a long time, her best has just been trying to survive every day.

(0:20:00) speaker_1: Um, trying to, to make ends meet, trying to, um, find some semblance of normalcy. Uh, and, and for that, I think she deserves all the credit in the world.

(0:20:13) speaker_1: I think if there’s one heroine in this story, it’s her.

(0:20:16) speaker_1: If it’s, uh, someone who, uh, will probably be invisible to most and, and will need to stay, uh, far outside of, of the public eye and the p- and the, you know, the, uh, the public kind of consciousness, she, she deserves all the credit in the world for being, um, strong enough to, to make it this far.

(0:20:36) speaker_1: And, um, you know, that’s what I think about right now. And there will be a time where I reengage. There will be a time where I fight for that.

(0:20:47) speaker_1: Um, I still would like to meet them.

(0:20:49) speaker_1: Um, the only thing I know is we figured out pretty early I couldn’t just like pretend to be their English tutor ’cause we look so alike.

(0:20:57) speaker_1: (laughs) So we ruled that one out.

(0:20:59) speaker_1: That’s not, that’s not gonna, um, be, uh, you know, in the playbook, but we’ll, we’ll have to come up with something else.

(0:21:05) speaker_3: But I died before I’d forget you. I watched the years go by with nothing but clouds in my mind.

(0:21:24) speaker_1: She’s going through a lot right now.

(0:21:25) speaker_3: And did for quite some time. But they can’t erase the pain inside.

(0:21:26) speaker_1: And, um, you know, I didn’t really know, uh, the extent of, of what she was going through.

(0:21:33) speaker_1: Um, she also, I think, felt, uh, a lot of shame around, you know, telling me. I mean, there’s just a lot going on right now, um, for her.

(0:21:43) speaker_1: And, um, after a few weeks, uh, several weeks of, of not really replying to messages, very simple messages in Korean just letting her know my wife and I were coming, she, uh, literally just last week, she called my wife, um, on KakaoTalk and she, uh, I mean, she just explained, you know, why she didn’t feel able to talk.

(0:22:04) speaker_1: She didn’t really, uh, get into every single detail. I think we’ll, we’ll figure a lot of this out when we visit.

(0:22:12) speaker_1: Um, but she did share some pretty, um, concerning details about her current situation. And, uh, and then sh- uh, I talked to her.

(0:22:21) speaker_1: Um, you know, I advocated for, um, myself and said, “Look, I, whatever you’re going through, I just need to know that you’re there.

(0:22:31) speaker_1: Even if you just send me a quick message, hey, uh, a lot’s going on, I can’t talk, but I’ll get back to you. That’s all I really need.

(0:22:40) speaker_1: ” Um, and after that, uh, you know, um, she had explained a lot to my wife where I didn’t want to make her re-explain, you know.

(0:22:48) speaker_1: But, uh, what I did realize is that she just wants more of me.

(0:22:53) speaker_1: You know, she wants, um, she just wants m- uh, more communication, uh, more sharing, more normalcy.

(0:23:00) speaker_1: And, and whether or not I can always provide that, um, I have been trying, uh, certainly, but I think there’s a new layer of depth that we’re both seeking, and, and I think we’re getting there now.

(0:23:14) speaker_1: Um, uh, unfortunately due to the circumstances that I, I wouldn’t wish on anyone, but I think through those circumstances, through that hardship, uh, a new kind of avenue of communication has opened up, both linguistically and emotionally for us.

(0:23:29) speaker_1: Um, and I think we’ve both been ready for that.

(0:23:32) speaker_1: I think we’ve actually been preparing for that and wanting that for some time, and this just happened to be how we got there.

(0:23:41) speaker_1: Um, so, um, it’s not a, it’s not a rift between us. It’s more of like she, um, she and I, I think are trying to figure out what we want to do now.

(0:23:53) speaker_1: Um, I have technically the ability to, um, be in Korea, uh, for more than just a week a year certainly.

(0:24:01) speaker_1: Um, my wife and I both, um, you know, are open to moving to Korea again. We’ve been talking about that for quite some time. Nothing drastic.

(0:24:09) speaker_1: Uh, no, you know, no drastic decisions now. Um, but for reasons that are beyond my birth family and my wife’s family, we, we both want to be back in Korea.

(0:24:17) speaker_1: Um, and so I think these conversations are happening in the context of……

(0:24:25) speaker_1: uh, a lot of other things, of career decisions, of, of, um, you know, money decisions, you know? We’d probably be taking a pay cut to move to Korea.

(0:24:36) speaker_1: Um, well, almost certainly. I mean, wages in Korea are lower, uh, factoring in the (laughs) exchange rate, like almost certainly.

(0:24:44) speaker_1: Um, you know, raising kids in Korea. We’re not decided on kids yet, and would that be a factor?

(0:24:50) speaker_1: Um, you know, um, you know, my wife would feel a lot more at home. Um, I certainly linguistically would be at an advantage, but I’d have her.

(0:24:59) speaker_1: Um, you know, what do we, what do we want?

(0:25:02) speaker_1: Uh, and I think this is just the messiness of, of being in your 30s and also, um, I think what I’d really like to, to leave, you know, your listeners with is this notion that it’s okay to choo- it’s okay to set priorities and to choose certain priorities over others, including your birth family.

(0:25:23) speaker_1: It’s okay to not prioritize your birth family. It’s okay to not prioritize your adoptive family.

(0:25:31) speaker_1: It’s okay sometimes even for a while, uh, hopefully a very small amount of time, to not prioritize yourself if one of those family members or multiple family members need you in a certain way.

(0:25:41) speaker_1: Um, but I think there’s, um, and I hope this conversation, uh, through this conversation, I haven’t unintentionally given the impression that, you know, for me, birth family is everything.

(0:25:51) speaker_1: It’s, it’s not.

(0:25:52) speaker_1: Um, it’s, it’s a huge part of my life, uh, my mother and my uncles and, and even the family members that I probably will never be able to meet, but it’s not all of my life.

(0:26:03) speaker_1: It’s not the only factor in any decision I make. Um, and I’ve had to really come to accept that. I’ve had to be okay with that. Uh, and I am.

(0:26:12) speaker_1: I think I can confidently say now, uh, that I am, and, and now I’m just choosing for myself.

(0:26:20) speaker_1: Uh, I’m choosing what I need, and that’s always informed by what my birth mother needs, by what my parents here need, um, but more than anything, what my wife needs.

(0:26:31) speaker_1: My wife and I, uh, are my priority now, and I think, um, frankly, I’m, uh, in a weird way, I’m really excited.

(0:26:40) speaker_1: I’m excited for what decisions my wife and I make together moving forward. I think we have a lot of really interesting options.

(0:26:48) speaker_1: Uh, a lot of them involve healing, um, with our respective families.

(0:26:53) speaker_1: And, um, and that’s not (laughs) something I’m, like, looking forward to, you know, like a really good TV show.

(0:27:00) speaker_1: But it’s (laughs), um, it’s something you look forward to because you’re ready. You look forward to healing because you’re so sick of not healing.

(0:27:10) speaker_1: (laughs) You’re so sick of not making progress.

(0:27:13) speaker_1: And when you do sense, um, that you’re ready and that the other person is ready, that circumstances are allowing you to be ready, yeah, I think, I think I’m ready, uh, in a way that I haven’t felt ready in a long time, to, to choose, um, whatever my wife and I are, are, are most comfortable choosing for ourselves.

(0:27:33) speaker_1: And, um, and I’m just so, I’m so fortunate that, um, I have the ability to have conversations like this, Kayomi.

(0:27:44) speaker_1: I’m so, uh, we’re so, um, rich with, uh, with the podcast and the conversations and the community that you’ve helped create.

(0:27:51) speaker_1: So I just want to say thank you.

(0:27:54) speaker_1: Um, I also want to say, um, you know, uh, it’s, it’s also a discursive burden to, um, to navigate conversations, um, you know, that aren’t your own.

(0:28:06) speaker_1: And so, you do a marvelous job, um, at hosting every one of these conversations, so I just want to say thanks.

(0:28:12) speaker_4: Well, uh, a- and I’ll- thank you to you too, Nick, for this gift of this conversation.

(0:28:19) speaker_4: Um, it’s, I re- I realize it’s not easy to, you know, um, talk this, about these personal details about Reunion.

(0:28:28) speaker_4: But Reunion is deeply personal and it’s also-

(0:28:32) speaker_1: Oh, yeah.

(0:28:33) speaker_4: … something that, you know, whether we’re in reunion or not, um, it’s something that is, uh, just like, uh, the relinquishment for adoptees.

(0:28:47) speaker_4: The relinquishment, it is something we always live with. So does-

(0:28:52) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:28:52) speaker_4: So is reunion or the fact that we can’t reunite.

(0:28:56) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:28:56) speaker_4: That’s always with us, so.

(0:28:58) speaker_1: 100% yes.

(0:29:01) speaker_4: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:29:02) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:29:02) speaker_1: And in fact, this is where I really struggle to share my story sometimes because, um, there are so many (laughs) adoptees that I know personally, uh, that are unable to, to find and locate their families, um, and, uh, aren’t able even sometimes to, um, having found their families, to, to make it work past that, uh, discovery and, uh, everywhere in between.

(0:29:27) speaker_1: And so I think, um, wherever you’re at as an adoptee, wherever your circumstances are at, um, you know, I think, uh, the most important thing is, uh, I’m kind of a nerd, so I’ll quote Gandalf here, you know, from Lord of the Rings.

(0:29:43) speaker_1:

(0:29:43) speaker_4: (laughs) Me too.

(0:29:44) speaker_1: It’s just, uh, you know, the, to, to make the most of the time that we have.

(0:29:49) speaker_1: Um, I, I think, uh, you know, it, it certainly was more eloquent than that, but we just have to decide what to do with the time that we’re given, I think is the line.

(0:29:59) speaker_1: And for me, um, it’s become a lot more simple now, um, and a lot more clear.

(0:30:06) speaker_1: And, uh, I think that’s a result of working on myself and also understanding and stumbling a lot, (laughs) um, uh, leading up to this point, and that’s okay.

(0:30:18) speaker_1:

(0:30:18) speaker_4: Will you be, you’ll be starting a podcast?

(0:30:20) speaker_1: I will be. So, uh, my wife and I are, uh, gonna be…… launching something soon.

(0:30:28) speaker_1: Um, uh, we’re still working out the concept, uh, but for now I think the concept is going to center, uh, in some way around reunion and post-reunion, not necessarily be defined by that, um, but offer, uh, uh, kind of stories, examples, but also, like, even just language tips, um, given that my wife is bilingual.

(0:30:51) speaker_1: And very, um…

(0:30:52) speaker_1: she’s not a translator, (laughs) um, by trade, but, uh, you know, she’s willing, um, to, uh, kind of discover, help me discover, uh, in many ways for my own situation, you know, what phrases, uh, could be most helpful from a language standpoint in Korean, but also, you know, emotionally, um, and also culturally all, all in one.

(0:31:15) speaker_1: Um, so I want to talk about the post-reunion experience, but I also want to talk about what it’s like to, um, navigate adoption as an adoptee, uh, when, uh, you are trying to balance so many different things at once.

(0:31:32) speaker_1: Um, career, family, um, geography, and I think for me, uh, that’s something I’m always interested in exploring, especially from the standpoint of, of access to mental health.

(0:31:45) speaker_1: You know, not everyone has the opportunity to speak with a therapist who, uh, is, uh, either an adoptee themselves or really understands and has an expertise in adoption as a form of trauma, and I think that’s, uh, frankly what I wish more people were able to…

(0:32:04) speaker_1: I wish everyone had access to that.

(0:32:07) speaker_1: Uh, and so, um, through my podcast, I, I hope to, uh, at least, uh, allow those types of conversations, uh, to flow, uh, in ways that hopefully will be helpful and engaging.

(0:32:18) speaker_1:

(0:32:18) speaker_0: Nick, did you want to read anything? Not the poem to, to be published, but is there anything you wanted to read of yours?

(0:32:25) speaker_1: Oh, that’s so generous of you. Yeah, so I’ll actually read, uh, a poem that I haven’t mentioned yet.

(0:32:33) speaker_1: Uh, I wrote it, uh, during a workshop, uh, led by the great Carolyn Holbrook here in the Twin Cities in Minnesota.

(0:32:43) speaker_1: Uh, and the prompt was to, uh, think of an image, uh, and, uh, let that image kind of carry you through emotionally in a way that makes you question kind of your assumptions about what that image might mean or your understanding of what that image might mean going into it.

(0:33:02) speaker_1: So, with that prompt, uh, I wrote a poem called Full Spectral Band. Burning stars is redundant to say.

(0:33:14) speaker_1: By definition, a star converts energy, gas to flame, flame itself the invisible made exothermic, luminous. A flame begins and ends non-luminous.

(0:33:30) speaker_1: At first, a zone before the blue until, and at last, a veil capping the yellow we all aim for when blowing out.

(0:33:40) speaker_1: I wish you could love me as a stargazer loves the full spectral band, all temperatures, atom by atom, so you could see not just the color of the soot, but the pure element from which it began.

(0:33:56) speaker_1: The atmospheric pressure, the level and type of gravity that sculpted its shape as a flame that is also a star, radiant not because you breathed it to life, but because all else tried to extinguish, yet it survived.

(0:34:14) speaker_1:

(0:34:15) speaker_5: Tell me what’s the point of me staying? Why did you have to

(0:34:23) speaker_0: Thank you. I love that. Nick, um, and this is great too, reconnecting after Fulbright. Shout out to Fulbright.

(0:34:31) speaker_0: (laughs) Um, if s- folks want to get in touch with you, um, or follow you, what, where can they look or?

(0:34:39) speaker_1: Yeah, so my current Instagram is @nikchanghoon. That’s N-I-K-C-H-A-N-G H-O-O-N.

(0:34:46) speaker_1: Uh, my wife and I are in the process of, um, still figuring out our, our, uh, social handles for our own podcast, um, but I’ll be glad to share in the future, or else, um, you know, listen, we’re, we’re all community.

(0:35:01) speaker_1: I’d love to have you on, um, and return the favor, uh, and, and-

(0:35:06) speaker_0: Yes, definitely.

(0:35:07) speaker_1: … um, you know, we’ll, we’ll definitely get there. It’s gotta launch first. (laughs)

(0:35:11) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:35:12) speaker_1: And then, um, you know, I, I also want to say that, uh, you know, there are so many voices right now that are so inspiring, um, you know, and I, I just wanna, you know, give you credit for, um, being really early and building that foundation, uh, that I think so many others, including me, benefit from, um, and so, uh, this podcast is a stellar example of that.

(0:35:38) speaker_1:

(0:35:38) speaker_0: Thanks for saying that, Nik.

(0:35:40) speaker_5: (rapping)

(0:35:51) speaker_0: Thank you so much, Nik. And we’re looking forward to hearing your podcast coming soon. Thanks also to Jacqulyn Wells for your glorious music.

(0:36:02) speaker_0: To learn more, go to jacqulynwellsmusic.com. That’s J-A-C-Q-U-E-L-Y-N-W-E-L-L-S music.com. Until next time, I’m Kaomi Lee.

(0:36:16) speaker_5: Please just say you don’t need me. Say, say, say you don’t love me. Say you don’t love me anymore. Oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh.

(0:37:04) speaker_5: (singing) Yeah. (singing)