Dr. JaeHee Chung-Sherman, DSW, LCSW, has centered her practice and research on decolonizing adoption and mental health for transracial and international adoptees. A transracial, transnational adoptee herself, Chung-Sherman, 47, has been among the first co-hort of TRIA therapists to do this work. She talks about narcissistic colonial adopt systems, and why she ultimately has decided to move on from private practice.

(0:00:09) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 15 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:23) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:32) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes our adoptive families, and society that only wants a feel good story.

(0:00:43) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. These are our stories.

(0:00:47) speaker_1: Really want to work with the individual and normalize an experience that they’ve had, that for the most part they’ve been gaslit.

(0:00:54) speaker_1: There must be something, you know, inherently wrong with the way that I’ve, uh, literally had to survive and adapt in the way that I think about the world.

(0:01:03) speaker_1:

(0:01:03) speaker_0: On this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. JaeHee Chung-Sherman. She holds a Doctor of Social Work and is a licensed social worker.

(0:01:14) speaker_0: Her practice and research for the past 14 years has been focused on transracial and international adoptees and collective colonial narcissism.

(0:01:24) speaker_0: As a transracial international adoptee herself, Dr.

(0:01:28) speaker_0: Chung-Sherman has been among the first wave of adoptee practitioners to speak up about decolonization of adoption practices and mental health.

(0:01:38) speaker_0: But before we start, I wanted to say a little about becoming a Patreon supporter.

(0:01:42) speaker_0: Patreon supporters can join for as little as a few dollars a month, and are helping to sustain the work of this podcast.

(0:01:49) speaker_0: All funds go directly to costs such as production help, software, music licenses, and more.

(0:01:55) speaker_0: Dozens of folks just like you, who have felt part of a community larger than themselves through these stories, they’ve decided the podcast is worth their support, and I hope you’ll join too if you’re able.

(0:02:08) speaker_0: You can go to patreon.com/adaptedpodcast. I want to thank recent supporters and long timers as well. Now, here’s JaeHee.

(0:02:27) speaker_1: Yeah. Well, thanks Kiyomi for having me on. My name is JaeHee Chung-Sherman. My pronouns are she, her, ʔiōtse, and I am 47.

(0:02:36) speaker_1: I’m a transracial international adopted person from South Korea, so one of many of the diaspora.

(0:02:43) speaker_1: And, um, I’ve lived here in the States since I was seven months old, and adopted by a white, uh, Anglo family in Minnesota.

(0:02:55) speaker_1: So, um, you know, the plethora of adoptions that came out of children’s home at the time in the late 70s.

(0:03:04) speaker_1: And then our family relocated to the South, to Texas when I was in the first, almost second grade.

(0:03:11) speaker_1: So I’ve pretty much grown up, um, in the South, though I have familiarity in the Midwest and, um, in the North culturally by, by way of my adoptive family.

(0:03:24) speaker_1: Um, but I find that home here right now is really embedded into, um, here in Texas. And so I’ve got two kids biologically and my partner.

(0:03:38) speaker_1: We’ve been together and married for over 20 years, and we live here in the Dallas, Texas area.

(0:03:45) speaker_1: And so I’ve been working in, uh, mental health, specifically in, um, uh, serving, uh, Black, indigenous, Latina, Asian, people of color holding, uh, multiple marginalized identities here in the Dallas, Texas area, and I also work in public health.

(0:04:05) speaker_1:

(0:04:05) speaker_0: Now, a- are you closing your practice or?

(0:04:09) speaker_1: I am. I am. So I’ve transitioned. I’m now, um, at a large tier one medical center university here in the Dallas area, and I’m one of their…

(0:04:22) speaker_1: I’m the director of a post-graduate clinical social work fellowship program.

(0:04:28) speaker_1: So that’s really kind of moved my, my life over into public health, serving a broader community.

(0:04:36) speaker_1: And I’ve had my private practice for, gosh, it’s been over 14 years now. And so it’s time. It was time to make that transition and shift.

(0:04:46) speaker_1: I finished my Doctor of Social Work from the University of Alabama, uh, last December, and, um, you know, I’ve…

(0:04:57) speaker_1: Throughout my, my career at least, or throughout my life, I think there’s always been these, these whispers to transition and keep moving and changing, though I will always have my foot in the door with our community.

(0:05:11) speaker_1: And so really wanting to open up spaces to teach more, um, and provide, provide not just mentorship, but also provide, um, you know, step, step aside as the next generation of TRIAs move and just compl- just really integrate a nuanced version and a nuanced space of our experience as TRIAs.

(0:05:42) speaker_1: Um, I’m big on that.

(0:05:44) speaker_1: And so being able to not only elevate their work, but also, um, take a step back and take a little breather, is, uh, the frontline work is really…

(0:05:56) speaker_1: It can take its toll.

(0:05:57) speaker_0: Oh, yeah, for sure. What’s a TRIA?

(0:06:01) speaker_1: Oh, I’m sorry. A transracial international adopted person.

(0:06:04) speaker_2: Okay. Okay.

(0:06:05) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:06:05) speaker_2: I, I guess-

(0:06:06) speaker_1: So-

(0:06:06) speaker_2: … I am one too, so… (laughs)

(0:06:08) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:06:09) speaker_2: Um, and was your practice primarily on transracial adoptees?

(0:06:13) speaker_1: It was. It really started in, um… It was structurally, it started in a response for adopt families, transracial adopt families, um, and minors.

(0:06:26) speaker_1: So, I would work with the family system, particularly with, uh, kids of color adopted by, uh, white folks.

(0:06:36) speaker_1: And, um, integrating, you know, gosh, research from attachment, from complex trauma, d- development, and slowly through time, I, it really began to, um, shift into teens and then young adults.

(0:06:53) speaker_1: And I see that, I, I watch that. I see that change and the transition with other colleagues. We, we talk about that, where we may start.

(0:07:02) speaker_1: Really, I think there’s this very genuine and authentic space of like, healing self that should not be for our clients.

(0:07:10) speaker_1: But because this is such a unique space clinically and in mental health, um, we, there were al- you know, there’s a cohort of, uh, transracial adopted people who were kind of carving out what this may look like.

(0:07:28) speaker_1: And so, even in its infancy, we can watch that development through working with children, then working with teens and families, and then working more with young adults and emergent youth.

(0:07:38) speaker_1: And then now, I primarily work with 18 and up, adults only. Because I’ll be honest, the work it, the work with the system itself was exhaustive.

(0:07:50) speaker_1: The work within a white family adopt system that really perpetuated, whether they were aware of that or not.

(0:07:58) speaker_1: We could talk about attachment, we could talk about complex trauma, but the pathology, um, and the narratives that continue to be basically, um, conflated with the child, with the child of color specifically’s behaviors and their response when they’re navigating these incredibly white and oppressive systems.

(0:08:25) speaker_1: And having a natural normative response to the world around them, along with the, the grief and loss that we as adoptees feel and have a right to have, um, authentic reactions to, um, was really hard over time to continue to try to share that out with white adopt parents in particular.

(0:08:49) speaker_1: Though I did work with several families who adopted by kinship, families of same race, families of, uh, transracial adoption, but may have adopted across racial lines, but they were, they also identified as Black, indigenous, Latina, Asian, people of color.

(0:09:06) speaker_1: But those dynamics were very different than working within white adopt families who adopted transracially. And quite frankly, it burned me out.

(0:09:17) speaker_1: And so, one of the reasons I moved predominantly into now, into young adulthood, emergent youth, through the lifespan, really wanna work with the individual and normalize an experience that they’ve had, that for the most part, they’ve been gaslit.

(0:09:33) speaker_1: There must be something, you know, inherently wrong with the way that I’ve, uh, literally had to survive and adapt in the way that I think about the world, deconstructing how colonialism has really shaped their experience.

(0:09:49) speaker_1: Um, because through at least our experiences, or at least for myself, I can’t speak for all, but there is this, um, theme of how imperialism, how colonialism has shaped all people of color.

(0:10:06) speaker_1: And then how it’s specific to transracial adopted peoples.

(0:10:11) speaker_1: And I speak very specific to transracial adopted peoples and those particularly holding multiple intersectional marginalized identities.

(0:10:21) speaker_1: So, TRAs who also identify within the LGBTQIA community, who also identify within neurodiversity and, um, you know, body size diversity and, um, those who identify, we are, as immigrants as well.

(0:10:39) speaker_1: And so, when I work with adults who are really beginning to find their voice, not just in, you know, that one layer of coming out of the fog that more predominantly white adoptees may in- tend to experience, but that is multilayered working with transracial adopted people.

(0:11:04) speaker_1: And so, I still, you know, I enjoy that. I enjoy that work. Um, but now, you know, shifting from my own practice, I’ll keep that open for consulting.

(0:11:17) speaker_1: Um, but working one-on-one, I wanna broaden this out so I can begin teaching and begin influencing, um, within not just our community, but you know, within a world of clinical work, like social work, um, professional counseling, LMFT work, um, psychology, with peers that are also people of color.

(0:11:45) speaker_1: But also, will interact with TRIAs and they may not even know it.

(0:11:51) speaker_1: And really learning how to decolonize our practice, decolonize the work, and I can, you know, move this into where I’m just working individually or broaden this out.

(0:12:05) speaker_1: So, your invite to be able to come here on the podcast and even talk about this or share this, um, it’s, it’s part of that.

(0:12:13) speaker_1: It’s part of that, that, um, journey, but it’s also-…

(0:12:18) speaker_1: you know, a space to be able, I hope, to validate and affirm the experiences that our community faces and then hopefully challenge those, um, who are working in mental health to fluidly be, um, flexible in the way that they approach our work with- their work within our community.

(0:12:44) speaker_1: Um, because for so long, it’s really been through a lens of white supremacy, of saviorism, of, uh, the idea that we know what’s best for you.

(0:12:56) speaker_1: And this can all- this can be, you know, trickled down into the way that, you know, adoptees in particular, but transracial adoptees have been historically diagnosed or misdiagnosed or over-diagnosed, over-medicated, under-medicated, h- um, even accessibility in terms of resourcing of mental health services and, um, and quality mental health services.

(0:13:26) speaker_1: Um, because there are so few of us doing this work, the hope is that there will be more who are able to do that and to elevate, um, practitioners of color, particularly those who identify as adoptees, um, because not only do they need support, but mentorship within our community, um, when they begin this process, because it- it was quite lonely, because many of us were just trying to figure out, “Well, what…

(0:13:53) speaker_1: ” You know, I can get this very Westernized, colonized white frame lens of how to approach therapeutic design, and, you know, God, I- I’ve made plenty of mistakes along the way and even harmed unintentionally, um, within our own community utilizing some of these prac- practices, um, related to, you know, this is the way that you approach your therapeutic work or design.

(0:14:24) speaker_1: This is the only way, which is very much this paternalistic, “I know what’s better for you,” patriarchal, um, white framework that says, you know, we all have to function this way.

(0:14:37) speaker_1: “This is what the- only what the research says.

(0:14:40) speaker_1: ” As in, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, and I’m not dogging that, but I am suggesting that, you know, there’s a unique perspective when, um, adoptees are learning about not just who they are, um, because that’s a broad question, because for the most part, we’ve been regrafted as adopted people, um, and particularly transracial adoptees, people of color to be regrafted to assimilate.

(0:15:11) speaker_1: That that is, “Is that part of me?” Yes. Um, but then what else is out there? And is it safe enough?

(0:15:19) speaker_1: Is it okay enough, acceptable enough to explore what that could even look like if my whole life or my narravit- narrative’s been, “Don’t consider that.

(0:15:30) speaker_1: Don’t look over there.” Um, and that may be then diagnosed as, “Oh, they must have attachment problems. They must have reactive attachment disorder.

(0:15:39) speaker_1: They must have oppositional defiance disorder.

(0:15:42) speaker_1: They must have, um, you know, X, Y, and Z in terms of developmental,” and that doesn’t mean the individuals can’t have that and, um, also, it- it’s not binary.

(0:15:57) speaker_1: What I mean is even if an individual may have been diagnosed with that, it isn’t always just because they’re adopted.

(0:16:04) speaker_1: Could it also be because they’re navigating a very, uh, discriminant, uh, socially discriminatory world?

(0:16:13) speaker_1: Are they, uh, readapting to racial oppression and trauma and gender bias, sexuality, um, bias and oppression?

(0:16:22) speaker_1: Um, and they’re alone because they already feel that way. Um, that’s not attachment.

(0:16:29) speaker_1: That’s more when we look at that, that’s acute stress that can build into trauma response for a situation and a life experience where they’re not getting affirmed, they’re not getting validated, and basically, you know, continues the narrative is keep going back to these communities, keep going back to your school, keep going back to this, say, predominantly white institution and try to find your place in here and continually adapt, adapt, adapt, coupled with their own history related to their loss and adoption that they may not have even, um, conceptualized yet.

(0:17:12) speaker_1: And so when it comes to mental health, the research and the work that I’ve started deconstructing, um, at least through my doctoral program and there is a paucity of information, meaning there’s a lack of, um, I- I began getting more curious about narcissistic adopt family systems that may be drawn in more specifically to transracial and international adoption, i.e.

(0:17:42) speaker_1: the saviorism, and how does that then play out in mental health? How is that impacting adopted people longitudinally?

(0:17:52) speaker_1: How is that impacting us community-wise and how mental health resources are being allocated, funding being allocated, um, how child placing agencies are functioning?

(0:18:04) speaker_1: How ultimately is child placement is a, not how, but child placement, particularly the removal of children of color from Black, indigenous, Latin,…

(0:18:20) speaker_1: Latinx, Asian, people of color, communities of color, um, the family systems. It’s been awash and aligned with white supremacy the entire time.

(0:18:33) speaker_0: Well, Jayhaye, let me, um, that was… Thank you for that. That’s, that’s a, that was a really great-

(0:18:38) speaker_1: It’s a lot. (laughs)

(0:18:38) speaker_0: … overview of what, of what you’ve been dealing with. Oh my gosh.

(0:18:45) speaker_0: Um, what I wanted to, you know, ask you about the narcissistic adopt family systems that you mentioned.

(0:18:54) speaker_0: You know, through my podcast and just being in the community, um, I do hear that it’s quite common for adoptees to talk about parents who, white parents who have this, uh, you know, that there’s, there’s aspects of narcissism.

(0:19:14) speaker_0: And can you talk more about what you’ve found?

(0:19:18) speaker_1: Yeah. So at least here’s, here’s what I started observing thematically, and there, there’s no, there’s not research.

(0:19:28) speaker_1: Um, after doing, um, significant, um, systemic analysis and reviews of the research prior to, um, the research related to these themes and observations that I was seeing anecdotally through the years of private practice, um, it wasn’t written.

(0:19:53) speaker_1: So it was, what I was learning more related to narcissistic patterning, characteristics and systems.

(0:20:00) speaker_1: I was actually going outside of, say, social work, um, but I was really l- you know, specifically learning about the research that maybe an individual pathology about what narcissism characteristics may look like in an individual, what that may look like by a parent, but not an adopt parent, and not an adopt parent of a child of color, um, sociologically.

(0:20:28) speaker_1: And then also, um, anthropology, um, where I found the dearth of information.

(0:20:34) speaker_1: The most information actually then went back into the historical context of colonialism, manifest destiny, um, these ideas that would sweep through, um, the imperialistic warmongering of the West into multiple communities, that really then, um, you know, overlapped with, uh, United…

(0:21:02) speaker_1: When the United Nations would talk about, um, the impacts of genocide and child removal and the impacts of what would happen when enslavers removed human beings from family systems.

(0:21:20) speaker_1: And Native Americans both here in the United States and Canada, indigenous families, um, with the forced child removals.

(0:21:30) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:30) speaker_1: And that’s where I got most of the context for communal narcis- narcissism.

(0:21:37) speaker_1: So I had to piece all this together, um, and really theoretically begin to argue, okay, the system itself is, is bathed in this narcissistic, um, exceptional viewpoint related to, um, predominantly Western, white, uh, patriarchal standards.

(0:22:03) speaker_1: How does this flow into not just placement? What am I watching?

(0:22:09) speaker_1: How is this aligning possibly with what I’m seeing being enacted in the therapy room from what adoptees have shared through the years, what families, what I’ve observed with family systems?

(0:22:22) speaker_1: Um, and, and even through the time when I was working in child placement. And so a couple things came into, like, more focus. So I created…

(0:22:37) speaker_1: There’s an acronym I created in terms of narcissism, and so it’s called VEED. V as in volatile.

(0:22:45) speaker_1: There’s a volatility, whether that’s on a communal level or whether that’s an individual level that I’m hearing from the individual, the person who’s been victimized by narcissism, that the other, the party holding power in narcissism truly is, when we break this down, there’s a power differential.

(0:23:05) speaker_1: Whether that’s between parent and child, whether that’s between, um, community or business partnership and relationships at, at, with employer and employee.

(0:23:16) speaker_1: Um, E as in VEED, as in entitled. I feel entitled. I feel entitled to, um, do what I need to do. I feel entitled.

(0:23:26) speaker_1: There’s an entitlement to eradicate another human being’s past history, to take a name, to redo the birth dates, to literally, um, erase parts of another human being’s identity.

(0:23:45) speaker_1: What is that about the entitlement that then’s going to show up that looks like and may look like, um, an entitlement to completely deny that the child’s pain could be related to…

(0:23:58) speaker_1: Or the adoptee’s pain, not just the child. I don’t want to infantilize our community. I get so tired of that.

(0:24:05) speaker_1: Um, the entitlement of suggesting that they know what is best for this child or adoptee, so we refuse to relocate.

(0:24:13) speaker_1: We refuse for us to be uncomfortable and discomfited in, um, the-…

(0:24:20) speaker_1: in that proximity of watching our child come back home every day, for instance, and share with us they’re getting bullied, racially bullied at school, and they’re the only ones.

(0:24:33) speaker_1: The sense of entitlement to say, “No, your name is this,” and we don’t say y- we don’t say your birth name. We don’t address the birth family.

(0:24:42) speaker_1: We don’t talk about the records and only if they ask. “I am entitled to control the narrative. I am entitled to know what is best for this child.

(0:24:55) speaker_1: ” Even with a practitioner, a practitioner with expertise and years of experience coming in and with lived experience, but also with clinical training sharing, “This is what is re-traumatizing your child.

(0:25:11) speaker_1: It is more than their attachment to you.

(0:25:13) speaker_1: It is a response in which you’re responding to them and denying parts of their identities and parts of the trauma and the acute stress that they’re feeling due to racialized oppression, gender oppression, whatever that’s going to look like, um, disability status, if there is learning challenges, whatever that looks like.

(0:25:35) speaker_1: I’m entitled to say I know what’s best, and I always have.

(0:25:40) speaker_1: ” And this started from early on, even in child welfare, the entitlement to go into communities and say, “We know what’s best for you.

(0:25:50) speaker_1: ” The other E is exploitive.

(0:25:52) speaker_1: So this exploitive idea that I will exploit the resources of what I can benefit from, whether it’s in this relationship or whether this is in community.

(0:26:03) speaker_1: So the exploitive piece that I hear thematically from adoptees and we begin to kind of deconstruct this, this is more adults, the exploitation of their own narrative.

(0:26:13) speaker_1: “So my parents over-blogged. They would go to conferences and my adopt- my adopter would start sharing out all my personal information without my consent.

(0:26:23) speaker_1: ” The exploitation of privacy, the exploitation of their body.

(0:26:28) speaker_1: “I would exploit and I would dress up in my child’s birth culture in the hanbok and I would go to the events where it would center more predominantly the white adopt mom.

(0:26:40) speaker_1: ” And this exploitive piece and then the denial piece.

(0:26:45) speaker_1: “Well, that’s not what I meant,” but it’s created the impact for the adoptee that will then move away from trusting and feeling a sense of security, because now the visage of who I am, of who you wanted to adopt is being exploited, but not recognized, honored, or understood.

(0:27:07) speaker_1: Or I will, um, exploit in terms of the funding and the marketing for raising funds.

(0:27:16) speaker_1: And so I’ve heard every argument from adopt families, but the impact for adoptees is when I see that bottom line, and adoption and birth, having a child by birth is not the same thing.

(0:27:31) speaker_1: So the exploitation related even to the financial where adoptees then begin to feel, “I am transactional.

(0:27:39) speaker_1: ” The exploitation to share that this is what my life was worth or my birth family is worth. And so of course that’s going to create depression, anxiety.

(0:27:49) speaker_1: And when adoptees begin to withdraw and really begin processing through this in their way, whatever that process and journey is gonna look like, the exploitation as well is also then kind of gas lit and said, “Oh, it’s definitely their adoption and their attachment issues.

(0:28:09) speaker_1: ” And this is interesting because I’ll get predominantly white adopt parents with adult adoptees who are in…

(0:28:16) speaker_1: Who are 18 plus, sometimes in their 30s, sometimes in their 40s contacting me as a clinician and say… And letting me know what’s wrong with their child.

(0:28:28) speaker_1: It’s gotta be their adoption history.

(0:28:31) speaker_1: The biggest red flag for me is that, okay, the exploitation of overriding their own autonomy, the exploitation of the autonomy even as adoptees within our bodies and our families of color was already exploited.

(0:28:45) speaker_1: But then the entitlement to say, “No, it’s got to be something wrong with them,” they usually will not…

(0:28:52) speaker_1: When I ask adopt parents before when I was working with them, my request is that you seek your own therapy. Many times they would not.

(0:29:01) speaker_1: The ones who really did were the ones who were really there committed to the process and working through that with their, um, adult child or child, and I’m gonna say that was few and far between.

(0:29:13) speaker_1:

(0:29:13) speaker_0: You mean, uh, let me just jump in here.

(0:29:17) speaker_0: You mean parents would contact you, um, saying their adult adopted child needs therapy, but then would not be open to therapy themselves?

(0:29:27) speaker_1: Absolutely. That was a red flag that this is a narcissistic system.

(0:29:32) speaker_1: The exploitation to override confidentiality and speak for their child versus support, and their child not being a chi- They’re not a minor, they’re adults.

(0:29:42) speaker_1: So the infantilization of adoptees, in particular, this entitlement, “I know what’s best, um, and I’ll speak for you.” It’s gotta be, “Oh, it’s too bad.

(0:29:55) speaker_1: It’s really your adoption,” which is, it’s also then when we tie that back also to racial oppression, the infantilization of people of color.

(0:30:04) speaker_1: So this is double, dually impactful when it’s coming from the adopt parent of transracial adopted people and it’s coming within the community.

(0:30:14) speaker_1: And then the final of the acronym is D as in, uh, dominating. So there’s this dominating presence.And this can be overt.

(0:30:24) speaker_1: When we think of narcissism, we think of more overt or malignant narcissism, where you have somebody who’s quite vocal and aggressive.

(0:30:34) speaker_1: And I think that’s a stereotypical idea of what narcissism may look like. Uh, we have politicians that may really align with that.

(0:30:43) speaker_1: But what I find more, um, more significant is actually the covert narcissism.

(0:30:50) speaker_1: So narcissism lives on a spectrum, and we all have this part of us because we’re human. Adoptees, parents, all of us, we have this.

(0:31:01) speaker_1: It’s the awareness of when that comes out when we’re really feeling vulnerable or really feeling, um, whether that’s attacked, whether we’re feeling, um, uh, inco- we’re, we’re questioned in our competence, whate- whatever that’s going to look like.

(0:31:16) speaker_1: The D part for the domination is that I will silence. So if you speak out, there is, there’s going to be what I call is this narcistic kickback or rage.

(0:31:29) speaker_1: And I see this particularly with, um, adoptees, but particularly transracial adoptees with white parents or a parent that holds the pocketbook.

(0:31:43) speaker_1: So, um, for emergent youth who are still in university and they’re really at this stage from 18 to 25, I don’t know about you, that was a hard time-

(0:31:55) speaker_3: Yeah.

(0:31:56) speaker_1: … (laughs) for myself. Very confusing. Um, you’re, you’re learning your interdependence.

(0:32:01) speaker_1: You’re learning what this means to be a person in the world, but more than that, a person of color outside of the confines of a white community or family, for the most part.

(0:32:11) speaker_1: Not everybody.

(0:32:12) speaker_1: Um, but then also integrating into a community where you’re trying to figure out so much about who you are and about how adoption, race, and all the intersections ca- are, um, you know, defining parts of yourself.

(0:32:31) speaker_1: This is where I find also the, the greatest fear.

(0:32:35) speaker_1: So a family system, particularly parents of more narcicisstic systems, um, fear this time, and they sense that the child of what they were needing and, you know, what was that motivation to adopt?

(0:32:50) speaker_1: Was that to fill a need? Was that to fill a loss? Was that to fill a void?

(0:32:55) speaker_1: And so this child now is in replacement of a need versus a human, an autonomous being.

(0:33:01) speaker_1: This can happen in any family system, but I think, uh, what I find is more predominant in transracial adopt families is not only the racialized difference of the adoptee, but then also it is, um, a very…

(0:33:18) speaker_1: It’s a public observation and then a private one that says, “If you go and you, you search, if you question, if you become curious, I can cut off funding.

(0:33:31) speaker_1: ” And the m- the times that I’ve experienced that to try to manage and work through with, um, adoptees, I will share with, um, emergent adoptees, “Listen, it’s not if, it’s when.

(0:33:45) speaker_1: There will come a time in our work that what you’re beginning to deconstruct is going to be very threatening to your family system.

(0:33:58) speaker_1: And so what do you have alternatively to help you financially, to help you, um, uh, physically, to help you medically?

(0:34:09) speaker_1: ” Um, because I have seen adopt parents respond in threat and anger, and this is that volatility. “I will dominate what you need to do.

(0:34:21) speaker_1: I will dominate when you go out of line.” And that fear psychologically is more than it’s made up in your mind.

(0:34:30) speaker_1: I really affirm with transracial adopted folks, in particular, internationally adopted folks, uh, in, in particular is that, that fear of being psychologically abandoned has probably always been there.

(0:34:45) speaker_1: And the fear is, “If I do this, I kinda always knew they had the capability,” they being the adopters, had that capability.

(0:34:54) speaker_1: And it’s frightening to lose and be re-abandoned again, particularly in emergent youth.

(0:35:01) speaker_1: And the number of times that I’ve shared this with other adoptee clinicians, um, and working within these systems is it’s pretty staggering.

(0:35:15) speaker_1: And, and I’ll be honest, Kim, with this, one of the reasons I had to back out, it was, it was, it was violent what was happening to the adoptees.

(0:35:26) speaker_1: And many times, if they would share this out with anybody else, I mean, they’ve…

(0:35:31) speaker_1: I’ve had adoptees tell me they’ve gone to usually three to four different therapists throughout their life because there was, quote-unquote, “Something wrong with them.

(0:35:39) speaker_1: ” And there wasn’t. It was a natural response. Depression, anxiety makes sense to me.

(0:35:45) speaker_1: And also, there could be pre-genetic factors that we don’t know because there’s a loss of accurate information as an adopted person socially and medically.

(0:35:55) speaker_1: So yes, so if bipolar disorder does exist in your family or ADHD exist in your birth family, that’s not because of your adoption or because there’s something of you when you’re really feeling, of course, isolated when you’re the only one in your family with no mirrors whatsoever.

(0:36:14) speaker_1: Let’s learn, let’s, you know, manage that. Um, but many times, what I, I’ve heard through the years, it’s those characteristics that were othered-…

(0:36:25) speaker_1: were weaponized against transracial adoptees.

(0:36:28) speaker_1: “I’ve got to be perfect,” which really aligns with this white supremist ideal and this perfectionism of like, “I’ve got to be perfect in order to survive.

(0:36:40) speaker_1: I’ve got to be productive in order to be enough.” Um, and I see this predominantly within, um, TR- T…

(0:36:49) speaker_1: transracial adoption, um, that, “If I don’t do this, I may not be worthy enough to stay.

(0:36:56) speaker_1: Um, that I’ve been serving a purpose within my family system rather than learning who I am, just to be who I am. I need to be on.

(0:37:07) speaker_1: ” And so, so much of that work is deconstructing the volatility, entitlement, exploitation, and the domination, this domineering factor of going, “What would that look like?

(0:37:18) speaker_1: What would that be like for you?

(0:37:21) speaker_1: ” W- to recognize when it’s happening, setting boundaries, and then also, you know, holding this, to grieve multiple layers of this, and also working with some systems, ’cause I, I have worked with, um, transracial adoptees and their families.

(0:37:41) speaker_1: Their families, very few can do this, but some of their parents can actually be accountable for their part in, in what has happened to them.

(0:37:50) speaker_4: What, what does that look like when you… white aparent- white parents become accountable?

(0:37:55) speaker_1: For some, it, it could be a, a slow, incremental apology. Sure, ultimately, you align with the system that removed your child from their birth family.

(0:38:09) speaker_1: Regardless of the rationale that whatever you were shared, uh, what was shared to you by the child placing agency and the themes at that time, at the end of the day, you aligned and were part of this broader system.

(0:38:27) speaker_1: And there was also some… There was also harm that was done as well.

(0:38:32) speaker_1: But that needs to be separate from the adopted person, because that, that sounds like an excuse, ’cause it is, um, when that’s the impact when the adoptee hears that.

(0:38:43) speaker_1: So working with families to go, “If you’re truly wanting repair…” And repair doesn’t mean automatic, uh, relational access.

(0:38:55) speaker_1: But if repair means, “I am part of that system. I recognize how my whiteness has erased parts of you. I recognize the harm that it’s done.

(0:39:05) speaker_1: ” I’ve had maybe two families who could do it in my history.

(0:39:10) speaker_4: And that’s over-

(0:39:12) speaker_1: So… That’s been-

(0:39:13) speaker_4: How many that you… (laughs) Out of a-

(0:39:17) speaker_1: (laughs) I don’t know.

(0:39:17) speaker_4: … pool.

(0:39:18) speaker_1: I’ve been in this realm for about 25 years.

(0:39:23) speaker_4: So it’s very rare. It’s very rare.

(0:39:26) speaker_1: Very rare.

(0:39:27) speaker_1: And I think, you know, I can, I can share out, it is not our responsibility as adoptees, particularly, um, all people of color, to teach their parents about white supremacy.

(0:39:39) speaker_1: And as a person of colo- as a clinician of color, there’s so few of us to begin with, but also a clinician, transracial adopted person of color sharing this out with these white systems, it’s exhausting, um, because…

(0:39:55) speaker_1: But that’s a minutiae of what is happening on a daily with their, their child, and then you add on any other, um, complexity, ’cause many of the, the patients, or the clients I have seen through the years, you know, they’ve, they’ve held…

(0:40:14) speaker_1: They were, um, uh, basically kicked, quote-unquote, “kicked out” of their adopt family when they came out, when they transitioned, um, when they didn’t fit that, that role.

(0:40:30) speaker_1: So I fully recognize that many of the, the clients I’ve seen through the years, it may be, um, you know, a sub-community, but I don’t find that, because when I go, and I’m in community with our, um, with others, with other transracial adoptees, the storylines are familiar.

(0:40:53) speaker_1: They rhyme.

(0:40:55) speaker_1: And the systems that may bring, be inviting for already narcissistic families and narcissistic people is perpetuated in that family system, and then it can be perpetuated in the cli- counseling room, and so so often I’m working from a framework, not automatically, “Oh, just because you’re adopted, they must be narcissistic.

(0:41:19) speaker_1: ” But we’re kind- we’re, like, assessing with permission and what’s comfortable for each client to go, “Okay, what is, what does that look like?

(0:41:29) speaker_1: What has that looked like for you?

(0:41:31) speaker_1: When you talked about your race, when you talked about adoption, when you talked about your sexuality, what, what was the response? What did you do?

(0:41:40) speaker_1: Who comforted you? Who was there for you?

(0:41:43) speaker_1: ” Um, and that’s go- we begin kind of actually working backwards to come back to the present, going back in history to come forward, ’cause many were taught not to question their adopt family, and that’s a saviorism.

(0:41:58) speaker_1: Many were taught not to even acknowledge, so there’s no words for it, that adoption was even a thing.

(0:42:06) speaker_1: They knew it, but they’ve learned to psychologically disconnect because that’s survival. But that’s also narcissism, which is colonialism. Erase it.

(0:42:20) speaker_1: Ensure that they are presentable, e- es- ensure that they are……

(0:42:26) speaker_1: um, you know, productive enough and deem them appropriate for whatever this looks like in this family, but in this community, which is predominantly a White community.

(0:42:38) speaker_1: And so- (smacks lips) A lot of families, it’s very threatening to hear that.

(0:42:46) speaker_0: What are some of those familiar storylines that you hear?

(0:42:51) speaker_1: Yeah, I think the big- (sighs) A lot of the familiarity is once, uh, adoptees start to come out of the fog, the families back away, or that they begin to question, um, their motivation for seeking-

(0:43:07) speaker_0: (thumps table)

(0:43:07) speaker_1: … additional information, whether that’s their birth family reintegrating, as Dr.

(0:43:12) speaker_1: Baden had talked about, re-aculturating with, um, (smacks lips) their, their communities of color, um, of being able to really- Particularly with larger, um, not larger, but different life experiences.

(0:43:28) speaker_1: So say, if an adoptee, um, you know, has- Gives birth.

(0:43:34) speaker_1: So there is this loss, particularly if the adopt parent, particularly if the adopt mom, um, had not experienced pregnancy.

(0:43:46) speaker_1: The loss of relationship or the pulling back of, um, not being able to talk to them in the same way, or talk with a parent in the same way, because the adoptee is also…

(0:43:59) speaker_1: And I’m generalizing in a way, but the adoptee is also learning what white supremacy actually looks like.

(0:44:07) speaker_1: There may be times, and I, I share this with TRAs, like, you’re gonna get mad. It’s like a righteous anger that’s probably been there the whole time.

(0:44:17) speaker_1: And that trope that’s used against adoptees is don’t be the ang- “Don’t be that angry adoptee.”

(0:44:23) speaker_0: Right.

(0:44:23) speaker_1: Which is not only pathologizing, it’s embedded in white supremacy.

(0:44:29) speaker_1: It’s embedded in- Just historically, when we add that on to people of color, it’s a way of silencing and dominating.

(0:44:38) speaker_1: And I hear that so often from, um, adopters, like, “Don’t be that angry adoptee.” I hear that from communities.

(0:44:47) speaker_1: I hear that from institutions that really want adoptees to come and quote… And I was part of this.

(0:44:54) speaker_1: I aligned with this, and I did harm, um, ’cause I- Before really doing deeper dives and work, is, you know, I would go and I would speak on behalf of “adoption” and really drink the Kool-Aid.

(0:45:11) speaker_1: And then- Then when you wake up and you say something different, drop you like hotcakes, um, within these white patriarchal systems.

(0:45:21) speaker_1: And how that plays out in the family is, you know, um, “You can come to the home, but don’t talk about race.

(0:45:29) speaker_1: ” “You can come to the home, but, you know, um, we want you to come to a family reunion. And we know everybody voted for Trump, but whatever.

(0:45:37) speaker_1: ” (laughs) “You’re just gonna suck it up, ’cause we’re family.” Um, I really saw this get elevated.

(0:45:44) speaker_1: I’m seeing it again get elevated with, um, the elections, where- And, and really the trauma and the fear that’s playing, that’s real, that’s playing itself out, um, within communities of color and adoptees.

(0:45:59) speaker_1: That’s when I saw an uptick in referrals from adoptees of color who would watch family systems align with White nationalists, from church or their places of worship to, um, their place of employment.

(0:46:16) speaker_1: And/or being able to share out with their parents or siblings, cousins, whatev- Grandparents, whatever that looks like, experiences that are happening at school, in higher ed, if they choose higher ed, or at employment, places of employment, um, where meritocracy doesn’t exist for people of color.

(0:46:42) speaker_1: And so they’re realizing, “Oh, this was kind of- I was raised in this false narrative that if I just work enough, if I’m white enough, this will work.

(0:46:53) speaker_1: ” And parents who don’t understand why their child is pulling back, um, and may respond, like I shared, you know, withdrawing funds, um, withdrawing connection, um, and others who- I’ve, I’ve had other clients where they, they, um, disowned them.

(0:47:13) speaker_1:

(0:47:15) speaker_0: Um, JK, I wanted to, um…

(0:47:17) speaker_0: I mean, that really resonated with me and the, the angry adoptee trope being, uh, aligned with this, you know, “It’s a child acting out,” you know?

(0:47:29) speaker_0: “Don’t be that angry adoptee,” or, “You’re a child.” You know?

(0:47:35) speaker_0: Um, (smacks lips) what age would you say your clients kind of came to you when they recognized or wanted to start the work of decolonizing themselves?

(0:47:48) speaker_0:

(0:47:48) speaker_1: I honestly, I think, Kimi, it’s a different process for everyone.

(0:47:53) speaker_1: But what I tend to find is that, um, once they’ve really established their own sense of self, or, or whatever that looks like, or more of an interdependent sense of self in adulthood.

(0:48:06) speaker_1: So this could be in latter their 20s. So say, maybe they have, um, they’ve given birth.

(0:48:13) speaker_1: Maybe they partner, um, in a more a, a committed relationship or marriage, um, or maybe they have experienced a death of an adopt parent or parents or family system.

(0:48:26) speaker_1: Or that, um, you know-It, it sometimes I’ll ha- I’ll have adoptees who come and they’re in their 30s or late 40s, some in their 60s.

(0:48:40) speaker_1: Um, typically the younger emergent adulthood, they’re recognizing… And I don’t want to generalize everyone, so it’s such a individual thing, right?

(0:48:51) speaker_1: But, um, they, they recognize I am… I’m dependent on my parents-

(0:48:58) speaker_0: (laughs).

(0:48:58) speaker_1: … or my parent, whatever that looks like, my caregiver. So I can’t do a lot of the hard work.

(0:49:04) speaker_1: And I will say this, when I’m working with emergent, um, adults, I, I now… I share a disclaimer and talk through this when I’m training other, uh, clinicians.

(0:49:17) speaker_1: The disclaimer is, um, you know, we can clean the, the countertops or we can do a deep dive, but these are some of the pros and cons to that.

(0:49:26) speaker_1: And we won’t know until we get there.

(0:49:29) speaker_1: Um, but sometimes with everything else that’s going on in their life, whether that is school, university, uh, place of employment, or trying to differentiate from their family system, or they’re really working on, um, mental health in terms of depression, anxiety, we’re not doing deep dives into adoption or identity work.

(0:49:50) speaker_1: We’re trying to stabilize, um, for safety ultimately. And so not everybody comes or has come to me because of adoption.

(0:50:00) speaker_1: I think it, it’s secondary to what’s been primary.

(0:50:04) speaker_1: Um, usually adoptees will come and say, people have said they’re, “I have commitment, um, challenges,” or that, “I’ve been, I’ve been so anxious and I can’t put my finger on it.

(0:50:16) speaker_1: I’ve been really depressed,” or, “I’ve struggled with depression my whole life.

(0:50:22) speaker_1: ” Um, or there’s, you know, significant complex trauma that has happened within the family and a lot of secrecy.

(0:50:29) speaker_1: Particularly in more narcissistic families, I find that, um, addiction or substance use, alcohol use, um, the lack of mental health, um, interventions on behalf of the adults, the caregivers or parents, um, you know, family estrangement, these are all characteristics of more narcissistic systems that I found through thematically.

(0:50:52) speaker_1: And so, you know, it’s more than the adoptee that may have… You know, we don’t know if…

(0:51:00) speaker_1: Is there a predisposition or has this also been, um, uh, modeled and remodeled by an adopt family system that’s chaotic?

(0:51:09) speaker_1: And that, you know, whatever their motivation was to adopt a child outside of race and outside, say, internationally, um, they’ve not…

(0:51:20) speaker_1: the parents, the caregivers have not done their internal work.

(0:51:24) speaker_1: And so many times the adoptees will come and they’ll tell me, you know, “I’ve, I’ve got trauma, I’ve got chaos,” and they, they haven’t been able to put their finger on it.

(0:51:33) speaker_1: Um, but it’s showing up in, say, employment, “I’m about to lose my job,” or, um, “My child is really struggling with me.

(0:51:42) speaker_1: ” And so this is where we kind of do a slow burn clinically, um, because if I came out the gate with anything, and that’s the very first thing we start talking about, that’s gonna be scary.

(0:51:54) speaker_1: That’d be scary for me.

(0:51:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:51:58) speaker_1: Um, and so I think therapists need to recognize just because a person’s adopted doesn’t mean that’s what you start with.

(0:52:05) speaker_1: It, it is we’re human and we are, um, incredibly complex.

(0:52:09) speaker_1: And I always want to start where an adoptee is because so often our autonomy and our voice has been…

(0:52:17) speaker_1: It’s been taken away since infancy, sometimes before we’re born. Like your medical records or mine, they’ve been out there, social history.

(0:52:28) speaker_1: And so I think that’s so important working with adoptees, is consent and then a fluid discussion about what to expect because that…

(0:52:42) speaker_1: the unknown, of course, that’s incredibly impactful for any human being.

(0:52:46) speaker_1: No one likes, uh, not to know what’s coming next, but particularly for adopted people who’ve always had to adapt to how people are gonna respond and what’s gonna happen to them without their consent.

(0:52:58) speaker_1: And yeah. (laughs)

(0:53:02) speaker_0: (laughs) Um-

(0:53:03) speaker_1: Sorry. Go ahead. (laughs)

(0:53:04) speaker_0: I need, I need a… I need some coffee. Um… (laughs)

(0:53:07) speaker_1: (laughs).

(0:53:09) speaker_0: Um, decolonization, um, it can, it can be quite scary for a transracially adopted child, um, uh, I, I imagine. Does it… Is it, um…

(0:53:25) speaker_0: Does it usually always end in a rupture in the family system?

(0:53:30) speaker_1: No, it doesn’t. It, um, like I shared… I guess it… Let’s… Let me pull that back a little bit or define that.

(0:53:38) speaker_0: Hmm. Okay.

(0:53:39) speaker_1: Um, rupture, rupture can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

(0:53:43) speaker_0: Sure. Yeah.

(0:53:44) speaker_1: Um, but it can also, I think, through internal, individual, and then family hard work, or with a partnership, it, it can really bring them closer if people are willing to do some of those deeper dives in.

(0:54:01) speaker_1: It doesn’t happen very often, but it… What it may do is it may shift the relationship.

(0:54:09) speaker_1: So not every adopted person may define that as a rupture, but they may define it as a place of liberation for them. “I can be myself.

(0:54:18) speaker_1: I know what’s happening now.” And so a lo- sometimes a lot of the work is like, “Okay, so now you know what’s going on.

(0:54:25) speaker_1: The family system’s probably not gonna change. How do you want to navigate that? How are you gonna keep yourself just…”… salient in that.

(0:54:33) speaker_1: So if all you can do is an hour with your family, um, and, and that’s how you wanna balance it, awesome. ‘Cause so often, I think, it is that response.

(0:54:44) speaker_1: It’s like then you’re out, right? Like, very binary. Family for many adopted people is incredibly fluid.

(0:54:54) speaker_1: (laughs) It’s very different and defining for when adoptees or I speak with fosterees about how they define family.

(0:55:01) speaker_1: I’m like, you know, this old adage of it’s thicker than blood, hmm, it was already disrupted long before (laughs) I, uh, you know, I had words, or sometimes I had explicit memory of that.

(0:55:15) speaker_1: And so, how do you wanna define what family looks like for you now because it’s been defined for so long? And that may not be a rupture.

(0:55:23) speaker_1: That may just be an awakening for some.

(0:55:26) speaker_1: And, you know, how their family wants to choose to navigate that, a lot of the f- You know, we don’t have control over that in terms of how people wanna respond.

(0:55:39) speaker_1: Um…

(0:55:41) speaker_0: Right.

(0:55:42) speaker_1: And sometimes it, it does create…

(0:55:45) speaker_1: It creates tension, but I don’t think all relationships have to be, to be ruptured if the family can tolerate it, if the system can tolerate it.

(0:55:57) speaker_0: The family has to be strong enough.

(0:55:59) speaker_1: They’ve gotta be, they’ve gotta be… Yes, they’ve gotta be flexible enough and tolerable enough for that change.

(0:56:07) speaker_1: But if we’re working more with predominantly narcissistic systems, that’s, flexibility is not a characteristic you tend to find (laughs) in narcissistic systems.

(0:56:18) speaker_1: It tends to be rigid, my way or the highway. And this is… And I share with adoptees the rupture that’s happening isn’t necessarily…

(0:56:27) speaker_1: That’s not your fault, predominantly. What it is, it is a revelation of the things that have always been there. Now, what do you want to do with that?

(0:56:41) speaker_1: How do you wanna survive within that system? You get a say. You get autonomy. What do you wanna do?

(0:56:47) speaker_0: Do you think a lot… Uh, uh, I mean, I know we’re just talking and, you know, a lot, many, most, I don’t know.

(0:56:54) speaker_0: It’s, it’s hard to say, but, in generalities, but, um, do you think it’s, it’s common, I guess, to…

(0:57:01) speaker_0: for adoptees who are trying to decolonize their, uh, themselves and their relationships, uh, of, you know, f- striking kind of, um, you know, with their, with their white families in these systems where it may not align with this…

(0:57:21) speaker_0: you know, with their new, you know, decolonizing their, their life and, um, that they might be one way with their white families and then m- their more authentic self with their chosen family?

(0:57:39) speaker_0:

(0:57:39) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah. If that works for folks, I say go for it. That’s not a lack of authenticity. It really… We, as adoptees, we’ve always learned to adapt.

(0:57:50) speaker_1: Um, but I think it’s the awareness. Like therapy, it’s not about fixing stuff. People aren’t broken human beings.

(0:57:58) speaker_1: It’s about building awareness and then where each client gets to choose what you wanna do with that awareness, getting skills to utilize that of what works for them.

(0:58:07) speaker_1: And so, you know, decolonizing is such a… I know it’s a, it’s a pop culture phrase. It’s been going on for a long time.

(0:58:17) speaker_1: We call it coming out of the fog in different circles.

(0:58:21) speaker_1: But, um, it’s, it’s learning when it’s coming up and what you wanna do with it, and I think that awareness is really powerful.

(0:58:30) speaker_1: So rather than where I think so many, not all, but so many adoptees kind of walk in like, “I don’t know why I’m so upset or activated by their comments,” or, you know, when they’re, they’re running their mouth about xenophobia, and I don’t know what’s coming up for me.

(0:58:49) speaker_1: I haven’t had the words.” And when you have the awareness and when you have the knowledge, it’s so incredibly empowering.

(0:58:57) speaker_1: And so then you can learn how, if you choose, how to navigate that and while you keep your authentic parts of yourself.

(0:59:06) speaker_1: So that’s held for your sacred community. That’s held for our chosen family. Um, I always think about, you know, do you have somebody you can, like, text?

(0:59:16) speaker_1: (laughs) Do you have someone you can message and go, “Oh my gosh,” just so you know that you’re not alone, ’cause we all need, we all need that recognition.

(0:59:26) speaker_1: “I’m not alone in this.” Um, and, you know, when that empowerment happens, I think that can be really…

(0:59:38) speaker_1: For a lot of family systems, if I, if I came from a, a standpoint of rescuing you and providing what I thought was best for you, um, and all the sudden, it may feel like for the family, particularly for the parents, that all the sudden my child is changing versus that this part of themselves is just waking up, that they had to subjugate.

(1:00:06) speaker_1: And they get to choose how much they wanna show that or not ’cause that’s a sacred part of themselves.

(1:00:16) speaker_0: So, Jay, I have a couple more questions, but I wanna respect your time. So how, how are you feeling?

(1:00:23) speaker_1: I am… Every time I talk about this, both I get, um… Wow, I get an empowered to a certain extent of, like, I can really say this out loud….

(1:00:36) speaker_1: um, and not fear repercussion in the way that I used to. Um, and there’s also the parts of me that, that feel great loss of-

(1:00:47) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:00:47) speaker_1: … for others and within our community ’cause the work, the work’s exhausting. Um, but it’s meaningful and it’s-

(1:00:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:00:57) speaker_1: It’s necessary. And the sadness is also, why do we as a community have to be the ones to decolonize, right?

(1:01:05) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:01:06) speaker_1: Do all this, um, because of the things that have happened. And, um-

(1:01:12) speaker_0: That’s a great burden.

(1:01:15) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:01:16) speaker_0: To-

(1:01:16) speaker_1: Have to-

(1:01:17) speaker_0: Not only enlighten yourself, (laughs) but also take on the work of, you know, trying to enlighten your family.

(1:01:25) speaker_1: And I don’t… I, I, I’m big on this. Like, it is not our job to do that.

(1:01:33) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(1:01:35) speaker_1: Your authentic self. You’ve done enough. I always think the adoptee tax. (laughs) You-

(1:01:39) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:01:40) speaker_1: I tell, like, I’m like, “You’ve paid your tax.”

(1:01:42) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:01:43) speaker_1: That’s not a thing. You, you don’t have-

(1:01:44) speaker_0: Lifetime tax, we already paid. (laughs)

(1:01:47) speaker_1: Right? That’s so, so the, the emotional labor you can give people, you know, the invoice. (laughs)

(1:01:53) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:01:54) speaker_1: I, I’m like, “Just Google it.

(1:01:57) speaker_1: ” Um, I’m, I’m at, I’m at that point now with a lot of, um, particularly more predominantly, uh, white adopted spaces that, uh, request our labor without compensation or without credit.

(1:02:10) speaker_1:

(1:02:11) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:02:11) speaker_1: And, um, lived through that long enough professionally and, um, in this realm.

(1:02:18) speaker_1: So I will say this, for TRAs out there and you’re getting hit up by all these other places without, um, you know, compensation or credit.

(1:02:29) speaker_1: And are they elevating other voices within our community and Black, indigenous, Latinx, Asian, people of color communities, um, LGBTQIA, but people of color within the LGBTQIA communities?

(1:02:46) speaker_1: What…

(1:02:46) speaker_1: Then I, I would take a step back because, uh, and really know what, what your labor, where it’s gonna go and how you want to use your talents and skills, ’cause you’ve paid your tax.

(1:03:01) speaker_1:

(1:03:03) speaker_0: How do I know… How, how would I know if I have a, a narcissistic parent?

(1:03:12) speaker_1: The nar- I think some of the, some of the signs, um, is, you know, the more overt characteristics are pretty, pretty familiar.

(1:03:23) speaker_1: The yelling, aggressiveness, threatening to remove, um, their love, their relationship, threatening to remove physical items, lack of empathy, lack of remorse.

(1:03:37) speaker_1: Um, saying sorry, but you really know they’re not, they’re not sorry. Um, an inability to, to listen and allow your voice to be heard.

(1:03:49) speaker_1: Um, physical violence, sexual violence, um, definitely signs of narcissistic systems. Economic control.

(1:03:57) speaker_1: Um, I think about the power and control wheel that’s out there, um, on more overt narcissistic family systems.

(1:04:06) speaker_1: More, mo- more covert is where you’re really par-… You are parenting the parent, and you have no space for yourself to be seen or heard.

(1:04:15) speaker_1: That it always becomes centered on the parent, that their needs, uh, usurp yours, their needs of being nurtured, being safe enough, being okay enough.

(1:04:27) speaker_1: We call it parentification, but that’s a covert place of narcissism where you can’t be you.

(1:04:33) speaker_1: I see this quite a bit with transracial adoptees, that you were there to provide comfort, companionship, um, a lost child, this idealism of what this should be between a parent-child relationship, to take care of the parent, predominantly sometimes the mom, uh, the adopt caregiver, um, the mother figure.

(1:04:55) speaker_1: Um, that there is no space for you to have your own thoughts or feelings, that, um, there is gaslighting and emotional stonewalling.

(1:05:05) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:05:05) speaker_1: I tend to find that in more narcissistic systems, um, particularly, uh, families, is that you’re going to have what I call stonewalling, but then also it is complete, “I’m going to give you the silent treatment,” which in research is very specific of the psychological and neurological abuse and damage that this does.

(1:05:27) speaker_1: It hits in the same center of our brain that says, “You just hit me.

(1:05:32) speaker_1: ” And, um, coupled with the abandonment that adoptees have already experienced, it’s not in our heads, the, uh, and the rejection and loss.

(1:05:42) speaker_1: And so the stonewalling, withholding affection, withholding words and affirmation, or just pretending that you don’t exist because say, the child stepped out of line or the adoptee said or did something they didn’t like, that that fear I, I tend to find more often in more covert narcissistic families.

(1:06:02) speaker_1: Narcissistic systems also have a lot of secrecy. So some of the other characteristics may be eating disorders, substance use.

(1:06:10) speaker_1: They may also have a lot of, uh, family estrangement and fragmentation.

(1:06:15) speaker_1: And, you know, home studies have been predominantly done by white social workers for white families. It is meant to be aligned with white supremacist systems.

(1:06:25) speaker_1: The laws are shaped this way still to this day.

(1:06:28) speaker_1: So a lot of these characteristics we’re talking about, they’re not really, they’re not divulged and they’re not deconstructed.

(1:06:35) speaker_1: And a home study is not gonna catch any of that.It can catch some of it, but it’s not enough to preclude people from adopting.

(1:06:43) speaker_1: So when I talk with adoptees, um, and also because I have done home studies in the past.

(1:06:49) speaker_1: So, um, when I speak with adoptees today, it’s like, “Well, why wasn’t that caught? Why wasn’t…

(1:06:56) speaker_1: ” Well, covert, it is covert narcissism or even grandiose or malignant narcissism. They’re charmers.

(1:07:02) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:07:03) speaker_1: And many times that they can charm others and then they can gaslight, and I typically find they’ll pathologize a child.

(1:07:10) speaker_1: I’ve seen at these adoption conferences predominantly white adopt moms who will wear shirts that says RAD, mother of a RAD child, reactive attachment disorder, of a radish, of…

(1:07:24) speaker_1: A house full of radishes. How disgusting is that?

(1:07:29) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:07:29) speaker_1: Um, or I’m a trauma mama.

(1:07:32) speaker_1: So again, not only are they exposing, um, and exploiting their child’s, um, behavioral and emotional status, they’re revealing it, but they’re also then, what are they doing?

(1:07:45) speaker_1: They’re sucking the air out of the room and now they need to be comforted.

(1:07:49) speaker_0: Right.

(1:07:49) speaker_1: It’s another-

(1:07:50) speaker_0: It’s like a soccer mom kind of thing. (laughs)

(1:07:53) speaker_1: Soccer mom, yeah.

(1:07:54) speaker_1: And I think like, it’s, it’s, uh, it historically, let’s align that then with white supremacy and how white women co-opt the room, white tears, white fragility, um, centering.

(1:08:05) speaker_1:

(1:08:05) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:08:05) speaker_1: And so the adoptee is left abandoned and unto themselves. And so… But there’s no words developmentally.

(1:08:13) speaker_1: And just to be clear, you know, um, we’re not doing… I’m not doing decolonizing work with minors.

(1:08:19) speaker_1: (laughs) We’ll talk about racism, we’ll talk about-

(1:08:21) speaker_0: That’s too hard for them, right?

(1:08:23) speaker_1: Developmental… They’re not there yet. I mean, we’re not… I’m still (laughs)

(1:08:28) speaker_0: I know. (laughs)

(1:08:28) speaker_1: … grappling with that and I’m 47. Um, but that, but even the recognition, if you are enacting it, how then can you see it?

(1:08:37) speaker_1: And I think that is the hardest piece.

(1:08:40) speaker_1: Getting past the white fragility and the tears and the defensiveness or this idea of entitlement to say, “I know what’s better.

(1:08:49) speaker_1: ” (laughs) I, I tend to find that more in misogyny-

(1:08:52) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:08:53) speaker_1: … of like, “I know already what to do.”

(1:08:55) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:08:56) speaker_1: Between that system leaving the adoptee to go, “I don’t know what you’re talking… I don’t… Something’s wrong with me.

(1:09:04) speaker_1: ” Um, withholding information from birth family, they don’t need that information now. Withholding information, not going to…

(1:09:12) speaker_1: Uh, and I’m not talking about cultural events per se, just like one-time events, like actually integrating their lives within communities of color.

(1:09:22) speaker_1: Like that is the most simplistic part. You took a child from their community and culture, a community of color, and assimilated them.

(1:09:36) speaker_1: And my challenge to white adopt families that have been…

(1:09:40) speaker_1: And sometimes this is where I may never see them again in the counseling room, is what is them precluding you from going into the community when you took what you needed?

(1:09:50) speaker_1: But how are you integrating that into your lives, not just leaving that for your child?

(1:09:56) speaker_1: That narcissistic piece that says, “I know what’s best,” they already have it.

(1:10:03) speaker_1: We don’t need this community to help gird up the identity and, um, self-esteem and efficacy of our child. You know, that takes a lot of gumption, right?

(1:10:15) speaker_1: (laughs) To consider you’ve got people trying to help you and tell you how to navigate this, and this is a huge piece.

(1:10:22) speaker_1: Not just dropping them at a culture camp and going, “That’s what you get. That’s your inoculation for next year so you won’t have racism.

(1:10:31) speaker_1: ” It is who are, who’s in your circle? What is it about your, your own sense of self that says, “I don’t need this?”

(1:10:41) speaker_0: If I… Like, I’m a white adoptive parent and I have everything I need in order to raise this child of color without-

(1:10:48) speaker_1: Yes.

(1:10:48) speaker_0: … with already in my life system.

(1:10:51) speaker_1: Absolutely. I mean, when we look at like white supremacy and narcissism and we look at colonialism, of course that flows into the family.

(1:11:02) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:11:03) speaker_1: And then you’ve got caseworkers and social workers, social workers.

(1:11:06) speaker_1: My profession has been historically aligned with white supremacy, that, that will, um, only see it through that visage and see that through that lens so can validate the family going, “Hey, culture camps are great.

(1:11:17) speaker_1: That’s all you need.”

(1:11:18) speaker_0: What about adoptees who they say, “I’m fine,” you know? Or, or parents who say, “Oh, my adopted child doesn’t have any issues.”

(1:11:30) speaker_1: I always, I always find it interesting when people speak for someone else, because that speaks of my, my child is okay, and immediately kind of go into the acronym volatile, entitled, exploitive, dominating.

(1:11:48) speaker_1: Like, it’s very interesting that you know what your child already needs, that they already have that.

(1:11:55) speaker_1: And in the same way with adoptees, I’m much more, um… There is that part of like, okay, because I also think, and you know, I’m kind of going all over.

(1:12:07) speaker_1: In white culture, and most of us were raised in white culture, they’re socialized not to see it either.

(1:12:15) speaker_1: And so I can have a little bit of flexibility, I have to allow that for myself to s- to work within these systems.

(1:12:23) speaker_1: But for adoptees, particularly people of color, it is, tell me if you…

(1:12:29) speaker_1: I, I hear that you are fine, but there’s something that brought you here, and let’s explore that.

(1:12:37) speaker_1: Because typically it is the defense that’s been narrated by somebody else or the expectation to stay okay.

(1:12:45) speaker_1: And then my no- my next question is, I’m curious where you heard that.

(1:12:53) speaker_0: Mm. Mm-hmm.

(1:12:55) speaker_1: Where did that come from? The I’m fine.

(1:12:57) speaker_1: And sometimes we’ll get further into session, I’m like, “You know, I’m, I’m guessing that you’ve always had to be fine, right? So you wouldn’t be left.

(1:13:06) speaker_1: You always had to be fine and present that way so bad things wouldn’t happen again.”

(1:13:15) speaker_0: Like being fine is also like a performance or an expectation-

(1:13:20) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(1:13:21) speaker_0: … placed on us maybe that of, of course you’re fine, right? You’re fine.

(1:13:24) speaker_1: If that’s been mem- “Oh, my kid’s fine. They’re doing fine at school.”

(1:13:29) speaker_0: Yeah.

(1:13:30) speaker_1: They’re freaking out and they’re having panic attacks, social anxiety. There’s like, especially Asian adoptees and they’re like, “They’re really smart.

(1:13:37) speaker_1: ” Horrible stereotype. They never get the services they need. I’m like, “Oh, your kids had dyslexia for like 10 years. They weren’t fine.

(1:13:44) speaker_1: They learned how to adapt to survive.” And that’s…

(1:13:48) speaker_1: It’s okay to be fine this year with adoptees and feel that, but it’s not okay to deny what may be going on underneath that, and are you okay exploring that with me?

(1:14:00) speaker_1: And most of the time adoptees say, “I never thought of it.” And we’ll go into that, like what’s happening.

(1:14:07) speaker_1: We are taught to disconnect from our bodies as adopted people. I mean, everything was transactional early on. It was very abrupt in different scenarios.

(1:14:19) speaker_1: So we disconnect and a lot of the work I do with adopted people, people of color in particular, is coming back to the body.

(1:14:28) speaker_1: Coming back to a sense of knowing that I can learn to trust intuitively my body, that I can learn to trust what’s happening, ’cause adoption in a lot of ways turns off the red flags.

(1:14:43) speaker_1: I’m not supposed to go with people I don’t know. Turn it off.

(1:14:48) speaker_1: If you’re growing up in an abusive and/or narcissistic or both system, then the red flags I’m supposed to feel, like I’m, I’m, I’m sad about what’s happening, I’m grieving and I’m freaking out because I’m the only person of color in a family reunion that brought me to rural Mississippi, and I don’t know why I’m feeling like this, but everyone’s staring at me and I’m having a behavioral response, an emotional response, and everybody’s telling me it’s fine.

(1:15:16) speaker_1: “Aren’t you cute?” And I’m not getting that response back, then I learn how to disconnect from my body to survive.

(1:15:26) speaker_1: And so so often the work is slow and it’s ongoing with transracial adoptees.

(1:15:32) speaker_1: So I may be closing my practice to new patients, but the patients that I have seen, Kiyomi, I’ve seen on and off for years, because things happen.

(1:15:43) speaker_1: And so I’m not closing it to established patients.

(1:15:48) speaker_1: I, I will provide consult for other clinicians and adoptees, but then the issue being, um, that, you know, this is longitude will work.

(1:16:01) speaker_1: That no CBT or DBT or all these interventions are going to be like, “Oh. Now you’re fixed.”

(1:16:09) speaker_0: Mm.

(1:16:10) speaker_1: Or broken. It’s what’s happened to you.

(1:16:15) speaker_0: Last thing I wanted to…

(1:16:17) speaker_0: that it kinda came up when we were talking, you know, when we were talking about rupture, whatever you call it, that might happen within a family system once you start to come out of the fog or start to, you know, really lean in on some feelings that have, uh, uh…

(1:16:40) speaker_0: that you’ve been, you know, they’re pounded out of you too. (laughs) Um, I, I’ve kind of noticed that this…

(1:16:49) speaker_0: It can also happen within couples who, you know, uh, uh, like other Korean adoptees who, you know, mid-life or that, that they have this kind of rupture with their White spouse at the same time that they’re coming out of the fog.

(1:17:04) speaker_0:

(1:17:08) speaker_1: It, it is… So, so I’m not… Couples counseling is definitely not my wheelhouse.

(1:17:13) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:17:14) speaker_1: But I… They’re individual- I see people individually, um-

(1:17:17) speaker_0: Is that similar to the family system?

(1:17:19) speaker_1: It can be, because many times we’ve been taught to, uh… We mirror what we’ve been taught, right? We mirror relationships that have been normalized.

(1:17:32) speaker_1: So if I marry into… or if I’ve been raised in Whiteness or taught to assimilate, then that’s what I know. And, and genuinely with partners who I…

(1:17:44) speaker_1: they fell in love, they do love each other. There’s a genuine deep respect and admiration. Um, I do think it is…

(1:17:53) speaker_1: It’s, there is, um, the intimacy piece and the, the difference between…

(1:17:58) speaker_1: And like being raised developmentally by parents and you’ve got the, not only they may be raising children or step-children or, um, you know, couple together, but they, their partner may have met them at a very different developmental age and stage, and when they start doing some of this work, uh, I do…

(1:18:22) speaker_1: I…

(1:18:22) speaker_1: That’s a great question, Kiyomi, ’cause I, I do share with adults, um, as you begin to kind of wake up, you can’t unsee what you see now, and how open is your partner to doing some of their own work?

(1:18:37) speaker_1: Specifically in terms of Whiteness, White fragility and White supremacy, because this inevitably is going to come out, and some of the, the pain that they may not be able to express or share with their parents, it can be dually activating when they can’t……

(1:18:55) speaker_1: when they’re trying to share this out with their partner and their partner’s getting defensive.

(1:19:00) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:19:01) speaker_1: Or their partner is, they cannot journey. That’s not the, your say, and I’ll just use this, your Koreanness wasn’t at the forefront. You were just a person.

(1:19:10) speaker_1: I didn’t see you as Korean.

(1:19:12) speaker_1: So it’s, it’s they’re getting the messages they’ve grown up with, while at the same time also trying to explain to their partner what it feels like to be adopted, when it’s coming out with them when they’re facing not just deeper intimacy and commitment, like, “Will you actually stay?

(1:19:31) speaker_1: Will you be… Will you get down and dirty with me?

(1:19:35) speaker_1: ” And especially if they have children, if their children are multiracial, then what does this mean for my child?

(1:19:43) speaker_1: And many times, their kids are the ones, and I’ve got two boys, they’re teens now, but the hardest conversations because my boys are, they’re just, they’re tru- kids are truth tellers.

(1:19:57) speaker_1: So whether that’s in the counseling room or developmentally, they are asking me questions about adoption that I ask privately to myself.

(1:20:07) speaker_1: And thankfully, I’ve had really good therapy and a great therapist now, and s- my, my partner’s support in this, so we’ve had our own places of high tension and questioning because the work is not easy.

(1:20:24) speaker_1: He’s had to do work. I’ve had to do work. We’ve had to work together.

(1:20:29) speaker_1: Um, but our ch- our kids are a reflection not only of the first time I’ve actually had human beings that reflected back biologically parts of myself, which is strange, but then asking about their birth grandparents, their cousins, their culture, in a way that I didn’t have to.

(1:20:53) speaker_1: I could completely subliminate if I needed to.

(1:20:56) speaker_1: And many times, that’s when I’m seeing couples or I’m seeing individuals and then talking through and trying to help them find a good couple’s therapist who is familiar with adoption.

(1:21:11) speaker_1: Um, and who doesn’t… A therapist who’s not going to idealize adoption.

(1:21:15) speaker_1: (laughs) ‘Cause I’ve had people tell me they’ve had therapists who tell them, “You should be grateful.”

(1:21:21) speaker_0: Right.

(1:21:22) speaker_1: “Are you upset?” It’s horrible. Um, we don’t say that-

(1:21:26) speaker_0: You should be fine, yeah.

(1:21:27) speaker_1: … with adoptees. Yeah. Like, we don’t talk about that with any other trauma-

(1:21:30) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:21:30) speaker_1: … but we tend to do that (laughs) with adoption. I’m like, “Oh, let me tell you about some of your most private stuff and then gaslight you therapeutically.

(1:21:38) speaker_1: ” Um, so I think that work for, for couples, it’s dually challenging ’cause many times adoptees may not, they’re not gonna be able, some can, to go to their parents and really discuss this.

(1:21:52) speaker_1: And they have their partner, and if their partner isn’t unable or isn’t able, it’s mirroring what they’ve experienced their whole life.

(1:22:01) speaker_1: Some may make it and some may not.

(1:22:06) speaker_0: Well, this has been (sighs) wonderful. (laughs) I mean-

(1:22:11) speaker_1: Oh. (laughs)

(1:22:12) speaker_0: You know, and it, I, I, it’s w- it’s, it, I don’t even know what I’m feeling because, you know, it’s not like I’m very joyful. (laughs) But-

(1:22:19) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:22:20) speaker_0: ‘Cause it, ’cause it is, it’s the, it’s the, uh, I’m sure it’s part of what you experience too as a, as a practitioner just the immensity of the work and the, the, the healing and the damage, and it’s-

(1:22:39) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:22:39) speaker_0: … it’s, it’s overwhelming, but it’s also the knowledge is, is fire, you know, too.

(1:22:46) speaker_1: Yeah. Let me just share. Our community, and not because…

(1:22:50) speaker_1: I’m not gonna do a positive wrap-up because of things that have happened to our community, and I say our community as, as adopted people, but particularly transracial adopted people.

(1:23:02) speaker_1:

(1:23:02) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:23:04) speaker_1: Um, we’re fire.

(1:23:05) speaker_1: I would say if, if Armageddon happens or, like, a zombie apocalypse, it’s adoptees, foster-ees, and Tupperware (laughs) that’s going to exist ’cause there’s just fire.

(1:23:20) speaker_1:

(1:23:20) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:23:20) speaker_1: Um, but there’s also a, a deep underneath that fire is, um, this incredibly deep and intuitive space that every single human being deserves to be able to tap into.

(1:23:37) speaker_1: And I’m not big on resilience in terms of trauma.

(1:23:43) speaker_1: Like, get up by your bootstraps and be resilient before, before really being able to vocalize and deconstruct the things that have happened, ’cause I don’t have to be grateful for anything outside my consent.

(1:24:00) speaker_1: And I don’t have to be grateful for the things that have happened, nor do I have to be resilient in that.

(1:24:10) speaker_1: Um, I can feel it and then learn to engage and manage what that’s going to be like on my terms. And I wanna encourage that for other adoptees.

(1:24:22) speaker_1: You get to do this on your terms. And, yeah, I wanna encourage mental health and wellness.

(1:24:32) speaker_1: You get to experience and go back to your ancestral roots, even when we don’t know, even when we’ve been removed without consent, to find places, that you come from people, especially communities of color.

(1:24:50) speaker_1: We come from people. And I remind adopted people of that, particularly communities of color…. more than just your adoption.

(1:25:00) speaker_1: You’ve come from people, and what does that define that? What does that to, to mean for you?

(1:25:06) speaker_1: And I don’t accept what other people define as what it means to be Asian, or Korean, or a Korean adoptee, a transracial adoptee. How do you define that?

(1:25:15) speaker_1: And that’s power.

(1:25:17) speaker_0: I love that. It’s almost like, it’s like we have the permission to not have to be resilient.

(1:25:26) speaker_1: Yeah. That’s tiring, isn’t it?

(1:25:29) speaker_0: Yeah. (laughs)

(1:25:30) speaker_1: I think, I think that’s so… Yeah, it’s so Western, right?

(1:25:34) speaker_0: (laughs)

(1:25:35) speaker_1: It’ll be okay now. (laughs) I can be different. I can be… Transition.

(1:25:40) speaker_1: I can be changed and be impacted, but I don’t have to be resilient, unless that’s what you want to be.

(1:25:47) speaker_1: But may it be how you define that and how others expect that of you.

(1:25:53) speaker_0: J. A, how can people find out more about your work, and are you open to being contacted or… I, I know you’re-

(1:26:01) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:26:01) speaker_0: … shifting gears, so you may not be as open to being contacted.

(1:26:07) speaker_1: Yeah. I’ll, um… I’ve, I’ve set mine. People are welcome to, um… Folks are welcome to reach out email-wise.

(1:26:15) speaker_1: Give me at least 48 hours to respond, unless, of course, you’re an active client @counsel, so C-U-N as in Nancy, S-E-L @mcscounsel.com.

(1:26:29) speaker_1: Really, I’ve, I’ve pulled back. I’ve shut down the majority of my website, and I’m not so much on, uh, social media. I really protect my, um-

(1:26:42) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Sure.

(1:26:43) speaker_1: … my family. And, um, I was at one point, and it burned me out. Um…

(1:26:49) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:26:51) speaker_1: So for the adoptees who are out there, and especially you, who can be putting our voices out there, and putting yourself out there, like, major props.

(1:26:59) speaker_1:

(1:26:59) speaker_0: Oh. Well, thank you, and-

(1:27:03) speaker_1: Thanks.

(1:27:04) speaker_0: Thank you, uh, f- also for, uh, the incredible work.

(1:27:08) speaker_0: I can’t even imagine getting into this work when you did at a time when there were very few other transracial adoptee therapists out there.

(1:27:20) speaker_0: And then, uh, you know, I don’t even know for your c- for your other practitioners, if you, adoptee, uh, adoptees of color.

(1:27:30) speaker_0: I mean, I know there’s a directory, but it’s gonna be-

(1:27:34) speaker_1: Yeah.

(1:27:35) speaker_0: … hard to even find your own kind of supports and…

(1:27:40) speaker_1: Yeah. I, I will say this. Uh, we’ve got… There’s a, a community.

(1:27:44) speaker_1: And so particularly for adoptees of color who are doing, clinicians, who are doing this work, there’s… We have a very private, um…

(1:27:53) speaker_1: We have a private, uh, list serve. And so if you are interested, especially if you are adoptee clinician, um, yeah, feel free to hit me up.

(1:28:05) speaker_1: We provide support for one another, ’cause it’s more than just working within adopt systems. It’s also working…

(1:28:14) speaker_1: There’s a lot of, just a lot of racialized aggressions and oppression and, uh, othering, particularly as adopted people, um, in mental health and working in this, in the field professionally.

(1:28:27) speaker_1: And… Yeah, there’s some great… Gosh, there’s great scholars and activists and artists and people out there. So I wanna… Yeah.

(1:28:37) speaker_1: Elevating our community and… We’re power. Y’all were power. (instrumental music)