This week, I talk with Rachel Forbes, LCSW, an Korean-American adoptee therapist and educator. We discuss trauma that occurs in the womb and from early parent separation, and emotional disregulation. Forbes, 34, talks about healing techniques and provides a lot of great resources too. 

CW: child molestation/incest/sexual abuse 

Audio available Feb. 2, 2024.

(0:00:15) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 11 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean intercountry adoptees.

(0:00:29) speaker_1: What we see is a lot of really dysregulated nervous systems.

(0:00:35) speaker_0: In this episode, I sit down and talk with Rachel Forbes. She’s a Korean adoptee and licensed social worker.

(0:00:42) speaker_0: She uses her lens of being a transracial adoptee to inform her therapeutic and education work. We talk about the three Fs. Don’t know what they are?

(0:00:52) speaker_0: Keep listening. Adoptee mental health is so important. One note, this episode should not be considered as medical advice.

(0:01:46) speaker_1: My name is Rachel Forbes, and I am 34 years old. I am a licensed clinical social worker, a therapist with a private practice in Connecticut.

(0:01:57) speaker_1: And I work mostly with adult individuals, predominantly adoptees, but also with a population largely struggling with attachment trauma, with symptoms of depression and anxiety, struggling with self-esteem.

(0:02:14) speaker_1: But I do mostly work with adoptees.

(0:02:17) speaker_0: I know I’ve seen the stat that adoptees are, what is it, four times more likely to, to die by…

(0:02:24) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:02:24) speaker_0: … suicide.

(0:02:27) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:02:28) speaker_0: Wondering, can we say that adoptees are more prone to suffer from depression and anxiety and have mental health issues?

(0:02:42) speaker_1: Hmm.

(0:02:42) speaker_1: So that’s a great question, one with which, because I am not a researcher, while I am totally aware of that statistic, I really don’t know on a much broader scale.

(0:02:55) speaker_1: But what I can say is this, that what we do find is that people who have struggled with early life trauma, early life adverse childhood experiences, they are more prone to struggling with mental health and emotional regulation in later life.

(0:03:14) speaker_1: So whether that be attachment trauma through adoption, attachment trauma in other forms, or any other kind of emotional, physical, and sexual trauma, they all contribute to, you know, our sense of self, our self-esteem, our felt sense of safety in this world in any environment.

(0:03:38) speaker_1: And so I think that with a history of trauma, it, of course, is gonna have long-term impact.

(0:03:45) speaker_1: For adoptees, of course, there is inherent trauma in that process.

(0:03:50) speaker_1: So I will say that, yes, adoptees have a greater susceptibility to struggling with mental health issues in that regard, but I think it’s also worth noting that people, human beings in general, when they experience early life trauma, again, it’s gonna have that long-term impact.

(0:04:09) speaker_1: I hope that answers the question. (laughs)

(0:04:11) speaker_0: Yeah. I mean, that early separation from a parent, your primary or your mother…

(0:04:18) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:04:19) speaker_0: Can you talk a little bit about what does that trauma look like?

(0:04:23) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:04:23) speaker_1: And it’s interesting because there are also studies and research now understanding how it actually begins not at the separation at birth or after birth, but it can also happen in utero.

(0:04:39) speaker_1: So, so much of stress levels and birth parent, birth mother’s emotion regulation also impacts the emotion regulation of the baby in utero.

(0:04:50) speaker_1: And what we also understand through the studies of epigenetics, there can also be greater susceptibility based upon generational, like environmental experiences and life experiences that will influence the child’s regulation, responses to certain environmental stressors.

(0:05:07) speaker_1: And so it can actually start in utero just based upon bonding, attachment, cortisol levels of the birth parent influencing the emotion regulation of the baby.

(0:05:19) speaker_1: And then, of course, for example, what we tell the mothers and parents of newborns, the first thing they do when a baby is born is they place that, that baby directly in skin-to-skin contact with the birth parent, birth mother.

(0:05:33) speaker_1: And the reason for that is specifically for emotion regulation, and having all of those chemical and hormonal connections with the birth parent help to regulate the baby’s response to the environment and stress.

(0:05:48) speaker_1: And so what we know from that information alone, for example, is that…… that attachment, that security and bonding.

(0:05:56) speaker_1: That secure bonding is so, so crucial for a baby’s development.

(0:06:00) speaker_1: And so for adoptees, when there is severance of that in those first, you know, early years of life, especially birth to three where that development and co-regulation and attachment is really significant, disruption throughout that, significant disruption is, of course, gonna have impact on the baby’s nervous system.

(0:06:21) speaker_1: So when we talk about attachment trauma for adoptees, yes, we’re talking largely about relinquishment, severance of attachment from early caregivers and birth parent.

(0:06:31) speaker_1: So that can be the attachment, of course, developed in utero and in early life with birth parent, and also with foster families and foster parents, any attachment and bonding that’s formed in that place, or in any other placement, even in an orphanage, for example.

(0:06:45) speaker_1:

(0:06:45) speaker_2: And it’s so interesting, you know, as adoptees, when we arrive in our adoptive homes, we’re already front-loaded with a lot of real challenges-

(0:06:57) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:06:59) speaker_2: … that may go unaddressed in our adoptive homes.

(0:07:03) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:07:04) speaker_2: How do you see that play out with the clients you see and as adults? How does that kind of manifest over time?

(0:07:11) speaker_1: Yeah. Honestly, what we see is a lot of really dysregulated nervous systems.

(0:07:17) speaker_1: And so what I’m talking about when I say that is, you know, our nervous systems are responsible for strengthening our survival, and so there are certain survival responses such as flight, fight, freeze, and fawning, and these can show up in varying forms, such as high anxiety, perfectionism, bouts of rage or even total shutdown, disassociation, numbness.

(0:07:46) speaker_1: And so when the nervous system is highly dysregulated, what it means is that oftentimes some of those survival techniques and adaptations can kind of hijack the system and take up the majority of space and energy in day-to-day life, when perhaps it may not be as needed.

(0:08:04) speaker_1: So a survival response is really significant and important and works really well when there’s an immediate threat to one’s safety.

(0:08:13) speaker_1: But with a dysregulated nervous system, what we find is that some of those stress responses are happening all the time, or, you know, the majority of the time, in places where it may not need to happen.

(0:08:25) speaker_1: So that can present as like someone who is feeling highly anxious all of the time or is very, very concerned with how they’re being perceived by other people and making decisions purely based upon how they’re gonna be perceived by other people, or ensuring that they’re, you know, high achieving and presenting in the world in a perfect kind of way so as to be accepted, to feel a sense of belonging.

(0:08:47) speaker_1: And so when we don’t have this secure sense of self, this grounded sense of self, it can be really hard to operate in the present moment when we’re operating from a survival perspective and mode where we’re constantly ensuring that we’re safe, even if there’s, let’s say, not actually an immediate threat to our safety, but there’s this internal felt belief and sense that it’s not safe, and so we’re constantly trying to adapt in this particular way.

(0:09:16) speaker_1: So it’s presenting in these symptoms that have reached a place of unmanageability, where either feeling really, really depressed, which is actually more of like a parasympathetic dorsal vagal shutdown response, where, you know, the overwhelm is too great and so instead we’re just gonna shut everything down, numb out, we don’t feel, we don’t care.

(0:09:37) speaker_1: And so what all of these symptoms that get deemed as anxiety, depression, et cetera, what we understand from a complex trauma perspective is that they’re actually adaptive survival responses, and so, you know, what we were talking about earlier with an earlier life, if there’s a disruption or dysregulation of the nervous system, until and when it sort of gets understood, acknowledged and re-regulated to establish more internal harmony, we’re operating essentially from a survival state the majority of the time.

(0:10:07) speaker_1:

(0:10:07) speaker_2: Yeah, and I think for a lot of us, we can seem like we’re highly functioning.

(0:10:13) speaker_2: I know for myself, I’m a journalist and, you know, couple degrees, and from the outside, I think I can present as a very functional, and, you know, I have a podcast and…

(0:10:24) speaker_2: (laughs) But, um…

(0:10:26) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:10:27) speaker_2: Personally speaking, I have had challenges with interpersonal relationships, and, you know, full disclosure, I’m in therapy. I have a CAD therapist.

(0:10:36) speaker_2: I love CAD therapists. (laughs)

(0:10:37) speaker_1: Ooh. Amazing.

(0:10:38) speaker_2: I highly recommend… Yeah, I highly recommend, as a Korean adoptee, if you can, seek out a CAD therapist. Just the lived experience alone is just so invaluable.

(0:10:48) speaker_2:

(0:10:48) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:10:48) speaker_2: And also, I’ve learned that you can become a licensed social worker or therapist and really have no expertise in adoption because of-

(0:10:56) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:10:56) speaker_2: … the way the US, uh…

(0:10:58) speaker_2: You could probably talk more about that, but it’s an elective or optional coursework, and so a social worker today may be empathetic, but may not be really qualified to-

(0:11:09) speaker_1: Right.

(0:11:09) speaker_2: … adequately provide care for adoption-related trauma.

(0:11:12) speaker_1: Right.

(0:11:13) speaker_2: Yeah.

(0:11:13) speaker_1: Absolutely, and I’m in such agreement with you that there’s such power in working with somebody who not only, like, intellectually knows it, but there’s this felt resonance, right, in the space, where some things, when you say it, there’s just this depth of understanding that this person across the screen or across the room really understands in an embodied way what I’m experiencing.

(0:11:36) speaker_1: And there’s such power in that, in the healing space and in that exchange of energy, so I really get that. I really get that.

(0:11:43) speaker_2: So yeah, talking about the dysregulation that you do see quite often in our community, and, uh, the fight, flight, and can you also talk about the fawning?

(0:11:55) speaker_2: What is the fawning?

(0:11:58) speaker_1: Fawning is more widely known as, like, people-pleasing, where we self-sacrifice our own needs to ensure that everyone around us is feeling okay, because when they’re feeling okay, then we feel more safe.

(0:12:12) speaker_1: But what happens, of course, is that it comes at such a cost to our own wellbeing. So again, otherwise known as people-pleasing. Mm-hmm.

(0:12:20) speaker_2: You know, and I think that’s something I really struggled with also, because I remember in my 20s especially that I think I had done so much fawning in my life that I really didn’t know how I felt about things.

(0:12:34) speaker_2:

(0:12:35) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:12:36) speaker_2: Trying to people-please in my family.

(0:12:38) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:12:38) speaker_2: And I think that may be common among adoptees, where we are so attuned to our adoptive parents’ feelings and thoughts-

(0:12:47) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:12:47) speaker_2: … that we sort of play this role to be what they want, you know? And, and I do think that’s-

(0:12:53) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:12:54) speaker_2: … adoption-related. There’s an aspect of trying to please and be the child that our adoptive parents wanted.

(0:13:01) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:01) speaker_2: But to your point, you can live your life and come to a point where you wake up one day and realize, you don’t really have thoughts or feelings of your own.

(0:13:10) speaker_2:

(0:13:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:10) speaker_2: Or you’ve sacrificed them.

(0:13:11) speaker_1: Yeah. And even as you say that, I’m wondering, would you be open to sharing about the moment that you had where you may have recognized that?

(0:13:19) speaker_1: Does it feel like it was a significant moment, or just…

(0:13:23) speaker_2: Yeah. So a, a little backstory about me. Um, I am a child sex abuse survivor. Um…

(0:13:31) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:32) speaker_2: My adoptive father sexually molested me when I was-

(0:13:37) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:13:37) speaker_2: … around 11. But it’s something where I really had to shut down, I think, to survive in my family. And I had to…

(0:13:45) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:45) speaker_2: I actually, and I know this is kind of textbook. I forgot about it for about 10 years until-

(0:13:50) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:13:51) speaker_2: …. I was about 25. And then, it came out, and I just had a rage.

(0:13:54) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:13:55) speaker_2: And I wanted everyone in my family to know. Like, my brothers didn’t know, and they were-

(0:14:00) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:14:00) speaker_2: … not adopted, but they were under the same roof, and they didn’t know that it had occurred.

(0:14:05) speaker_2: Y- you have to sort of live under their rules, and I really didn’t have an outlet to talk about my own feelings-

(0:14:11) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:14:11) speaker_2: … after that occurred. And it was one of those, like, don’t bring it up and, you know, sweep it under the rug and it never happened kind of thing.

(0:14:18) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:14:18) speaker_2: You know, don’t, don’t talk about it.

(0:14:20) speaker_2: But around in, like, my mid 20s, I think it was, you know, sort of when you start dating and the opposite sex, having relationships with men, and that kind of bringing up the trauma and the abuse with my dad and feelings of mistrust towards men.

(0:14:37) speaker_2:

(0:14:37) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:14:38) speaker_2: And I do remember with relationships, always asking friends, “How should I feel about a certain situation with a guy?” Like, let’s say.

(0:14:47) speaker_2: Realizing that I didn’t really know how-

(0:14:50) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:14:50) speaker_2: … I should feel, that I was seeking outwardly to other people to tell me how to feel.

(0:14:55) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:14:57) speaker_2: And I think that’s when I started to really kind of identify that that wasn’t normal, you know, when you’re a child.

(0:15:02) speaker_2: And this is sort of your developmental period.

(0:15:05) speaker_2: You know, I was 11, but when you’re a child and you go up to a stove and you touch a hot burner, you cry or scream, you know, it hurts.

(0:15:12) speaker_2: There’s pain, and then you learn not to do it again.

(0:15:15) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:15) speaker_2: But in a case where someone’s hurt you and there’s been abuse, and you’re supposed to not react.

(0:15:21) speaker_1: Right.

(0:15:22) speaker_2: I think that it was this, I wasn’t in touch with knowing how to know what was bad and what was good or what was hurtful and what was not.

(0:15:31) speaker_1: Right.

(0:15:31) speaker_2: I- i- it’s, it’s difficult sometimes for me to feel, I think the feel.

(0:15:36) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

(0:15:37) speaker_2: So I ask others how I should feel. And I think that’s when I first started to notice that it might be a problem I need to address.

(0:15:48) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow, thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah.

(0:15:54) speaker_2: And I think that’s, you know, from the fawning, could be.

(0:15:57) speaker_1: Well, what I’m also hearing is that, you know, your trauma was treated as something that wasn’t to be talked about, was swept under the rug, like you said.

(0:16:07) speaker_1: There was a quieting about it, a shutting down about it.

(0:16:11) speaker_1: (laughs) And what I’m also hearing is that the consequence of that was that you, it sounds like you did shut it down a bit, and you, you didn’t quite know how to feel or what you were feeling perhaps?

(0:16:22) speaker_1: And so, it’s actually quite amazing too that you had the awareness too to ask, right?

(0:16:28) speaker_1: To even acknowledge or notice, “I actually, I m- I may not know,” right? ‘Cause we inquire when we’re not sure.

(0:16:35) speaker_1: And so even just the curiosity towards other people of, “How should I feel?

(0:16:40) speaker_1: ” It sounds like while there may not have been the intellectualization of that, I, I hear this sort of, like, felt sense that there’s a disconnect, right?

(0:16:49) speaker_1: That something doesn’t feel fully connected. Something may not feel right.

(0:16:54) speaker_1: There’s something that felt a little bit off, that it sounds like you may have naturally reached out, out of curiosity, in this sort of interesting…

(0:17:05) speaker_1: I mean, you know, maybe interesting doesn’t feel like the right word, but, but in a way.

(0:17:08) speaker_2: I also feel like maybe there was a numbness too. Like, I didn’t feel.

(0:17:13) speaker_1: Yeah. Right, right.

(0:17:14) speaker_2: And I think that maybe that was a self-protection…

(0:17:18) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:17:18) speaker_2: … sort of way to survive or some mechanism that I learned.

(0:17:22) speaker_1: I mean, yeah, it is. The dorsal vagal response is a shutdown.

(0:17:26) speaker_1: It’s this brilliant response in a sense, when, for example, a lion is eating a gazelle, you know, they go through the dorsal vagal response that just shuts it down so they can’t feel the pain.

(0:17:37) speaker_1: And so, it’s got brilliant survival techniques, but of course, until and if the trauma is addressed, it can have long-lasting effects because there’s an uncertainty and insecurity around what does feel safe, what does safety feel like?

(0:17:53) speaker_1: But if there was a learning that when you have a feeling, we don’t talk about it, we shut it down, we sweep it under the rug-We internalize that.

(0:18:01) speaker_1: You know? We really pick up on that messaging, and then our bodies make this decision, especially if, let’s say, it’s worked before when we shut it down.

(0:18:09) speaker_1: So, I really, I really get that, and the fawning also resonates with me personally too, and the shutdown too.

(0:18:18) speaker_1: It’s like when it feels safer to assess what’s around us, that’s a brilliant survival technique, but it also comes at quite a cost when we don’t have that internal balance, you know.

(0:18:30) speaker_1: I- This isn’t to say that survival techniques aren’t supportive and important during certain moments in time, but it’s when we get stuck in that is when it can have daily life disruption.

(0:18:41) speaker_1:

(0:18:41) speaker_2: What do you advise your clients who are struggling with trying to come to terms with their trauma as adults, whether it’s the dysregulation?

(0:18:52) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:18:53) speaker_1: I mean, firstly, I love what you said about seeking either an adoption competent, you know, trained in adoption competency therapist or an adoptee therapist themselves.

(0:19:04) speaker_1: I think that that’s a really significant piece that has a different kind of impact than someone who’s not adoption-informed, more significantly so.

(0:19:15) speaker_1: And when we’re talking about nervous system dysregulation, we’re really talking about what happens inside of the body in an autonomic way that we’re not even fully conscious of.

(0:19:26) speaker_1: I love the somatic work, you know, somatic experiencing.

(0:19:30) speaker_1: I love internal family systems, polyvagal theory, because they tap into not only, like, the intellectualization we can have of our feelings where we can sort of process and analyze through talk therapy, we can recognize and understand with greater depth, but also to start to attune to what’s happening inside of our bodies.

(0:19:51) speaker_1: Even, you know, when you share that you started to ask friends, “What, what do you feel? How am I supposed to feel?

(0:19:59) speaker_1: ” There was still this curiosity about, “What’s supposed to be happening in my body? What does that feel like,” right?

(0:20:05) speaker_1: This curiosity about there’s some sort of dissonance between what’s happening in my mind or what’s happening around me and what I’m experiencing inside my body.

(0:20:12) speaker_1: And so, I love the kinds of therapies and approaches that address both, the relationship with the body, with the nervous system, in conjunction with understanding why that might be happening, how long that’s been happening, and what might need to happen to then create a greater felt sense of safety in our bodies.

(0:20:32) speaker_1: It’s this combination of intellectualization and also embodied understanding and awareness.

(0:20:37) speaker_2: And I think in situations where if you’re in families where you felt unsafe or you-

(0:20:43) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:20:43) speaker_2: …

(0:20:43) speaker_2: you know, abuse of some sort, I think there’s a feeling of maybe, I know in my own case too, being drawn to situations that are, i- in life as adults that are not safe-

(0:20:55) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:20:56) speaker_2: … because it’s familiar.

(0:20:57) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:20:57) speaker_2: And I know my big lesson, one that’s always evolving-

(0:21:02) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:02) speaker_2: … is trying to surround myself with safe people-

(0:21:05) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:05) speaker_2: … and setting boundaries with people who are not safe for me-

(0:21:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

(0:21:11) speaker_2: … and, and realizing that and actually putting it in practice.

(0:21:15) speaker_1: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think a key component to that too is knowing what safety means, right? What does safety feel like? How do we know we feel safe?

(0:21:26) speaker_1: How do we know when we don’t feel safe? What does that feel like, right? Being able to differentiate the two.

(0:21:32) speaker_1: Because like you’re saying, right, sometimes if we’ve experienced a lot of unsafety in early life, that feels familiar and sometimes comfortable, and we can associate that with being the norm.

(0:21:43) speaker_1: And so, yeah, we do find ourselves seeking the same kinds of relationships for one reason, out of familiarity.

(0:21:49) speaker_1: But what’s interesting too that I’ve also found in my own inner work as well as in working with clients too is that sometimes those parts of us that have experienced early life trauma may seek redemption in other relationships, where, “Maybe this time it’ll be different,” right?

(0:22:08) speaker_1: “If I do this a little bit differently or if I can, you know, do X, Y, or Z, maybe this time they’ll stay,” or, “Maybe this time they’ll love me,” or, “Maybe this time they’ll treat me with more love and kindness and compassion.

(0:22:20) speaker_1: ” And it’s sometimes on a very subconscious level, but again, not only familiarity, but sometimes also redemption.

(0:22:27) speaker_2: And also, it sounds like I’m hearing, uh, still that seeking of approval too, that, “If I do something-“

(0:22:35) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:22:35) speaker_2: “… differently, they’ll love me more,” or-

(0:22:38) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:22:38) speaker_2: “… I’ll get validation externally-“

(0:22:40) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:22:41) speaker_2: “… instead of maybe focusing on that self-validation.”

(0:22:45) speaker_1: Exactly. Exactly.

(0:22:46) speaker_1: And that’s where the regulation and the healing kind of lies is that at a certain point, we start to figure out and sense that, “Okay, this, this isn’t quite working, is it?

(0:22:57) speaker_1: And I’m consistently finding myself feeling unsafe, feeling not great. It’s not working.

(0:23:03) speaker_1: And so, what can I do differently so that I’m not feeling this way or that I can actually receive the love that I’m seeking, the kind of love and gentleness and care?

(0:23:14) speaker_1: ” And I think you’re speaking to something really powerful where, yes, we actually do need that in connection with other people.

(0:23:21) speaker_1: Also, the experience of having safe relationships, of having people show up with kindness, authenticity, love, and care, healthily boundaried, but also for us to develop a relationship with ourselves in that same kind.

(0:23:36) speaker_1: So that if and when other people may not be available or may not have the capacity to give that to us in all given moments, we have some inner resources to then respond to ourselves in those moments when we do feel really alone, unloved, or unworthy.

(0:23:53) speaker_1: It’s a lot of work, honestly. (laughs) Yeah.

(0:23:56) speaker_2: Oh, it’s… Yeah. It’s a lot of work.

(0:23:59) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:24:00) speaker_2: You know, with our community, if you accept the fact that a lot of us, maybe the majority, whether they know it or not, are dealing with issues of dysregulation-

(0:24:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:10) speaker_2: … or struggling with the fight-flight-fawning, you know-

(0:24:13) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:14) speaker_2: … various outcomes from having trauma.

(0:24:17) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:17) speaker_2: How do you feel safe in the community, or how can you feel safe?

(0:24:22) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:24:22) speaker_2: Because on the one hand, we have conferences and get-togethers and fly-in’s and people talk about being seen for the first time and really having these bonding experiences and this close connections.

(0:24:36) speaker_2: But there is a flip side to that-

(0:24:38) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:38) speaker_2: … that I’ve found in my life, and I’ve heard also from others, that the community can also be quite toxic. And that-

(0:24:46) speaker_1: Mm.

(0:24:46) speaker_2: … I imagine with people, whether or not they realize it or not, that they’re dealing with dysregulation at various-

(0:24:53) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:53) speaker_2: … levels and then you throw them into this very intense bonding experience-

(0:24:58) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:24:59) speaker_2: … that there could be conflicts, there can be division, there can be-

(0:25:03) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:25:03) speaker_2: … the breakups, you know. It’s, it may not be a safe, supportive space that people might think they are.

(0:25:10) speaker_1: Yeah. It’s, it’s true, and I really appreciate you naming that ’cause I too have heard that from other adoptees.

(0:25:19) speaker_1: I may not have personally experienced it to quite an extreme degree, but it also may be attributed to the fact that I’ve been through decades of therapy myself.

(0:25:29) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:25:29) speaker_2: (laughs) Mm-hmm.

(0:25:30) speaker_1: And I still see a therapist, and I think I’ve worked really hard to develop an internal felt sense of security, so I may not feel as impacted, but I hear what you’re saying, and I do see that this has been sort of a concern for a lot of adoptees in the community.

(0:25:44) speaker_1: And I think there’s a few things. I do think that there is a generally very healing felt resonance in community for us that-

(0:25:53) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:25:53) speaker_1: … right, where for the first time, we are among people with whom we don’t have to explain ourselves, who really get it without needing the words.

(0:26:01) speaker_1: We look at each other, and we’re like, “Yeah, I know.” And then, of course, we all have these adaptive parts, actually just like every other human being.

(0:26:10) speaker_1: We have these parts who have adapted to life in our environment based upon what we have been through.

(0:26:17) speaker_1: And so sometimes some of those adaptive parts can totally hijack, can take over, and let’s say a part who might be really, really rageful is really angry and protective of the parts of them that have felt really vulnerable and have carried deep, deep wounds.

(0:26:33) speaker_1: And so I think what’s really important in adoptee spaces is that two things.

(0:26:39) speaker_1: Like one, we’ve got really informed and maybe trauma-informed facilitators of some of these spaces who might be able to either hold a little bit of space in a more contained way for some people who might be really vocal, because of course, you know, we don’t want to exclude adoptees from their very real felt experience, but we also want to acknowledge how that can influence the other people around them.

(0:27:02) speaker_1: But the other hard truth is that everyone is on their own inner journey, and we really can’t fully control how everyone’s gonna respond or react to what’s coming up in a conference.

(0:27:14) speaker_1: And so I think it’s sort of like facilitators and organizers do their best they can to just sort of honor a truth while also honoring the importance of healthy boundaries within a space.

(0:27:26) speaker_1: But also for people to start to become aware of what does feel safe for them, what spaces do feel safe for them, what spaces might you need to remove yourself if it doesn’t feel safe, if it feels like too much, if it does feel overwhelming.

(0:27:39) speaker_1: And there might be some really felt resonance in spaces where people are having similar big feelings.

(0:27:44) speaker_1: And so I think it could be really beautiful to also have mental health practitioners and therapists in some of these facilitating roles too, where there can be a held space for some of the rage in a healthy, you know, therapeutic kind of way.

(0:27:58) speaker_1: But I recognize that that’s a lot, you know?

(0:28:01) speaker_1: (laughs) That’s a lot, but I think that the mindfulness of that, it’s very reality, and the need for the healthy boundaries and recognition for everyone being on their own journey and how we can honestly trigger one another is really important.

(0:28:16) speaker_1: It’s a great question ’cause I don’t, as I’m trying to envision it, I don’t know how we can fully ensure that external factors can be totally controlled, but I do think we can try our best.

(0:28:26) speaker_1:

(0:28:26) speaker_2: Well, and also that some of the leaders of some of the adoptee groups or social groups themselves-

(0:28:33) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:28:33) speaker_2: … may not have great boundaries or may be rageful or themselves have dysregulation.

(0:28:40) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:28:40) speaker_2: Whereas I resonate to what you said, that it can look like having a much larger response than what is really needed or necessary to a situation.

(0:28:50) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it can be really harmful, right? Of course, without the intention to do so, but it can have harmful impact, you know?

(0:28:59) speaker_1: And I, I do hear what you’re saying, and I agree.

(0:29:01) speaker_2: Yeah, I’ve had people contact me that are perhaps new to the community that, you know, had a bad experience in one of the Facebook groups where they’ve posted something-

(0:29:11) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:29:11) speaker_2: … innocently and then felt attacked.

(0:29:13) speaker_1: Oy.

(0:29:14) speaker_2: And then come to me saying, “Oh, I thought this was a safe space.”

(0:29:18) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:29:18) speaker_2: And I’ve learned the hard way as well that, you know, you really have to be careful when you’re wading into even the online communities.

(0:29:26) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:29:26) speaker_1: Yeah, and I think too, especially in this, like, social media era and culture of my voice needs to be heard, my voice deserves to be heard, my experience needs to be heard.

(0:29:38) speaker_1: All of which is true and very valid and important, but sometimes what can happen too is that we, like, steamroll over (laughs) other people’s experiences in that process.

(0:29:48) speaker_1: And I really don’t mean to say this in a way that’s dismissing the voices that understandably need advocacy, that need to be heard.

(0:29:56) speaker_1: But I think there is some caution around when we do that, are we also in process silencing other people in their experiences?

(0:30:04) speaker_1: And so, but that’s tough, right? Because usually a rageful part or a part who’s felt so unheard throughout a lifetime is like, “No, I need to be heard.

(0:30:12) speaker_1: This is what’s real, you know? This is not okay.” But uh, it’s, it’s hard, yeah.

(0:30:16) speaker_2: Is that a trauma response as well? The sort of, “I need to be heard”?

(0:30:20) speaker_1: I would say yes, and in a way of, you know, there’s one thing to say that from a positioning of like confidence, clarity, firmness, just knowing that I am deserving of taking up space in this world, my voice and my feelings are valid, it’s okay for me to voice them, I deserve to be heard.

(0:30:39) speaker_1: But when that’s without consideration for other external factors, that you are also part of a collective, you are part of a community, then that can be pretty harmful.

(0:30:50) speaker_1: And so it’s sort of like when we do that only with consideration for ourselves, that to me signals more of an adaptive response that says, “I’m tired of not being heard.

(0:31:02) speaker_1: I’m sick of this. I will not tolerate anything less than.

(0:31:05) speaker_1: ” But the reality is that other people may have different experiences, other people may have less emotional capacity because of their own inner work to be able to hold that space fully for you.

(0:31:16) speaker_1: And it doesn’t make one person better or less than the other person.

(0:31:20) speaker_1: It’s just simply where a person is based upon resources they’ve had, experiences they’ve had.

(0:31:26) speaker_1: So the expectation for everyone to cater to how you’re feeling in a given moment isn’t a fair ask. Does that make sense?

(0:31:34) speaker_2: Mm. Mm-hmm. So you mentioned somatic healing techniques. What are some examples?

(0:31:39) speaker_1: So for example, I mean, this may sound so cliché, (laughs) but, you know, even attuning to breath, right, because even when we’re breathing, we’re, you know, when we take an inhale, we’re starting to activate some of that sympathetic, more heightened response, and then when we exhale, we’re activating some of that parasympathetic, actually more ventral vagal, more centered, grounded, calming, easing, resting, and digesting the nervous system.

(0:32:08) speaker_1: So even getting to know our breath work, understanding how it works with our bodies is powerful.

(0:32:15) speaker_1: There’s also just starting to notice, like when we have, let’s say you’re having a fight response.

(0:32:22) speaker_1: Rather than either trying to stop it or get rid of it, just starting to gently notice, “How does that show up in my body? What does that feel like?

(0:32:31) speaker_1: ” And actually practicing just staying with it, getting curious, and seeing what happens next, right?

(0:32:38) speaker_1: Because part of the survival response and then the restful digesting space is that there’s this follow-through.

(0:32:45) speaker_1: So somatic experiencing also understands this follow-through of that response for it to then reach a place of resting and digesting.

(0:32:53) speaker_1: But somatic experiencing, largely contributed to by Peter Levine, what he talks about is that sometimes we get stuck in that survival response where we haven’t allowed it to release, where we haven’t allowed the follow-through.

(0:33:04) speaker_1: So there’s a lot of movement, such as through shaking, for example, that allows the body to move through fully that flight response that it never got to fully experience when it really needed to so that it can be released.

(0:33:18) speaker_1: Does that make sense?

(0:33:19) speaker_2: Yeah, kind of like where the body was never able to really like have this kind of-

(0:33:26) speaker_1: Fight, yeah.

(0:33:26) speaker_2: … emotional release.

(0:33:27) speaker_1: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, to fight or to flee, or I think he’s talked about, you know, he had a client he was working with who had a really traumatic experience at the dentist where they held her down.

(0:33:42) speaker_1: She couldn’t move, but she was terrified, and she wasn’t able to get out of that space.

(0:33:46) speaker_1: There, her body got stuck in this, “I need to leave, I need to leave, I need to get out,” but there wasn’t a full release.

(0:33:51) speaker_1: So they’re doing this work, she’s lying on the ground, and you know, she allows her body to move through what she really needed to do at that time.

(0:33:59) speaker_1: And that brings her then to a restful digestive space where now my body has escaped that threat of danger, that threat toward safety. Yeah.

(0:34:08) speaker_2: Mm-hmm. What do you think of ayahuasca, ketamine, these kinds of things-

(0:34:13) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:34:13) speaker_2: … I’ve heard some adoptees talk about?

(0:34:16) speaker_1: Yeah, I know in indigenous communities they refer to it as like plant medicine, and the belief is that, for example, with ayahuasca or psilocybin, that plants hold a lot of wisdom and information for us, and I am personally a big fan also because I love earth-based practices.

(0:34:34) speaker_1: I think our connection to nature and the Earth is really important for us, you know, biologically and spiritually.

(0:34:40) speaker_1: So I’ve personally had experiences with psilocybin, and it was absolutely incredible.

(0:34:46) speaker_1: In my experience and from what I’ve heard from other people, while I don’t facilitate it, I’ve worked with people who have-

(0:34:53) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:34:53) speaker_1: … had it, I have friends who’ve had it-

(0:34:54) speaker_2: Mm-hmm.

(0:34:55) speaker_1: …

(0:34:55) speaker_1: who’ve worked with it, that it gives us some access to that unconditional love, that capacity for unconditional self-compassion, that sometimes it’s really hard for us to access without additional support.

(0:35:07) speaker_1: Because a huge part of the trauma work is being able to access some of that self-compassion, that unconditional love, that capacity to hold, to take a look at what our bodies carry without judgment, right?

(0:35:18) speaker_1: And with the kind of love that we really needed.

(0:35:22) speaker_1: And so some of these plant medicines and ketamine can offer access to that inner resource in a way that, you know, again may be less accessible independently.

(0:35:33) speaker_1: So I believe that that’s why it’s so helpful for people who have experienced trauma, and that’s what I’ve heard from other people with, within their own experiences.

(0:35:42) speaker_1: Of course, I’ve also heard some people who’ve had some negative experiences largely because they didn’t have the proper guidance or the people that were there to guide them were not appropriately well trained.

(0:35:52) speaker_1: So if this is something you’re interested in doing, I highly, highly recommend ensuring that wherever you’re receiving the guidance from is from somebody who is highly trained and well experienced.

(0:36:03) speaker_1:

(0:36:03) speaker_2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, how did you come to becoming a therapist in your practice? How did you-

(0:36:12) speaker_1: Yeah. Trauma. (laughs)

(0:36:14) speaker_2: (laughs) Where it all begins.

(0:36:17) speaker_1: Where it all begins, you know?

(0:36:19) speaker_1: I really think that most people in the mental health field have been led to this space because there’s a felt resonance with what it’s like to need it.Yeah.

(0:36:29) speaker_1: You know, honestly, from all of my experience as an adoptee, the trauma that I carry, the trauma that I had to work through, I really struggled with depression, self-esteem, people-pleasing.

(0:36:40) speaker_1: I had a conflicted relationship with my adoptive family that we have worked through since, but took lots of years of therapy to.

(0:36:47) speaker_1: And, of course, the relinquishment trauma. I still hold space for my grief often.

(0:36:52) speaker_1: You know, still I’m in relationship with the parts of myself that carry trauma, and I was so fortunate to have an incredible, incredible, like life-transforming adoption-competent therapist who helped me to understand the nuance, the many layers, what I was experiencing, how and why it was showing up in my relationships with other people, my relationship with myself.

(0:37:17) speaker_1: And having been given that gift, I’m like, “How can I not share this with the world? How can I not share this with other people?

(0:37:25) speaker_1: ” And if it was possible within me, which I felt like was not possible in my earlier life, (laughs) I feel hopeful, you know? It provided hope that healing…

(0:37:33) speaker_1: And I don’t wanna say healing in the sense that we all of a sudden feel totally fine and we never experience challenges or, you know, triggers from trauma, but if I can live a more grounded, self-assured, secure life, amazing.

(0:37:46) speaker_1: I would love to offer that hopefulness and support for other people who are seeking the same. So, totally inspired by trauma.

(0:37:54) speaker_2: (laughs) What would you say to people that are primarily adoptees listening to the podcast?

(0:38:00) speaker_2: What if they’re not sure if what they’re experiencing is trauma-related, or how can they identify that? Does that go to therapy?

(0:38:10) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, I honestly think, yeah, through therapy. I don’t think therapy is necessarily the only route.

(0:38:17) speaker_1: I mean, there are a lot of amazing resources out there via book, via podcast.

(0:38:23) speaker_1: I mean, even YouTube, if you seek out professionals who are talking about trauma, and if something might resonate with you or might feel like, “Oh, yeah, that kind of feels like me.

(0:38:33) speaker_1: This is something that I experience.

(0:38:35) speaker_1: ” I think that we can get to know ourselves in a lot of other ways, or even talking to somebody who’s gone through their own inner work and is on their journey.

(0:38:43) speaker_1: I don’t think therapy alone is the only way, but I do think therapy is a beautiful, beautiful route to just have that space specifically for you to explore.

(0:38:53) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:38:54) speaker_2: Do you have some recommendations that, resources that you could name for people?

(0:38:59) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:38:59) speaker_1: Actually, there was somebody who had posted amazing resources for people who are working through complex trauma books that were not written by white men, which I loved, because the one- (laughs)

(0:39:15) speaker_2: (laughs)

(0:39:15) speaker_1: …

(0:39:15) speaker_1: that I had commonly offered to people was a book by Bessel van der Kolk, which is like, you know, so traditional and well-known in my field, How the Body Keeps the Score.

(0:39:24) speaker_1: I do wanna let your audience know that trigger warning, there are some case scenarios in there with pretty severe trauma.

(0:39:31) speaker_1: But he really walks through understanding the science behind trauma and how that shows up in our bodies and also what we can do to respond to it. Um…

(0:39:41) speaker_1: Oh, here it is. Okay, so this is from Marlene Boyette, who so beautifully posted this on their page.

(0:39:47) speaker_1: So there’s a book called The Deepest Well: Healing the Long-Term Effects of Childhood Trauma and Adversity by Nadine Burke Harris.

(0:39:56) speaker_1: There’s also Healing Resistance: A Radically Different Response to Harm by Kazu Haga. I am so sorry if I’m mispronouncing that name.

(0:40:04) speaker_1: There’s also What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma by Stephanie Fu.

(0:40:10) speaker_1: And there’s also Decolonizing Trauma Work: Indigenous Stories and Strategies by Renee Linklater.

(0:40:16) speaker_1: Also, It Didn’t Start with You by Mark Wolynn, How Inherited Family Trauma Shapes Who We Are and How to End the Cycle.

(0:40:23) speaker_1: So, there are a lot of really beautiful resources out there. I love Internal Family Systems.

(0:40:28) speaker_1: You may also wanna take a look at Richard Schwartz’s work, Polyvagal Theory, Stephen Porges, and Bessel van der Kolk.

(0:40:36) speaker_1: Again, all of these are, you know, white men, so…

(0:40:39) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, but I loved that Marlene offered other resources by people of color as well, because that definitely needs to be included and is lacking in the community.

(0:40:49) speaker_1:

(0:40:49) speaker_2: Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, and this sounds like a great list. I’m gonna click and look at s- (laughs) some of these links myself. So-

(0:40:58) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:40:58) speaker_2: … w- what, what do you think of The Primal Wound?

(0:41:00) speaker_1: So I read it a while ago, but when I picked it back up fairly recently, maybe a couple years ago, I felt like the language was quite antiquated and there were nuance that were missing that we now understand with greater depth.

(0:41:16) speaker_1: And so, while I think that it was really, really important for the time period it came out and offered a lot of important information about relinquishment trauma, I think that it would be beneficial to add a little bit more nuance and a little bit more nuance in the language and word choices.

(0:41:32) speaker_1: But I think that it was, you know, a really important contribution-

(0:41:35) speaker_2: Hmm.

(0:41:35) speaker_1: … for our community.

(0:41:36) speaker_2: And it was written by a white woman?

(0:41:38) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:41:39) speaker_2: Okay. Is there anything you particularly wanted to talk about, Rachael? This has been great.

(0:41:44) speaker_1: Yeah, this has been wonderful, and I really appreciate you sharing parts of your own story, some of which were really traumatic.

(0:41:52) speaker_1: Thank you for sharing that, and-

(0:41:54) speaker_2: Oh, yeah, free therapy. I’ll take it, so… (laughs)

(0:41:57) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs) Well, I’m off the clock, but I’m, I’m happy to, happy to hold the space with you. Absolutely. (laughs)

(0:42:04) speaker_2: Now, are you taking-

(0:42:06) speaker_1: And-

(0:42:06) speaker_2: … are you taking clients?

(0:42:07) speaker_1: I am currently not taking new clients.

(0:42:09) speaker_1: I do have a wait list, but I always tell people who wanna be added to the waitlist, “Please keep searching in the meantime, ’cause I really have no idea how long the wait might be.

(0:42:19) speaker_1: ” And unfortunately, I’m very aware of how hard it is to find a therapist, let alone an adoptee CAD therapist.

(0:42:25) speaker_2: Oh, all the good ones have waitlists. No. (laughs) I’m just…

(0:42:28) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:42:29) speaker_2: (laughs) No, I mean, I think I’m, I’m waiting for your YouTube channel. I mean… (laughs)

(0:42:35) speaker_1: Oh! Thank you.

(0:42:36) speaker_1: I mean, I have been saying for years that I really wanna create some more, like workshops and available resources from the information that I have for those who may not be able, or, you know, for people who might be on the waitlist or who don’t have time to go to therapy and wanna kind of do it at their own pace.

(0:42:53) speaker_1: I’m in process. I’m hoping to be able to do that, specifically for adoptees and attachment trauma and, you know, familiarizing ourselves with our bodies.

(0:43:01) speaker_1: But, you know, I can sometimes be slow to attend to the other things outside of (laughs) work and my family life.

(0:43:08) speaker_2: You have a life too, right? So…

(0:43:10) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:43:11) speaker_2: I mean, that’s the, I think that’s gotta be also a challenge.

(0:43:16) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:43:16) speaker_2: I mean, it’s a sweet spot, right? You’re an adoptee, a CAD, all of that sort of relatability and lived experience.

(0:43:24) speaker_2: But at the same time, you’re also having to hold your own trauma-

(0:43:29) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:43:29) speaker_2: … and work through, and also providing care for others. How do you keep your own self regulated and healthy and with boundaries?

(0:43:40) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, such a… Thank you so much for, for acknowledging that.

(0:43:44) speaker_1: And, you know, it’s something that I’ve always working with because it changes based upon life circumstances.

(0:43:51) speaker_1: But I think something I learned significantly in the last year, because I’ve had some health issues, is how important it is to take care of my vessel, my body.

(0:44:00) speaker_1: So like exercise, nutrition, understanding balances within my body, working with some practitioners who can help me better understand the more holistic approach of what kind of support my body in the way that it’s been operating.

(0:44:13) speaker_1: So I try to pay more attention to my physical care. I go to therapy. I love, love therapy and do a lot of meditative work. I also, I slow down, you know.

(0:44:23) speaker_1: And this is hard for me too as a person who might have a part that always likes to go, go, go and do, do, do, is that I, I do need to rest.

(0:44:30) speaker_1: I need to slow down.

(0:44:32) speaker_1: And so let’s say I’ll, like, take on less clients or see less clients throughout a week, allow myself to have that space and time and also to let myself be really silly and playful with my kid, with my family.

(0:44:44) speaker_1: So on the weekends and in my off-time, I don’t dive into too much heavy stuff.

(0:44:49) speaker_1: While I do want to maintain my education and continue to learn, and I do, I’m cautious of how much time I consume work-related, you know, trauma-related, adaption-related information and work.

(0:45:02) speaker_1: So it’s a balance, but it’s a conscious effort. It’s, it’s part of the process. (laughs)

(0:45:09) speaker_2: I can appreciate all of that.

(0:45:11) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:45:11) speaker_2: And I’m glad to hear that you’re really prioritizing your own health.

(0:45:15) speaker_2: That is the best step that all of us can do, is making ourselves feel good and making healthy choices in what we consume-

(0:45:22) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:45:22) speaker_2: … and in our bodies, our physical bodies, how we’re caring for that too. So…

(0:45:26) speaker_1: Um…

(0:45:27) speaker_2: Is there a centralized list? I feel like there needs to be somewhere of trauma-informed adoptee therapists.

(0:45:35) speaker_1: Yes, there is a directory.

(0:45:37) speaker_2: Yes, awesome. Where can people access that?

(0:45:41) speaker_1: It is Grow Beyond Words. So growbeyondwords.com.

(0:45:46) speaker_2: Mm.

(0:45:47) speaker_1: This was created by Beyond Words Psychological Services, LLC. They created an amazing, amazing directory of all adoptee therapists.

(0:45:56) speaker_1: And, you know, I, I would assume trauma-informed based upon our lived experience.

(0:46:02) speaker_2: Sure, yeah.

(0:46:03) speaker_1: But o- of course cannot guarantee that, I suppose. But yeah…

(0:46:07) speaker_2: My God.

(0:46:08) speaker_1: Shout-out to Beyond Words Psychological Services. Yes.

(0:46:10) speaker_2: Yes. Let’s promote that, and that’s like the Holy Grail link. We need that. (laughs)

(0:46:14) speaker_1: Yes. Yes. Created by Dr. Chaitra Wurteleiker. I’m hoping I’m pronouncing her name correctly. I apologize, Doctor, if I am not, but created by her. Yeah.

(0:46:27) speaker_1:

(0:46:27) speaker_2: Excellent.

(0:46:28) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:46:29) speaker_2: So, um, okay. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. If folks want to follow you on social media or contact you, bear in mind she’s got a waiting list, so…

(0:46:37) speaker_2: (laughs)

(0:46:37) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:46:38) speaker_2: But I understand she doesn’t give out free therapy. But if people want to contact you, are open to that, and if they can follow you?

(0:46:45) speaker_1: Yeah. Of course, of course. Um, my Instagram handle is rachelforbes, R-A-C-H-E-L-F-O-R-B-E-S,.lcsw. So rachelforbes.lcsw on Instagram.

(0:47:01) speaker_1: Also the same on Facebook, Rachel Forbes LCSW. My website is forbespsychotherapy.com where I also have a list of resources for adoptees and adoptive families.

(0:47:15) speaker_1: You can find it on one of my pages. It should be also on the bottom of my main page. So it should say Adoption External Resources.

(0:47:23) speaker_1: And yeah, absolutely, you know, anyone can reach out. I’m happy to chat. It is true I cannot offer free therapy. I wish I could.

(0:47:31) speaker_1: I hope to find myself in a financial position in the future where I can offer pro bono services. Um, but I am just not there yet.

(0:47:38) speaker_1: But feel free to reach out. Feel free to give me a follow.

(0:47:42) speaker_1: And I’m hoping to get some online sort of self-paced workshops out for people if therapy is not accessible at this time.

(0:47:49) speaker_2: I love it. Thank you so much, Rachel.

(0:47:51) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:47:52) speaker_2: This was great.

(0:47:52) speaker_1: Oh, thank you so, so, so much for having me. It was such a wonderful thing to get to talk to you. Thank you.

(0:48:00) speaker_2: (instrumental music) Thank you so much, Rachel. I’m so honored that you joined us to share your insights.

(0:48:12) speaker_2: Thank you to Yougung Jun, our fearless Korean translator. Take care and see you in two weeks. I’m Kaomi Lee. (instrumental music)