I sit down with Alicia Soon Hershey, 41, a Korean transnational adoptee now living in Barcelona. Soon Hershey was the very first adoptee interviewed on the podcast back in 2016 and our conversation book-ends the podcast in the 165th episode (!). We get a chance to hear how she has evolved in the past eight years and her outlook for life now that she is a mother herself.
Audio available Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 7 am CST.
Transcript by AI.
(0:00:05) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast. This is Season 7, Episode 26, and it’s the 165th episode, and it all starts now.
(0:00:17) speaker_0: This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees. Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption.
(0:00:30) speaker_0: I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.
(0:00:34) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families, and society that only wants a feel-good story.
(0:00:46) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.
(0:00:52) speaker_1: I don’t want that to be the thing that I’m talking about to my child at age 70, or that I’m, uh, in terms of what is the definition, what is the representation of the life that I’ve led.
(0:01:03) speaker_1:
(0:01:03) speaker_0: This next episode is a conversation with Alicia Soon Hershey.
(0:01:07) speaker_0: It’s a bookend of sorts, as Alicia was the first adoptee interview on Adapted Podcast back in 2016.
(0:01:16) speaker_0: I remember lugging up my recorder up many stairs in the Nokseon-byeong neighborhood in Seoul to Alicia’s apartment, only to hear a devastating story of pain, loss, and so many life experiences that seemed unfair and unjust.
(0:01:34) speaker_0: Fast-forward eight years, and I caught up with Alicia, who is now living in Spain.
(0:01:40) speaker_0: You might hear the sound waffle in and out a bit because of internet connections, but the stories shared are consistently all heart. Here’s Alicia.
(0:01:51) speaker_1: Hi. I am… I go by Alicia Soon, or Alicia Soon Hershey now, professionally. And I am an English teacher now living in Barcelona, Spain.
(0:01:51) speaker_1: Um, grew up in rural Pennsylvania, adopted by Mennonites, born in Busan.
(0:02:06) speaker_1: I was in the mid- the 1985, class of 1985 (laughs) in terms of, um, adoptee imports, and I was lucky enough to be adopted with my biological sister. We…
(0:02:29) speaker_1: Yeah, long story. Yeah, I don’t know. Uh, h- what else? Should I bring us up to today, or do you want more information about my adoptee
(0:02:36) speaker_2: Yeah. Yeah. So, so tell us, uh, how old you are today.
(0:02:39) speaker_1: Okay.
(0:02:39) speaker_0: Um-
(0:02:40) speaker_1: I’m-
(0:02:40) speaker_0: … and what your pronouns are-
(0:02:42) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:02:42) speaker_0: I don’t know if I asked you that before, but-
(0:02:43) speaker_1: Oh yeah, I’m 41 now. My pronouns are she and her, and they always have been. I think I missed that that is a thing now that people, um-
(0:02:53) speaker_0: (laughs)
(0:02:54) speaker_1: … declare, which I love because I live in Spain, and you know, I don’t, I don’t think that people ask that, which is yet, you know? Uh-
(0:03:02) speaker_0: True.
(0:03:02) speaker_1: … or people make it well-known bec- with the adjectives they use to describe themselves. So mine are still feminine, and, um, yeah. I am 40 now.
(0:03:12) speaker_1: I’m mother of one, a young lady named Ruby Sun. Um, she has an Italian last name, because she has an Italian dad, and we are living here in Barcelona.
(0:03:26) speaker_1: What else? Um, it’s very interesting to be a mom, and also an, um, Asian American mom in a very white country.
(0:03:36) speaker_1: Um, I do feel sometimes that I’ve gone back in time to 1980s rural Pennsylvania (laughs) in terms of, uh, all Asians being Chinese and in terms of like, that’s the perception I mean, not that all Asians are Chinese, but just like the word for Asians is Chinese, but I get asked every day if I’m Chinese or Japanese.
(0:03:56) speaker_1: I get asked to translate Japanese things all the time. (laughs) We’re very weirdly mistreated by strangers. I get people shout “Ni hao” at me regularly.
(0:04:04) speaker_1: But just, um, an interesting place to have chosen for myself, so that’s very interesting and…
(0:04:12) speaker_1: Um, actually it was in the interview with you that I maybe heard myself say aloud for the first time that I wanted to be a mother, which is kind of funny and interesting and full circle.
(0:04:24) speaker_1: And even at the time, not, I didn’t really believe it, but yeah, I think that, hmm, part of my story begins with, mm, a huge distrust in family in general and kind of like, um, feelings of despair around what it means to be family, what mothers are, what mothers, what b- mothers mean to me personally, and then like what my capability and capacity for family and for love are.
(0:04:52) speaker_1: And I think obviously sitting around and f- and conjecturing and feeling bad about it and then like living your life are very different things, and yeah.
(0:05:01) speaker_1: I’m learning day-by-day, and I think that, and the answer to a lot of that is just loving and being present, and so that’s what I’m trying to do.
(0:05:10) speaker_1: I’ve been at it for, I guess a year and eight months she is, so.
(0:05:16) speaker_0: Aw.
(0:05:17) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:05:18) speaker_0: Um, well, congratulations.
(0:05:21) speaker_1: Thanks.
(0:05:21) speaker_0: And I, I do love that for you, that it, that it’s, that it happened, that you became a mother.
(0:05:27) speaker_1: Thanks. Yeah.
(0:05:29) speaker_0: Um, you know, it’s kind of funny because even though it was so long ago when I first met you and interviewed you for the podcast, your epi- Season 1, Episode 1.
(0:05:40) speaker_0:
(0:05:40) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:05:42) speaker_0: Um, and, and so it was, you know, 2016, so many years ago, and yet, um, there’s people who are just discovering the podcast just now, and part of it is, you know, it’s always, um…
(0:05:57) speaker_0: You know, people are coming into their…… adoptee consciousness-
(0:06:02) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:06:02) speaker_0: … always at different times in their lives.
(0:06:04) speaker_1: Right.
(0:06:04) speaker_0: And so, they might be coming in and I know (laughs) I met someone who recently discovered my podcast, um, and then she had to start, she refused to just, she wanted to go right to the beginning.
(0:06:19) speaker_0:
(0:06:19) speaker_1: Okay.
(0:06:20) speaker_0: So she went and heard, found your, your episode.
(0:06:23) speaker_0: And so, I think there’s a lot of folks that maybe are doing it that way too, that they just, they wanna start from the very beginning.
(0:06:31) speaker_1: Okay.
(0:06:32) speaker_0: Um-
(0:06:32) speaker_1: It’s-
(0:06:33) speaker_0: And there you were.
(0:06:34) speaker_0: So, and you, and so, uh, my point in bringing this up too is that folks can go to season one, episode one, to hear more about that point in time, Alicia’s story-
(0:06:44) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:06:45) speaker_0: … um, reflections.
(0:06:46) speaker_0: And just to kinda sum up a little bit, but you know, you talked about having, you know, difficulties with your adoptive family, and very kind of, uh, you know, abusive memories.
(0:06:57) speaker_0:
(0:06:57) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:06:57) speaker_0: Um, and then also, kind, um, you know, there were, i- it’s complex to be-
(0:07:06) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:07:06) speaker_0: … in reunion.
(0:07:07) speaker_1: Yes.
(0:07:07) speaker_0: To find your first fam.
(0:07:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:07:10) speaker_0: And so how did you go from, you know, family being kind of just bringing up all these kinda difficulties in your life, and then thinking it might not be for you, and then making that turn to it could be for you?
(0:07:25) speaker_0:
(0:07:25) speaker_1: Yeah. I think that’s a good question. I don’t know. I think when I was younger, I was very, you know, we loved to make these different, like, characters.
(0:07:35) speaker_1: I know I’ve heard people refer to themselves as the angry adoptee, and I definitely, I was an angry, upset person who maybe felt that, that my experience sort of existed in like a, you know, the a- the abuse, but also this feeling of it happening to me as an adoptee.
(0:07:54) speaker_1: Like, obviously, we were put in our situations. So, that, that sort of existed in my mind and my experience of it was very, like, in a vacuum, I think?
(0:08:04) speaker_1: And when I lived in Korea, it took me a while to kind of, you know, get, really get to know my Korean family and then, like, confront sort of how I felt.
(0:08:15) speaker_1: And honestly, being around other adoptees in Korea helped me so, so much.
(0:08:19) speaker_1: I have, like, you know, shout out to Corey and AK, and like other, uh, and you (laughs) obviously-
(0:08:25) speaker_0: Oh, that’s sweet.
(0:08:25) speaker_1: …
(0:08:25) speaker_1: but other adoptees, uh, Lara, that were in my life that just, it just felt good to be around other stories and other, yeah, stories that resonated with me.
(0:08:34) speaker_1: And I, I, I don’t know, I think maybe going through that, shedding some of those layers and shedding maybe some of the, those, like, “I’m alone in this,” or, “It just happened to me,” kind of feelings, allowed me to open up space in my heart to maybe communicate in a more clear way with both of my sisters, and realize like, no, actually there, there are a lot of people, and I think yourself included, who did experience it alone.
(0:09:00) speaker_1: And I think, uh, my narrative of it is that I was alone, but in fact I wasn’t.
(0:09:05) speaker_1: You know, I, I was with a sister who had very distinct experiences and very intense experiences as well, and I had this Korean sister in Korea who had her own intense experiences that we were, over years, able to figure out and understand.
(0:09:20) speaker_1: And then for me to see the kind of like, loving mother and just generous sister, and resilient, hardworking businesswoman and person that she is, uh, it just helped to inform a bit more of my story.
(0:09:33) speaker_1: I didn’t need to keep living this kind of singular narrative. And also, I think that there was a really big element of blame.
(0:09:40) speaker_1: I, I, I know that you’re not, (laughs) this isn’t a confessional bit, so I really like maybe try to like slow my roll when I say it.
(0:09:47) speaker_0: Hm.
(0:09:47) speaker_1: But I do think that, like, a lot of that just sort of opened up in me.
(0:09:51) speaker_1: And I, I, I did go through my own struggles too, like here and learning, you know, like I talked lightly about what it’s like to be Asian American here, but sometimes I feel like I am the only Asian American in Spain.
(0:10:03) speaker_1: Maybe I am.
(0:10:04) speaker_1: But, um, that rather than just being maybe a first generation Asian immigrant to a predominantly White country as an adult, I’ve already experienced this, and then I have sort of this, the American, “I have a right to be myself,” kind of mentality behind my existence here.
(0:10:24) speaker_1: And so that was, that kind of sent me through a few loops as well.
(0:10:28) speaker_1: And I think over the, the years in my time here, and particularly, like then sort of, uh, like, going through quarantine and the pandemic here, needing to reach out to my importance, and that including both sisters, and being in touch and finding myself really, like, alone here, and very…
(0:10:49) speaker_1: I don’t know. I think that we, I interviewed you just after quarantine, right? That was in 2020.
(0:10:56) speaker_0: Yes.
(0:10:57) speaker_1: And I was going through s- you know, I’d just kinda gone through that all by myself with my cat, obviously, by myself, and then th- the time that followed, and I realized that I really had to call into question, like, what I was doing with my life, what was important to me, who was I with at the end of the day, at the end of the world, you know?
(0:11:16) speaker_1: And I think that-
(0:11:18) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:11:18) speaker_1: … hmm, I really kind of realized how, how much I, I wanted to, to have a family or to be part of a family.
(0:11:26) speaker_1: And then it just sort of accidentally happened, in the way that you desire things and they accidentally, you know, you will them into reality a little bit, you know?
(0:11:35) speaker_1: So, um, yeah. And I think that’s it.
(0:11:37) speaker_1: I, even until the moment that maybe I was, I held her, I didn’t know if I realized that that’s what I was doing, like, “Okay, yeah.
(0:11:46) speaker_1: Hav- having a family now.
(0:11:47) speaker_1: ” But, um, I think it just, a lot of that just kind of came about for me in the way that most of my life has, that you just sort of head in one direction and you kind of go with what’s happening and discover along the way and…
(0:12:03) speaker_1: It just, I think, yeah. I think most 12 kids probably get that way. You don’t really make a big plan. It just sort of happens.
(0:12:10) speaker_0: It’s not like-
(0:12:11) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:12:11) speaker_0: … you wake up and, “Okay! I’m gonna become a mother,” and then, (laughs) and then…
(0:12:16) speaker_1: I know plenty of mo- of mothers do that and have done that and, you know, for a lot of families who, you’re right, but having a kid is a much more conscious choice and effort.
(0:12:25) speaker_1: But in my situation, I was fortunate enough that it’s something that I, I unblocked o- I took out of the I don’t want list.
(0:12:35) speaker_1: (laughs) And then it, it came to me, so. And I feel, yeah, really fortunate.
(0:12:42) speaker_1: She’s such a wild, amazing person and, and child and strangely looks so much like my sister, my, um, my sister in America and because obviously we don’t have baby photos, right?
(0:12:55) speaker_1: So everything, seeing her face, seeing her come through, having her be like half white, half Italian, a lot of these things, and I’m sure all adoptees have this feeling of when, when you see, uh, like kind of matching up your childhood or your lack of babyhood with your biological babe, I don’t know.
(0:13:14) speaker_1: There’s something strange and amazing there and it comes with its own complications too.
(0:13:19) speaker_1: You can, as you can imagine, as I’m sure many people know, uh, in terms of like she’s now approaching the age where like my birth father would’ve died and I would’ve been taken away from my parents, and I think, or my birth mother, and I think about like how that trauma could affect her and did affect baby me.
(0:13:37) speaker_1: And it’s something I can’t really talk about with most of the people in my life, so maybe if any adoptees listening to this wanna have like a support group together (laughs) with me, like yes, please.
(0:13:48) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:13:49) speaker_0: Oh, absolutely.
(0:13:50) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:13:51) speaker_0: Um, remind us again, how old were you when you were separated from your first fam?
(0:13:56) speaker_1: So I came to America when I was two and a half.
(0:13:59) speaker_1: Um, so I know we’d been in the orphanage for a while, but I think probably just around my second birthday or just before my second birthday is when I was separated from my family.
(0:14:11) speaker_1: I don’t think that Erica and I spent a long, long amount of time.
(0:14:14) speaker_1: And actually since I had the interview with you, I’ve learned even more about my family because I hired a, a Korean American friend to come down and translate for me on my very last week in Korea and spent like uh, a special weekend with my birth mother and my, um, my siblings and it was, it was really clarifying.
(0:14:34) speaker_1: I just felt like I had a lot of unanswered things by way of language barrier and also, you know, how Korean works in its indirect ways, you know?
(0:14:42) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:14:43) speaker_1: And I just really needed the an- answers to the direct questions. Uh, but yeah.
(0:14:48) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:14:48) speaker_1: I, I think that, yeah, some nice things were cleared up for me .
(0:14:53) speaker_0: Well, that must’ve been cathartic to actually… Did you get some answers from your birth mother?
(0:14:58) speaker_1: I did. I did, and I also got, um, like the unspoken answers.
(0:15:03) speaker_1: I think the, one of the main things I took away was I think maybe you heard it in your interview with me that I was at the time, what?
(0:15:13) speaker_1: Like I’m 41 now, so that was, I was 35, right? Or something like that.
(0:15:19) speaker_1: And I was still like very emotionally affected by the abuse of my childhood, and it’s something that I still kind of, I would say wore as part of my identity, which is very, a very strange thing to say or think about now.
(0:15:33) speaker_1: But I think that continued up until, and ma- maybe it took me a while to shed it, but up until I had that conversation, like really beautifully translated words of my mother, and at her age, I, I think at the time maybe she was just cresting 70, her, uh, ’cause it’s been six years now since I left Korea.
(0:15:53) speaker_1: Um, when I asked her about her upbringing and, you know, like her life, really the only things she wanted to talk about were her childhood abuse.
(0:16:05) speaker_1: And it made me, it was just like really shocking.
(0:16:08) speaker_1: I felt like kind of gripped with this reality of, and this scenario of, of course so much pain has happened in her life, so much loss and so much suffering, and she still attributes the largest of those to be th- her, the injustice and the mistreatment that she experienced as a child.
(0:16:28) speaker_1: Isn’t that wild? And also so sad and s- so painful for her. And I just remember telling myself as I listened to this like, “You will not carry this pain.
(0:16:43) speaker_1: You will not continue to carry this, and carry this blame, and carry this sorrow and bitterness inside of you until you’re 70, Aleysha. No, no, no.”
(0:16:52) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:16:52) speaker_1: Like, it’s been long enough, you know?
(0:16:55) speaker_3: (instrumental music)
(0:17:06) speaker_0: Hm. Mm. No. I mean, I, so yeah. I’m recalling back, you know, in our, our conversations at that time and, um, and you mentioned earlier like that you wanted…
(0:17:19) speaker_0: It was really on your sleeve and then something you wore as part of your identity and, and you, and you wanted to blame people or someone.
(0:17:31) speaker_0: Uh, you wanted to put blame somewhere, and then what happens when you sort of realize that you’re on a continuum of people who have survived, uh, such trauma and abuse and m- maybe there is no one to blame?
(0:17:48) speaker_0:
(0:17:49) speaker_1: Or maybe, yeah. Maybe there is no one to blame or maybe like that it, it’s my responsibility in some ways.
(0:17:55) speaker_1: It’s one of the hor- most horrible things about being a victim or abuse, but it’s my responsibility in terms of what I’m gonna do with this now, and I’ve heard that my whole life, right?
(0:18:06) speaker_1: Like, “You’re safe now. You’re fine now. Oh, but w- look at what you can do with…” And so maybe not doing anything-…
(0:18:12) speaker_1: was what I needed to blame someone for, right?
(0:18:16) speaker_1: So, I think also maybe the thing that came, like that really hit home was that it’s, like, it’s abuse or mistreatment or not being loved in this world we live in really isn’t that rare.
(0:18:31) speaker_1: Do you know what I…
(0:18:32) speaker_1: It’s not the most surprising thing but I think maybe, like, within the, the communities and the childhood and the privilege in A- in America that we have been brought up in, that did feel so unfair and unjust next to all of the pe- the family relationships and the people that we saw around us, right?
(0:18:55) speaker_1: But now having realized, like, what I was spared leaving Korea in some ways and also, um, what I have seen just being and living in the world, I, I think I’m maybe starting to kind of, I don’t know, I wouldn’t say, like, measure it against the other types of suffering that exists, but realize that in a lot of ways too I’ve had a, a lot of privilege and a lot of, mm, beautiful things and a lot of luck in my life, a lot of great experiences.
(0:19:25) speaker_1: So I don’t want that to be the thing that I’m talking about to my child at age 70 or that I’m, uh, in terms of what, what is the definition, what is the representation of the life that I have led because maybe I have let that shine a lot brighter than other really beautiful and amazing relationships and experiences.
(0:19:49) speaker_1: And it wasn’t a place that I started from and it’s something I can use to measure, like, the distance in my life (laughs) or, or measure time, I guess.
(0:19:58) speaker_1: But I think that I maybe have, yeah, in some ways stopped letting myself think about or talk about it as much or even maybe at all in a, in a, in any way that, that has meaning or takes up weight or space in my life.
(0:20:17) speaker_1: It’s something that, for example, my current partner, uh, Marco knows about, but it’s not something that we spend a lot of time talking about where maybe I, I felt like it was, um, a suitcase that needed to be brought along in my past relationships.
(0:20:30) speaker_1: So-
(0:20:32) speaker_0: I’m just imagining, you know, it’s like this stranger who, like, decamps in your living room.
(0:20:36) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:20:37) speaker_0: And is making a lot of noise and you’re paying attention.
(0:20:41) speaker_0: (laughs) But like now maybe you’ve decided that there’s other people and things you, like making room in your living room for other things and that person can maybe be sort of in the corner and be, be there, but not that you’re letting them be the, the life of the party.
(0:21:02) speaker_0: (laughs)
(0:21:02) speaker_1: Yeah. Th- That’s nice. Yeah.
(0:21:05) speaker_0: (laughs)
(0:21:05) speaker_1: A lot like… And I think I’ll…
(0:21:07) speaker_1: Another thing that has happened too with parenting and I, I think that I’ve had a lot more compassion for my adoptive parents.
(0:21:13) speaker_1: Not saying that I can understand and that’s complicated as well.
(0:21:17) speaker_0: Oh, really?
(0:21:19) speaker_1: Yeah. Just we’re… Because, yeah, I think it’s hard to explain because I’ll, I’ll never understand like what the, why… I mean, I don’t think that people…
(0:21:31) speaker_1: I, maybe I have more of a Ghibli understanding of villains now than a Disney understanding.
(0:21:36) speaker_1: (laughs) You know how in a Ghibli movie, like, all of the bad characters just become like deflated like old hamsters and like i- i- old, old ladies who are just like kind and sweet when they’ve, once they’ve lost their venom and power?
(0:21:50) speaker_1: I think that, that that’s sort of maybe how I feel now where in the past I, I believe saw them as these like powerful, stoic, evil out- like people.
(0:22:01) speaker_1: They made really bad decisions and in fact I’ve had some communication with my birth mom since I had… Or my birth mom. Oof, that was rude.
(0:22:09) speaker_1: But well yes, with her, but my adoptive mom since I had my child and I… Just not a lot, but a few messages here and there and some photos.
(0:22:19) speaker_1: And I think that just giving her kind of some, a little bit of grace and having l- allowed her to, to s- yeah, to talk to me a little bit about, um, her experience from that side of things, not by way of explanation or forgiveness, but by, by s- her…
(0:22:44) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:22:45) speaker_1: I mean I think she even said to me like, “I, if I had to do it again, we wouldn’t have adopted you,” which didn’t necessarily feel great, but I think I understood maybe what she meant, um, kind of knowing the pain that they, they had caused.
(0:22:57) speaker_1: So I think, you know, being young and having experienced real loss, um, and I think what it would look like, what I would look like as a woman having, losing a two-year-old, but now having ha- having one.
(0:23:10) speaker_1: Do you know what I mean?
(0:23:12) speaker_1: That I can imagine the kinds of like bitterness and, and hatred and, and mistakes that people are able to make after such a thing being tired, being overworked, et cetera.
(0:23:26) speaker_1: I, I don’t think there are any perfect moms out there, but I, I don’t think, um, I necessarily, I don’t think I had a good one, you know?
(0:23:34) speaker_1: But I, I can understand maybe that she wasn’t just… That there are circumstances that created her, where in the past I saw her as a very flat, evil character.
(0:23:42) speaker_1: That was a really long (laughs) defense. I heard myself defending her and I was like, “No.” (laughs) but I think-
(0:23:49) speaker_0: Yeah. I mean, some of the things you’re describing, like feeling like they adopted you to, to work you-
(0:23:55) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:23:55) speaker_0: … to work, have a worker on the farm and food deprivation and controlling y- you and also I believe your, you said your bio sister was abused as well.
(0:24:10) speaker_0:
(0:24:10) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah.
(0:24:11) speaker_0: Uh, sexually abused.
(0:24:13) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:24:13) speaker_0: You were also emotionally abused.
(0:24:17) speaker_1: And physically abused.
(0:24:19) speaker_0: And physically abused and-
(0:24:21) speaker_1: Really regularly. Yeah.
(0:24:22) speaker_4: Absolutely.
(0:24:23) speaker_0: And, and then to have…
(0:24:26) speaker_0: Yeah, and then to have your adoptive mom kind of, um, ad- you know, um, acknowledge in a way to say, “We wouldn’t have adopted you,” which it- in hindsight maybe.
(0:24:42) speaker_0: And I’m sure that, that, like you said, doesn’t feel great to hear, but it’s almost like an acknowledgement, like, that things happened and it- that harm-
(0:24:52) speaker_4: Yeah.
(0:24:52) speaker_0: They created harm.
(0:24:53) speaker_4: Yeah. Definitely, like she spoke about-
(0:24:58) speaker_1: She tried… So I- it was once… Would it have been after?
(0:25:02) speaker_1: Yeah, it would have been after we had, uh, had the interesting I, I believe that I met her in person, I think, just before I moved to Spain and I thought that, you know, like, I was in a place where I wanted to, like, talk and, and we did have some interesting conversation.
(0:25:21) speaker_1: But after that meetup, I didn’t speak to her again for like (laughs) four or five years.
(0:25:27) speaker_1: So, it wasn’t great, but that’s when she had said that and there was something about, like, um…
(0:25:34) speaker_1: I just felt like- Or she admitted to saying that she had been a shit mom, but I think the, the most striking thing for me was that she said that she hadn’t sought out therapy.
(0:25:45) speaker_1: And so, in that sense, or that can explain it, she wanted to speak to me about a lot of things.
(0:25:53) speaker_1: Like, maybe in some ways I’m the only one that “knows” and that she can talk to about some of her struggles, including issues with my adoptive father.
(0:26:04) speaker_1: And so, I made it very clear that I wasn’t the person to talk to about these things and that-
(0:26:10) speaker_4: Mm-hmm.
(0:26:10) speaker_1: … if she wanted therapy, then that’s-
(0:26:12) speaker_4: Not something on her, but theirs- it was definitely a fear of, like, people knowing. Do you know what I mean?
(0:26:17) speaker_4: And, and that will be- that will take them to their deathbeds, like, being afraid of people knowing and us giving them the grace of not telling anyone, besides obviously this podcast, which lost me the Facebook friendship of my adopted brother (laughs).
(0:26:31) speaker_4: And, and-
(0:26:32) speaker_1: Oh, it did?
(0:26:33) speaker_4: I think it did create a medium shit storm, because my sister posted it on my Facebook page. We used Facebook at the time.
(0:26:41) speaker_4: On my Facebook page, and, uh, I think people from my hometown had listened to it and he was, or is, like, a council person, I think, in our town.
(0:26:53) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:26:53) speaker_4: And my parents obviously were church-going people, et cetera. So, she (sighs)…
(0:27:00) speaker_4: My adoptive mother wanted to, in that same conversation, put the blame on the, the abuse of my sister, um, on other issues related to my adoptive father.
(0:27:13) speaker_4: But again, I’m not there for it and I, I don’t really have a case of ever wanting to see him again or have, like, and missing him or something.
(0:27:23) speaker_0: And she was, she was abused by your brother, right?
(0:27:26) speaker_1: No, my father. My adoptive father.
(0:27:28) speaker_0: Oh, your father. Okay. Oh, okay.
(0:27:31) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:27:32) speaker_0: Okay, so…
(0:27:33) speaker_1: And then that was something that I had found out later and went to, and it was I who uncovered and discovered it, which was not a, a good place for me or in my, my memory.
(0:27:45) speaker_1: Uh, I was 26 when I figured it out. And actually, that needs to be its own, like, zine actually, how I first-
(0:27:52) speaker_4: (laughs) Doubt and… I had… It was quite a, a difficult time for me.
(0:27:59) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:27:59) speaker_4: But worse for my sister, obviously, so…
(0:28:02) speaker_1: But that was s-
(0:28:03) speaker_4: That was a-
(0:28:03) speaker_1: It was another kind of like chapter in the uns- like, the unraveling of my…
(0:28:09) speaker_4: Mm-hmm.
(0:28:09) speaker_1: My family connection, right?
(0:28:11) speaker_1: Like, at that time, I had already lived in California and I decided to then completely end my relationship with them in all capacity, even the once a year visit capacity.
(0:28:22) speaker_1: And, and so it was a really… From then on, it was a very clean cut, but I never- I mean, I haven’t…
(0:28:29) speaker_1: I have only seen her once since then, and that was at 26, and I hadn’t seen or heard from my brother or my adoptive father since then either, so…
(0:28:42) speaker_0: What, what was it like, um, coming on the podcast for you? And, and it sounds like that, you know, it…
(0:28:51) speaker_0: One of the things that I think people fear about coming on a podcast is people in their lives hearing it for the first time. And whereas-
(0:29:01) speaker_4: Hmm.
(0:29:01) speaker_0: … it’s freeing as well.
(0:29:04) speaker_4: Yeah.
(0:29:04) speaker_0: But also, there can be some fallout, and it sounds like in your family, there were some things that happened.
(0:29:11) speaker_1: Yeah, but I think it’s- You- Whatever fallout it is, it is people not wanting to accept the truth. I mean, my brother knows everything that happened.
(0:29:22) speaker_1: He lived with that. I mean, he was there, right? But a- as you know, most middle class, middle America families don’t wanna…
(0:29:30) speaker_1: We were raised to not talk about things out in the open, you know? And even, I think there’s a lot of fear.
(0:29:36) speaker_1: When my sister and I divorced or broke up with our family officially, we wrote letters.
(0:29:40) speaker_1: But, you know, we didn’t- We never really ever talked about these things out in the open face-to-face.
(0:29:45) speaker_1: And, and I think that the podcast, in itself, is freeing in that way maybe, for people who haven’t confronted or haven’t been able to talk about it.
(0:29:55) speaker_1: I’m- Maybe I’m a bit lucky.
(0:29:56) speaker_1: When I, you know, moved to San Francisco and started studying creative writing, oh, I had many opportunities to write and talk about it.
(0:30:04) speaker_1: I think people got really tired of hearing about my abuse (laughs), honestly.
(0:30:08) speaker_1: So, for me it wasn’t, like, a new thing to talk about or explain, and maybe that’s when I joke about, like now.
(0:30:14) speaker_1: Like, I don’t really give that person, yeah, a place in the living room anymore, because it was a bit, uh, of- maybe a bit too much of, of something that I, I gave, um, precedence or gave attention to.
(0:30:28) speaker_1: So-I don’t know.
(0:30:29) speaker_1: I think, um, it’s a- it’s a bit sad that maybe he doesn’t want to or have a place in his mind or heart to ever talk to me again about it.
(0:30:40) speaker_1: But I do think that maybe it, mm, created a little bit of space for my parents to maybe not be so anonymous with…
(0:30:48) speaker_1: and to be- to go so quietly into the night about the kind of people that they were and really, really are.
(0:30:58) speaker_1: Um, but we have chosen, both of us, to kind of let them live their lives in peace so that we can live our lives in peace as well, you know?
(0:31:06) speaker_1: Like, they- they sort of, they leave us alone and we don’t stir things up too much for them, I guess, is sort of our unspoken thing. So…
(0:31:16) speaker_0: And you and your sister, your- that you were adopted with, y- y- you’re sort of, you- you two have become- had become somewhat estranged from the rest of your family?
(0:31:26) speaker_0:
(0:31:26) speaker_1: Um, well, we made a conscious decision. Like, we both had, in our early 20s, gone our separate ways and maybe even a bit estranged from each other.
(0:31:37) speaker_1: And then over time, things like, w- we, things got, yeah, stronger.
(0:31:42) speaker_1: Especially but when we wrote our letters (laughs), uh, leaving our family at saying that we never wanted to see them again, we’re definitely not family from here on out and you’re talking disgusting people and the whole thing.
(0:31:55) speaker_1: And we… But after that, it was just us, you know? And so… And like I said, that was 15 years ago.
(0:32:04) speaker_1: So the whole it was, it’s just us kind of mentality have been through many boyfriends on my end and a husband and another relationship on her end.
(0:32:15) speaker_1: So she, um, and I, even though we obviously live very far away, she lives in Pennsylvania, still are very united and I feel really, really grateful for her, to be honest.
(0:32:27) speaker_1: And after going through a really tough time here after quarantine, she brought me over for Christmas a few years ago.
(0:32:32) speaker_1: She’s bringing all of us over for Christmas this year to see her.
(0:32:37) speaker_1: They came out here after Ruby was born and, um, yeah, I think it’s- it’s important and really vital for me. I don’t think I could exist just on my own.
(0:32:47) speaker_1: I- I really need her and I think she really needs me as well. So… And for- for both of us, specifically for her, it has been just me.
(0:32:58) speaker_1: I have like our Korean sister as well, which she doesn’t have a relationship with.
(0:33:03) speaker_1: So, I think, yeah, it’s very important for us to be together and to have our- have each other. Mm-hmm.
(0:33:13) speaker_0: Alicia, um, he- it’s so…
(0:33:15) speaker_0: With the trauma and all the things you’ve gone through in life and you always- you struck me as just being a very joyful person, even though when I met you and even just talking, I don’t know, is that…
(0:33:31) speaker_0: Where does that come from?
(0:33:32) speaker_1: I don’t know.
(0:33:35) speaker_0: Like an adventure life, seeker of experiences, someone who, you know, um…
(0:33:42) speaker_0: This is my impression of you, that, um, really like loves and feels deeply and cares as- cares for people in your life.
(0:33:54) speaker_0: And it just seems, you know, from talking to you, I just think that wouldn’t you just be this dark person, but you have a lot of joy it seems like in your life.
(0:34:07) speaker_0:
(0:34:07) speaker_1: Thank you for saying that. Thank you. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I also wonder sometimes. (laughs) It’s not all…
(0:34:15) speaker_1: And the other thing that’s funny is, it’s definitely not like fake because I also sometimes wonder that about myself too.
(0:34:23) speaker_1: It’s not- I definitely have my moments like where I’ve- I’ve been depressed and I’ve had anxiety, but I think my modus operandi is this, is like f- like you say, deep feeling, full of love, positive.
(0:34:39) speaker_1: But like, I- I don’t know. The- the dark places maybe come from the things that are lacking. In Spanish we say the faltas.
(0:34:48) speaker_1: The faltas from like from maybe how I was raised, what I believe about myself, maybe, uh, issues of self esteem or imposter syndrome.
(0:34:59) speaker_1: Those- those things, they creep up, but I feel… When I was younger I used to say like, “The worst has happened.
(0:35:07) speaker_1: ” (laughs) The worst has happened and the rest is like, to, yeah, to, an adventure to discover.
(0:35:13) speaker_1: I used to call everything an adventure and I think I’m at that place in my life where I’m like a bit reflective about how well I used or didn’t use my 20s.
(0:35:22) speaker_1: But I- I’ve had a really great adventure thus far, and so I’m- I’m always really surprised, uh, about where life has taken me. You know what I mean?
(0:35:32) speaker_1: Like, I- I’m really lucky.
(0:35:34) speaker_1: I’ve had a lot of really beautiful, uh, friendships and relationships with people that have supported me and loved me and taught me how to love and- and to, yeah, and about the world.
(0:35:46) speaker_1: Because I really felt like at 19, I entered the world in- incredibly sheltered, just without much knowledge of anything, without much belief in myself, but I was, uh, very brave kind of in a there’s no going back or in a very naive way.
(0:36:04) speaker_1: (laughs) I was very brave.
(0:36:06) speaker_1: I had the courage of naivety and- and youth and I’m really grateful for that in a lot of ways because there really was no going back when I bought that plane ticket to California, that one way ticket.
(0:36:17) speaker_1: So, I feel really…
(0:36:20) speaker_0: Mm.
(0:36:20) speaker_1: … grateful for her, whoever that was, that version of me that kind of pushed me forward ’cause I- I don’t think as a- as young, um……
(0:36:31) speaker_1: a Korean adoptee, Alisha, on the farm, I could have ever imagined this life for myself and, and I really think that living in Korea was such an important step and, and part of my life.
(0:36:43) speaker_1: Like, there really is a before and after, you know?
(0:36:46) speaker_1: Like, I, I don’t think I could be nearly as at peace with myself and, and who I am where my identity isn’t really something that I ever really worry about or think about it.
(0:36:57) speaker_1: It’s secure now after having spent that time. Uh, maybe other Korean adoptees who’ve kind of fulfilled that bit of their life would feel the same.
(0:37:07) speaker_0: ‘Cause I, (laughs) I remember when I met you, um, I had just gotten to Korea to start my year there and I was just so in awe of you because here was this like, you seem very cosmopolitan, you know, you were a Seoulite.
(0:37:21) speaker_0: (bell dinging) Had been in Korea for a few years at that point, (bell dinging) um, and then you-
(0:37:27) speaker_1: I’d been five at that point, yeah.
(0:37:29) speaker_0: And that you-
(0:37:30) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:37:30) speaker_0: I mean, you could… You joked to some granny on the street in Korean and you… ‘Cause you know, you spoke some Korean.
(0:37:37) speaker_1: (laughs).
(0:37:37) speaker_0: You seemed really comfortable with your surroundings.
(0:37:41) speaker_1: Yeah, I know. (laughs)
(0:37:41) speaker_0: And I was just really in awe of… You knew where to get the, um, the authentic bread.
(0:37:46) speaker_1: Absolutely. (laughs)
(0:37:46) speaker_0: Like European bread. (laughs)
(0:37:49) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:37:51) speaker_0: And I just-
(0:37:52) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:37:52) speaker_0: I just remember just thinking, “Wow, you’re just, you know…
(0:37:56) speaker_0: ” Um, th- you know, hoping that maybe one day I would feel as good in my skin in Korea as you appeared to be at that time. I don’t-
(0:38:05) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:38:06) speaker_0: But, um, I’m wondering that… So for, for example, with your adoptive family story, really some dark things and-
(0:38:17) speaker_1: Yeah, some really horrible things.
(0:38:18) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:38:19) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:38:19) speaker_0: I mean, let’s, let’s not sugarcoat it and, um, and then for a lot of adoptees we, we have, we have this redemptive thing, right?
(0:38:26) speaker_0: We wanna go back to Korea and to reclaim something that we feel was taken from us, right?
(0:38:32) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:38:33) speaker_0: And then, and then going to Korea and, you know, with your first family, learning that it w- like life was really hard and for the, your, um, siblings that, that remained in Korea, that, that they told you that life was very hard.
(0:38:52) speaker_0: And, and somehow it doesn’t fit because you want to go back to Korea and say, “My life would’ve been better if you…”
(0:38:59) speaker_1: Yep. Yeah.
(0:39:00) speaker_0: And then you’re faced with this reality of that everyone there is saying, is looking at you like somehow you escaped a really hard life.
(0:39:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:39:10) speaker_0: How did you, how did you make s- how did you come to terms with that?
(0:39:14) speaker_1: Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know if I, I, I don’t… I was gonna say I don’t know if I have, but you know what?
(0:39:19) speaker_1: I think I had to immediately come to terms with it. Like, the very first visit, it became quite clear that we were the lucky ones, right?
(0:39:29) speaker_1: And in fact, in that last interview that I’m telling you about that I did with my mother…
(0:39:34) speaker_1: Interview is a funny way to put it because I did record and then somehow ended up losing what I recorded, (laughs) which is stupid but I have it in my mind.
(0:39:40) speaker_1: Um, but I’m, there was a part where sh- my Korean sister was recounting to me again, and it had been a couple times I’d heard it but in a beautifully translated way about what had happened to her after my sister and I went to the orphanage.
(0:39:56) speaker_1: And at that time she would’ve been, I would say 13 or 14, and she was taken to be a cleaning girl in a medium wealthy family’s home and was, mm, treated so poorly and beaten so badly that she ended up in the hospital and she has this s- big white bump of a scar in the top kind of middle of her head.
(0:40:15) speaker_1:
(0:40:16) speaker_0: Ah.
(0:40:16) speaker_1: And at that point she, you know, had been, I think she was hit with, um, like, I don’t know, like a vase or something and she had been bleeding and was sent to the hospital and at that point was brought back to live with our biological mother.
(0:40:30) speaker_1: And when she tells it, her whole face is just full of tears and anguish and she’s living that reality of the shame and the loneliness of a 13-year-old probably living, sleeping on the floor, working for everyone completely without family, completely without protection, and how horrible it felt to be, to be treated like that.
(0:40:52) speaker_1: And there was no…
(0:40:54) speaker_1: At, at that moment, my, my Korean mother turns to me and hits me on the, the side, the side as Korean mothers do, it’s not angry but the hitting, getting hit on the arms and the shoulder and being told, “Look, look what she went through.
(0:41:08) speaker_1: You were so lucky.” And that’s how my friend translated it. “Look, look what she went through. You’re so lucky.” And (sighs) it was really hard.
(0:41:18) speaker_1: It was really hard to accept that but I can’t say anything. You know? Like I, if that’s what she believes, that…
(0:41:24) speaker_1: And I can’t negate my, my sister’s suffering and that was only the beginning for her.
(0:41:29) speaker_1: You know, she worked in a garment factory and slept on the floor next to the sewing machine for the next 10 years of her life, right?
(0:41:37) speaker_1: So I, I feel that if that’s…
(0:41:39) speaker_1: if it helps them to think that all of this suffering and all of the suffering they can feel relieved that Erica and I survived and are, in our way, then I, I’ll let her think that.
(0:41:51) speaker_1: But my Korean sister knows better because we were able to explain ourselves to each other a few times prior to that.
(0:41:57) speaker_1: But my, my friend who was translating turned and said to her like, “You, you… That’s not a very nice thing to say. You don’t know.
(0:42:03) speaker_1: ” But she didn’t really go beyond that and I told her, “No need to say anything else.
(0:42:08) speaker_1: ” But what my sister had experienced in that suffering, and I f- and I saw it in her face, it must have been so horrible, but I also felt that for probably a good 10 years of my life, that feeling that, of anguish.
(0:42:21) speaker_1: And I’m… I don’t know.
(0:42:22) speaker_1: I, I think that in the end I have to rest easy w- with knowing that what I have and what I received in some kind of strange karmic payment for-…
(0:42:35) speaker_1: the suffering that it seems like all of my family was kind of (laughs) like, weirdly doomed to, that at least I got opportunity, you know?
(0:42:43) speaker_1: W- what Erika and I got are, is opportunity.
(0:42:46) speaker_1: And my Korean sister made that opportunity for herself through hard work, through, you know, marrying somebody who was loving and kind and building a family, and just, and hard work.
(0:42:58) speaker_1: But my Korean brother is the example of taking the same route as my probably biological parents both did, which was blame, suffering, um, and also living in kind of a lonely isolation with one’s pain and suffering.
(0:43:15) speaker_1: And I haven’t spoken to him in a really long time-
(0:43:18) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:43:18) speaker_1: … to be honest. And s- it’s basically since then, since that six years ago is maybe the last time I saw him.
(0:43:24) speaker_1: And kind of up until the end, I think he’s always s- m- I wouldn’t say he’s jealous of me, ’cause that’s not fair, but I think that he definitely sees me as being quite selfish and, you know, I did loan him money or give him money and, and try to help him with his life in some way here and there, but, you know, he’s eight years older than me, he’s an adult as well, and his bad habits or the way he’s, he’s living his life, and the things that he…
(0:43:50) speaker_1: that were instilled in him that he didn’t get or that he did receive at a really young age are part of him now. Do you know what I mean?
(0:44:00) speaker_1: Uh, uh, and maybe he’s, he’s not listening to Louise Hay videos (laughs) and meditating and doing yoga every day to try desperately to change that, and maybe…
(0:44:08) speaker_1: and th- there’s where we differ, and I think that comes from opportunity and influence, and the people that I’ve met who have helped change me as well in my life, so.
(0:44:17) speaker_1:
(0:44:22) speaker_0: Yeah, it is really hard, uh, to come to terms with the fact that when we go back to Korea, that for, for a lot of us, we do come back as a privileged person, having-
(0:44:37) speaker_1: For sure.
(0:44:38) speaker_0: … just being raised in first-world countries, uh, having opportunities, but no less pain. You know what I mean? So-
(0:44:48) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:44:49) speaker_0: It, it, it can seem like to Koreans in Korea that we have so much more and we should just shut up, like, and stop complaining and whining.
(0:44:59) speaker_1: I think so. Um-
(0:44:59) speaker_0: We can make money just by speaking our language, you know? (laughs) By-
(0:45:03) speaker_1: Exactly. And I did, and that was a very obvious thing, right, for e- obvious reason for me to just, like, not have anything to complain about, I think.
(0:45:12) speaker_1: And, you know, and we know that too, that the Korean, you know, like, e- it was always very funny for me to look around and think, “Well, what, where were you?
(0:45:20) speaker_1: What were your parents doing?
(0:45:21) speaker_1: What were you eating, or what were you wearing when we were all, you know, living as orphans and our parents were starving to death?” Like, where was everybody?
(0:45:29) speaker_1: Because when I lived in Korea, all of those people…
(0:45:32) speaker_1: I don’t know if the same happened for you, where I would kind of look at former bosses or coworkers or people around me, thinking that, “What were they doing in 1985 when my family was, you know, going through poverty and we were given up for adoption so we wouldn’t starve to death?
(0:45:46) speaker_1: What, what was everybody else doing?” Because they were in Korea at that time.
(0:45:50) speaker_1: And I think that this, there’s this collective, “Just don’t talk about it. We’re all fine now. Look what, how we’re dressed,” right?
(0:45:57) speaker_1: And so, we’re, we, we fucked that up as adoptees. We impede that, or kind of like collective forgetting in a lot of ways. And I think us, we should just…
(0:46:09) speaker_1: This idea that we should just, like, shut up and be happy that we’re coming back with, you know, opportunities and wealth or privileged childhoods, et cetera, is part of that too, because everybody else also lived something difficult and rough, but we’re not…
(0:46:23) speaker_1: As a culture maybe, we’ve decided to just put that behind us. And so-
(0:46:29) speaker_0: Like it’s, like adoptees who come back we’re, we’re upsetting the unspoken-
(0:46:34) speaker_1: Exactly.
(0:46:34) speaker_0: … uh, agreement, right?
(0:46:37) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:46:38) speaker_0: To like, let’s just move forward and not look back.
(0:46:42) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:46:42) speaker_0: And, and adoptees are like, “But wait. This happened, and this happened.”
(0:46:47) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:46:47) speaker_0: “And um, we’re from here and got sent out because of… you couldn’t take care of us and…
(0:46:54) speaker_0: ” Um, so given your family backgrounds and your experiences did you ever feel-
(0:47:00) speaker_1: Yes.
(0:47:00) speaker_0: … like unsure if you could raise somebody and have a healthy, happy family? And-
(0:47:09) speaker_1: Girl, (laughs) girl, you, you know these are things I think, I think about, right? Like there’s…
(0:47:15) speaker_1: I’m sure there are all kinds of moms out there, and moms…
(0:47:18) speaker_1: I, I don’t think moms who are 100% of the time think that they’re the best mom ever really exist.
(0:47:25) speaker_1: But I definitely, you know, feel that there, there are moments… I mean, I definitely have, you know… well anyway.
(0:47:32) speaker_1: My birth, life for me cannot go d- go around easily. So like my birth itselfs, I had the, I had PTSD after, right? So, or the birth itself.
(0:47:41) speaker_1: So like, I definitely had like a little touch of postpartum. I don’t know if you’d have a little touch.
(0:47:45) speaker_1: But I felt a little bit not myself for the first few months after and it crossed my mind like, (gasps) “It’s the curse!” (laughs) maybe, you know.
(0:47:53) speaker_1: But no, six months ******* and I did some therapy. I, I had postpartum, yeah. Or I mean, it was undiagnosed, but I, I was diagnosed with PTSD.
(0:48:04) speaker_1: So I just, my partner and I, we both say that around six months is kind of when I started being myself again.
(0:48:11) speaker_1: But I told myself right o- like I knew that something was off and I needed to go to therapy because I said this is not one of these traumas that I’m gonna let linger around with me forever.
(0:48:22) speaker_1: I, I know what to do now because I’ve lived through traumas. I’m gonna deal with it right now.
(0:48:28) speaker_1: And honestly going like here in Spain, I’ll give it to their credit that if you have an issue you go and it’s part of the government healthcare, I was able to talk to someone several times, I was really heard, I was met with a lot of empathy and kindness….
(0:48:42) speaker_1: and I decided to not hush up and to talk to the people around me about it as much as I could in the beginning.
(0:48:49) speaker_1: And it helped me a lot, and I feel like I was able to put that behind me and move on. So I’m not bringing any new traumas.
(0:48:56) speaker_1: And I do definitely wonder, how am I gonna explain to Ruby as she gets older who I am?
(0:49:01) speaker_1: (laughs) But I think she’s seeing who I am every day, and I’m gonna have to figure out some interesting, insightful, and creative way to explain to her why she doesn’t have grandparents.
(0:49:12) speaker_1: She only has a nonna and a nono in Italy, so she doesn’t have grandparents and, (sighs) and these things.
(0:49:19) speaker_1: And I do obviously feel like there are a lot more things in my head, like what I briefly brought up about, um, what, what happened to me at her age, and you know, what it’s like to have all these kind of like fears and anxieties around like, for example, abuse, or what it is to raise your voice, or what happens when you lose your patience, right?
(0:49:40) speaker_1: But I think that I know that I’ll, I’m only me, you know? And my…
(0:49:43) speaker_1: I have a really loving and amazing partner who’s a wonderful dad, who is really good at reminding both of us that we’re just ourselves, you know?
(0:49:52) speaker_1: And if ourselves start with a base of love and joy, and I think that’s part of why we also just wanna have one child, (laughs) but joy, then that’s it.
(0:50:01) speaker_1: Then there’s, there’s never a chance that I’ll be like my adoptive parents, because we’re just coming to her as ourselves.
(0:50:09) speaker_1: We’re not pretending that we know everything. We grew up when, where parents were, like, huge authorities, and it’s just this way because it’s this way.
(0:50:17) speaker_1: And you know, we’re…
(0:50:18) speaker_1: And we live in Spain where maybe children are just like really loved and valued and seen, and also like making life easy for parents is kind of part of the whole thing here.
(0:50:29) speaker_1: Like, our health- our, mm, healthcare is free and our, um, uh, daycare starts in September, which is also free, uh, at age two, right? So-
(0:50:40) speaker_0: Mm. Wow.
(0:50:40) speaker_1: … I feel like I ha- we- I have… I’m in a good place for this all to be happening.
(0:50:45) speaker_1: I have the support in my partner and the support in our, in this society and culture here for it to go well, you know? But, I don’t think that…
(0:50:55) speaker_1: I don’t know. I think that there are a lot of factors in, at play that could make it go badly, (laughs) and I’m not allowing myself to get into those.
(0:51:03) speaker_1: You know, like, isolated, on the phone with five children, you know, like hating my life.
(0:51:08) speaker_1: That, those aren’t the context in which I wanna have raised this person. And-
(0:51:13) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:51:13) speaker_1: … I don’t think, I won’t allow myself to have that, so.
(0:51:16) speaker_0: Yeah, I think that’s an important takeaway is you’ve really made a conscious decision that you’re not your trauma, uh-
(0:51:24) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:51:25) speaker_0: … and that y- you don’t want your daughter to be your trauma, or your, your relationship to be that, to be, to be defined by that, or that-
(0:51:33) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:51:33) speaker_0: … to have her, to be 70 years old and to have this be an, your trauma be part of your relationship with her.
(0:51:42) speaker_1: Yeah, or my legacy to her, or-
(0:51:44) speaker_0: Yeah, your legacy.
(0:51:44) speaker_1: … given the-
(0:51:45) speaker_0: Right.
(0:51:46) speaker_1: … way in which I identify myself to her. No, no, and, and also, pfft, yeah, no.
(0:51:51) speaker_1: My, my siblings will talk about the burden that my mother was on them, my birth mother was on them while they were working in the sweatshops, how she would always come and need their help and need their money to go to the doctor, and sh- she just…
(0:52:05) speaker_1: I can see that like she had never really fixed or solved anything in herself before having kids, and it’s not her fault.
(0:52:12) speaker_1: Uh, her having children, like you say, wasn’t a conscious choice, and I’m lucky enough that I lived in an America where I could have an abortion if I wasn’t ready to have a child, and at this point in my life, I am, and I chose this person to be raised by this version of me now.
(0:52:29) speaker_1: And definitely like 24-year-old me would not have been a great mom, but I’m, I’m confident that I, I’m ready or I wouldn’t have done it, and so, so far-
(0:52:43) speaker_0: Oh, good.
(0:52:43) speaker_1: … so good. (laughs)
(0:52:44) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:52:44) speaker_1: So far so good, she’s still alive and she’s amazing. (laughs)
(0:52:47) speaker_0: (laughs) I know, I like-
(0:52:49) speaker_1: And she’s trilingual, and she-
(0:52:50) speaker_0: Trilingual.
(0:52:50) speaker_1: Yeah, or quadri- quadrilingual, actually.
(0:52:53) speaker_1: Well, she’s already got four sh- I mean, she’s got Italian, Spanish, and English at home, and then we read some Korean things, and we have like a little Korean like bus that plays songs, like electronic toy, and I swear to God, now every time we go past a Chinese business or store, ’cause in Barcelona most Asians are Chinese, she will shout, “Annyeong” at them and like by way of strange like reverse racism where she thinks all Asians say annyeong, so.
(0:53:18) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:53:18) speaker_0: (laughs)
(0:53:19) speaker_1: Or, and she often r- she loves the words (Korean) because of a book that we read.
(0:53:28) speaker_0: Aw.
(0:53:28) speaker_1: So she’s got some words, and, and we, I taught her some basic normal words like it hurts, but ayya, ayya, like in Korean, so those are like the basis for how she knows certain words.
(0:53:41) speaker_1: She only knows them in Korean, for example, so-
(0:53:43) speaker_0: Does she-
(0:53:43) speaker_1: … that’s kind of-
(0:53:44) speaker_0: Does she call you oma?
(0:53:47) speaker_1: No, we go, I go “Mama,” because-
(0:53:49) speaker_0: Mama. Okay.
(0:53:50) speaker_1: I kind of, I preferred that, but she knows what oma is, and but she calls my sister in, in America imo.
(0:53:55) speaker_1: She, I asked her what she wanted to be called and she’s gone with imo.
(0:53:59) speaker_0: Ah.
(0:54:00) speaker_1: So at least she has that in her life. Yeah, unless-
(0:54:04) speaker_0: Were there-
(0:54:05) speaker_1: I don’t know. I know some people wanna be called oma. For me, no. I, the word is a little bit painful for me, I think, actually.
(0:54:11) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:54:11) speaker_1: So, I prefer Mama, yeah.
(0:54:14) speaker_0: Yeah. So why Spain a- after what, five years in Korea?
(0:54:20) speaker_1: Seven years in Korea, and now-
(0:54:23) speaker_0: Five in here, wow.
(0:54:23) speaker_1: … six years in Spain.
(0:54:26) speaker_0: Why Spain? And then-
(0:54:29) speaker_1: Great question.
(0:54:29) speaker_0: … was it almost, was it almost easier going to a third country than to going back to America?
(0:54:36) speaker_1: Oof, no, these are expat questions. These aren’t really adoptee questions anymore.
(0:54:40) speaker_0: (laughs)
(0:54:42) speaker_1: I, I don’t know. Well, I came to Spain ’cause I was dating a Catalan at the time, and I think, like when you said about-…
(0:54:49) speaker_1: like, the vibe I was in in Seoul. I could have stayed in Seoul.
(0:54:52) speaker_1: And actually now, sometimes I think about maybe moving back to Seoul, so maybe the next time we have this interview I’ll be in Seoul again. (laughs)
(0:54:59) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:54:59) speaker_1: It’s just that the… Like, it’s too good.
(0:55:02) speaker_1: You know, it’s too easy here in terms of, like, you know, the health insurance and the social programs and, and how, the way that Spain takes care of people.
(0:55:11) speaker_1:
(0:55:11) speaker_5: Mm-hmm.
(0:55:11) speaker_1: It’s, it’s quite nice.
(0:55:13) speaker_1: I think that’s what’s kept me here, but I came with, um, the, uh, person that I was dating at the time who needed to come back for family reasons and we just weren’t at a place that h- I was ready to break up, but we weren’t really that, that serious.
(0:55:27) speaker_1: So I came and I stayed and we were together for another almost two years after I moved here and that relationship didn’t work out, but I still had some time in my visa and I thought, “Well, I’ll just stay and see what happens.
(0:55:38) speaker_1: ” Then the pandemic happened and then my life took me for a little bit of a low, and then when I came back up again, I met my current partner, Marco, uh, his son, and we got pregnant accidentally, and here I am.
(0:55:53) speaker_1: (laughs) So, uh, uh, he doesn’t like when I say accidentally, but we got pregnant and here we are.
(0:55:59) speaker_1: And, um, it was easier I think to go to S- maybe here than America, because I talked to my friends who have gone from Korea back to America or Korea back to Ireland, and they say, like, “You know, nobody understands, oh, people who’ve gone back,” and then we joke about being in, like, a self-help group of people who’ve, um, had to come out of all the luxuries of living abroad as an expat, and, and nobody understands us and everybody else is in, like, a different financial place, and, um, h- and I don’t know.
(0:56:30) speaker_1: I feel like, yeah, maybe I skipped that staying here. My friends who live in America definitely had different fates than me.
(0:56:36) speaker_1: But I feel lucky I guess in some ways, although most of my friends, including partner here, we don’t, aren’t really expats.
(0:56:42) speaker_1: I think we’re all just immigrants, which is kind of a, a different, a funny distinction.
(0:56:47) speaker_1: The people that maybe who are expats, expats here, have come with outside money and those of us who just, like, kind of jump into the Spanish way of life and are used to the- getting used to the low salaries and, and the kind of hard style of life here, I think we just, we don’t really, we’re not living in privilege.
(0:57:07) speaker_1: (laughs) But it’s still quite, mm, it’s a good place to live. I’m happy here. I think I’ll stick it out for at least another five years.
(0:57:14) speaker_1: You might see me in Seoul again-
(0:57:16) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:57:16) speaker_1: … when I was 70 years old.
(0:57:17) speaker_0: Maybe it will… I’ll be retired there.
(0:57:20) speaker_1: (gasps) Is that something you’re thinking about?
(0:57:22) speaker_0: (laughs) That is something I’m thinking about. Yeah.
(0:57:25) speaker_1: Ooh. Did y- I wanted to ask you-
(0:57:27) speaker_0: ‘Cause I-
(0:57:28) speaker_1: Oh, go ahead.
(0:57:28) speaker_0: Uh, yeah, because when I came back, I was only there a year, right? I, and I couldn’t take it for much longer. I really, I even moved up my-
(0:57:35) speaker_1: Oh, lady.
(0:57:35) speaker_0: … I even moved up my flight, because-
(0:57:37) speaker_1: Wow. Oh, yeah?
(0:57:39) speaker_0: … I had such a, like, love/hate relationship-
(0:57:44) speaker_1: Like, heartbreak.
(0:57:44) speaker_0: … with Korea.
(0:57:45) speaker_1: Oh, no. I’m sorry.
(0:57:47) speaker_0: But, um, I also think that, I hear this a lot, that people say the second year is easier, because you’re-
(0:57:53) speaker_1: Yeah, you only have to slug through it. It’s so… I mean, I was pretty depressed and I had a rough time the first year for sure.
(0:57:59) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:57:59) speaker_1: But then-
(0:58:00) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:58:00) speaker_1: … you have to… Mm.
(0:58:01) speaker_0: You can build on something in the second year and you have more language capacity and you have more-
(0:58:07) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:58:07) speaker_0: … uh, cultural knowledge. I think the first year was so…
(0:58:11) speaker_0: Because also I just dived in, like, I really hadn’t spent much time in Korea and then, like, I decided I was gonna move there, and as a, you know, middle-aged person, woman, and, you know, it was just, it was a lot to take in, like, all of the cultural differences.
(0:58:28) speaker_0:
(0:58:29) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:58:29) speaker_0: Um, and then the adoptee stuff on top of that, and, um, but-
(0:58:35) speaker_1: I’m sorry. Yeah.
(0:58:36) speaker_0: Even moving back to the States, I-
(0:58:39) speaker_1: Mm.
(0:58:39) speaker_0: There was, like, a big culture shock and there was a lot of things that I missed about Korea, like, moving back to the States-
(0:58:46) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:58:46) speaker_0: …
(0:58:46) speaker_0: moving back, I ended up back in Minnesota, and very white, and just things that I took for granted in Seoul, like just that comfort level of being surrounded by other people who look like you and being, that sort of comfort.
(0:59:01) speaker_0:
(0:59:01) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:59:02) speaker_0: And then being thrown back to the life that I had come from-
(0:59:07) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:59:07) speaker_0: … and just, like, realizing, “Oh, this doesn’t feel good.” And-
(0:59:11) speaker_1: How cool that it’s not normal anymore, what was always so normal.
(0:59:14) speaker_0: Yeah, like, the norm- the n- it’s a new normative, and like-
(0:59:18) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:59:18) speaker_0: … the thing that I, like, being back, like, and I realize, like, I didn’t, it wasn’t easy to go back-
(0:59:25) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:59:25) speaker_0: … to my life in the States, because I realized, like, “Well, Korea changed me,” and-
(0:59:29) speaker_1: Yes, definitely. Definitely.
(0:59:32) speaker_0: So wondering if, like, actually going to another country would have even been-
(0:59:38) speaker_1: Yes. Yes. But it’s also, like, I’m kind of already imagining more-
(0:59:43) speaker_0: It’s-
(0:59:43) speaker_1: It’s, like, a slightly, like, 1980s racist over here, so it’s a bit, it’s kind of hard to be, uh, a racial minor- I mean, it’s h- it’s hard to be a racial minority I would say, but it’s also not.
(0:59:57) speaker_1: Like, I, I tell myself, I mean, “God, I love my nation so amazing.
(1:00:01) speaker_1: ” But I definitely am- it’s annoying after living in Asia for so long, kind of also having lived in California before that, to have gone through all of this, um, slow and painful, like, uh, I want generational, um, growth or, yeah, generational growth to get to a place where people aren’t so close-minded and, and racist, to then coming to a place that is.
(1:00:25) speaker_1: (laughs) It’s like, “Shuck, what happened? Why did I choose this?” Uh, but it’s okay.
(1:00:32) speaker_1: I get to be part of that generation in Spain that, mm, creates a second gen and that starts representation, and, uh, tries to, is an integration and tries to stop, uh, or, or educate and, uh, illuminate people’s minds here a little bit.
(1:00:50) speaker_1: That would be nice. So I’m lucky to live in a really diverse neighborhood anyway, so that’s cool.
(1:00:57) speaker_0: You do? Okay.
(1:00:58) speaker_1: I do, yeah.
(1:01:00) speaker_0: Well, A- Alicia, what, I mean… Has it occurred to you, is your, that you’re ra- that you’re raising a Spanish daughter?
(1:01:06) speaker_1: I know. It’s a little bit strange. And the crazy thing is that she… Well, she’s not technically Spanish, because in Spain sh- y- she’s American.
(1:01:15) speaker_1: She’s American and, um… Oh, she’s calling me now for baby. She’s American and Italian, because you’re not Spanish just ’cause you’re born here.
(1:01:24) speaker_1: Isn’t that funny?
(1:01:25) speaker_0: Oh. But culturally, she will be if you, if you end up staying, right?
(1:01:29) speaker_1: Culturally. Culturally, yes. And at school, they will teach her in Catalan. Oh, she’s calling you.
(1:01:34) speaker_0: Oh, Ruby, do you wanna be on the podcast?
(1:01:38) speaker_1: If I let her in here, it might be a lot of screams. Do, do you wanna be able to edit this part out? I don’t know if Marco wants me to.
(1:01:46) speaker_0: Yeah, it’s up to you. It’s up to you. We can have her in or not, or however. If you wanna… She wants to be with you.
(1:01:55) speaker_1: I’m gonna see.
(1:01:58) speaker_6: No. Speaker 4: Leave it. No! No!
(1:02:02) speaker_1: Okay, come on.
(1:02:03) speaker_6: No! No!
(1:02:03) speaker_1: Stay, stay.
(1:02:04) speaker_6: No!
(1:02:04) speaker_1: We’re gonna get you messed up if you cry, okay.
(1:02:10) speaker_6: No! Aah!
(1:02:10) speaker_1: Here, I got her. I’ve got her.
(1:02:12) speaker_6: Help me!
(1:02:12) speaker_1: And we’re gonna calm down.
(1:02:16) speaker_6: Aah!
(1:02:16) speaker_1: Are you okay?
(1:02:18) speaker_6: Aah!
(1:02:20) speaker_1: Shh. Shh. We’re still here. What’d she say?
(1:02:28) speaker_0: Was she… Did she just wake up?
(1:02:30) speaker_1: No, no, she’s ready for bed. So this is like-
(1:02:33) speaker_0: Oh.
(1:02:33) speaker_1: … we were, we were eating dinner when I remembered that I had this with you.
(1:02:36) speaker_0: Oh. (laughs)
(1:02:37) speaker_1: (laughs) And so, it’s eight…
(1:02:39) speaker_1: In the summers, I’m working at like a special camp, and I have one day off between my two-week rounds, and today was that day.
(1:02:45) speaker_0: Aw.
(1:02:45) speaker_1: And I taught some other classes. And so, my partner is, is kind of full-time daycare these days for her.
(1:02:52) speaker_1: And so, we were spending some time together this afternoon, and had dinner together.
(1:02:57) speaker_1: And then he was just, uh, spending time with her while I was with you, and now it’s time for bed. So, she’s, this is when she misses me the most, at bedtime.
(1:03:06) speaker_1:
(1:03:06) speaker_0: (laughs) Was, were there parts that triggered you about your pregnancy?
(1:03:10) speaker_0: You know, thinking back, like, like just kind of thinking about your own, you know, origins into the world?
(1:03:18) speaker_1: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I ha- I got to have some nice video calls with my birth mother.
(1:03:25) speaker_1: Probably just one while pregnant, and two after Ruby was born, with my bi- biological sister and my, um, birth mom.
(1:03:33) speaker_1: But it was really nice seeing their reaction to me being pregnant and having a baby.
(1:03:39) speaker_1: But I don’t know, I didn’t really connect it too much to my, to her experience.
(1:03:44) speaker_1: I did think about how amazing it was like that in all of the difficulty of her life at the time, that she was able to carry all of us, and, and, and do all of the things, like breastfeed us, and keep us alive in such a vulnerable way, in such a…
(1:03:59) speaker_1: Isn’t it amazing how they can, how… They kept all of us alive in such like horrible conditions.
(1:04:05) speaker_1: You know, it depends on each person’s conditions, but I think that I’d heard that ours were particularly bad, you know?
(1:04:12) speaker_1: So, I don’t know what happened in e- in each of those moments in those first years.
(1:04:17) speaker_1: But I know that I was fed and I was kept alive, and I’m really grateful for that.
(1:04:23) speaker_1: So, um, that she at least was healthy enough while she was pregnant, that all of us turned out as full-formed human beings (laughs).
(1:04:31) speaker_1: I think I feel really grateful for that, because these days a week, we make everything seem like it’s so difficult and challenging and fragile.
(1:04:39) speaker_1: And I think remembering that it h- that this woman that I know, uh, was able to do that for us, makes me think, “Okay, we’re pretty hardy people.
(1:04:47) speaker_1: Or we’re hardy babies and we’re hardy people.” (laughs) We can get through this. Made me kind of proud to be Korean, I guess, in some ways.
(1:04:57) speaker_1: Another one of those adoptee things that I didn’t know, that my biological sister, we just never talked about it, had had all C-sections.
(1:05:05) speaker_1: And so that like, I didn’t know until it happened to me, that I should’ve known a C-section was coming for me.
(1:05:12) speaker_1: And that would’ve been kind of nicer maybe to have had a better understanding.
(1:05:17) speaker_0: Oh, you had a C-section?
(1:05:20) speaker_1: Yeah.
(1:05:20) speaker_0: Is that a… Does that run in families?
(1:05:23) speaker_1: Yeah, apparently… Well, uh, for my Korean sister, yes. She said that that was something that had happened to her.
(1:05:30) speaker_1: And they, someone at our birthing book said that, “You should talk to your sister.” But I guess I just… I didn’t know.
(1:05:37) speaker_1: (laughs) That’s the way, it, it just didn’t come up. I should’ve asked her.
(1:05:40) speaker_1: I had a weird mental block, thinking like, you know, “I’m just gonna do it all naturally, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(1:05:46) speaker_1: ” But it was a pretty good indicator that I was gonna have one too.
(1:05:49) speaker_0: You know, uh, Alicia, you’re into cats, right?
(1:05:55) speaker_1: Very. (laughs)
(1:05:56) speaker_0: Yeah.
(1:05:56) speaker_1: Or just my cat. (laughs)
(1:05:58) speaker_0: (laughs) That’s what I thought. So… And you know that adage about having nine lives? I feel like…
(1:06:04) speaker_0: Do you sometimes feel like you’re like a cat and you’ve had nine lives?
(1:06:08) speaker_1: Uh, yeah, I guess so. Does it seem like I’ve had nine lives? (laughs)
(1:06:13) speaker_0: You’ve had so many, yeah, different experiences and… Anyway, that’s… Maybe we’ll pick that up again.
(1:06:19) speaker_1: No, I like that, I like that you said that. Honestly, I feel sometimes that nobody knows me, I think, in some ways. Or that it’s hard to…
(1:06:28) speaker_1: It’s a little bit lonely, maybe sometimes to… And it… But also exciting, to think of some of the lives and experience I’ve lived.
(1:06:36) speaker_1: But lonely in the way that… It makes me sad too, that few people have carried over in my life to all of those lives.
(1:06:44) speaker_1: For example, even my Korean life, my, my sister Erica didn’t, and couldn’t really experience that with me.
(1:06:49) speaker_1: But she has experienced much of my other lives with me. But, you know, like, it, it can sometimes feel a bit lonely.
(1:06:57) speaker_1: But also, yeah, I feel really lucky and fortunate. I just hope it doesn’t mean I’m like a shape-shifter or something. (laughs) But I do feel……
(1:07:05) speaker_1: like I have lived many lives, yeah. Hmm. (instrumental music plays)
(1:07:20) speaker_0: Well, uh, you know, talking to Alicia, one of the things that we’re- when you were talk- when we were talking about Ruby is, um, we were talking about, like, you, you wa- you don’t wanna carry the traumas with you and have that be Ruby’s burden, and um, thing to, you know, have to go to therapy about, and her mom, and everything.
(1:07:39) speaker_0: But, uh, you know, it’s kind of like in a way is it like even just your f- like family preservation, you and little Ruby and Marco staying together, like that- eh- that’s work, right?
(1:07:56) speaker_0: It’s work, you know, migrant family, and also through language, culture, everything, but you’re- but the- it, you know, it’s the will to stay together.
(1:08:07) speaker_0: Is that like, um, your own kind of justice or, um, you know-
(1:08:16) speaker_1: That- just the actual like, um, organizational bits of us being a family are the things that are hard so that everything else can be easy, you know?
(1:08:25) speaker_1: Like the, you know, the emotional parts of a family and just the, the loving and the being here and the kind of understanding each other on a basic level is what’s easy and then maybe the rest they’ll get there.
(1:08:40) speaker_1:
(1:08:40) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. I heard this st- do you ever feel jealousy towards your daughter like she’s getting…
(1:08:46) speaker_1: No, not at all.
(1:08:48) speaker_0: Okay.
(1:08:48) speaker_1: Zero. Yeah. That she’s getting kind of like the love and support-
(1:08:53) speaker_0: Yeah.
(1:08:53) speaker_1: … in some ways that I didn’t.
(1:08:54) speaker_0: Right.
(1:08:55) speaker_1: You know?
(1:08:55) speaker_0: With the family and ex-family.
(1:08:57) speaker_1: No. No. I just, all I wanna do is just give her the things, you know what I mean?
(1:09:02) speaker_1: I want, she’s got like a dad who loves her, who’s so pure hearted and kind and, and completely here for her and not th- you know, like, we’re living a very like non-gender role reality in our family, and I was like, “I like that so much for her,” and she laughs so much and receives so much love.
(1:09:21) speaker_1: And I, oh no, I think I would feel sad if she had to share all of that with a, a sibling.
(1:09:27) speaker_1: (laughs) But maybe she’ll curse us later and say like, “Why did you give me a brother?
(1:09:32) speaker_1: ” But I think just kind of like spoiling with her with love and letting her be like the protagonist in her childhood is what I want for her.
(1:09:41) speaker_1: And so, that’s, that’s maybe how I’m doing my retribution. But I’m not jealous because I created this for her, you know what I mean?
(1:09:49) speaker_1: Like, I’m doing this, I mad- I made this reality so that she could find this kind of joy and happiness. And I’m just proud of her and who she is.
(1:10:00) speaker_1: And no matter who she is, I’m proud of who she is and…
(1:10:04) speaker_0: Any, any last words you, or advice, or for adoptees who are going through it in Korea and (laughs) there’s…
(1:10:15) speaker_1: Yeah. You know, I wanted to say before like when you were saying you had a really rough first year, I’m really sorry.
(1:10:22) speaker_1: And I also had a really difficult first year. I think it was one of the loneliest times of my life.
(1:10:28) speaker_1: And I’m just really glad that I didn’t, mm, stop there and let that be the end.
(1:10:33) speaker_1: But I also had a different factor, and that was my Korean family that I, that motivated me to stay in some ways because I could go and see them every weekend, but that I needed to build my own life there.
(1:10:44) speaker_1: And I think once I finally stopped trying to be Korean and accept that I’m never gonna be Korean enough and I should just go back to being me, even if that made me feel that was complicated in some ways within like the white area, I have to be around like maybe white expats who acted like this way or treated Korea this way that I…
(1:11:06) speaker_1: In between all of that, I found my version of Korea, you know?
(1:11:10) speaker_1: It wasn’t perfect, but I found my version, the part that we’re all a bit like we know as Korean adoptees that we have this other race, this other part of ourselves, but we know that we need to be in Korea and to have that peace with our Korean selves too.
(1:11:23) speaker_1: And it took time. It takes time and try to learn the lang- language but just the best that you can, you know?
(1:11:30) speaker_1: And find the people that make you feel home and like yourself. It doesn’t matter what they look like.
(1:11:35) speaker_1: And keep trying and have those beautiful like peaceful moments in the countryside. Those are the best parts.
(1:11:41) speaker_1: And hiking, finding people who can take you hiking is the best.
(1:11:45) speaker_1: Uh, but I will, I just feel so grateful that someday I’m gonna take Ruby back to Korea and she’s gonna get to see this part of Korea through me that I already learned.
(1:11:56) speaker_1: And that’s really exciting, so.
(1:11:58) speaker_1: I just gr- appreciate you asking me these questions because, Carol Lee, I feel like s- the first part and this kind of like mark very different stages in my life.
(1:12:08) speaker_1: When I listened back to the first interview sometimes I thought, “What an old twat I was.” (laughs) So annoying.
(1:12:14) speaker_1: (laughs) So like hopefully I’ll think that about this version of me in a few years too.
(1:12:19) speaker_0: I love wha- where you are right now in your life. I love this and it’s…
(1:12:24) speaker_0: And, and you’re right, you know, these interviews like people are like, “Are you gonna revisit people?
(1:12:30) speaker_0: ” Because, or, you know, because people, people don’t stay the same and so it’s a point in time, and that’s not all who they are and all who they will become.
(1:12:38) speaker_0:
(1:12:38) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(1:12:39) speaker_0: And so, uh, I definitely am glad to r- you know, talk to you again and find out how your life has, has gone on, and you sound much more at peace a- with things.
(1:12:51) speaker_0:
(1:12:51) speaker_1: Thank you. I think maybe I don’t always realize it but I really am.
(1:12:56) speaker_1: And I don’t visit the woe is me kind of or how much it hurts places, but it’s not that I didn’t give those time and space ’cause I really did.
(1:13:06) speaker_1: I’m really grateful…. for that time and space. And I should also mention all of the therapy I did while in Korea.
(1:13:13) speaker_0: Oh, yes.
(1:13:14) speaker_1: Um… (laughs)
(1:13:14) speaker_0: Right.
(1:13:15) speaker_1: It was a lot. So, I am really grateful for that, and I’m so glad that I was able to get on to the next stage of my life as well, so.
(1:13:23) speaker_1: Emotionally, I mean, not just in terms of mom-ing or whatever, but, um, just emotionally to, to have space to just be in a different emotional place.
(1:13:34) speaker_1: So-
(1:13:35) speaker_0: Alicia, you’ve been such a special-
(1:13:36) speaker_1: Thank you.
(1:13:36) speaker_0: … person for the podcast too. It’s like a touchstone, sort of started with you and ending with you. So, I love that.
(1:13:43) speaker_1: Thank you.
(1:13:44) speaker_0: (laughs)
(1:13:45) speaker_1: Thank you for giving us all s- a platform to hear ourselves and to hear each other, and you’re very special and I appreciate you and I would love to hear the episode again that I, where you talk about your story.
(1:13:58) speaker_1: I think I, I tried to find it recently and couldn’t, so you’ll have to let me know where I can listen to it.
(1:14:02) speaker_0: Okay. Um, if people wanna, if people wanna write you or follow you or, how can they do it?
(1:14:09) speaker_1: Uh, yeah. You can…
(1:14:10) speaker_1: I’m not very active on Instagram anymore in terms of posting, but I’m still there lurking in the corners watching things I probably-
(1:14:17) speaker_0: Oh. (laughs)
(1:14:18) speaker_1: (laughs) That probably don’t make me feel great about myself. So @soonalicia. So just my name inverted, Soonalicia, on Instagram.
(1:14:26) speaker_1: And happy to talk to other adoptees and hear what’s going on with them and fielding questions or please, I would love to have a Korean adoptee-
(1:14:34) speaker_7: Wee. Yeah.
(1:14:34) speaker_1: … circle started by me-
(1:14:36) speaker_7: Wee.
(1:14:36) speaker_1: … in Spain, so please come. (laughs)
(1:14:37) speaker_0: Yeah. Okay.
(1:14:39) speaker_1: We’d love other Korean adoptees.
(1:14:40) speaker_0: Uh, let’s, let’s meet up maybe in Korea some day or some thing. I would love to.
(1:14:46) speaker_1: I would love that. (instrumental music plays)
(1:15:02) speaker_0: First, I wanna say a special thank you to Alicia for sharing and reflecting so deeply, and for interviewing me for my own episode.
(1:15:11) speaker_0: I wanna thank you for your enduring friendship, even if we don’t communicate often.
(1:15:16) speaker_0: And thank you for inspiring me along the way, first in how you lived your life in Korea, and now, how you choose to deal with your pain and your determination that it not be Ruby’s to carry.
(1:15:28) speaker_0: I say this at the end of every episode, but this podcast would not be what it has become without the financial support of all the past and present supporters on Patreon, Kickstarter, and our T-shirt fundraiser.
(1:15:44) speaker_0: The funding allowed me to pay for things like podcast hosting, graphic design apps, website hosting, Korean translation, and for some episodes to be transcribed into text.
(1:15:57) speaker_0: I’ll keep the Patreon open for a little while in case folks wanna continue to donate towards continued website hosting.
(1:16:05) speaker_0: The plan is to have the website continue in perpetuity as a resource for our community and for those who love us.
(1:16:13) speaker_0: A special heartfelt thanks to the Korean translators, 이호형 in Seoul, 정근황 on Jeju, and 유근정 in Michigan. Their work can be found at the website adaptedpodcast.com.
(1:16:29) speaker_0: If you would like to drop a note, I’m at kaomig@gmail.com. This concludes the podcast and our amazing eight-year run.
(1:16:41) speaker_0: I couldn’t be prouder of the stories people shared and the courage it took to do so.
(1:16:47) speaker_0: I hope this podcast has helped you to process your own adoption story and to evolve in your life with grace, knowledge, and in peace.
(1:16:59) speaker_0: As Alicia so aptly reminds us, “We are not our trauma. Our lives are much bigger and hopeful than that.” In peace, I’m Kaomi Lee.
(1:18:38) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays)