Geoffrey Winder (Jeong Kae-bin) (he/him), 42, of Oakland, CA, shares some of his story as a queer Black Korean transnational and transracial adopted man and about his activism in queer advocacy, adoptee community, education justice and leadership spaces.
Audio available Friday, August 2, 2024.
(0:00:09) speaker_0: Welcome to Adapted Podcast, Season 7, Episode 24 starts now. This is a podcast that since 2016 has centered the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.
(0:00:23) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of our lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.
(0:00:32) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families, and society that expects only a feel-good story.
(0:00:43) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.
(0:00:48) speaker_1: My mom, like, went through, like, a whole, I don’t know, like, long, like, a day or j- a day or of crying, and then she, you know, she’s like, “Oh, you’re never gonna have grandkid,” or, “I’m never gonna have grandkids, you’re never gonna have kids.
(0:01:00) speaker_1: ” And then she had like this moment and she said, “Well, I guess you could adopt.”
(0:01:05) speaker_0: This next conversation is with Jeffrey Winder, a Black-Korean trans-racially and trans-nationally adopted person.
(0:01:13) speaker_0: He’s dedicated his life’s work to queer advocacy and co-leadership spaces. Now, here’s Jeffrey.
(0:01:31) speaker_1: Great. My name is Jeffrey Winder. Um, my middle name is Kevin, and my name on my birth certificate is Jong Kebin.
(0:01:42) speaker_1: Um, and I am, uh, I use he, him, his pronouns, and I’m on Ohlone land here in Oakland, California, and I’m 42.
(0:01:52) speaker_0: So, um, Jeffrey, where do you wanna, wanna, wanna start? Do you wanna talk a little bit about yourself and we can go from there?
(0:02:01) speaker_1: Sure. Um, well, I, I was born in Seoul, South Korea in, in 1982.
(0:02:07) speaker_1: Um, and I was, uh, I spent the first year and a half of my life in a orphanage in Seoul, and then I was adopted to the United States, um, to a white family who lived in Colorado.
(0:02:23) speaker_1: And I, uh, grew up in Davis, California.
(0:02:26) speaker_1: Um, so after I, I came to Colorado, I, uh, the family moved, uh, to California, and I spent most of my, um, well, all of my, my schooling years in California and most of my, uh, adult, uh, years.
(0:02:43) speaker_1: Um, I currently live in Oakland, California, and I’ve been here for about 16 years.
(0:02:51) speaker_1: Um, and, uh, I’ve s- most recently, um, or sort of most notably I think in my professional work, uh, served as the co-executive director of, of the Genders and Sexualities Alliance Network, formerly the Gay Straight Alliance Network.
(0:03:05) speaker_1: Um, and we u- we work with high school, or I used to, I guess, work with high school LGBT youth clubs.
(0:03:12) speaker_1: Um, and that’s how I got my start in activism actually, is that I started the high school GSA at Davis High School.
(0:03:20) speaker_0: Um, how gratifying has this work been?
(0:03:24) speaker_1: Um, I, I don’t know how, uh, people, you know, feel if they’ve done their calling, but I think that’s as close to, um, you know, as it, uh, close to the feeling as I can describe it, is that I feel like I did, uh, the work I was supposed to do in the sort of very bizarre circumstances that, you know, was my beginning and existence.
(0:03:50) speaker_1:
(0:03:50) speaker_0: Sure, sure. Okay. Um, when you were in high school at Davis, um, were you out? And, and what was the environment like for, for queer kids?
(0:04:02) speaker_1: Yeah. So it was, um, 1998, 1999-ish, so I guess, uh, still in the last century, um, or the previous century. And, uh, I, uh, was out.
(0:04:15) speaker_1: I came out when I was 15, uh, to like some sort of close friends, and then I came out 16, uh, publicly when I started the, the GSA club.
(0:04:27) speaker_1: Um, and when I started it, there was no other out kids at the school. Um, and I was the only out, uh, student.
(0:04:35) speaker_1: Um, uh, uh, and then, so for my whole sort of high school career, I was the only out male student.
(0:04:42) speaker_1: Um, and the club, uh, the club, uh, dealt with sort of the things that you would imagine a club dealing with in the early sort of, um, start of the LGBT rights, uh, you know, fights.
(0:04:58) speaker_1: Um, and so it was, it was l- I mean, it was homophobia and it was also a sort of very supportive school administration that, uh, I don’t know if they saw the value in the club or they just were, you know, sick and tired of me harassing them, but, um, supported a lot of the activities that the club did to bring awareness and, and education to students around LGBTQ issues.
(0:05:20) speaker_1:
(0:05:20) speaker_0: So you were really kind of a pioneer in your school.
(0:05:24) speaker_1: Uh, uh, I mean, I guess in many ways, yes. It was also, you know, a majority white school. I think there was eight Black students in my graduating class.
(0:05:34) speaker_1: Um, and yeah, so I think in many ways my existence there was an anomaly and perhaps pioneering also.
(0:05:42) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. So you were ad- you were adopted by white parents who settled in a primarily white area, right? (laughs)
(0:05:53) speaker_1: Yes.
(0:05:53) speaker_0: That-
(0:05:54) speaker_1: Although-
(0:05:54) speaker_0: That sounds very familiar. (laughs)
(0:05:54) speaker_1: … although it was California (laughs).
(0:05:56) speaker_1: Yeah, luckily it was California, and so, you know, when the students were in session at UC Davis, at least (laughs) there was a bunch of, you know, 20-something Asian people around.
(0:06:05) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:06:05) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How did you, uh…
(0:06:08) speaker_0: With your identities at that time, were you- uh, you know, it’s a time of, you know, you’re- you’re trying to try on different identities too.
(0:06:18) speaker_0: Um, but for you, like, being also biracial and, uh, coming out, you know, as- as, uh, queer, um, I wondered if one identity kind of took over at that moment?
(0:06:35) speaker_0:
(0:06:35) speaker_1: You know, I think for me, uh, well, so I- I grew up in California and I did go to a Korean school when I was younger.
(0:06:44) speaker_1: Um, and it was the adoptee version of Korean school though. It wasn’t like really hardcore Korean school.
(0:06:52) speaker_1: Um, but I did sort of have a- a general sense of a Koreanness identity when I was younger, growing up as somebody who, uh, you know, really didn’t have a group where anybody looked like me, um, and never really had any other sort of- sort of conversations about my identity with my parents, um, in substance outside of being Kor- you know, being adopted from Korea.
(0:07:17) speaker_1: Um, and I also have a sister who is also adopted from Korea, and she’s also half Korean and she’s half Latina.
(0:07:26) speaker_1: Um, but as I- so and sort of in my navigation of- of, you know, growing up, um, m- didn’t really feel like outside of my own, you know, personal sense that folks either saw me as Korean or included me when they thought about, you know, Asian people.
(0:07:43) speaker_1: Um, and so in high school when I, um…
(0:07:46) speaker_1: Well, I guess I would say that coming out and- and being queer sort of gave me a whole new way to understand sort of a hybrid identity and sort of multiplicity of existence and- and duality or I mean, not even duality, but just sort of fluidity, uh, in- in identity.
(0:08:04) speaker_1: And- and so, um, you know, being queer, uh, gave me a whole new way of thinking about myself outside of sort of the racial categories that I didn’t fit into, um, and sort of in queer spaces, sort of race wasn’t the predominant, you know, unifying thing about the space.
(0:08:24) speaker_1: And so, um, you know, found sort of, uh, ease and comfort in being a mixed race person in a queer space that wasn’t focused on…
(0:08:33) speaker_1: You know, there was a space that wasn’t sort of- uh, a social space that wasn’t based around racial identity.
(0:08:40) speaker_1: Um, and then sort of as I went to college and really sort of…
(0:08:43) speaker_1: And- and I went to college in New York at NYU and sort of going to a place where I was much more racialized as a Black person in this- in sort of spaces and, yeah, in everyday life that I sort of really began to more fully understand and- and…
(0:08:59) speaker_1: Yeah, um, I wouldn’t s- yeah, I- I- I wouldn’t say em- embrace as in I wasn’t embracing it before, but- but seeing my Blackness as a source of- of strength in my identity, like all of the other components.
(0:09:13) speaker_1: Um, and so I guess now, you know, I identify as a multiracial queer person of color, um, or as a- as a Black Korean queer person, and I feel like, yeah, have a good sense of sort of how all of those components make up myself- make myself who I am now, um, but I think that was definitely a journey over sort of my whole- whole, you know, into my a- adulthood.
(0:09:39) speaker_1:
(0:09:39) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:09:40) speaker_0: So, oh, so, so like your queer identity was kind of the first, um, place of comfort and strength that you inhabited, and then later when you were in New York and really coming into your identity as, you know, as Black and then the Korean or Asian part came later?
(0:10:03) speaker_0:
(0:10:03) speaker_1: Oh, that was sort of the beg- that was the sort of the beginning part. So-
(0:10:07) speaker_0: Okay.
(0:10:08) speaker_1: …
(0:10:08) speaker_1: um, sort of my elementary identity, um, and sort of up until I came out, you know, sort of the only other sort of identity I had was sort of related to being Korean and going to Korean school and, you know, learning, um, Korean in- in the way that they teach, uh, Korean to adoptees.
(0:10:26) speaker_1: And, um, so yeah, so that’d be- so sort of my identity was really around Koreanness, but not really because it wasn’t…
(0:10:35) speaker_1: It was like rooted in the imagination of Korea, um, and Koreanness, and then I came out as queer, and I think after that have sort of been able to interrogate and unearth sort of more sort of authentically what Koreanness means to me and being kr- you know, being a- a Black queer Korean adoptee.
(0:10:55) speaker_1: Um, yeah.
(0:10:57) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Can you talk more about that? What- what does being a Black Korean, um, mean to you?
(0:11:04) speaker_1: Um, you know, for me, I- I spent a lot of time in- in college, I think maybe like a lot of people, uh, trying to figure out what, um, what is the, yeah, what is the purpose or why or how did I come to be, uh, as I was.
(0:11:19) speaker_1: And so, you know, for me, I see it as, um, part of the story of Korea, it’s part of the story of the Cold War, it’s part of the story of, yeah, the legacy of- of the- the war on Korea and- and it being a place where the US has a large military presence to this day.
(0:11:39) speaker_1: Um, and I see my story as linked to sort of the story of- of colonized peoples everywhere that, you know, um, army and/or, uh, you know, whatever we call our- our forces in Korea, um, is stationed there and the sort of economies and/or ways in which that impacts the local population.
(0:12:04) speaker_1: Um, and so sort of in the tradition of war babies around-…
(0:12:08) speaker_1: the world throughout time, um, is sort of how I fix my own sort of, you know, coming into existence.
(0:12:15) speaker_1: And then sort of my role or my, my sort of presence as a person who, who claims, uh, you know, some, some corner or, or shred of Koreanness as part of their, um, lineage and legacy that it’s linked to this much larger sort of, and still obviously related to the sort of geopolitics of the time, um, industrialized adoption industry that Korea utilized to sort of cement its, its, you know, partnership with the United States.
(0:12:52) speaker_1: And so, sort of in my work in the world and as my, you know, as m- as a person trying to, you know, have an identity that makes sense to themselves, um, I sort of see my, my role or my i- my, my life and my identity as part of a way in which, um, as a, like, species of humans we’re moving to a more mixed raced, and I guess, you know, whatever race is a construction.
(0:13:26) speaker_1: People have been mixed throughout time. But, um, sort of a, a, a more mixed, uh, sort of geo-global citizentry, citizentry.
(0:13:36) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
(0:13:36) speaker_1: Um, yeah.
(0:13:37) speaker_0: Yeah. Moving less, less kind of black and white, you know, binary in that way.
(0:13:44) speaker_1: Yes.
(0:13:45) speaker_0: Yeah. Um, what, what was it like having… I mean, I suppose the, the only parents you know, you know, but I’m sure people…
(0:13:52) speaker_0: Do people ask you what was it like having white parents and… Um…
(0:13:58) speaker_1: Yeah. And I’ve reflected a lot on that too. I mean, you know, a lot of my work has been around identity.
(0:14:04) speaker_1: You know, my work at GSA Network was around helping LGBTQ youth form their sort of positive, um, self-identities.
(0:14:13) speaker_1: And so, yeah, I mean, I think that it’s also in sort of reflection and conversation with other adoptees who’ve had other types of white parents.
(0:14:22) speaker_1: I had just really odd, odd white people for parents. Um-
(0:14:27) speaker_0: Odd? Okay.
(0:14:29) speaker_1: Yes. In terms of, uh, they were just sort of counter-culture in a very subdued way.
(0:14:36) speaker_1: Um, they weren’t like hippies or anything like that, but they weren’t Christians, you know.
(0:14:44) speaker_1: I, I got adopted by folks who, uh, raised us as atheists or as agnostics.
(0:14:50) speaker_0: Oh, wow.
(0:14:50) speaker_1: But we really had no pressure from reli- religion to be any sort of way.
(0:14:56) speaker_1: Um, my mom was, is, uh, or was a speech and language pathologist, um, and worked with elementary students.
(0:15:03) speaker_1: And then my dad was a, uh, biochemist and environmental scientist.
(0:15:10) speaker_1: And so, um, sort of a very intellectualized upbringing, um, in terms of, yeah, just sort of the topics that we talked about, the ways in which I think they thought about race.
(0:15:23) speaker_1: Um, you know, they, they enrolled us in Korean school. My mom went to Korean school also to try to learn Korean. Um-
(0:15:31) speaker_0: Wow.
(0:15:32) speaker_1: Uh, there were things sort of around the house.
(0:15:34) speaker_1: I mean, my mom, uh, (laughs) subscribed to, to Essence and Ebony Magazine, and I think I asked her at one point, like, “Why do we even have these, you know, magazines?
(0:15:43) speaker_1: ” And she’s like, “Well, I just wanted you there to be like, you know, positive images of Black people in the house and, um, you know, things that you could read that were about Black people.
(0:15:52) speaker_1: ” And I had, you know… It was just, like, that was in my house, and I had never really thought too much about it.
(0:15:57) speaker_1: But yeah, like, think that was like a conscious effort on her part.
(0:16:01) speaker_1: Um, so yeah, I think there’s just ways in which they were, like, yeah, odd, but in a good way.
(0:16:09) speaker_1: Um, and so I think that growing up in that environment, you know, I think if, if they had had a language around race, they would have utilized it, right?
(0:16:18) speaker_1: And if, if they had, you know, had sort of the language we have now around race and whiteness, that, that would’ve been a part of our conversations.
(0:16:26) speaker_1: But it, but it wasn’t, and they were, like, using the tools that they, they had, and this is sort of pre-internet.
(0:16:32) speaker_0: Yeah. You know, people talk now. I mean, uh, when I was growing up w- you know, we didn’t have words like intersectionality.
(0:16:40) speaker_1: Right. Exactly. (laughs)
(0:16:41) speaker_0: (laughs) So would your parents talk about race, or is it just something they, they, um, wouldn’t talk about, but it was sort of like they were aware?
(0:16:52) speaker_1: So, I mean, yes. It was never like a, a question that we, you know…
(0:16:56) speaker_1: Like, we never pr- they never tried to have us pretend we were white, or we weren’t not white, or, you know, that we were not Korean.
(0:17:04) speaker_1: Um, but I think they just didn’t have the language that we have now to talk about identity and difference in a way that would make sense to, to us as kids.
(0:17:14) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, this is like the ’80s, and so a sort of a, you know, a lot of the terms that we have now to, you know…
(0:17:23) speaker_1: Because of queer folks, because of feminists, because of feminists of color, um, have to talk about identity just weren’t available to them.
(0:17:30) speaker_1: And, you know, they were smart, but they didn’t study, like, you know, race or critical race theory as (laughs) you know, students.
(0:17:38) speaker_1: So, um, uh, you know, my mom sort of in the 2020 uprisings sort of was in the reading all of the things about whiteness and White privilege.
(0:17:46) speaker_1: And I think, um, you know, she, she had a talk with me a- and Nicole.
(0:17:51) speaker_1: We talked and, and, and sort of, yeah, had her own epiphanies around how maybe she could have done something differently or better.
(0:18:00) speaker_1: But, you know, to my mind, um, yeah, they, they never, you know, made us feel bad about any part of our identity.
(0:18:08) speaker_1: And so, yeah, to me that was (laughs) a win.
(0:18:13) speaker_0: Yeah, so they’re ver- they were, um, cognizant of their own White privilege.
(0:18:17) speaker_1: Uh, I’d- I- I- I think that they were, but they didn’t have the language around White privilege. So, um, like-
(0:18:24) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:18:24) speaker_1: … they would try to…
(0:18:26) speaker_1: Yes, but I think that they were because obviously we would be out and about and people would say things, and they would have to engage with other White people about why they had White kids, and we would be there watching them do that or, um, yeah, like, that, that, uh, you know, I would be…
(0:18:43) speaker_1: Yes, I would be experiencing some situation one way and then my mom, my Wi- White mom would show up, and then the situation would change, and then we would sort of joke about how, you know, thank goodness she’s- she was there, which was really thank goodness she was White.
(0:18:59) speaker_1:
(0:18:59) speaker_0: Did you, um… Like a lot of transracial adoptees, you know, did…
(0:19:04) speaker_0: I’m sure there’s- there was some uncomfortable or, you know, kind of awkward moments with your parents, um, when you’re out in public.
(0:19:12) speaker_1: Yes. I mean, and particularly ’cause we were both, you know… Be… My- me and my sister both multi- mixed-raced, um, uh, Korean, um, adoptees.
(0:19:23) speaker_1: So, we didn’t really fit into racial categories that people were easily able to identify, which also caused some sort of l- awkward conversations.
(0:19:33) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, I think that the… I, I mean, I… You know. So, th- so they were odd. And so the whole situation was just odd.
(0:19:42) speaker_1: Like, my dad, you know, grew up in Colorado, but he refused to wear long pants any time of the year. So like he… You know. There’d be times where…
(0:19:51) speaker_1: And this is, like, more when I was a little kid and we were still in Colorado, but, you know, he’d wear shorts in the winter.
(0:19:57) speaker_1: So it’d be like a, a White guy with shorts on with these two Brown kids in the middle of the snow, and people really thought, like, he was crazy or like he…
(0:20:07) speaker_1: you know, something was, like, totally off about this situation (laughs) of why there’s these two kids with a man in shorts in the middle of the winter.
(0:20:14) speaker_1: Um, and so I think that there’s definitely been like, uh, places where, um, the sort of dynamics of the family overall were just wacky and then that’s layered upon or, like, within the context of us being adopted.
(0:20:32) speaker_1: So, you know, sometimes it’s hard to tell, you know, what was the reason that people, like, stopped and gawked, you know?
(0:20:50) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays) You know, I think it got, you know, different as we got older.
(0:20:56) speaker_1: But there was definitely times when, you know, because I would have curly hair, people would touch my hair or be like in- in our space as like, uh, you know, like little, um, I don’t know, amusements or- or like a…
(0:21:13) speaker_1: What is, what is the, what is the word I’m looking for?
(0:21:17) speaker_1: Um, accessories, uh, that I don’t think, you know, my- my White parents knew how to navigate or- or did navigate in terms of like trying to mitigate that.
(0:21:30) speaker_1:
(0:21:30) speaker_0: How do you feel now about transracial adoption or, you know, uh, White folks adopting kids of color?
(0:21:37) speaker_1: I mean, I- I guess I- I don’t necessarily support it as, you know, the sort of number one go-to solution, um, for, uh, orphans of color, kids of color without, um, families.
(0:21:56) speaker_1: I do feel like there’s way more tools now and that there could potentially be White folks who did the kind of work that would be necessary to be able to do that.
(0:22:08) speaker_1: But I think generally as sort of White quips…
(0:22:11) speaker_1: Why White qui- White folks come equipped, um, sort of with their basic tools is not something that I would support as like a healthy thing for, yeah, trans- transracial adoptees, um.
(0:22:26) speaker_1: I mean, even sort of in, uh, international, you know, transnational aside, it’s, you know, not really something that I was- I’m supportive of.
(0:22:34) speaker_1: Um, and I do… Yeah, I do feel conflicted about that because obviously I have a life and a- and a story that would have never been possible.
(0:22:45) speaker_1: And I also, yeah, remember what it was like to be so confused and alone psy- sort of psychologically and emotionally as a child.
(0:22:55) speaker_0: You were psychologically alone. Did they… Did you feel like there was love there?
(0:23:02) speaker_1: Um, I mean, I definitely, I- I definitely do. And I… You know.
(0:23:06) speaker_1: My- my father passed away in 2010, and it wasn’t actually until he- he passed away that I realized that, like, you know, it was, uh… You know.
(0:23:14) speaker_1: I loved them and- and- and, you know, no doubt that they loved me.
(0:23:18) speaker_1: Um, but I think for- for me, the larger question was like whether or not I loved them or if the sort of, you know, whatever that feeling is that you have as a adoptee of- of so…
(0:23:31) speaker_1: you know. I don’t know if it’s actually a feeling or if it’s a implied sort of, uh, emotion of- of gratitude as the sort of substitute for love.
(0:23:41) speaker_1: But, uh, yeah, I think after- after he passed away, I felt like I- I was…
(0:23:46) speaker_1: Yeah, I was convinced that- that it was a- a loving situation and that it was a love that was more profound than sort of a feeling of- of gratitude.
(0:23:56) speaker_0: And your mother’s still alive?
(0:23:59) speaker_1: Yes. Uh, yeah, she’s still alive.
(0:24:01) speaker_0: Okay. Do you have a relationship with her?
(0:24:04) speaker_1: Um, yes. It- it changed after my father died, but, um, I do. And, you know, we talk regularly. Um, I- I think that, uh… You know.
(0:24:15) speaker_1: My sister has kids and a family, so she’s sort of more involved with- with that.
(0:24:23) speaker_1: Um-And, uh, yeah, she sort of had her own, uh, new life to build after my father died and so has been in her, her second, uh, (laughs) second or third adventure, I don’t know, uh, what, what you’d call it, but, um…
(0:24:39) speaker_1: So it’s different, but it’s definitely, uh, you know, a relationship that’s still there and that I, I care to maintain.
(0:24:48) speaker_0: You know, they adopted two, uh, multiracial children-
(0:24:55) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:24:55) speaker_0: … from Korea. I wonder was there, was that on, was that, um, uh, on purpose? I mean, had, did they set out to…
(0:25:06) speaker_1: Well, they didn’t initially with me, but then after they got me, they said, and this was like many years later that I found out, that they had tried to find another Korean and Black, um, child to adopt so that I would have a sibling that looked like me.
(0:25:21) speaker_1: Uh, um, but, you know, they, they, I don’t know, they couldn’t or it didn’t work out that way, but that was also why they adopted another multiracial Korean child.
(0:25:31) speaker_1:
(0:25:32) speaker_0: Okay. Yeah, I wonder why they were interested in specifically Korean and Black.
(0:25:37) speaker_1: Well, I don’t think they were.
(0:25:38) speaker_1: Um, I think that was the, you know, the baby that was sent over by the orphanage, you know, the picture that was sent over by the orphanage and I think they were just gonna take the first one probably.
(0:25:49) speaker_1: Um, and so, uh, initially it wasn’t. I, I think they were just looking to do a, you know, just a Korean adoption like it was being advertised at the time.
(0:25:59) speaker_1: And then after, yeah, after they got me was when they decided to have another multiracial or adopt another multiracial Korean child.
(0:26:10) speaker_0: Okay. Okay. Um, was it hard for you to come out to them?
(0:26:14) speaker_1: Well, you know, in my mind it was, but in the grand scheme of coming out, it’s, uh, fairly easy and non-existent thing.
(0:26:25) speaker_1: Um, I think the only sort of thing that still stands out to me to this day is that my mom, like, went through, like, a whole, I don’t know, like, long, like, a day or s- a day or of crying, um, and, and, you know, finally after I, like, decided to talk to her again, um, asked me what she was crying about and then sh- you know, she’s like, she’s like, “Oh, you’re never gonna have grandkid…
(0:26:48) speaker_1: ” Or, “I’m never gonna have grandkids. You’re never gonna have kids.” And then she had, like, this moment and she said, “Well, I guess you could adopt.
(0:26:55) speaker_1: ” Um, and so that was just a little bit like a, “Oh, okay” moment. But, um, yeah, I found that as a, as one of the, sort of, or the most remarkable thing.
(0:27:06) speaker_1: I think my dad was a non-reaction and not in a negative way, but in a, like, “I’ll support you doing whatever you wanna do.
(0:27:13) speaker_1: ” And that was also at the time when I was trying to get more involved in LGBT activism and, and sort of join GSA Network, the organization that I, um, was the co-executive director of, um, you know, in my, my sophomore year and spent sort of three years doing sort of hard, well, I guess it was, was hardcore, but for being a queer youth, it, it felt hardcore, um, sort of youth organizing to try to get more students to start their GSA clubs in California.
(0:27:43) speaker_1: And so I was traveling a lot and doing sort of a lot of publicly facing LGBT stuff and both of them were very, you know, encouraging and supportive of, of that, I think, just because they saw the transformation, sort of, in me from being a really very angry and depressed, um, yeah, uh, adolescent to channeling my emotions into something positive, I guess.
(0:28:08) speaker_1:
(0:28:10) speaker_0: It, in high schools in California right now, are, are there GSA clubs in, in all the high schools?
(0:28:17) speaker_1: Um, not all of them. I think it’s about 60% of them.
(0:28:20) speaker_1: And, you know, that’s, uh, you know, that’s probably close to, like, uh, now I’m gonna totally mess up my numbers, but I, you know, that’s probably around f- five, 500 or 600 individual school, high schools.
(0:28:34) speaker_1:
(0:28:35) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:28:35) speaker_1: Um, and when I started my GSA club and joined the, the network, our, our GSA was number 40, so, um-
(0:28:43) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:28:44) speaker_1: … you know, ours was real- mine, the, mine was really early on and, you know, you’re still running all this 25 years later.
(0:28:52) speaker_1: Um, and, and, and that was, like, the very beginning of this, sort of, yeah, this movement across California and of the country to, to build these clubs for, for LGBT students.
(0:29:04) speaker_1:
(0:29:04) speaker_0: Sounds like it might have been a bit lonely.
(0:29:09) speaker_1: Um, you know, I think that it could have been, but because I…
(0:29:14) speaker_1: You know, I think, well, uh, like I, I, I’m reflecting back on it and I’ve just, like, I, I would never have been that outgoing or, like, or I, you know, in my, I guess, my old age, uh, I don’t feel like I was, I’m as outgoing or risk-taking or gregarious as I was then.
(0:29:33) speaker_1: But then, um, I mean, it was like, uh, maybe like an exciting loneliness. Um, it wasn’t, I guess, a loneliness where I felt like it was gonna…
(0:29:46) speaker_1: Like, I, maybe it felt, it was the feeling was, like, I was, I was working to end the loneliness is maybe what I’m trying to describe.
(0:29:52) speaker_1: Like, it didn’t feel lonely, but if I think back on it, you know, uh, or, like, just analyze the situation, it would be a lonely situation.
(0:30:01) speaker_0: Did you… Sometimes, um, we, we adoptees talk about just, um, having this, uh, hole or this void that you can’t fill.
(0:30:16) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:30:18) speaker_0: Did you experience that?
(0:30:19) speaker_1: Um, I think not in the same, same way, because I saw my sister sort of experience it and, you know, that was very much, like, driven by her need to do her search….
(0:30:30) speaker_1: and to figure out sort of her mom’s story, and as a result, her story.
(0:30:37) speaker_1: And for me, um, y- you know, what I, I think what, what that was filled by was sort of, or s- or, or, um, sort of subsumed under was the sort of being in the closet around queerness and, you know, trying to figure out my, who I was as like a, yeah, like as a, as a non-heterosexual person.
(0:31:04) speaker_1: I mean, obviously, I didn’t have this language as a child, but, you know, I think the, the feeling of difference was so profound in so many ways that it’s hard for me to tell what that was apart from sort of the larger, um, totality of, of feeling othered and different sort of in, yeah, in my (laughs) in, in the total of my identities.
(0:31:31) speaker_1:
(0:31:31) speaker_0: Right. Okay. When you went to New York, NYU, I mean, it must have just been mind-blowing-
(0:31:38) speaker_1: Uh, i- i- i- it-
(0:31:40) speaker_0: … at that time.
(0:31:41) speaker_1: Well, (laughs).
(0:31:43) speaker_0: (laughs).
(0:31:43) speaker_1: That’s a- Well, because I’m only making that weird, uh, noise because the first day of NYU was actually 9/11, um, so-
(0:31:50) speaker_0: Oh, wow.
(0:31:51) speaker_1: … it was, uh, yes, um, in many ways a m- life-altering experience.
(0:31:58) speaker_1: Um, and yeah, I mean, uh, uh, New York, I think, was really where I felt my, um, like different racial identities more acutely, sort of as I moved through different neighborhoods or was in different areas of the city sort of the way I was racialized, um, was different, right?
(0:32:18) speaker_1: And so it could be someone asking me if I speak English and where I’m from, you know, in one area and people like following me around to the store and telling me to take off my, you know, hood on my hoodie in another-
(0:32:33) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:32:33) speaker_1: … area.
(0:32:34) speaker_1: So that I think was one of the sort of more, yeah, unique and like revealing experiences that I had in New York around my identity, was just having it so sort of starkly different, the ways that people were interpreting how I looked or, or what they saw when they looked at me.
(0:32:52) speaker_1:
(0:32:52) speaker_0: You know, I lived in New York for, um, seven years, and, uh, one of the things that surprised me about that experience is, you know, I thought, “Okay, it’s the melting pot,” or you go and there’s this, you, you can-
(0:33:07) speaker_1: Right. (laughs)
(0:33:08) speaker_0: What I didn’t realize is, you know, or what I didn’t expect is, you know, all the racial tension.
(0:33:15) speaker_1: Right, and how segregated it is sort of within-
(0:33:18) speaker_0: Or like-
(0:33:18) speaker_1: … the micro-neighborhoods, uh.
(0:33:19) speaker_0: Right, like if you’re in Harlem and people, you know, racial slurs against me, you know, if they saw me, “Go back to China,” or, you know.
(0:33:28) speaker_0: And then I can imagine there’s probably tension towards, uh, Black folks in-
(0:33:34) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:33:34) speaker_0: … Chinatown or Asian communities.
(0:33:36) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:33:36) speaker_0: You know?
(0:33:36) speaker_1: Right, or even in an Asian market, yeah. I mean, yeah.
(0:33:40) speaker_1: So c- all of the, all of the ways in which (laughs) racialized dynamics in the cityscape played out was definitely, I think, sort of experienced sort of through my, you know, my body, my, my identity, and I think that’s, yeah, I think that’s one of the ways that actually helped me really come to understand my identity in relationship to the world and how other people experienced my identity.
(0:34:07) speaker_1: Um, and I don’t know if I would have gotten that if I hadn’t gone to a, a city like New York where it was sort of so, so uniquely different in different areas depending on where you were in the city.
(0:34:17) speaker_1:
(0:34:17) speaker_0: Yeah. How did you find your place in New York?
(0:34:20) speaker_1: Um, well, I guess, you know, I, I, I went to New York imagining that I was gonna study queer theory and sort of continue the work I had been doing in high school, which was really sort of building sort of the LGBT youth movement.
(0:34:37) speaker_1: Um, and then, uh, I had also joined like a, a, I don’t know what, we had a horrible name, like B- BAYMSA? BLAYMSA?
(0:34:48) speaker_1: It’s like the Bi and Mixed Race Student Alliance or something, um, and-
(0:34:55) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:34:55) speaker_1: …
(0:34:55) speaker_1: uh, was, you know, thinking about doing some work there, and then, uh, it was also, like I said, you know, 9/11 had happened, and so really a lot of my activism and sort of my community became the sort of anti-war activist, um, community, uh, that was, was, you know, formed out of sort of NYU students, but also much broader, obviously.
(0:35:19) speaker_1: And, um-
(0:35:22) speaker_0: Anti-militarism?
(0:35:23) speaker_1: Yep.
(0:35:23) speaker_1: Uh, sort of all of the, all of the, you know, and sort of my o- my own understanding of sort of, uh, military empire, the US hegemony, and sort of all of the things that, you know, I talked about earlier, my understanding of, of, of the Cold War and, and how Korean adoptees came to be, um, was sort of built during that time when I was building my understanding about how sort of, yes, h- you know, how did even 9/11 happen and oh, okay, now I’m looking at all of these other policies and it’s become this whole now long legacy of (laughs) of, uh, whatever you wanna call it, uh, military exploitation and conquest.
(0:36:07) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, the, the, the community that I developed sort of there was really built around a political identity.
(0:36:15) speaker_1: And so in that space, you know, my, my racial identity and my queerness were sort of even, sort of even less relevant, um, and that like the, the sort of, sort of need to still be or still try to find a way to, um……
(0:36:35) speaker_1: yeah, validate or, or be authentic to who I, who I, who I am and my history and my, you know, my current political sort of orientations was sort of always there.
(0:36:45) speaker_1: And I don’t think I really found like a, a place place till I got to, to Oakland.
(0:36:51) speaker_1: Um, and that was sort of when it felt like I could see, you know, Black and Asian couples and I could see Black and Asian babies that it felt like, “Oh, okay, there’s like a place for my like,” the, yeah, where the presentation of my identity or my identity, um, could make sense to people who look at me as, you know, (laughs) who, who look at me.
(0:37:11) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:37:12) speaker_0: Yeah, um, that’s just really profound.
(0:37:15) speaker_0: I mean, in your own body you kind of embody the, you know, like the ideas you were talking about, the militarism, um, colonialism or, um, conquest, (laughs) imperialism.
(0:37:30) speaker_0:
(0:37:31) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:37:31) speaker_0: Um, that’s ver- just very profound, um, to, uh, become a, an activist in that space.
(0:37:40) speaker_1: Y- I, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think that, you know, em- also to just like help me sorta understand the, the context in which sort of South Koreans live in, the whole peninsula, just the way in which, um, you know, our voice as adoptees but sort of particularly the voice of Black, Black Korean folks has its own, own place and resonance in terms of what the legacy is and sort of what Korea got the, the sort of military presence and also of the sort of cultural racism and ways in which white supremacy, you know, permeates, um, and creates a heg- you know, hegemony in places that it, it exists.
(0:38:26) speaker_1: And so the, sort of the legacy of, of US racism in Korea, um, and the ways in which, you know, now it’s become, you know, its own form of raci- So, all of the things that sort of are the questions about like, like a heterogeneous society and, and diversity and acceptance within a non-US context as well as the (laughs) the like imposition of the US context, um, it does feel very, uh, complex at times we could say.
(0:38:56) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:38:57) speaker_0: You know, um, i- if you don’t wanna talk about politics, uh, uh, the, the election w- we don’t have to, um, but I did wanna…
(0:39:06) speaker_0: I was- I, uh, you know, just I thought of is, you know, just wondering how-
(0:39:11) speaker_1: That’s the pleasure in running for pre- president.
(0:39:12) speaker_0: Yeah, with, with, with, uh, Kamala Harris, um, being, um, Black and Asian, um-
(0:39:20) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:39:20) speaker_1: I, I would have never in my wildest d- I mean, I think Barack Obama was enough wild dreams for one lifetime, but yeah, the fact that there is a potential for a Black and Asian American president is something that is, I think, um, just, uh, y- like, sort of both profoundly validating and speaks to maybe a larger, yeah, a, a larger way in which we’re going to be able to conceptualize race and racial identity and sort of the ways in which the legacies of colonialism, imperialism, militarism, um, and, uh, globalization, and you know, movements of people by choice as well as movements of people not by choice, um, could, could remake the ways in which Americans think about race in this country.
(0:40:22) speaker_1: I mean, that may be a very high hope given where we’re coming from or starting places.
(0:40:27) speaker_1: But, um, yeah, I, I would have never and, and I’m still a little bit, um, you know, i- in, in flabbergasted, in shock, shocked, I don’t know, um, that a, a Black and Asian person is (laughs) in the, the spotlight as they are and that, um, yeah, all of the conversations that could come from, from that.
(0:40:54) speaker_1:
(0:40:54) speaker_0: Do you feel like in your, um, you know, maybe not in Oakland because, um, you know, it’s so diverse, but and you see so many mixtures of folks and couples and, um, relationships.
(0:41:08) speaker_0: But I wonder do, uh, sometimes do you feel like you ha- you, you downplay one side to, uh, depending on, I don’t know, people talk about shape sh- shape shifting, code switching-
(0:41:22) speaker_1: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
(0:41:22) speaker_0: … but like you’re Black in some circles and maybe you’re Korean in others. (laughs)
(0:41:30) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean, I think that my whole, you know, my whole life since childhood has been sort of about being a, a chameleon in spaces and/or, you know, learning how to invisibilize parts of myself or my whole self in spaces.
(0:41:44) speaker_1: Um, and I think that that’s true, um, sort of a- sort of through my, my career and sort of as I, you know, uh, the main work that I did at GSN Network was sort of build, uh, organizations that can work for trans and queer people of color.
(0:42:02) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, through that work, you know, being the person of color that was called for at the time or needed, um, was something that I, yeah, that I felt fine with doing.
(0:42:17) speaker_1: Also sort of being ambiguously, just a ambiguously the non-categorizable person of color has been something that’s worked to my advantage.
(0:42:29) speaker_1: Um, and I think that I guess I don’t shy away from or I don’t ever s- you know, deny any, any part of my identity so, um, you know, if folks……
(0:42:41) speaker_1: think I’m Black, I will definitely say that I’m, you know, I’m Black and Korean.
(0:42:45) speaker_1: And if folks, uh, well, you know, if folks, uh, don’t think I’m just Korean, um, but, uh, you know, I, I don’t s- you know, not say that I’m, I’m, I’m Black as well.
(0:42:56) speaker_1: And so I think the, you know, the, the main way that that would show up in my, my daily life is whether or not I introduce myself as a, as Black Korean or as a Korean Black person.
(0:43:07) speaker_1: Um, and so that often has to do with, yeah, with who’s, who, who I’m with, and who, who I, uh, who I’m trying to, I don’t know, be, be in the-
(0:43:23) speaker_0: Belonging.
(0:43:23) speaker_1: … quote unquote, yes, yes, align or belong to.
(0:43:27) speaker_0: Yeah, ’cause I, you know, and it’s, uh, going back to, uh, Kamala Harris, um, you know, in, I’ve, I’ve been privileged to be in some Black spaces where, you know, there’s so much excitement about the first, the potentially the first Black female president.
(0:43:45) speaker_0:
(0:43:45) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:43:45) speaker_0: And, and, and the Asian part isn’t really-
(0:43:48) speaker_1: Uh-huh.
(0:43:48) speaker_0: … acknowledged. And then in, like, Asian spaces, there’s so much excitement about the first Asian female president. (laughs) And so, uh, you know-
(0:43:59) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:43:59) speaker_0: … I just find that really interesting. Um, I suppose we, we find the, the, the point of, um, relatability-
(0:44:09) speaker_1: Oh, connection, yeah. Yeah.
(0:44:10) speaker_0: Yeah, connection, and then so that’s how we see that person.
(0:44:14) speaker_0: But, um, yeah, it just, it’s h- it’s like, you know, it’s just- it’s, it’s, it’s fascinating to me, but also kind of like-
(0:44:23) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:44:23) speaker_0: Can we acknowledge this person has many identities, but…
(0:44:28) speaker_1: I mean, I think probably like, you know, I don’t wanna generalize, but like, straight folks trying to acknowledge or understand, um, sort of gender fluidity or sexuality fluidity that like, if you’ve had the privilege of being able to have a single sort of monolithic or heterogeneous view of yourself and your group, then it’s also hard to think about or like incorporate that it would be a hybrid identity, or like a fluid identity, or a…
(0:44:59) speaker_1: Yeah, I think that I would, yeah, I am, I’m concurring with your assessment of how folks are able to talk about it, and I think that it has to do a lot with just like the inability to have the language or the, the, your brain doesn’t automatically go there, because that’s not how you’ve had to think this whole time, um…
(0:45:18) speaker_1:
(0:45:18) speaker_0: Or, or your experiences-
(0:45:20) speaker_1: Right, yeah.
(0:45:20) speaker_0: … that you can correlate to yourself. Um, have you been back to Korea, Jeffrey?
(0:45:24) speaker_1: I did go. Um, I went to Korea in 2000 and, oh, my goodness, I guess last 2004 now, which is 20 years ago, which sounds f- like a long time.
(0:45:36) speaker_1: Um, I went, uh, on in, like, uh, uh, adoptee kind of a tour kind of thing, but it was also like a time when some folks were like doing their search.
(0:45:47) speaker_1: So, my sister was doing her search at that time, um, but that was the only time.
(0:45:52) speaker_0: Oh, your sister was along too?
(0:45:53) speaker_1: Uh, what did you say?
(0:45:55) speaker_0: Your sister was along too on this tour?
(0:45:57) speaker_1: Oh, yeah, so it was me, my sister, and my mom, and then it was a bunch of other, well, I was the only, (laughs) I was the only man, but, um, and a bunch of other, uh, uh, late teens, early 20s, um, Korean adoptee women.
(0:46:11) speaker_1:
(0:46:12) speaker_0: Okay, so you went when you were a teenager?
(0:46:15) speaker_1: Um, wait, I must have been in my early-
(0:46:19) speaker_0: Er-
(0:46:19) speaker_1: … 20s, uh, ’cause, yeah.
(0:46:22) speaker_0: Okay.
(0:46:22) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:46:22) speaker_0: Okay. And you haven’t been back since?
(0:46:24) speaker_1: No. I have not.
(0:46:26) speaker_0: Do you, yeah, could you, if I, if I can ask, um, have you been interested in doing a search?
(0:46:35) speaker_1: Um, you know, I guess that’s a, I feel like I, I feel like I should say yes, because that feels like-
(0:46:45) speaker_0: Compulsed back.
(0:46:46) speaker_1: … what-
(0:46:46) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:46:46) speaker_1: … I don’t know, I should say.
(0:46:49) speaker_1: Um, yes, but, you know, I have not felt that like pull or compulsion, you know, like I saw my sister really could not figure out her sort of orientation in life and the world until she had done that for herself.
(0:47:03) speaker_1: Um, and so for, yeah, but for me, it’s never been, been like that, and I think, you know, obviously my like, well, let me re- not obviously, but one of the hardest days of my life, my, my year is my birthday, and I think that’s probably like the main, you know, day that I, I really dwell on, on that situation, or, you know, on being adopted and, and sort of what, and, and if my, you know, how old my mom would be and if she’s alive and if she’s doing well.
(0:47:31) speaker_1: Um, but I’ve also not sort of felt like the, um, yeah, I don’t know, that, that drive or that, that burn to, to do that.
(0:47:42) speaker_1: And I think it’s probably two things maybe.
(0:47:46) speaker_1: Um, you know, one, being queer and just sort of, yeah, just being queer and having that be something that’s like another thing to deal with again.
(0:47:57) speaker_1: Um, and then I think the other thing is really, uh, yeah, not sort of knowing the, the circumstances of my birth or whether or not it was like a, you know, uh, a joy or a trauma, or a, yeah, just, yeah, not wanting to, maybe not wanting to know, but also just not wanting to like introduce something that’s so not, (laughs) yeah, that’s so not a, a st- yeah, not a, a good memory or a situation or circumstance that, um, I feel like is like one of these sort of unknown things when you’re a mixed raced Korean.
(0:48:35) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays)
(0:48:47) speaker_0: It, it sounds like, yeah, that it, it can be quite painful.
(0:48:52) speaker_0: I mean, even the not knowing, or n- the unknowable part, um, whether you’re a product of, you know, actually a, a love relationship, but, or, and/or in a power imbalance, and/or, um, you know, the, uh, uh, you know, Am- American GI.
(0:49:13) speaker_0: Yeah.
(0:49:14) speaker_1: Right. The circumstances of the eco- yeah.
(0:49:18) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:49:18) speaker_1: The circumstances of the situation. All the things that, you know, come with (laughs) with the…
(0:49:25) speaker_1: Yeah, I think that, and that’s, I think, part of my feeling of like, I don’t know, um, solidarity with sort of, uh, well, you call them war babies, but sort of the children of the, the consequences of military, um, occupations.
(0:49:44) speaker_1: Or, or, uh, you know, what, what we wanna call them. Um, but yeah, sort of the, the reports and sort of-
(0:49:52) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:49:52) speaker_1: Yeah, not, not, I mean, yes, refugees, but more like the children born of the consequences-
(0:49:58) speaker_0: Or like refugees.
(0:49:58) speaker_1: … of a military operation. So, sort of-
(0:50:01) speaker_0: Oh.
(0:50:01) speaker_1: … after, uh, uh, sort of (laughs) in the, the aftermath of Ir- Iraq, we were hearing about all of these, um, half American-
(0:50:09) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:50:09) speaker_1: …
(0:50:09) speaker_1: half Iraqi babies being born, and so just sort of in the, in that sort of, uh, yeah, community or spirit of, of, of thinking about how, how geopolitics impacts, you know, biopolitics.
(0:50:25) speaker_1: And, and you’re, like you said, that your body is the site of sort of geopolitical and, you know, very, like, yeah, personal situations of, of everybody involved that aren’t really maybe clear, or, or the fact that it’s a war or a war situation, you know, graze everything.
(0:50:49) speaker_1:
(0:50:50) speaker_0: Right. Yeah, like embodiment-
(0:50:52) speaker_1: Yes.
(0:50:52) speaker_0: … of occupation.
(0:50:54) speaker_1: Yes.
(0:50:54) speaker_0: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and you haven’t been back to Korea since.
(0:50:59) speaker_1: Not since, since 2004. So many, many, many years.
(0:51:05) speaker_0: How did you feel when you were there?
(0:51:08) speaker_1: Um, again, you know, because I don’t n- you know, Koreans definitely didn’t embrace me as a Korean.
(0:51:15) speaker_1: Um, so I didn’t see myself as a, you know, I think as many adoptees who go back feel like I’m, like, with my people.
(0:51:23) speaker_1: I’m standing and I’m looking around and I’m seeing everyone who looks like me.
(0:51:27) speaker_1: So, I guess it didn’t feel like a, “I wish I was here because this is where my people are, the people that look like me are.
(0:51:36) speaker_1: ” But I did feel, um, a strong, yeah, like, uh, connection or…
(0:51:43) speaker_0: There was something.
(0:51:44) speaker_1: Yes, yes. I didn’t feel like just a tourist.
(0:51:48) speaker_0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is really profound when you go back and you think, “This is, this is my native land. This is the land I was born.” (laughs)
(0:51:58) speaker_1: And yeah, all the generations before.
(0:51:59) speaker_0: All the generations there.
(0:52:01) speaker_1: And-
(0:52:01) speaker_0: Your ancestors, yeah, that you might not know, so, um, ha- and, and also, I guess that goes with, uh, m- uh, questions about DNA, uh, DNA testing and, um, finding family in the States.
(0:52:16) speaker_0: That is also something that…
(0:52:20) speaker_1: Right, and I, I guess that could also, you know, I think…
(0:52:24) speaker_1: Uh, I mean, I guess my, my, to my mind, I will wait until it feels like pretty much those, you know, those two individuals might be passed away to do anything that would be like popping up as the, you know, random (laughs) member of the family, um…
(0:52:43) speaker_1:
(0:52:44) speaker_0: You don’t have the burning desire, like you talked, like, your sister about?
(0:52:47) speaker_1: Right, no, and not on- not for my, my mother or my father in terms of, um, in terms of that part.
(0:52:53) speaker_1: Like I, to me, it feels like my story was very much supposed to be a story of how do we get to a, a future sort of definition of ourselves as humans that isn’t so rooted in sort of the traditional ways of conceiving of identity.
(0:53:11) speaker_1:
(0:53:12) speaker_0: Well, and it’s interesting because, you know, um, I- I’ve lived in Korea as well, just by a year, um, uh, when I did my Fulbright, but the, the interesting, uh, an interesting takeaway is the queer folks or gay people that I met would often feel like they have to go back into the closet, even though they had been out for many years in the States.
(0:53:37) speaker_0: But in Korea, even to their biological families, they were back in the closet.
(0:53:43) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:53:43) speaker_0: And, and that’s sort of the personal sacrifice they had to make in order to, you know, um, be reunited with their families, and that has to be a, kind of a hard pill to swallow as well, to think about, I mean, in the, in your mind about Korea is, uh, you know, you may, you might not be fully accepted in all your identities, in the way you might be in Oakland.
(0:54:06) speaker_0:
(0:54:06) speaker_1: I mean, I definitely, you know, I think that there was one other Black Korean that I saw when I was back there, and he was sweeping the streets like with a broom, like a sweep- street cleaner, but like, himself, not like driving a machine.
(0:54:21) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, I think that it was very interesting to sort of feel a kind of racism like I felt in the United States.
(0:54:31) speaker_1: Um, so I think that in addition to my queerness, like there was just also a feeling of like not, yeah, maybe not being ready for who I am or not sort of being able to be sort of the full person that I wanted to be or that I already was in that space.
(0:54:50) speaker_1: And so-… yeah, I think that the, you know, I’m very supportive of all of the efforts of, of activists, uh, right now in, in Korea.
(0:55:00) speaker_1: Um, but particularly at that time when like I had sort of built my identity and it was my early 20s.
(0:55:05) speaker_1: And, you know, I remember saying something probably really rude to the pastor that ran our orphanage that we came from.
(0:55:14) speaker_1: Um, but definitely not at that time, but I have sort of felt like I could subdue any part of myself to try to make this work.
(0:55:23) speaker_1: Um, and I think that, you know, as I’ve become older, as sort of the components of my identity feel less sharp as it were in terms of like who I am, um, that, that, that I might feel differently, that I might, you know, see, yeah, see trying to be part of the group as more important in a way, um, that I would have then.
(0:55:47) speaker_1: But, you know, I have no idea. Um, I also have not been in the closet for, I don’t know, since I was 16, so I don’t know, whatever many years that is.
(0:55:55) speaker_1: Uh, it’s, um, so I don’t think that, you know, I don’t think I could fit back in a closet. I don’t think there’s a closet that could take me.
(0:56:03) speaker_0: (laughs)
(0:56:03) speaker_1: Um, and then… (laughs)
(0:56:06) speaker_0: There ain’t a closet big enough for me. (laughs)
(0:56:08) speaker_1: Right. Exactly.
(0:56:09) speaker_1: Uh, so yeah, but like I said, I think that’s also been sort of in the realm of things that have made me maybe feel less inclined or like that it’s less important for me to do sort of my searches as a component of, of my identity.
(0:56:28) speaker_1: Um, I, I think probably I have a, a, a fantasy of being able to like write a, a story that has two sort of parallel s- you know, stories of a Korean family and a Black American family, um, that come together in some, you know, in my life.
(0:56:49) speaker_1: But, um, I think that’s probably just sort of a fantasy in my head.
(0:56:53) speaker_1: But that, that I think that would be h- the reason that I would want to sort of know the most, is just to know sort of what the, the two parallel tracks of the f- the stories are.
(0:57:04) speaker_1:
(0:57:04) speaker_0: And Jeffrey, what… Are you continuing with your activism now?
(0:57:09) speaker_1: I am. Um, I, well, so I, I’m working on or, you know, my, my main sort of intellectual project right now is, is working on power sharing.
(0:57:22) speaker_1: I was a co-executive director, and, um, really, uh, finding something very sort of deeply profound in being able to and the ability to sort of lead as a co-leader, as somebody who I don’t think would have ever been executive director on my own, or would have never had the sort of, sort of cultural, institutional, or, or, you know, whatever signs to say like, “Oh, you’re a leader.
(0:57:49) speaker_1: You’re somebody that should be, um, you know, leading an organization or leading a movement.
(0:57:55) speaker_1: ” And so, um, right now I support, uh, developing and, and building out, um, uh, structures to support other co-, uh, leaders and co-leadership structures, and then also sort of, uh, emergent, younger executives that are, um, leading organizations.
(0:58:13) speaker_1: And then I’m also involved in the, uh, in KQTX, which is a, um, Korean, uh, uh, queer, trans, uh, national sort of space.
(0:58:27) speaker_1: Um, and I’m also sort of working sort of at the periphery or sort of in an advisory role, um, sort of within the same movements that I was working before within the LGBT youth and education justice spaces.
(0:58:43) speaker_1: So yes, uh, continuing my activism sort of like in the tradition of, I don’t know, geese migrating or something.
(0:58:52) speaker_1: I am rotated out of the front of the V, and I am taking my (laughs) spot to draft, um, for a little bit.
(0:59:00) speaker_1: And, uh, yeah, figuring out sort of where it makes sense for me to fit in.
(0:59:06) speaker_1: But, um, I think sort of identity, and the ways in which identity and belonging and, and sort of a holistic acceptance and understanding and sort of radical love for yourself, um, will all sort of be part of my activism going forward.
(0:59:24) speaker_1:
(0:59:24) speaker_0: Well, we definitely need more, more people that can, can help us to, um, facilitate our own, um, self-love and care.
(0:59:35) speaker_0: So I was gonna ask you about the, uh, what’d you say, the KTX?
(0:59:40) speaker_1: I think K, so Korean Queer Trans Experience is what the X I think stands for, but KQTX.
(0:59:46) speaker_0: Oh. Yeah, uh, w- how, what is that, w- working with them, what has that been like?
(0:59:50) speaker_1: Um, I mean, I think that’s probably been the, the most affirmational Korean space I’ve been in, just because, um, sort of the political orientation of the group is that they are, you know, acknowledging and understanding that there’s adoptees, there’s mixed race Koreans, that there’s, um, sort of hybrid Korean identities.
(1:00:10) speaker_1: Um, and so, uh, the group has been uh, sort of active since maybe 2018. Um, they had a conference, uh, a national queer and trans Korean conference.
(1:00:24) speaker_1: Um, and sort of since then became like a national network. Uh, obviously, it really, you know, most of it developed during the pandemic.
(1:00:34) speaker_1: Um, and so it’s, uh, so it’s been a, um, you know, it’s been a growth journey. It’s been a s- sort of small community that became a large community.
(1:00:44) speaker_1: Um, and it’s, like I said, one of the places where I feel like the most components of my identity can be like accepted and understood-ish….
(1:00:54) speaker_1: um, you know, the starting point isn’t so, so far away as it might be with, you know, a random White person or, um, someone who has less understanding around sort of queerness and sort of the, all of the ways in which Korean diaspora happens.
(1:01:10) speaker_1: Um, but yeah, I found that to be a, an interesting space, um, and a place where Koreans are grappling with a lot of different questions around identity that often it doesn’t seem like, uh, is a space for them to do that.
(1:01:27) speaker_1: I’m also s- trying to figure out where sort of adoptee politics fit back into my life.
(1:01:34) speaker_1: I did sort of more around adoptee sort of activism and organizing, I guess you could say, in my like early 20s.
(1:01:43) speaker_1: Um, and then sort of, it just became sort of a part of (laughs) this larger, you know, conglomeration of identities that I was dealing with.
(1:01:55) speaker_1: Um, and so, you know, I, I haven’t had to be such a part of my sort of political identity but within KQTX sort of, sort of th- ex-
(1:02:07) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:02:08) speaker_1: … you know, in the KQTX, um, context that, you know, adoptees are and there is such a, a sort of adoptee presence, a queer adoptee presence, um-
(1:02:17) speaker_0: There is.
(1:02:18) speaker_1: … that it does… Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(1:02:20) speaker_0: Okay.
(1:02:20) speaker_1: Um, that it does feel like a place where, um, you know, uh, folks are, are, are expecting me to and, and, um, hoping that I will be able to lean more into or bring more sort of analysis around or, or representation around being an adoptee, um, and yeah.
(1:02:39) speaker_1: I mean, I, I, I guess it’s not, I don’t shy away from it.
(1:02:42) speaker_1: I, I tell people I’m a Korean American adoptee or I’m a, I’m a transnational adoptee from Korea, um, and so yeah.
(1:02:50) speaker_1: So I tell people that I think mainly just to give them sort of a larger context because most people wanna imagine sort of what my life was like with a Korean mom and a Black dad in the United States and ask me all sorts of questions that, you know, don’t really relate to my experience.
(1:03:06) speaker_1: Um, and yeah. And it- it’s also not a place that I’ve spent as much intellectual energy, um, recently.
(1:03:15) speaker_0: Well, you know, I, it, that’s good to hear that, um, there is that, uh, y- you are feeling very connected there because I’ve heard, um, that Korean adoptee spaces can feel very hetero.
(1:03:31) speaker_0:
(1:03:32) speaker_1: Well, so KQTX is the queer-
(1:03:35) speaker_0: Right.
(1:03:35) speaker_1: … queer space that it feels, you know, accepting of adoptees.
(1:03:39) speaker_1: The, uh, the adoptee spaces are sort of very hetero and very, um, I don’t know, White-centric and s-
(1:03:47) speaker_0: Yeah.
(1:03:48) speaker_1: … White supremacy-embracing kind of spaces. (laughs)
(1:03:51) speaker_0: (laughs) Yeah. Uh, uh, I mean, inherent, you know, with that transracial adoption piece, it’s-
(1:03:59) speaker_1: I mean, I, I think that the, the f- the gift that it gave me was to be able to watch White supremacy like in action as a like, I mean, beneficiary in a, a sort of sense, but really as someone who’s able to see how it operates for White people up close, um, because that’s just explains so much about l- (laughs) about so many things about sort of where we are as a country and the limitations of what White people and White sort of like my parents were the, you know, what you would’ve hoped for a, a, an adoptee could get or a, a trans-, um, racial adoptee could get in terms of just being open to knowledge and new ideas.
(1:04:48) speaker_1: And even that was so far from what, you know, what was either needed or what, what, um, yeah, what, what should’ve been that you just don’t…
(1:04:59) speaker_1: Y- yeah, it just gives you just a, I don’t know, um, when you don’t have to question anything about anything in the world, then it just gives you such a limited range of ways to express what’s happening.
(1:05:09) speaker_1:
(1:05:09) speaker_0: I mean, even, um, adoptees, you know, young adoptees today to have a, a White parent taking-
(1:05:18) speaker_1: Yeah.
(1:05:18) speaker_0: … Korean, you know, um, in order to, you know, relate to her, you know, family and ch- um, uh, that, that even today feels very forward.
(1:05:29) speaker_0: (laughs) I mean, very advanced, you know? Or very conscious.
(1:05:33) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, uh, s- uh, s- I mean, I guess it was but, you know, sh- my mom went to a class with other parents.
(1:05:38) speaker_1: She wasn’t going to like Korean school with-
(1:05:40) speaker_0: Oh, other adoptive parents?
(1:05:42) speaker_1: … Korean people, she’s going to.
(1:05:42) speaker_0: It was kind of-
(1:05:42) speaker_1: Uh-huh. So there was like enough of them to make a class.
(1:05:45) speaker_0: Oh, okay.
(1:05:45) speaker_1: So I mean, I think that, I think probably one of these books they said something about you should send your kids to Korean school and go with them so it looks like you care or something.
(1:05:54) speaker_1:
(1:05:55) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:05:55) speaker_1: Um, I mean, that’s probably a little bit funny but-
(1:05:58) speaker_0: Yeah, yeah.
(1:05:58) speaker_1: … um, yeah.
(1:05:59) speaker_1: I mean, I think it was probably some recommendation somewhere and so that was what they were doing but it wasn’t a bad recommendation, I guess.
(1:06:07) speaker_1: (laughs)
(1:06:07) speaker_0: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of one of those things like, you know, could it be performative or could it be also like…
(1:06:14) speaker_0: But I think it’s, you know, at least taking a step towards culture.
(1:06:19) speaker_1: I mean-
(1:06:20) speaker_0: And-
(1:06:20) speaker_1: … it was also like a, a act of humility ’cause, you know, they made them sing in Korean.
(1:06:25) speaker_1: They made them do all of these things that you’re just like, “Oh my gosh. Okay.
(1:06:29) speaker_1: ” And like when I look back at it, I was, I woulda, I would have never done that. I would’ve said, “See you. I’ll drop you off.” Um. (laughs)
(1:06:39) speaker_0: It, it is kind of an, yeah.
(1:06:41) speaker_0: (laughs) It is kind of an act of, you know, okay, I’m gonna do something that makes me uncomfortable in, in a way that, you know, adopting kids from Korea and putting them in spaces that make them uncomf- that could make them uncomfortable, you know?
(1:06:55) speaker_0:
(1:06:55) speaker_1: Right…. so I guess, yes, once a week may be, uh, not a good (laughs) once a-
(1:07:01) speaker_0: Yeah.
(1:07:01) speaker_1: … week compared to a lifetime. (laughs)
(1:07:02) speaker_0: Yeah. It’s not, it’s not exactly the same thing, but yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
(1:07:06) speaker_0: Well, Geoffrey, I, you know, when you’re, you’re talking about getting back into adoptee spaces or, um, getting back into some kind of activism, um, thank you so much for coming on the podcast ’cause this is definitely, you know, it- it- it- it helps other…
(1:07:23) speaker_0: It will help other adoptees. Um, p- it provides some more insight into your experiences.
(1:07:31) speaker_0: Um, and also hopefully, you know, I’m hoping that the experiences of, of, uh, queer adoptees become, you know, is more visible or that is, you know, we have more awareness and space to hear stories like, like yours.
(1:07:50) speaker_0: So I really appreciate you coming on.
(1:07:52) speaker_1: Well, thank you so much.
(1:07:53) speaker_1: And obviously part of the whole work of, you know, making ourselves known is the cultural production of, of things and building a culture that is a- is a adoptee culture.
(1:08:04) speaker_1: And so, yeah, thank you for doing the podcast. I was really excited to hear that there was such a thing.
(1:08:10) speaker_1: Um, and yeah, I really appreciate taking the time to talk and you asking me questions that I have not thought about in a long time. Um-
(1:08:19) speaker_0: (laughs)
(1:08:19) speaker_1: (laughs) But it was really, um, actually a great chance to sort of reconnect with a lot of things that, um, yeah, really went into my beginning as a, as a young person trying to find a place and a, a way to explain my- myself and my existence in the world.
(1:08:34) speaker_1: So, uh, I really appreciated it. Thank you.
(1:08:37) speaker_0: And Geoffrey, is, uh, are you open to if somebody wants to connect with you or, um…
(1:08:43) speaker_1: Oh, yeah. Um, yes, for sure. Um, definitely folks who are interested in KQTX but also just other adoptees about things or mixed race Koreans about things.
(1:08:53) speaker_1: Um, I’m definitely in a place of, uh, yeah, uh, mentorship or, uh, advice or connection and support. Um…
(1:09:04) speaker_0: How can they reach you?
(1:09:06) speaker_1: Uh, well, the best way would be either on my- uh, by email at G-E-O-F-F-R-E-Y @collectivestruggle.
(1:09:15) speaker_1: i- info, I-N-F-O, um, or on LinkedIn, um, with the name Geoffrey Winder, G-E-O-F-F-R-E-Y W-I-N-D-E-R. (instrumental music plays)
(1:09:37) speaker_0: Thank you so much, Geoffrey. I hope that we’ll meet in person one day. Thank you to all Patreon supporters who have helped keep this podcast going.
(1:09:47) speaker_0: You know who you are. Yooken Jun is our volunteer Korean translator. You can read her translations at adaptedpodcast.com. I’m Kaya MiLee.
(1:09:57) speaker_0: See you next time. (instrumental music plays)