Korean mixed-race adoptee Sarah Harris, 54, of Los Angeles, shares her story of visiting Korea and finding the place where she felt truly rooted.

Audio available July 5, 2024.

(0:00:05) speaker_0: Welcome to Adopted podcast. Season 7, episode 22 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:17) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was adopted from Korea.

(0:00:25) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our own adoptive families and society that only wants a feel-good story.

(0:00:36) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that. Please listen to our stories.

(0:00:41) speaker_1: I think that was the first time that many of us actually, or at least me personally, really felt anchored to a space on this globe.

(0:00:50) speaker_0: This next interview is with a Korean mixed-race adoptee.

(0:00:53) speaker_0: Being the product of an American military contractor and a Korean woman has brought up complex feelings for this next interviewee.

(0:01:02) speaker_0: Sarah Harris reflects on beliefs around belonging and identity and the imbalance of power in military camp towns. Now, here’s Sarah.

(0:01:19) speaker_1: My name is Sarah Harris. My Korean name, I believe is Kwon Doyoung. I am 54 years old, and I live in Los Angeles.

(0:01:31) speaker_0: Okay. So Sarah, what are your passions? Tell us a little bit about you.

(0:01:35) speaker_1: My passions are truly connecting with other people and also trying to figure out individually what their passions are, and then trying to help them start today on that journey to figure out how they can do this in their lives.

(0:01:51) speaker_1: I mean, some people have big goals, but I try to break it down into bite-sized steps for them so that they can start right away.

(0:01:57) speaker_0: Okay. So how long have you been doing this work, or how do you go about it? It sounds like you connect people?

(0:02:04) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, this is something that I’ve kind of found through the years that I wouldn’t call it an innate skill perhaps, but it’s just, it is, it’s a passion.

(0:02:15) speaker_1: I think it started probably when I used to work for a nonprofit and I was recruiting people for long-distance running events.

(0:02:23) speaker_1: You know, obviously, they show up to talk to me because they want to run this event or because they want to fundraise, but oftentimes, there was a deeper reason below that reason.

(0:02:32) speaker_1: And so, I would always try to figure out what that was so that I could make sure I could cater to that while they were on the team, and that way, it would be a better experience for them as well.

(0:02:42) speaker_1: So, I think that’s when I first realized that I had a little bit of a skill in that area and just a passion for it, and so then I’ve kind of carried it over.

(0:02:51) speaker_1: For a while, I had a group here in my hometown where I was meeting with a group of women and they all came to the table, they’re all working on different projects, or some hadn’t even started, and we would just get together and try to be each other’s cheerleaders, truly.

(0:03:06) speaker_1: Try to be that positive, creative space where people aren’t going, “Oh, I don’t know. That seems risky,” or whatever, you know?

(0:03:13) speaker_1: I mean, let’s break it down and figure out ways that you can start doing it right away.

(0:03:18) speaker_0: And you’re a Korean adoptee?

(0:03:21) speaker_1: I am a Korean adoptee, yes.

(0:03:23) speaker_0: How do you identify that experience?

(0:03:26) speaker_1: I think… I don’t know. It’s been (sighs)… it’s a situation that keeps unraveling, I feel like.

(0:03:32) speaker_1: And I don’t mean that necessarily in a negative way, but I think when I was younger, it was just this, I’m kind of envisioning a ball of yarn where it was all tightly wound together in a nice shape and I knew I was adopted, I’ve always known I was adopted, but I just didn’t really know exactly what that meant.

(0:03:51) speaker_1: So, I would go tell people when I met them or, or they would figure it out (laughs) and I would say, “Yes, I’m adopted from Korea,” but then it would just kind of fall on the floor.

(0:04:01) speaker_1: I didn’t exactly know what to do with it. I’m very late to trying to figure this out about myself.

(0:04:07) speaker_1: I didn’t start really diving into what it meant to be adopted until I was about 47, and I think ever since then, it feels like a constantly evolving thing, but I feel like it was a good time for me because I’m old enough to take the information that I get or the surprises that I find in stride because I’m a little bit older, I guess.

(0:04:28) speaker_1:

(0:04:28) speaker_0: You know, sometimes it’s, it’s just a matter of having the time, right? Or being in the right head space.

(0:04:35) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:04:37) speaker_0: So, you know, people can get involved with their careers or raising their kids or things that are more immediate, and then the adoption stuff can hit later.

(0:04:46) speaker_0:

(0:04:46) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:04:46) speaker_1: Yeah, I think there were a few times where I had been curious just to go visit Korea, not even to dive into anything, but I was like, you know, “I don’t know the language, it’s so far away.

(0:04:57) speaker_1: ” And like you said, I had small children, it just didn’t seem affordable at the time. So yeah, I had to put that off.

(0:05:04) speaker_0: And did you make it back to Korea?

(0:05:07) speaker_1: I did. I finally made it back in 2018 and I was really pleased with the group that I chose.

(0:05:14) speaker_1: I went with the Me in Korea Hapa Mosaic tour, and it was the perfect balance of a very personal experience as far as my adoption story goes, but also a little bit of cultural stuff mixed in.

(0:05:27) speaker_1: And I think they timed it well too because we definitely had some emotional days, but we also had a lot of fun days too.

(0:05:33) speaker_0: What was kind of your, I think, when you got there, is there a particular instance or memory that really sits with you?

(0:05:43) speaker_1: Sure.

(0:05:44) speaker_1: Yeah, honestly it was a lot of the stuff even just leading up to it, because they would, you know, they obviously ask for our adoption files, and they have a whole team of researchers on the back end trying to see how far they can go, possibly find any new information or more accurate information.

(0:06:02) speaker_1: Um, also because there’s a span of time between when I was turned in to an orphanage and then when I wound up at the other orphanage, which wound up sending me for adoption.

(0:06:12) speaker_1: So you know, there’s some blank areas in there that they tried to fill in, and I think that was what kind of blew me away leading up to the trip, is they’d contact me and say, “We found more information.

(0:06:23) speaker_1: It turns out that you were not just found in the street by a policeman and turned in to an orphanage,” like every other adoptee thinks they were.

(0:06:31) speaker_1: It turns out that a woman had turned me in to the orphanage, and so that was completely new information.

(0:06:37) speaker_1: During that time also, we had made the efforts to try to find my biological father, who at the time I had a feeling was an American GI because I am mixed race.

(0:06:47) speaker_1: And so we were hoping to find him to perhaps have more information on where my birth mother could be, and we did find him and that blew me away.

(0:06:57) speaker_1: Also the speed at which they figured out who he was based on a second cousin match that I had, that blew me away.

(0:07:03) speaker_1: It was interesting to me too, and I’m not still sure exactly why this happened, I still want to look into it, but I remember when they were asking me if I wanted to get a hanbok while I was there.

(0:07:16) speaker_1: I hope I’m saying that well. And at first I was like, “Well, I don’t know. Why would I need that?

(0:07:21) speaker_1: ” Because, I don’t know, I think just growing up, I didn’t feel Korean.

(0:07:26) speaker_1: But then when I got there and I got the hanbok, it was just the most beautiful thing and I absolutely love it now and I’m so glad that I did.

(0:07:35) speaker_1: And it was weird because it did totally make me emotional.

(0:07:37) speaker_1: When they first asked me I was like, “I don’t know why I would want this,” and I think that was just like a turning point in all of a sudden tapping into the Korean side of me.

(0:07:46) speaker_1:

(0:07:46) speaker_0: This is something I’ve wondered. So you’re, you’re mixed race, white and Korean?

(0:07:53) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:07:55) speaker_0: Um, did you feel growing up and even into your adulthood that you had less of a connection to Korea or a claim to identity?

(0:08:06) speaker_0: Or I mean claim to the, you know-

(0:08:09) speaker_1: Oh, yeah.

(0:08:09) speaker_0: … you’re part of the Korean diaspora?

(0:08:12) speaker_1: Yeah (laughs). Totally, yeah. I mean, truly, first of all, growing up when I was young, people didn’t even know where Korea was.

(0:08:18) speaker_1: People just called me Chinese because they knew I didn’t look white and they didn’t know what kind of Asian I was, and since I was kind of a blend anyway.

(0:08:27) speaker_1: So yeah, nobody knew where Korea was until one day I think I realized that, hey, all my toys are made in Korea, so at least I could claim a place even though I had no visual (laughs) for it.

(0:08:38) speaker_1: But then, yeah, I, I did not feel Korean at all. I was raised in a house that was primarily a Hungarian household, which I love.

(0:08:48) speaker_1: I mean, I loved the food, I loved my family, and it was a very comfortable place to land. And I loved the community that they had.

(0:08:57) speaker_1: But yeah, I did not feel Korean at all, and I remember the first… Even growing up, I didn’t have that many people in school who were Asian.

(0:09:06) speaker_1: (laughs) I think the first time I found another mixed race Asian, probably my first Asian at all, was in third grade and then I was only in that school for a year, but I mean, obviously, we became like fast friends.

(0:09:18) speaker_1: And even though I would go over to her house and I’d be like, “Well, this is a different situation than what I have at my house,” but part of me felt very comfortable instantly in their house.

(0:09:26) speaker_1: And then I kind of grew up through the years and every now and then there would be an Asian person in my class, but I could tell pretty quickly that I did not really fit in with them either.

(0:09:37) speaker_1: So I think my, my brain just kind of defaulted to Hungarian/white that I was brought up in. So yeah.

(0:09:45) speaker_1: I remember even going to college and I thought, “Okay, I’m in college now. I’m gonna try to embrace my Asian side.

(0:09:53) speaker_1: ” And I went to an Asian student mixer and I walked up the stairs and walked in and I saw everybody and I was like, “Oh, no, I don’t fit in (laughs) here at all.

(0:10:02) speaker_1: ” And I just turned around and left. I did not even walk through the door.

(0:10:05) speaker_0: Mm. Based on… Did you feel like just based on how you looked or-

(0:10:10) speaker_1: I think so.

(0:10:11) speaker_0: … just how you felt inside?

(0:10:12) speaker_1: Yeah, I think the way I felt, the way I looked, and I could just, I don’t know, I felt like the conversations that I could hear.

(0:10:20) speaker_1: I’m sure it was part of just college insecurities to begin with, but it was funny because that same feeling came up the first time I went to a Korean adoptee mixer up in San Francisco.

(0:10:31) speaker_1: It was 2017 (clears throat) and it was the AKA/IKAA (laughs) mixer in San Francisco, and I walked in the door and it was the same situation where I was greeted with a visual of all these Asian people in one room and for a split second I was like, “Oh my gosh, this was a mistake.

(0:10:49) speaker_1: ” But then I had to tell myself, “No, all of these people are just like me where the outside doesn’t necessarily match with the inside.

(0:10:58) speaker_1: ” And so I just told myself I would walk around the room one time at least and find a comfortable place to sit down and fortunately I did.

(0:11:07) speaker_1: I found a table of some really warm people and had a great weekend.

(0:11:11) speaker_1: And honestly, that’s the beginning of me going and starting my journey to figure out myself.

(0:11:18) speaker_0: And did you s- often just pass for white do you think?

(0:11:23) speaker_1: It’s funny, um, (sighs) maybe, because I mean we did have some…

(0:11:27) speaker_1: I’m thinking in particular of my elementary school where there really wasn’t diversity at all, but there were like different shades of white if you want to call it that.

(0:11:38) speaker_1: Like there were people from all different parts.

(0:11:40) speaker_1: Like I had some friends that were Italian that were definitely darker and so I was like, “Well, maybe I’m part Italian,” ’cause I, I didn’t know what the other half (laughs) of my, myself was.

(0:11:48) speaker_1:

(0:11:48) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:11:49) speaker_1: Um, so that was kind of a lifelong game until very recently where I’d just try to guess what my other half was.

(0:11:55) speaker_1: But yeah, I guess I did pass as white back then especially one year I had pneumonia so I was really pale, you couldn’t tell that I had a little bit darker skin and people just thought I was-…

(0:12:06) speaker_1: Caucasian, yes. And it’s funny too because I do have two sisters. One is full Korean, she’s an adoptee as well. I have one sister that is completely Caucasian.

(0:12:16) speaker_1: And we were so alike behaviorally growing up that when her friends would get together with us, if they hadn’t met me before, they just automatically, t- they were like, “Yes, you guys are absolutely sisters,” and they didn’t realize that I was adopted.

(0:12:31) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:12:32) speaker_0: Which, with your, with your full youngster-

(0:12:35) speaker_1: With the younger sister, yes, yes.

(0:12:36) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:12:36) speaker_1: I was like, “That’s really funny but okay.” (laughs)

(0:12:39) speaker_0: Okay, so in your family makeup, people might assume that your, only your one sister was adopted?

(0:12:45) speaker_1: Right.

(0:12:46) speaker_0: Okay, okay.

(0:12:47) speaker_0: That must’ve been like, hmm, yeah, like, that feeling of belonging, which is something that adoptees talk about all the time is where do they belong?

(0:12:59) speaker_1: Right.

(0:13:00) speaker_0: And, um, I mean everybody’s experiences is different, but I wonder if that belonging piece…

(0:13:06) speaker_0: I mean, it just must’ve been, I, I’m not gonna say more or less complicated as everyone’s, but just it’s its own thing, right? Just…

(0:13:15) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean I definitely, (sighs) between being adopted and then we actually, I changed schools a lot until I got to high school.

(0:13:25) speaker_1: And between those two things, I hated, like it was the worst first day every year (laughs) ’cause I just, I think moving around, um, I was shy to begin with, and then having to show up and constantly explain who I was and, and when I didn’t even understand a lot of it myself, it just made it a difficult thing.

(0:13:44) speaker_1: So yeah, I didn’t belong really anywhere.

(0:13:47) speaker_1: I would have like a close friend or two and just kinda hold onto them for the year and then see if I’d be there again the next year or not.

(0:13:56) speaker_1: But then when I got to high school, I was able to stay there longer, so I definitely tried to join groups and teams and clubs and that kinda thing so I could find a place to belong and also just tried to expand my group of people that I would have things in common.

(0:14:13) speaker_1:

(0:14:13) speaker_0: And where did you grow up, Sarah?

(0:14:15) speaker_1: I grew up in San Diego for the most part. I mean, I did grow up in Baltimore until I was eight years old, but then yes, we moved to San Diego.

(0:14:23) speaker_1: We lived in, I guess it’s directly above the airport, in Presidio Park first, and then we moved to North County San Diego, and they’re very different to be honest ’cause one felt more almost city adjacent and the other one was out in the boonies, (laughs) but both were really great experiences overall.

(0:14:41) speaker_1:

(0:14:41) speaker_0: And so, like, being in Southern California and maybe you felt racially ambiguous sometimes or you could, I don’t know, some people call shape-shifting, but you could kind of probably fit in with a lot of different groups that you could select every time you’d move schools.

(0:14:59) speaker_0: Did you feel… I mean, in one sense, there probably were a lot of mixed race folks.

(0:15:06) speaker_1: To be honest, not in the first place in San Diego where I lived.

(0:15:11) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:15:11) speaker_1: There were not, but, um, but yeah, when I moved to Poway, there were definitely more Asian families, and so even though I didn’t totally feel like I felt in with them, at least I felt like, okay, there’s a wider variety of people here.

(0:15:24) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:15:24) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:25) speaker_1: But yeah, I mean, that’s one thing I love actually is that now in my kids’ generation, most of their friends are mixed race something, and it’s not all Asian, but I mean, they grew up with a group of people where everybody was accepted no matter what they look like.

(0:15:40) speaker_1:

(0:15:40) speaker_0: And being in LA now, right? Uh, t-

(0:15:43) speaker_1: Right, yeah, that makes a difference.

(0:15:44) speaker_0: … that’s right at home?

(0:15:45) speaker_1: Yeah, I mean that’s been a thing that’s been really helpful for me.

(0:15:48) speaker_1: I mean, San Diego does offer a lot of culture, but, you know, before I drove, I didn’t have as much access to it.

(0:15:54) speaker_1: And plus, I think at that age, I didn’t appreciate it as much. I was more focused on fitting in than trying to figure out what made me unique.

(0:16:02) speaker_1: But yeah, up here in Los Angeles, there’s just so many more opportunities.

(0:16:06) speaker_1: There’s Koreatown, one of the largest ones that I think exists, but so many cultures. I mean, that’s one thing I love of…

(0:16:12) speaker_1: My friends and I have a dining club where we eat our way around the world without leaving Los Angeles.

(0:16:18) speaker_0: Oh, that’s great. So you pick different countries or different cuisines?

(0:16:21) speaker_1: Exactly, exactly. It’s been amazing.

(0:16:23) speaker_0: What’s the last cuisine you ate in, in your dining club?

(0:16:27) speaker_1: I believe it wa- it was either Indonesian or Malaysian, I don’t remember, but it was a different variation of Asian food than I’d had before, and it was amazing.

(0:16:35) speaker_1:

(0:16:35) speaker_0: And what’s the best Korean place you think in LA?

(0:16:38) speaker_1: (laughs) That’s tough. I don’t know if I’m a great judge of that. Chosun Galbi, I believe is a good one, uh, we used to go to that one actually.

(0:16:46) speaker_1: I think it might be one of my favorites too because it was one that the Los Angeles Adoptee Club would go to for dinner, so it’s, you know, it’s a comfortable place for that reason as well.

(0:16:56) speaker_1: Um, I have to think. There’s another one that I’m totally seeing in my head that I can’t remember what the name is and it’s on the Miracle Mile.

(0:17:03) speaker_1: I believe it starts with a G. I’ll think of it by (laughs) midnight tonight. (laughs)

(0:17:08) speaker_0: And so let’s go back to the Hapa Tour. So you, um, you sign up for this tour, and then suddenly you’re flung with maybe about 20 or so-

(0:17:17) speaker_1: Yeah, like three. Mm-hmm.

(0:17:18) speaker_0: … other, other mixed race Koreans. How did that feel?

(0:17:21) speaker_1: It felt amazing.

(0:17:22) speaker_1: I think at first my brain was totally on trying to figure out who everybody was and what their mixes were (laughs) and that kinda thing, and I mean, everybody was really open as far as explaining if they knew what their mixes were, but yeah, it was an interesting situation because they actually have two different tours.

(0:17:41) speaker_1: They have the Mosaic Tour and the Hapa Mosaic Tour, and they purposefully make ours a little bit different because the history of the mixed race Koreans is different than the full race Koreans.

(0:17:51) speaker_1: And so, for example, I believe ours, instead of going and spending time in the orphanage, we actually get to spend a day in the camp towns that are outside of the US military bases in Korea, and these are kind of like little shanty Las Vegas towns that they would build for the US soldiers who don’t really speak much of the language to go out and have entertainment.

(0:18:13) speaker_1: So I mean, it was…It was dinner clubs, restaurants. There were also laundry, though, and markets and all that kind of stuff.

(0:18:20) speaker_1: But, you know, I mean, most of us mixed race come from that situation where the US military guys, or other countries, I guess, were then intermingling with (laughs) the Korean women.

(0:18:33) speaker_1: So we got the opportunity to actually walk through…

(0:18:36) speaker_1: It’s a camptown now that was turned into an art district, but then we also walked through an actual military base.

(0:18:42) speaker_1: So we had that feeling of walking next to those huge walls and the barbed wire on top, and I think that was the first time that many of us actually, or at least me personally, really felt anchored to a space on this globe.

(0:18:56) speaker_1: Like, okay, this is kind of where I come from. So, that was fascinating.

(0:19:02) speaker_0: Yeah, can you talk more about that? Did you relate to others on the tour?

(0:19:07) speaker_0: Were more people also, kind of, never maybe felt permission to claim Korean as part of their background?

(0:19:14) speaker_1: I think so. And it, it definitely depends on how Korean people looked. One of our mentors on the trip, I remember looking at her and she looked very similar.

(0:19:26) speaker_1: Like, she could have been one of the Brady kids, except she had slightly darker hair.

(0:19:30) speaker_1: But then she spoke perfectly fluent Korean, and I was like, “How is this possible?” Like, “Did she learn?

(0:19:35) speaker_1: ” And no, she had actually been adopted later in life from Korea, but she did not look Korean at all.

(0:19:41) speaker_1: But then there are others that looked very Korean, or there are some that don’t look Korean but they look more African American, and so they were able to fit into that community.

(0:19:50) speaker_1: So I think it just depended on the blend and also the family that they’re raised, and that makes a big difference as well.

(0:19:56) speaker_0: And were you on the younger side of the Hapa tour? Were you on-

(0:20:01) speaker_1: Oh, in the group.

(0:20:02) speaker_0: Were you one of the younger…

(0:20:03) speaker_1: I was probably, (sighs) I was probably right in the middle. I think I was probably right in the middle.

(0:20:09) speaker_0: Okay, okay.

(0:20:09) speaker_1: I think nowadays, I probably lean towards the older side of things. But yeah, on the tour it was definitely, I was more in the middle.

(0:20:17) speaker_0: And did you feel that growing up and into, you know, when I say growing up, but also, like, through your adulthood, did you feel stigmatized by being a product of the camptowns?

(0:20:29) speaker_0:

(0:20:29) speaker_1: I think, (sighs) because at the time I didn’t understand the full picture of what it was.

(0:20:37) speaker_1: But yeah, I think two definite examples where, where the stigma came and hit me when I didn’t even realize…

(0:20:43) speaker_1: Actually, I’ll just give you the one that happened at work one day.

(0:20:48) speaker_1: So, um, this is probably when I was in my, oh gosh, early 30s, and I found a coworker in the bathroom.

(0:20:56) speaker_1: She’s crying and her husband had decided to recently re-enlist, and he was being sent to Korea. And I go, “Oh, I’m Korean. Yeah, I’m mixed Korean.

(0:21:05) speaker_1: I’m from there.” And she immediately (laughs) started bawling even louder, and I was like, “What is this about?” She’s like…

(0:21:12) speaker_1: I think she was concerned that he would just go over there, because it has the reputation of just being, like, this town filled with debauchery when they’re there.

(0:21:22) speaker_1: And she was, just knew in her heart that he was gonna go over there and immediately produce a child that looked like me. And I was like, “Okay.

(0:21:31) speaker_1: ” (laughs) Like, I didn’t know exactly where that came from, but I didn’t have-

(0:21:34) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:21:35) speaker_1: … the tools to then try to counter it either. So I just kind of absorbed it. But, yeah.

(0:21:40) speaker_1: And I mean, there have been other times where people had said to me, like, “Oh, well aren’t you glad you were adopted because you were saved from being a prostitute?

(0:21:47) speaker_1: ” And I’m like, “I’m not sure if that was my original life plan, but if that’s what you think that okay.” But it’s just, yeah, I-

(0:21:56) speaker_0: Like somehow you, like you were the product of some seedy or-

(0:21:59) speaker_1: Exactly.

(0:22:00) speaker_0: … um, illegal or… (laughs)

(0:22:03) speaker_1: Yeah, everyone just assumes that the only thing that’s over there are prostitutes.

(0:22:08) speaker_1: And, I mean, that’s kind of part of my later life goal now, now that I’ve been there and seen what it was and met some of the women that worked there, but also learning the rest of the culture.

(0:22:20) speaker_1: I mean, it was an economic center also, in a time where Korea was very much trying to rebuild.

(0:22:26) speaker_1: So the people that worked there, that had their businesses in the camptowns, actually did pretty well compared to the ones that might be farther out in the country or whatever.

(0:22:35) speaker_1: So that’s my goal now, is to try to clarify what they really were.

(0:22:39) speaker_1: Because I think also, I mean, the fact that that reputation came over here and followed a lot of the women who were in legitimate relationships and came over here with their husbands and then were totally ostracized from communities here, it was all because of that as well.

(0:22:55) speaker_1: And I feel like they are owed their own piece of history and to be able to claim it for themselves, and not just shameful history though.

(0:23:03) speaker_1: Like, everybody’s got stories. I think every family, not just Korean ones, of how they came here from other countries, and they weren’t all pretty.

(0:23:11) speaker_1: But I think that, you know, other people are allowed to own their history, and I don’t think the camptown women have been able to yet.

(0:23:18) speaker_0: And that, and also, you know, sex work can be legitimate work.

(0:23:22) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, (sighs) I think back then, and I, I’m kind of guessing, summarizing based on some things that I’ve read.

(0:23:30) speaker_1: I mean, there are definitely experts on this topic better than I am.

(0:23:34) speaker_1: But I feel like at the time, again, while the country was rebuilding and trying to recover after the war, that, you know, a lot of the men, they were either gone or injured or whatever, and so suddenly there were other people in the family that had to take responsibility to try to keep the family going.

(0:23:52) speaker_1: And I know that people had to pay to go to school, and I mean, just things like that. So who’s gonna come up with that money?

(0:23:59) speaker_1: And so I think, you know, women had to go figure out ways to do this.

(0:24:04) speaker_1: And I don’t think everybody’s entry into that profession was maybe a positive and completely their own decision.

(0:24:11) speaker_1: But I think at the same time, it was a legitimate thing that people had to do to keep going.

(0:24:17) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.Exactly.

(0:24:18) speaker_0: And, um, these camp towns and, you know, women, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were recruited and told that, to work in these industries that serviced American GIs, that they were doing a national service or national good for-

(0:24:33) speaker_1: Yes, I’ve read that as well. Yes, that they’re like ambassadors, goodwill ambassadors.

(0:24:37) speaker_0: Right.

(0:24:38) speaker_0: So, like, they’re part of this nationwide, you know, this national effort of security and globalization and, and with Americans, you know, uh, binational treaties, (laughs) you know?

(0:24:49) speaker_0: Or bi- or I, I don’t know if it was a treaty, but binational agreements, bilateral agreements.

(0:24:54) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:24:55) speaker_1: Yeah, I’m, I’m actually loving the time that we’re in right now, and I feel like my unraveling, if you wanna call it, (laughs) has been timed really well with some researchers who are really looking into the history and kind of unraveling that kind of stuff.

(0:25:09) speaker_1: Like, I’m sure you heard Yuri Dulin at the conference in Chicago-

(0:25:14) speaker_0: Yes, fantastic.

(0:25:15) speaker_1: … read his book, yeah, about the first AmerAsians. And, um, it was just such an eye-opening book for me, (laughs) all the different…

(0:25:22) speaker_1: And I haven’t even finished the whole thing, but even just from the very first few pages, I’m like, “Wow, this is a completely different way to look at it.

(0:25:29) speaker_1: ” And, and I’m so grateful to be in a time where, number one, I’m open to learning that information and that people are caring enough to look for it to really rewrite history.

(0:25:40) speaker_1:

(0:25:40) speaker_0: What are the camp towns like today?

(0:25:43) speaker_1: Well, I mean, I, I think that some still might exist, although on a much smaller level.

(0:25:48) speaker_1: The one that we had gone to, and I wish I knew the name off the top of my head, but they had turned it into an artist colony, which I thought was really beautiful.

(0:25:57) speaker_1: But it was so cool because they did have one, kind of like a resale or consignment shop right outside the gates, and it was all, like, just old military memorabilia and stuff, and I was like, “Oh, I wish I would have had time to walk through that store and just see things from, you know, Korean and American cultures in that store.

(0:26:15) speaker_1: ” But yeah, it was, it was turned into a very peaceful place, and that was nice.

(0:26:20) speaker_0: Was that trip transformative for you?

(0:26:24) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:26:25) speaker_1: Yeah, I think I mentioned in that one point where we were walking through the camp towns, and I think I finally felt my place, or I guess my origin point.

(0:26:36) speaker_1: And I, I was just kind of in the back of the crowd watching them walk through this town, and I was like, “This is like a little piece of walking history.

(0:26:42) speaker_1: ” Because, I mean, also the adoption, I don’t wanna call it industry, but movement or whatever (laughs) we wanna call it, it’s kind of a contained thing.

(0:26:51) speaker_1: Like, it started in the mid ’50s.

(0:26:54) speaker_1: I mean, I’m sure it, it was in existence maybe before, but I, I think as an industry, it really popped up with the Holts in the ’50s, and then it’s kind of slowed down since the ’80s after the Olympics.

(0:27:06) speaker_1: And so it’s kind of like we’re this contained little piece of history, and here we are walking through the streets, almost reclaiming them in a way.

(0:27:14) speaker_1: And to me, that was really powerful. The trip was also very powerful, though, because I did learn a little bit of new information.

(0:27:21) speaker_1: So when we went to the orphanage, I got to have a day where they gave me a ticket and popped me onto a bullet train with two other gals that were also from Busan, and so we rode the train down there.

(0:27:33) speaker_1: We got to go to my orphanage where I was turned in and see the paperwork from the day I was turned in.

(0:27:38) speaker_1: Because I had also had a question if I was turned in with anybody else, which it doesn’t appear that I was.

(0:27:43) speaker_1: But they did find on there, there was the name of the person that turned me in.

(0:27:48) speaker_1: There was an address that they put on the paperwork, which, you know, take me with a grain of salt every information I find (laughs) because it might not have been a real address.

(0:27:56) speaker_1: But what happened was, so two of us were traveling together.

(0:28:00) speaker_1: We went to both of our orphanages, and then the third gal, she went off ’cause she actually was in reunion with her family, so she was having a different day.

(0:28:08) speaker_1: But before we were then all going to meet up again and ride the train back to where the rest of the group was, um, we were driving down a road, and it was just a busy, I guess, freeway for them, and the driver, who was our translator, pulled up off the road, and I was like, “Oh, where are we going?

(0:28:23) speaker_1: ” And he’s like, “Well, I wanted to try to find that address that was in your file.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s really amazing.

(0:28:29) speaker_1: ” Because honestly, like, as soon as he said that, I had just been having a moment where I was like, “I have an address, and now I’m leaving Korea, and I don’t know (laughs) what to do.

(0:28:37) speaker_1: ” It’s almost like he read my mind.

(0:28:39) speaker_1: So he pulled up on this street, and the first few buildings were there, and then all of a sudden, we keep going up this road, and the whole neighborhood had been flattened.

(0:28:49) speaker_1: So they’re basically… It looked like a bomb had gone off, but that’s just their construction zone. Like, they don’t put fences around it.

(0:28:57) speaker_1: (laughs) So we pull up, and all of a sudden, like, everything is flattened, and I guess they’re flattening everything in that area to put high-rises in.

(0:29:05) speaker_1: But I was glad to at least see the street with the mix of the old buildings and then the demolition.

(0:29:11) speaker_1: So at least, I don’t know, in a way, I could kind of just see that address, even though I don’t exactly know which door would have been applicable to my history, if any.

(0:29:21) speaker_1: But because, if I would have gone back when the high-rises were there, I would have been like, “No, this doesn’t fit my narrative because these are way too new.

(0:29:28) speaker_1: ” (laughs) So I would have had to dig through blacktop to get to the history underneath, which would have been impossible.

(0:29:34) speaker_1: So it was really cool that he did that.

(0:29:36) speaker_0: Yeah, it’s kind of, um… It can be unsettling, right? You go back and everything’s changed, or your orphanage is closed, or you know-

(0:29:45) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:29:45) speaker_0: … that your history is erased.

(0:29:47) speaker_1: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, definitely. It was ironic though.

(0:29:50) speaker_1: Okay, the person I was with, we went to her orphanage, and she was a little bit older than me, and she even had a piece of paper that proved that she was in the orphanage, but they had no history on her.

(0:30:02) speaker_1: So they said, “Well, here’s some photo albums from those days. You can look through and see if you can find yourself in them.

(0:30:08) speaker_1: ” And so we spent some time doing that.

(0:30:10) speaker_1: That was not her first trip to Korea, but she was hoping that maybe something would come of it, just since she had the extra help with research.

(0:30:19) speaker_1: But we left there that day just going, “Well, we did as much as we could, but there’s nothing else that she could do.

(0:30:26) speaker_1: ” Ironically, later, she did have some big developments in her case many years later. And I don’t want to share her story (laughs).

(0:30:32) speaker_1: I’ll let her share it eventually, but it did wind up in reunion. I’ll just say that.

(0:30:37) speaker_0: I’m curious, Sara, what the consensus was in your… On that Hapa Mosaic tour. Through DNA, had most found at least their father’s side?

(0:30:47) speaker_1: No, you know, I think there was a wide variety.

(0:30:50) speaker_1: There were people who had found family before and already been in reunion, and people who had no idea, who were really just starting.

(0:30:57) speaker_1: I think, you know, obviously, the team tried to get them as much information as they could before the trip.

(0:31:02) speaker_1: But yeah, no, I mean, there was a very wide variety. Some people had just found out.

(0:31:06) speaker_1: I mean, some people were adults older than me, who had just found out they were adopted, period. It was a really wide group.

(0:31:15) speaker_0: So, would it be safe to say that some people were going through a state of shock being there?

(0:31:21) speaker_1: I think we all were (laughs).

(0:31:24) speaker_0: Yeah.

(0:31:24) speaker_1: I think…

(0:31:24) speaker_1: And that was one great thing about the tour, is even though the first time we saw on the itinerary that we were going to have group sessions or whatever, we were like, “Oh, my gosh, what’s that gonna be about?

(0:31:33) speaker_1: ” But honestly, it was really helpful to have that space in between the different things that we did, to just be there for each other, to be able to share what emotions they were experiencing, if people wanted to.

(0:31:47) speaker_1: And then, of course, just to be there for each other as well.

(0:31:50) speaker_1: It was interesting though, because one gentleman said, and it’s very true, “Being an adoptee is like being those kids in Narnia.

(0:31:57) speaker_1: We were sent from Korea, we went through a door to a country where we grew up, and then as soon as we come back through the wardrobe to Korea, we’re suddenly the same age as when we left.

(0:32:08) speaker_1: ” And it was fascinating actually, that that did play out fairly accurately (laughs).

(0:32:13) speaker_1: And like, for me, I mean, I left before I could speak or anything, but that was also how I existed on the tour.

(0:32:19) speaker_1: A lot of times, I was just sitting and observing and watching and listening, and not really speaking much, because that’s just… I don’t know.

(0:32:27) speaker_1: That was me getting back in the flow with Korea, I guess.

(0:32:30) speaker_0: I mean, it’s almost like you’re on this sensory tour, right? And maybe childlike. You’re back tasting, smelling, seeing, hearing.

(0:32:38) speaker_1: I love that you picked up on that, yes (laughs).

(0:32:42) speaker_0: And… Yeah, and transported back to, you know, age three, four, five, eight, whatever age-

(0:32:48) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:32:48) speaker_0: … you went through that door in Narnia that you said. That’s a very great analogy.

(0:32:52) speaker_1: Yeah, I was only eight months old. But it’s true.

(0:32:55) speaker_1: Like, I kind of went into the trip wondering if suddenly I would eat something and all these memories would flood back, or I would hear something or smell something or…

(0:33:04) speaker_1: So, it was a very sensory experience, just trying to take it all in and seeing how m- my body would respond to it.

(0:33:10) speaker_1: I tried to go into the trip overall without any expectations, just showing up, being present every day and, and just seeing what would happen, and I didn’t have any of those amazing aha moments.

(0:33:22) speaker_1: But it was still a great experience to be able to, yes, just kind of dive in and feel…

(0:33:27) speaker_1: I think the other thing that was a big issue, for me anyway, was the concern that the Koreans may not accept us because we are mixed race.

(0:33:36) speaker_1: But I didn’t feel any of that. Wherever we went, we were always feeling welcome.

(0:33:40) speaker_1: Even one day where I think a bunch of people were getting eyeglasses, and so I was just kind of wandering the market outside, and I think it was the end of the trip, so by that time, I had gotten a little more confident in flinging around, “Annyeonghaseyo,” and (laughs) I totally just mutilated it there.

(0:33:56) speaker_1: But I felt more confident in, like, throwing out a Korean word that I knew and waiting for a response, and nobody would…

(0:34:01) speaker_1: Even in the market, would look at me and be like, “Oh, no, we’re not talking to you.” You know? Like, it, it was a very welcome place.

(0:34:07) speaker_0: Do you think people… I mean, it’s hard to know what people thought. Do, do you think the local-

(0:34:12) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:34:13) speaker_0: … Koreans understood-

(0:34:14) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:34:14) speaker_0: … that you were Korean or you were coming back, or you’re an adoptee?

(0:34:17) speaker_1: Well, I mean, I don’t think they knew all of that, unless we explained it.

(0:34:22) speaker_0: Unless it was explained, right.

(0:34:23) speaker_1: I mean, there were definitely some set up events where people knew that we were a group of adoptees hoping to come back and embrace our culture, and so, you know, they treated us more like that.

(0:34:32) speaker_1: But even on the street, I just wasn’t sure if I would see, like, if I said hello to them, would they smile or would there be something behind that smile that I’d be able to detect where they’d be like, “Oh.

(0:34:42) speaker_1: ” You know? (laughs)

(0:34:43) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:34:43) speaker_1: But I didn’t feel that at all. I felt everybody was very friendly.

(0:34:47) speaker_0: When you were out and about in Korea, maybe away from your tour group, did you spot other GIs there or mili- US military?

(0:34:56) speaker_1: I didn’t notice them in most of the places that we went, because we were more in, I guess… Well, I guess maybe I just wasn’t looking for them as much.

(0:35:05) speaker_1: When we went to… Not even the camptown, to be honest.

(0:35:09) speaker_1: But we spent a day at the Sunlit Sisters Center, I believe it’s called, and that’s basically a community center for women who have retired from working in the camptowns.

(0:35:21) speaker_1: And that is actually located in an area that I think is still by a military base, and so there, we did see…

(0:35:29) speaker_1: I think when we were leaving, we saw a GI coming out of his apartment, and there was a Korean woman still inside.

(0:35:35) speaker_1: And I mean, I don’t know their relationship at all, but I was like, “Hmm, that’s exactly it right there (laughs) in front of my eyes.” So…

(0:35:43) speaker_0: I mean, how did that make you feel when you saw that? Did you have any feelings?

(0:35:47) speaker_1: I think at first, I was just surprised, not that I expected to not be around anymore, but I think because, as far as my mental history, my own history pushes it so far back to my infanthood, that it didn’t make sense that, “Why is it still here now?

(0:36:00) speaker_1: ” But of course it should be. We still have a military presence in Korea.

(0:36:04) speaker_0: And people are having relationships. I mean, it’s, um…

(0:36:07) speaker_1: Absolutely, yeah, and that’s the thing even back then. There were definitely people in legitimate…

(0:36:12) speaker_1: Like, they had fallen in love, and they just happened to be from different cultures.

(0:36:16) speaker_0: I just wondered if it brought up something for you….

(0:36:20) speaker_0: to see other GIs in Korea, um, even out in Itaewon or with the buzz cut, and you can, even if they’re in street clothes, you know, just to see if it brings up anything for you.

(0:36:32) speaker_0:

(0:36:32) speaker_1: To be honest, I didn’t notice them much in other places, because I think I was so focused on just soaking in the Korean culture.

(0:36:40) speaker_1: And especially, like right, actually, it was before I was even aware of the Hallyu wave.

(0:36:46) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:36:47) speaker_1: It was funny, because we saw some cards with like BTS and stuff on it, but I had no idea what that was at the time.

(0:36:52) speaker_1: (laughs) And then I come back to America, and suddenly my daughter’s like, “Oh, yeah, let me tell you.” (laughs) You know?

(0:36:58) speaker_1: I think the rest of the time, I was just so focused on trying to absorb as much of Korea that I wasn’t really even focused on most of the faces.

(0:37:06) speaker_0: When I lived in Korea, the military base was right still in Yongsan, right in the middle of Seoul, actually.

(0:37:13) speaker_0: And you know, there’s that wall that went around it, and the sign said, “Property of US-“

(0:37:18) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:37:19) speaker_0: … um, “military.

(0:37:20) speaker_0: ” And I just found that so shocking at that time when I was there, so shocking that, wow, it felt like we were colonizing, you know, a colonizer of Korea.

(0:37:29) speaker_0: And of course, we were invited there, but, you know, I would say it did give me some reservations about just US military presence in, in other countries as occupiers.

(0:37:41) speaker_0: And I wonder how you feel about that.

(0:37:44) speaker_1: It’s true, I mean, I love that you noticed the wall, for sure.

(0:37:48) speaker_1: I noticed that as well, because the thing I love about Korea is that there’s the old, old and the very, very modern, and sometimes the old is still just holding strong, wedged in between these super tall modern buildings.

(0:38:02) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:38:03) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:38:03) speaker_1: But then you’ve got, like you said, that imposing huge gray wall, probably with barbed wire, I’m guessing, and that’s just such a different feel, and I’m like, “That doesn’t feel comfortable at all.

(0:38:14) speaker_1: ” It doesn’t blend with either the old or the new.

(0:38:18) speaker_1: It’s just there, and taking up this space, and making its presence known, and I think more than anything, it really made me curious about, yeah, what do Koreans think about…

(0:38:29) speaker_1: I think it had me thinking about their side of things, and I think that was the thing too, like it was the intersection of like here, I’ve grown up in America, and I came from Korea, but it really gave me that visual that, “Wow, I’m actually a part of both histories.

(0:38:44) speaker_1: ” So here I felt like I had nowhere to land, but I’m actually a part of both.

(0:38:48) speaker_1: And I think just on the trip, you know, I was kind of processing things from a more personal view, but I definitely had that feeling too, where I was like, “I wonder what they really think over here of having the US here for so long.

(0:39:01) speaker_1: “

(0:39:01) speaker_0: Yeah, I mean, all of us are for, you know, the historical reasons in Korea, historical, cultural, for a lot of those reasons we’re here in America, or we were-

(0:39:11) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:39:11) speaker_0: … brought here.

(0:39:13) speaker_0: But in the case of PAPA adoptees or mixed race adoptees, there’s even more, you know, because of your parents and just the, the military piece of it that it must be even more kind of visceral, that connection to history, even from, you know, the closeup view of just, “These were my parents,” and, (laughs) and to go to the macro view of what that all means with the reason that, you know, your father was there.

(0:39:38) speaker_0:

(0:39:38) speaker_1: Yeah, and I think for me, because growing up, I never really was interested in history, and I think walking through Korea also suddenly sparked this realization that what we learned in books is probably not even half the story.

(0:39:55) speaker_1: (laughs) It’s like just barely scraping the surface, which I get. It’s, it’s a difficult task to do, but it was very skewed.

(0:40:01) speaker_0: History can be violent too, right?

(0:40:03) speaker_1: Very violent, very skewed, b- ’cause you know it’s gonna be written to favor whoever wrote the book, so… (laughs)

(0:40:09) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:40:10) speaker_1: But yeah, and then walking through it suddenly made me fascinated just by people’s journeys in general.

(0:40:16) speaker_1: I think starting with when I did DNA, that made me a little bit fascinated as well because sometimes with DNA it’s not always a very pinpoint accurate thing saying, “You’re from here,” it’s just saying, “We find a lot of the similar DNA from these regions.

(0:40:32) speaker_1: ” So sometimes when I log on, it’ll shift a little bit. Like, one day I’m 50% Korean.

(0:40:38) speaker_1: One day I’m 48% Korean and 3% Japanese or Chinese or, or whatever, and I’ve heard that because of the migration of people, that is a tendency that will show up, that maybe we’ve got some of those other bloods in our Korean blood.

(0:40:52) speaker_1: Um, and so that made me really fascinated as far as the migration of people, but it is also partially because of these wars and the history that went on, and yeah, I think it just made it more personal to me, where I’m now really fascinated by history, but only hearing it through people’s stories.

(0:41:09) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:41:10) speaker_0: So, you’ve done your DNA. What are your ancestries?

(0:41:13) speaker_1: So, I am 50% Korean, no surprise, but it was funny ’cause I always thought I must be part German, because I kind of have bigger bones, or I thought I must be Spanish because I love everything about Spanish culture, fashion, music, and I’m neither of those, so I’m actually mostly Polish.

(0:41:30) speaker_1: I think I’m a little bit of French-English in there.

(0:41:33) speaker_1: Um, yeah, it was interesting though because since I grew up in a Hungarian household, and Poland is pretty close, and they have a lot of similarities, I thought that was kind of fun.

(0:41:42) speaker_1:

(0:41:42) speaker_0: The kielbasa.

(0:41:44) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:41:45) speaker_0: (laughs) Um, how tall are you, Sara? You’re, you’re taller, aren’t you?

(0:41:50) speaker_1: No, well, okay, I’m the tallest in my family of three girls by like a quarter inch, but I’m really only 5’3 and three quarters tall.

(0:41:58) speaker_0: You’re really 5’3? For some reason, you just seem, I just remember you being a lot taller-

(0:42:04) speaker_1: Oh, thank you. (laughs)

(0:42:04) speaker_0: … than myself, but… (laughs)

(0:42:06) speaker_1: I’ll take it.

(0:42:07) speaker_0: Maybe it was a six-inch heel you were wearing.

(0:42:09) speaker_1: (laughs) Yeah, nobody’s ever said that to me, so I will take it. (laughs)

(0:42:12) speaker_0: Okay. And so, can I ask about your birth search? What have you found?

(0:42:17) speaker_1: Yeah. So first, I had started doing my DNA in 2015, and it was funny because it was a result of my daughter.

(0:42:24) speaker_1: She had to do a project for school where she had to put all the flags of the different countries she was from on the front of this binder, and, um, she didn’t know a quarter of it because of me.

(0:42:34) speaker_1: Well, and then honestly, too, her father’s father was also adopted so we aren’t 100% sure of his.

(0:42:42) speaker_1: So I decided to go ahead and take a test just to find what the other half was, and so that way, she could complete her project, and that just kind of drew me in a little bit because, you know, you open this can of worms and all of a sudden, you’ve got hundreds of cousins that you never knew you had.

(0:42:58) speaker_1: (laughs) And that was an amazing journey.

(0:43:00) speaker_1: But none of them were closer than, like, second cousins or something, and at the time, I just didn’t know what to do with that.

(0:43:06) speaker_1: So then, I happened to meet somebody from Ancestry and I had told them that I already had second cousins from my Family Tree DNA test, and they said, “Oh.

(0:43:14) speaker_1: Well, if you have second cousins with them, you should test with ours because we have an even bigger database.” And so they gave me a test and I tested.

(0:43:21) speaker_1: Same thing, second cousins or more.

(0:43:23) speaker_0: Was the second cousins with white folks or with Koreans?

(0:43:27) speaker_1: It was interesting because it was a person with a Japanese last name, but they were white, so I was like, “I don’t know.

(0:43:34) speaker_1: ” My mind didn’t quite know how to deal with that. (laughs) So I was like, “Okay.” I just tucked it away. So then what happened is 325Camera…

(0:43:41) speaker_1: ‘Cause I follow these groups, and they happened to mention one day, “If anybody has connections with people 250 centimorgans or above, let us know, and we might be able to help you out.

(0:43:51) speaker_1: ” So I looked back at the matches that I had, and lo and behold, one of these second cousin matches, actually two of them, I think, were, like, 278 centimorgans, which-

(0:44:01) speaker_0: Oh, you just made it.

(0:44:02) speaker_1: Right. I don’t even know how to explain what a centimorgan is but if you do DNA, it’s (laughs) a thing.

(0:44:08) speaker_1: So I sent all the information to them and I paid my little membership, and I think this was maybe likes six weeks before my trip, so I was hoping, fingers crossed, that maybe they’ll find some information before my trip.

(0:44:19) speaker_1: And I sent it off on a Sunday night at, like, 11:30 at night, and before noon the next day, I get an email from them.

(0:44:26) speaker_1: And this was, like, the craziest, busiest day I was having at work ever, and they’re like, “We think we found your dad.” And I was like, “What?”

(0:44:35) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:44:35) speaker_1: “What?” Like, I couldn’t even believe it, and I was like, “This is such a busy day, I cannot even open this email right now.

(0:44:41) speaker_1: I just have to, like, deal with that, do my busy day, and then come back to it afterwards.

(0:44:47) speaker_1: ” And so once w- we had our event and we put it on, I came back and it was like, 4:45.

(0:44:51) speaker_1: And my coworker and I, we opened the email together, and I looked at this picture that they sent and I was like, “No, that can’t be him.

(0:44:58) speaker_1: ” But then he happened to have a open Facebook profile, and so I looked, and I was like, “Well, maybe.

(0:45:03) speaker_1: ” And then I happened to find a picture of myself from, I think, that first San Francisco event where we were kind of faced the same way, and I was like, “Oh, maybe.

(0:45:12) speaker_1: Yeah, I could see this.”

(0:45:14) speaker_0: Oh, so you did some clue thing on Facebook to find him?

(0:45:16) speaker_1: I did. Oh, yeah.

(0:45:17) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:45:17) speaker_1: I’m pretty good at, (laughs) at finding people if I need to.

(0:45:20) speaker_0: Okay. (laughs)

(0:45:21) speaker_1: Then I wrote back and I was like, “Wow. You know? I mean, I trust you guys more than what I’m finding, but it does look pretty compelling.

(0:45:29) speaker_1: ” So I trusted the DNA Angels because I truly did not know what to say at this point.

(0:45:34) speaker_1: I mean, they’re re- very good at kind of coaching you as far as, like, “Don’t just show up to people in your database and be like, ‘Oh, hi, I’m adopted,’ and blah, blah, blah.

(0:45:42) speaker_1: ” (laughs) Like, don’t shock them with that right away. But at the same time, with this, I was like, “I totally trust you all to have these communications.

(0:45:49) speaker_1: ” So they reached out to him just saying that, “You know, we found this person who’s looking for more information on her history, and we’re wondering if you would consider testing to help her find some more answers.

(0:46:00) speaker_1: ” And so I believe he tested at the time because he thought I might be his half-brother’s child, and his half-brother had just recently passed away, so he was like, “Sure.

(0:46:12) speaker_1: I will take the test.”

(0:46:13) speaker_0: And he had also served in Korea?

(0:46:15) speaker_1: I guess so. I don’t honestly even remember if that had been brought up at that point. (laughs)

(0:46:19) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:46:19) speaker_1: I’m guessing it probably was. But yeah, so he, he said, “Sure. I’d be happy to test and help her find her answers.

(0:46:26) speaker_1: ” And they asked him if he was in Korea and he’s like, “Hmm, well…

(0:46:30) speaker_1: ” Like, he had been, but not during the times when I was born, so we’re trying to figure that out.

(0:46:35) speaker_1: I remember we were coming up with these scenarios like, “Well, maybe, maybe he was in Hawaii and she and her family took a vacation to Hawaii, and it was a summer romance or, you know, or that kind of thing, and, and then she went back to Korea and had the baby.

(0:46:48) speaker_1: ” Or, I don’t know, we were dreaming up of these scenarios.

(0:46:52) speaker_1: So then by the time the results came back that showed that he was my birth father, he then came clear and said, “Yes, I, I was in Korea,” but I had been retired from the military at that point and was doing individual contracted work, but it was on a top secret…

(0:47:08) speaker_1: I don’t want to say top secret mission. (laughs) That sounds so Mission Impossible.

(0:47:12) speaker_1: But, you know, it was something that he wasn’t supposed to share at the time, and-

(0:47:15) speaker_0: It was classified.

(0:47:16) speaker_1: … so he had to reach out to them while we were waiting for the DNA results and just say, “Hey, there’s this gal that’s looking for information.

(0:47:23) speaker_1: Am I allowed to tell her where I was?” ‘Cause this is 40 some years later. And so they said, “Sure, just let her know.

(0:47:29) speaker_1: ” So he told me he had been in Daegu, which is kind of close, but not that close to Busan where I was turned in.

(0:47:37) speaker_1: But he said that, yeah, while he was over there, he never had any long-term relationships. It was purely just people he met in the bars, and…

(0:47:45) speaker_1: But it was cool because he did tell me that he had left Labor Day of 1969, and nine months later is my birthday. So it did confirm that…

(0:47:55) speaker_1: ‘Cause that’s kind of a thing with adoptees too, is we don’t always know if the birthday we have is the real one.

(0:48:01) speaker_1: And so he did confirm that that was my birthday.

(0:48:03) speaker_0: And so he didn’t, he didn’t actually know for sure which woman?

(0:48:08) speaker_1: No. No, and in fact, um……

(0:48:10) speaker_1: because when I had gone to the orphanage and gotten two names out of my file, the person that turned me in, and then she also had put another address that was somebody else’s house.

(0:48:22) speaker_1: I went back and I did ask him if he recognized these names and he said, “No, I, I wouldn’t recognize their names and even if I had met them in a bar, they probably wouldn’t be using their real names or who knows.

(0:48:34) speaker_1: ” So he’s like, “No, it, I’m sorry, it doesn’t ring any bells.”

(0:48:37) speaker_0: Mm.

(0:48:38) speaker_1: So we haven’t actually met in person, but he was available and still is available on email if I had any questions.

(0:48:45) speaker_1: But at this point, I just don’t have any additional questions. (laughs) So I haven’t been in touch with him recently.

(0:48:51) speaker_0: Do you want to meet him?

(0:48:53) speaker_1: You know, I reached out, um, I would just be curious to sit across from him like for an hour or something.

(0:48:59) speaker_1: I’ve always been very curious about behavior versus, nature versus nurture.

(0:49:04) speaker_1: (laughs) And so I would love to sit across from him for an hour and just like watch him and, you know, that sounds creepy, but just watch how he moves and talks and that kind of thing and just see if I picked up anything.

(0:49:16) speaker_1: But, um, he’s got some-

(0:49:19) speaker_0: I, I hear a guardedness.

(0:49:21) speaker_1: Yeah, he’s got family that he was, he was married when he was in Korea, so when I was created, and he’s still married to this person.

(0:49:30) speaker_1: So there’s a little bit of an obstacle there and I, I respect that. I don’t want to cause her any more stress about this than she’s probably having.

(0:49:39) speaker_1: But yeah, the fascinating thing was then he said, “You know, I wrote a memoir for my kids and it is actually available on Amazon if you wanna download it.

(0:49:48) speaker_1: ” (laughs) And I was like, oh, that’s kind of cool because right there, I definitely am a writer and I was struggling over a memoir last fall and still am struggling a little bit, trying to figure out how to position it or what I’m trying to say.

(0:50:01) speaker_1: But it was cool to find that commonality then between the two of us.

(0:50:05) speaker_1: So I have not downloaded it yet, but once I do, I will definitely be spending some time with that.

(0:50:10) speaker_0: I wonder if he wrote about his time in Korea?

(0:50:12) speaker_1: I think a little bit. I don’t know.

(0:50:14) speaker_1: He said he wrote this memoir just for his kids and grandkids to have something to look back and just know a little bit more about him.

(0:50:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. And how old is he now?

(0:50:25) speaker_1: I believe he is like late 70s.

(0:50:29) speaker_0: Okay. And he’s, he’s told his wife, you think?

(0:50:33) speaker_1: He did.

(0:50:35) speaker_0: Okay.

(0:50:35) speaker_1: Yeah, and that’s… Because what happened was initially when we were first connected, he actually friended me on Facebook briefly.

(0:50:42) speaker_1: And I immediately panicked ’cause I have a pretty public profile, but I immediately panicked and locked it down so nobody could make comments on my page ’cause I just didn’t, I don’t know him.

(0:50:52) speaker_1: I didn’t know if he’d suddenly be like, “So they think I’m your dad.” You know? (laughs) And then suddenly everybody’s like, “What?

(0:50:59) speaker_1: ” So I, we were friends for a few weeks, I would say. It wasn’t even that long.

(0:51:04) speaker_1: And then it was on the day when I was going to my orphanage that he actually texted me that day and said, “You know what?

(0:51:10) speaker_1: I did tell my wife and she’s a little bit upset. And so out of respect for her, I need to not be your friend anymore, but I just wanted to let you know.

(0:51:18) speaker_1: ” Uh, not on, you know, on Facebook, he said, “But I’m still available if you have any questions and I’ll do my best to try to answer.”

(0:51:25) speaker_0: Mm. That’s such a tough situation to be in.

(0:51:28) speaker_1: It is. And I thought that, you know, maybe with time… ‘Cause I get it.

(0:51:33) speaker_1: I can only imagine from her point, as a woman, it’s not like he was hiding me for that long because he didn’t know about me, but at the same time, to get a shocker like this that late (laughs) in life and, and to be like unraveling every single thing he said, because that’s just something I would do as a woman.

(0:51:48) speaker_1: I don’t know their relationship at all, but, you know, I, I would take some time to process that and then be like, okay, but wait, life is still the same.

(0:51:56) speaker_1: Maybe I thought that she would perhaps calm down or at least see it from a different, more empathetic view.

(0:52:02) speaker_1: But yeah, I also want them to feel comfortable that I’m not just coming after a military pension or anything like that. I’m not here for any of that.

(0:52:09) speaker_1: I’m also not in it to just suddenly become somebody’s family.

(0:52:12) speaker_1: Like, I am curious about specific things and sure, I mean, I would be a friendly person if they had chosen to pursue a relationship, but I’m not in it for family.

(0:52:21) speaker_1: Like, I have my family.

(0:52:23) speaker_0: Do you have interest in potentially meeting half siblings or for your kids to have that connection?

(0:52:31) speaker_1: I would be curious, yeah, ’cause there are, there are two half siblings and I would definitely be curious to meet them, but out of respect, I would not reach out until the parents are no longer here probably.

(0:52:42) speaker_1: (laughs) And I’m not wishing anybody ill at all, but yeah, I would definitely leave that space.

(0:52:48) speaker_0: Um, that’s really interesting ’cause here you are, if I can just be observant, (laughs) you were a stalker right on Facebook trying to find-

(0:52:56) speaker_1: (laughs)

(0:52:56) speaker_0: … and then you’re very restrained now, which I, I, I think is just out of respect that you know-

(0:53:01) speaker_1: Yeah, completely. Yeah.

(0:53:02) speaker_1: I mean, I have looked at the half siblings’ profiles a little bit because they’re public, but they’re also not very active on social, so that’s kind of also another reason.

(0:53:10) speaker_1: I mean, like I said, I’ve always been public with my profile, but I leave it that way also, even though I don’t do as much on social, just in case they ever did get curious, then they can see what I’m all about and hopefully-

(0:53:22) speaker_0: Oh, so that’s one of your reasons for having a public profile, is-

(0:53:26) speaker_1: A little bit. Yeah.

(0:53:27) speaker_0: Okay. What about your mother’s side, your Korean mother’s side? Have you, um…

(0:53:32) speaker_1: That’s been a little bit tougher. You know, these databases don’t have as many Korean people in them thus far.

(0:53:39) speaker_0: Right. Mm-hmm.

(0:53:40) speaker_1: Now I know that 325Camera has recently opened an office in Korea and they’re definitely making progress with that.

(0:53:49) speaker_1: But the closest I got on my mom’s side was a second cousin match. (laughs) So I reached out to them and ironically, they’re like super eager.

(0:53:59) speaker_1: It was funny because they were on there trying to locate all of their cousins.

(0:54:04) speaker_1: So then when I pop up as a second cousin, their goal is like somewhat accomplished or, you know, one part of it is.

(0:54:10) speaker_1: So I reached out and he’s like, “Oh yeah, yeah, I’m definitely, I’m trying to…

(0:54:14) speaker_1: ” Uh, his father had had a business, all the brothers had moved to opposite corners of the country after they had a falling out because of the business.

(0:54:21) speaker_1: So he’s just trying to scoop up his cousins-And he’s like, “Oh, yeah, I have no doubt you’re one of my cousins because I heard that some of, uh, the people in our family had married white people.

(0:54:29) speaker_1: ” And I was like, “Okay.” He’s, like, probably my son’s age, a little bit older.

(0:54:34) speaker_1: So eventually, I was like, “I feel like I need to explain why I keep chatting with you.

(0:54:39) speaker_1: ” (laughs) Because I, you know, I don’t know, even though we’re cousins.

(0:54:42) speaker_1: So I told him what it was going on, and he immediately was invested and like, “Oh, I wanna help you solve this mystery.” And…

(0:54:49) speaker_0: Was he Korean American in the States?

(0:54:52) speaker_1: He was born here in Chicago, I think, actually.

(0:54:55) speaker_0: Okay. And a younger generation, right? So…

(0:54:57) speaker_1: Younger generation, fully Korean.

(0:55:00) speaker_0: Okay. Okay.

(0:55:00) speaker_1: So he was like, “Oh, I wanna help you.

(0:55:02) speaker_1: ” So he immediately went out and bought two kits for his parents before I could even tell him that, like, 325Camera would help with that.

(0:55:09) speaker_1: So he went out, got them tested. But his mom came back also as a second cousin, but just with more centimorgans.

(0:55:16) speaker_1: So I think we’re thinking at this point that it’s gotta be one of her grandmother’s sisters or maybe one of her mother’s sisters. I’m not sure.

(0:55:27) speaker_1: I’m really bad at (laughs) mapping that out, to be honest.

(0:55:31) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:55:31) speaker_1: But here’s the problem. So the problem we’ve run into is that she was the youngest out of all of her siblings.

(0:55:37) speaker_1: Her mother was also the youngest out of all of her siblings.

(0:55:40) speaker_1: So usually, the youngest in the family don’t know the whole family history and the drama and the secrets as much as the older kids do.

(0:55:49) speaker_1: So he’s kind of, like, he’s trying to reach out to the ones that he knows. They did have one of her siblings, I think, come to the States.

(0:55:57) speaker_1: They were just coming on vacation, and so he happened to ask while they were there, but they didn’t know anything about it.

(0:56:03) speaker_1: But the other thing is, even if they do know something about it, are they gonna, are they gonna admit to that? So I don’t know. It’s an interesting thing.

(0:56:11) speaker_1: We’re kinda still, we’re taking it slowly, trying to figure out how to do this.

(0:56:14) speaker_1: He, and he even says, “Some of the relatives that I have back in Korea, we don’t even know all their names.

(0:56:20) speaker_1: ” So I think he’s kinda researching that a little bit.

(0:56:22) speaker_1: And I don’t know, I think next time, if he’s got family coming, I’ll just send a baby picture and say, “Does this baby look familiar?

(0:56:29) speaker_1: ” (laughs) you know, that kind of thing.

(0:56:31) speaker_0: You know, I kind of wonder about this because, you know, family is so important in Korea, right? The bloodlines?

(0:56:37) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:56:37) speaker_0: And yet, I ran into this in my own birth search through DNA, is that I feel like Koreans can be very tight with their immediate family, but then extended family, cousins, great uncles, great aunts, that they can be, like, not in communication with or don’t know what happened to them, or…

(0:56:57) speaker_0: It seems to be like this kind of, I don’t know if it’s a case with extended relatives where they just don’t, I mean, maybe that’s the norm, that people are not so connected beyond the more immediate…

(0:57:10) speaker_0:

(0:57:10) speaker_1: Yeah, I think it’s tough to maintain the tight family connections when people move to another country-

(0:57:17) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(0:57:17) speaker_1: … I think, in some ways.

(0:57:19) speaker_1: At one point, he had said, and I don’t totally know if it’s a real thing or not or if he was just joking at the time, because I think this was before he knew I was looking.

(0:57:29) speaker_1: But he did say once, he said, “Well, there is that one aunt in Daegu.” And I was like, “All right, mental note, and we’ll follow up on that later.” So…

(0:57:39) speaker_1:

(0:57:39) speaker_0: Oh. Mm-hmm.

(0:57:40) speaker_1: So I need to…

(0:57:41) speaker_1: And again, I’m trying not to press him and just make him feel like the only reason I’m talking to him is because I need to know this, even though he’s so willing to help.

(0:57:49) speaker_1: But yeah, I think at some point soon, I’ll probably circle back and just say, “So, you know, why don’t we focus all our attention on that person if that was a real person?

(0:57:57) speaker_1: ” Because then, 325Camera does have somebody also that will travel over there, and if we can get names or towns or that kind of thing, like, they will actually go and walk around and talk to people and see what they can find out.

(0:58:11) speaker_1:

(0:58:11) speaker_0: And I heard that that’s really often what can unearth things, is just people walking around and talking.

(0:58:18) speaker_1: I think so. Yeah, I think so.

(0:58:21) speaker_0: What happens, Sara, if you never meet either of your birth parents?

(0:58:26) speaker_1: I think for me, I’ve tended to make it more, you know, y- you hear those stories about people at the end of their lives, what do they regret, and I didn’t want to be one of those people that regretted not looking.

(0:58:40) speaker_1: And so for me, it’s been more about, how far can I go in my search? What can I uncover?

(0:58:45) speaker_1: So that at least someday, I will be confident in the fact that I got as far as I could.

(0:58:51) speaker_1: So, I mean, I hadn’t even anticipated when I started this journey, what am I gonna do if I find people? (laughs) Or, I haven’t really navigated that.

(0:59:01) speaker_1: But I think, yeah, for me, as long as I feel like I’ve done as much as I could, then I’ll be okay with it.

(0:59:07) speaker_0: And then last, I’m just kinda wrapping up here, Sara, but what would you like the rest of us adoptees who are not mixed race to know about your lived experience?

(0:59:17) speaker_0:

(0:59:17) speaker_1: Hmm.

(0:59:18) speaker_0: Do you feel more accepted or welcome?

(0:59:20) speaker_0: And maybe it was just your own perception that you weren’t welcome at other, you know, sort of adoptee events where you went and you looked at everyone that was maybe full Korean and just like, “This isn’t for me,” but you’ve had a few years now that you’ve been connecting, and do you feel a sense of belonging with other full race adoptees?

(0:59:39) speaker_0:

(0:59:39) speaker_1: Absolutely.

(0:59:40) speaker_1: Yeah, and honestly, I think once I got over that initial doorstep or whatever, getting in the first event and just getting over my fear, I would say, I think when it comes to Korean adoptee events, I don’t actually see, a lot of times, the difference between the mixed race and the full Korean, because I think I, in my brain, I’m just categorizing us all as Korean adoptees.

(1:00:05) speaker_1: And to be honest, like, I think for me, since I don’t have a grasp of who my Korean family is, to me, the adoptees are truly my Korean family.

(1:00:16) speaker_1: So I think that’s another reason why I don’t tend to separate people into categories.

(1:00:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:00:21) speaker_1: So I think for me, it’s just that I hope that……

(1:00:24) speaker_1: those of us that are going through and trying to find things now will hopefully make the journey easier for people that are coming up behind us as they come out of the adoptee fog.

(1:00:34) speaker_1: And the other thing is I really hope that people will share their stories, whether it’s writing poetry or, or just journaling for themselves so that maybe someday their family will find it and understand them more.

(1:00:47) speaker_1: Because I get it, like even my trip to Korea, I didn’t sit down and fully explain it all to my family just because it is so big and downloading all that information and the emotional weight of it all and…

(1:00:58) speaker_1: But I would love it if someday they’re able to look back when they’ve got the time and space and they’re interested in learning more about me, hopefully that they’ll have something that they can look at.

(1:01:09) speaker_1: So, that’s my reason for wanting to write it all down.

(1:01:12) speaker_1: But if nothing else, it also, I think, helps people process things if they can find a way just to get it out of their heads and their hearts and onto paper or something.

(1:01:21) speaker_1: I think it just helps us process because it is a big thing and it’s a unique thing that a lot of people have no idea how to relate to it, and when I go to talk to people and they don’t understand, even people in my family, like I try not to fault them for that because it’s not their experience.

(1:01:37) speaker_1: They have not lived as an adoptee so they don’t totally grasp what it’s like being an adoptee, even though they try.

(1:01:43) speaker_1: So yeah, I think it’s really important for the adoptees to just try to stick together and try to help each other up and along and just be a welcoming place.

(1:01:54) speaker_1:

(1:01:54) speaker_0: And you were part of an anthology? Can you talk a little bit about that?

(1:01:58) speaker_1: Yeah. I was… I submitted a chapter for the Mixed-Race Korean Anthology, and I think that was very early in my journey.

(1:02:07) speaker_1: It’s funny, even now looking back and reading what I turned in, it was a little more raw coming off of my childhood (laughs) growing up, e- even though this is only like a few years ago.

(1:02:18) speaker_1: It definitely brought up a lot more of the raw feelings of what it was like growing up as a mixed Korean and not feeling Korean enough, and…

(1:02:26) speaker_1: And I did definitely talk about the schoolyard and I talked about how my was-band, ex-husband, we got divorced and then he married a full Korean so that kinda…

(1:02:36) speaker_1: You know, and even though that may or may not have been intentional, it, to me, it still felt like it stung a little bit at the time.

(1:02:42) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:02:42) speaker_1: Um, now we’re all friends and I, I love her too, but, um-

(1:02:46) speaker_0: That, that at the time you felt like you hadn’t been Korean enough-

(1:02:50) speaker_1: Exactly. (laughs)

(1:02:51) speaker_0: … for him. Got it.

(1:02:52) speaker_1: Yeah, so I think that was really my focus for that entry.

(1:02:54) speaker_1: But it was funny ’cause at the end, I was like, “Well, someday I hope to go to Korea,” and blah, blah, blah, and I mean, it’s amazing since that time how much has changed and the momentum that has built.

(1:03:04) speaker_1: But it was a great experience for me because I hadn’t met that many mixed Koreans, and through the anthology and then also through the group in LA that we shared and did live readings with, it was amazing to be able to meet other people.

(1:03:17) speaker_1: And it’s funny though because I forget that some of them are not adoptees. But still, it’s been a great community to also be welcomed into.

(1:03:26) speaker_0: Uh, mixed-race folks in general or mixed-race Korean?

(1:03:29) speaker_1: Mixed-race Korean, but since then I’ve also been to a BIPOC adoptee conference, and same thing. There, it’s also a…

(1:03:36) speaker_1: It’s a wide variety of just blended adoptees from all different cultures, and it was just a beautiful space.

(1:03:43) speaker_0: Okay. All right, lovely. What’s the name of the anthology again?

(1:03:46) speaker_1: Um, I believe it is Mixed-Race Koreans, and the thing I loved about it too is that they took the time to translate it into Hangul so that then it could be read in Korea.

(1:03:59) speaker_1: And we were supposed to do a book tour October of 2020, but we know what happened with that. (laughs)

(1:04:05) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.

(1:04:05) speaker_1: COVID canceled that.

(1:04:06) speaker_1: But I really was looking forward to the opportunity to go back to Korea and be able to share my story as an adoptee and as a mixed-race Korean, and just to kind of educate them then a little bit too.

(1:04:19) speaker_1: So everyone’s welcome.

(1:04:20) speaker_0: The fact that you’re… With your was-band and his wife and you’re all friends now, that’s probably another podcast episode, but that sounds-

(1:04:27) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:04:28) speaker_0: … okay. (laughs)

(1:04:29) speaker_1: Yeah, it’s definitely… I mean, I had some role models along the way. But it’s, it’s a good experience now.

(1:04:35) speaker_1: Yeah, and they’ve got a 13-year-old daughter who is mixed race.

(1:04:39) speaker_1: And it’s fun though because we love bringing her along, and we took her to a BlackPink concert ’cause my daughter loves BlackPink.

(1:04:46) speaker_1: Actually, the 13-year-old was the one that introduced us to BlackPink, so we went to that together, and we’ve done some movies.

(1:04:53) speaker_1: I also have a 13-year-old niece, so we’ve taken the girls to movies. So it’s just fun to kind of have those common bonds.

(1:05:01) speaker_0: Well, it sounds like you have a lot of family, you know?

(1:05:04) speaker_1: Definitely.

(1:05:04) speaker_1: And I think also as I get older too, I’m realizing that family by friendship is also incredibly valuable, so I definitely look at how I choose my friends and those I choose to keep closer and that kind of thing, and it’s for bigger reasons, not just ’cause they’re fun.

(1:05:20) speaker_1: (laughs)

(1:05:21) speaker_0: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. And if folks want to get in touch with you, are you open to that? And how can they do it if so?

(1:05:27) speaker_1: Oh, absolutely. I do have a blog. It’s a little bit neglected right now, but I do throw things up there every now and then. It’s makesmewander.com.

(1:05:36) speaker_1: That’s wander with an A.

(1:05:37) speaker_1: And so I believe through there they can actually email me if they want to, or on Facebook, I’m also open to connecting there as well.

(1:05:45) speaker_0: Okay. Thank you so much, Sarah. It was really great to talk to you more, and, uh, I hope you keep sharing your story.

(1:05:52) speaker_1: Thank you. I’m so grateful for this opportunity to connect with you and also to be a part of your podcast.

(1:05:57) speaker_1: I think it’s such an important podcast to have, and it’s been very helpful through the years.

(1:06:02) speaker_2: (instrumental music)

(1:06:11) speaker_0: Thank you so much, Sarah. I wish you the very best as you continue in your adoptee journey.

(1:06:18) speaker_0: Thank you also to Delight Roberts for a recent donation, and to Kate Kelly and Ji Sun Yang for supporting us on our Patreon.

(1:06:26) speaker_0: Jenna Lee Park provided audio production, (… ) is our volunteer Korean translator. I’m Kiyomi Lee. See you next time.

(1:06:34) speaker_2: (instrumental music)