I continue my conversation with Nik Nadeau, a Korean adoptee who reunited with his Korean birth mother years ago, and who is still learning more about her and himself in the process.

Audio available May 10, 2024.

(0:00:00) speaker_0: (music plays) Welcome to Adapted Podcast, season seven, episode 18 starts now. This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.

(0:00:17) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee, and I was also adopted from Korea.

(0:00:26) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, sometimes even our adoptive parents, and society that wants only a feel good story.

(0:00:37) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated than that.

(0:00:40) speaker_1: I would say the high point for me wasn’t necessarily the first time I met my mother. It was maybe like the, um, I don’t know, the eighth or tenth time.

(0:00:49) speaker_1:

(0:00:49) speaker_0: This episode is the second part of a conversation with Nik Nadeau, and about his reunion journey.

(0:00:55) speaker_0: If you haven’t heard part one, I highly encourage you to listen back on episode 17 before continuing.

(0:01:02) speaker_0: This podcast is free, but if you’re able and have enjoyed listening through the years, I’d like to ask you to consider becoming a Patreon subscriber.

(0:01:12) speaker_0: For as little as a few dollars a month, you’ll receive early downloads of each episode. Please go to Patreon.com/AdaptedPodcast.

(0:01:21) speaker_0: Thank you, and thanks to our past and current supporters. You’re the best. Now here is the episode.

(0:01:29) speaker_1: My name is Nik Nadeau, Korean name Im Chang Hun. I live in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. My pronouns are he/him, and I’m 36, uh, going on soon on 37.

(0:01:42) speaker_0: I, I wonder if, um, if it was frustrating to you or difficult to sort of become closer to your oma through another, through a third person, in understanding her story more, and answering the questions, you know, the burning questions you have, you know, it’s coming through interpretation, through an interpreter.

(0:02:07) speaker_0: And, and yet, uh, juxtapose that with your birth mom- mother’s need for a physical closeness, and your need for more maybe an intellectual closeness, or a- an emotional closeness.

(0:02:22) speaker_0: I wonder, can you talk about that? Is… Am I off track here or…

(0:02:26) speaker_1: By the time my wife, my future wife and I, uh, met my birth mother together, um, you know, I’d known my birth mother for, uh, nine years. I had, um…

(0:02:38) speaker_1: By that time, I think I was just beginning to feel a little more comfortable, uh, and a little more accepting of, of who I am, of the fact that my Korean isn’t fluent.

(0:02:52) speaker_1: Uh, sometimes it’s not even great or good, but it’s, it… I- I worked really hard, you know, to, to build up the proficiency that I have.

(0:03:01) speaker_1: I spent a lot of money and a lot of time, uh, as well.

(0:03:05) speaker_1: And I, I distinctly remember her asking, you know, kind of, uh, her version of the question that you just asked, and I…

(0:03:12) speaker_1: and you know, how I felt, um, about her supporting me in this way or being with me in this way, because you know, we, we’d only been together about six months.

(0:03:20) speaker_1: And, um, I told her something to the effect of, you know, it just, it just felt really natural. It felt really normal. It felt okay.

(0:03:31) speaker_1: And, um, you know, looking back on that week, uh, now, I mean, we’re, we’re just coming up on our third year anniversary of being married, um, and about, you know, six years of knowing each other that, that…

(0:03:44) speaker_1: Coming out of that trip, that was the turning point, I think for both of us, for different reasons, where we both realized that, um, we could make for really great life partners.

(0:03:55) speaker_1: We could make, um, for a, a couple that is able to support each other in really, uh, unique, uh, but meaningful ways.

(0:04:04) speaker_1: And for, for me, it wasn’t just her, her language skills.

(0:04:08) speaker_1: It was her ability to, to navigate, uh, in an emotionally attuned way, a conversation that, uh, pretty much everyone else I know would, would have either sweated out or just completely, you know, uh, been fried from.

(0:04:24) speaker_1: She, I mean, she was a little tired, but she wasn’t all that drained. I… She, she was someone who…

(0:04:32) speaker_1: I don’t even know, uh, you know, my, my closest of closest friends, I don’t know if they could have lasted that long, nor would I have expected them to.

(0:04:40) speaker_1: And so, um, you know, I, I felt very confident-

(0:04:43) speaker_0: Eight hours, yeah.

(0:04:44) speaker_1: … especially coming out of that trip, that this is someone that, uh, I felt I could potentially build a life with. Um, so, so I would get…

(0:04:53) speaker_1: I would say that’s my first way of answering your question.

(0:04:57) speaker_1: Um, but I, I think a different, um, lens for me now, especially that, um, that she and I are now married is, is that during the course of, of getting to know my wife, I’ve also gotten to know myself and, and really invested in, in working with an incredible, uh, therapist who is also an adoptee and understands, um, adoption, uh, as a form of trauma, understands, um, kind of what my needs were at every stage over the last five to six years, um, that I’ve worked with this therapist.

(0:05:29) speaker_1: And, uh, during that time, I think I’ve also realized that, um, for me, Korea now in my mid-thirties, still not late thirties, mid-thirties, is that, um, Korea is, is mostly just about family now.

(0:05:43) speaker_1: Um, my wife and, and her family, my birth family, um, and, and going back. She and I are going next month. Um, you know, it, it, it’s to see family.

(0:05:55) speaker_1: Um, it’s hopefully about more than that. Hopefully we can find some time to enjoy our vacation too. But, um, adoption and Korea used to be-…

(0:06:04) speaker_1: I think so much more intertwined, uh, uh, in- in a kind of chaotic way with- with so many other feelings. And- and it still is.

(0:06:12) speaker_1: It’s- I’m not saying that I’ve somehow emotionally graduated from that or I’m just magically above all of that. N- you know, far from it.

(0:06:21) speaker_1: But my wife, I think, is someone who, uh, I don’t necessarily even view as, like, this third entity or this third-party translator or interpreter, even a cultural one.

(0:06:31) speaker_1: She, um, I think in many ways, uh, is so attuned to who I am that, um, she, um, she kind of sees me coming before I- I see me coming, and she sees, in many ways, my birth mother coming now, um, uh, emotionally or, um, you know, otherwise, and- and can really navigate those conversations, um, just so naturally.

(0:06:56) speaker_1: And- and yeah, I’m really grateful for that.

(0:06:58) speaker_0: You know, so as- as we’ve said, you know, 14 years of- of being in reunion, what would you- what would say is, like, the- the high point for you, and- and however you define that, and, um, h- has there also been disappointment?

(0:07:15) speaker_0:

(0:07:15) speaker_1: You know, I would say the high point for me wasn’t necessarily the first time I met my mother. It was…

(0:07:23) speaker_1: Maybe, like the, um, I don’t know, the eighth or tenth time, when it- it was just feeling like a halfway normal routine.

(0:07:31) speaker_1: It- it f- just felt like, um, “This is what I do when I have the time,” and when she is able to make time too. She has a family and a schedule.

(0:07:43) speaker_1: Uh, it felt, um, you know, in those, especially around 2010, 2011, it just felt like this was something that I could rely on and that she could rely on as well, uh, until, you know, I don’t know, another life stage or another change.

(0:08:01) speaker_1: And then, um, you know, I think a- a really…

(0:08:05) speaker_1: A low point, uh, or a disappointment, I wouldn’t call it a disappointment, but, you know, the last two weeks have been, um, by sheer coincidence to- to this conversation, uh, have been some of the most difficult I have ever experienced.

(0:08:22) speaker_1: Um, not necessarily due to my own, uh, experiences, but to my birth mother’s and realizing, um, what she is going through right now, uh, on a- on a lot of levels, um, I think is- is devastating.

(0:08:39) speaker_1: Uh, it’s really devastating for me to process.

(0:08:43) speaker_1: Um, you know, I’m trying to sort of evaluate, uh, you know, how to not overshare but still kind of capture what this is like, because I think it’s really important for adoptees, either who are in reunion or are considering a birth family search or who are just wondering, you know, what it can be like.

(0:09:02) speaker_1: Certainly, there’s all kinds of experiences, but I think one of them is that, um, adoption, by definition, uh, takes a family that otherwise may have had a chance of being a functional one, and it makes it a dysfunctional one.

(0:09:16) speaker_1: Adoption is violence. Uh, it is a usurping.

(0:09:21) speaker_1: It is, um, very much a- a physically and emotionally violent event, and that event as, uh, as trauma is not a one-time thing.

(0:09:33) speaker_1: It’s an ongoing, uh, lifetime experience.

(0:09:37) speaker_1: And, you know, uh, I would love to advocate, uh, and I plan to advocate for my entire life for what that means as an adoptee.

(0:09:48) speaker_1: I also want even more, um, for folks, including adoptees, to learn about the experiences of parents, and not just birth mothers, birth fathers too, birth parents, uh, family members, of what it is like.

(0:10:04) speaker_1: Um, the way I describe it in my writing is essentially to, you know, uh, complete one’s family by destroying another’s.

(0:10:14) speaker_1: And that is not, uh, to say that I personally (laughs) uh, hold this against my adoptive parents. Uh, I don’t.

(0:10:21) speaker_1: Um, I think I- I just read a post, um, recently from Angela Tucker who said, you know, “The- you can have both truths at once.

(0:10:30) speaker_1: ” You can, um, really criticize, and in many ways hate, uh, the adoption system and- and the way that it destroys families, the way that it exacerbates inequities, the way that it, um, uh, essentially is a form of legalized human trafficking.

(0:10:47) speaker_1: And- and you can also hold those beliefs without, um, hating your adoptive parents or your adoptive family, without necessarily hating the life you have, without, um, in many ways feeling that you’re okay with the life that you have.

(0:11:01) speaker_1: And I think, um, all of those truths are held kind of simultaneously for me. Um, but a low point I would say has been the past two weeks.

(0:11:13) speaker_1: I, um, I have realized just how much, uh, how alone my birth mother really is.

(0:11:20) speaker_1: And without going into too much detail, um, that- that loneliness is not, um, is not just social and societal, although it certainly is.

(0:11:35) speaker_1: Uh, it’s also a loneliness of, uh, having a son, having access, uh, to me, having the linguistic ability to navigate conversations with me, as imperfect as they are.

(0:11:48) speaker_1: Uh, she has my KakaoTalk, she has my phone number. She doesn’t use email, but she has that too.

(0:11:53) speaker_1: So, uh, I think some of the disappointment or some of the- the sadness and grief is also in present tense of having every channel available and still feeling that, um, you’ve lost someone, still feeling that you haven’t quite……

(0:12:09) speaker_1: reclaimed them that you never may be able to in the way that you wish. And, and on both sides, for me and for her.

(0:12:18) speaker_1: And I think, um, there is a new, I think, kind of deeper layer of grieving that she and I are both going through.

(0:12:26) speaker_1: Um, maybe more accurately, that she has been going through for quite some time.

(0:12:32) speaker_1: And I, uh, am grieving because I feel guilty for not understanding until now, uh, and also, um, really broken that she has been in this place for this long.

(0:12:46) speaker_1: Um, and I, I, I, I just wish, I wish I could be there to physically give her a hug every day (laughs).

(0:12:53) speaker_1: Um, I don’t even think I’d be able to call her every day.

(0:12:57) speaker_1: There’s so much, uh, about her life that, um, makes it really tough, and about my life (laughs) that makes it really tough, about time zones and language barriers that make it tough, about secrecy.

(0:13:10) speaker_1: And I think one of the things that, uh, I would just really say to anyone who may still hold the view, probably (laughs) not many of your listeners, Kayomi, um, but, but folks who, who t- tend to think of adoption as a really rosy, um, beautiful thing, um, it’s not.

(0:13:28) speaker_1: It’s really not.

(0:13:30) speaker_1: And that doesn’t mean that it is 100% always wrong to, quote unquote, “celebrate adoption,” but adoption is, is one of those things, um, it, you know, it’s a permanent, uh, event that resulted from conditions that maybe or maybe not were permanent, you know, um, poverty or, uh, uh, domestic violence or just, uh, you know, adverse circumstances.

(0:14:04) speaker_1: They, they sometimes are able to improve.

(0:14:08) speaker_1: And I think what I, what I really wish is for my birth mother to have had that chance, um, to, uh, to allow herself to, to keep me.

(0:14:19) speaker_1: Um, that doesn’t mean I don’t want to be here. It doesn’t mean I, you know, wouldn’t do anything for my adoptive family here.

(0:14:26) speaker_1: It just means that right now, um, my focus and my grief, my commitment and f- and, and challenge to myself is, is really centered on my birth mother right now.

(0:14:38) speaker_1:

(0:14:38) speaker_0: You were saying that, you know, at times, you had hoped you could meet your, uh, half siblings, and, and that never, that never happened, and that the secrecy, you know, has been something you’ve also had to accept.

(0:14:56) speaker_0: Um, and, and-

(0:14:59) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:14:59) speaker_0: … you’re just talking about the, the-

(0:15:02) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:15:02) speaker_0: … you know, just extreme burden it probably has been on your birth mother to, uh…

(0:15:08) speaker_0: She must know that you, she can’t give you everything you want, um, being full transparency in her life about you.

(0:15:16) speaker_0: That’s got to be a burden too, and, and then on your side, trying to be understanding, but there’s still probably a, a hurt there that she can’t fully, uh, acknowledge you.

(0:15:31) speaker_0:

(0:15:31) speaker_1: I think the hurt is multidimensional. There, there are so many things she wishes she could do for me or provide for me.

(0:15:43) speaker_1: Um, and I think also, um, woven in is, is some degree of self-preservation, right?

(0:15:53) speaker_1: Like, um, I think many parents who, uh, for one reason or another, you know, have to r-…

(0:16:00) speaker_1: And I, I hate (laughs) that word relinquish, but I’ll just use it for the lack (laughs) of a great alternative.

(0:16:06) speaker_1: There, there’s a lot of, of decent ones out there, but, you know, for my mother, I think, um, relinquishing me wasn’t just once.

(0:16:18) speaker_1: Just as for me, the event of adoption wasn’t just a one-time event.

(0:16:24) speaker_1: Um, I myself am realizing more and more how, uh, that relinquishing, it just, (laughs) just like any form of trauma, it, it resurfaces. It’s a cycle.

(0:16:36) speaker_1: It, it, um, it repeats itself.

(0:16:40) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, for her, I think, um, not being able to allow me to introduce myself to my half siblings, I think was a way that she had to preserve, uh, what she did have, whether she, she liked that situation or not.

(0:17:01) speaker_1: Um, and I understood that. You know, we, we talked all throughout that summer in 2016.

(0:17:08) speaker_1: Um, I don’t know how I pulled the Korean (laughs) skills out of my…

(0:17:13) speaker_1: I, I had just finished, uh, supervising a Korean immersion program that summer, so I, my Korean was probably at its peak.

(0:17:22) speaker_1: But it’s still, I think more than any linguistic proficiency, was just this emotional readiness of I’m ready to confront her, um, and I’m not afraid that confronting her is going to lead to her re-abandoning me.

(0:17:39) speaker_1: She’s not gonna leave me. It’s going to be okay. I’m going to, uh, you know, hold my ground. And, uh, I think…

(0:17:49) speaker_1: And the way it turned out is, um, you know, she essentially said when, when my half siblings are 30, (laughs) um, that they’ll be ready and, and we can, we can reengage the conversation from there, but right now, they’re just not ready.

(0:18:02) speaker_1: And what she, you know, she didn’t verbally spell out what she meant by ready or gave, you know, she didn’t give a definition, but I understood what she meant.

(0:18:12) speaker_1: Uh, what she meant is they, um…… they may not forgive her.

(0:18:17) speaker_1: They may see this as something that is actually, (laughs) you know, a, a, a sin or a, a, you know, a secret that she’s held that they hold against her.

(0:18:27) speaker_1: Um, she’s always had a, a fairly, um, you know, fragile, on a string relationship with both of them, from my understanding.

(0:18:36) speaker_1: She’s, uh, at minimum, she’s constantly concerned about, um, you know, uh, her ability to be close with them, and, and I think, uh, that made sense to me.

(0:18:48) speaker_1: Um, what didn’t make sense to me was the 30 part. (laughs) I th- I think both of them are, are, um, are now past that. Uh, s- I’m not gonna …

(0:18:57) speaker_1: read that into face.

(0:18:58) speaker_2: Oh, she had, she had given an age? Like she could be-

(0:19:01) speaker_1: She has. She said, you know, once they turn 30, they’ll be, they’ll be ready. Um, (laughs) I, I still don’t quite know.

(0:19:07) speaker_1: I mean, 30, you know, especially at that time was, you know, a common age where if you turn 30, you’re ready to get married or you need to get married as soon as possible.

(0:19:14) speaker_1: Um, but it, it wasn’t about that. I think it was just about their emotional maturity, um, she said wasn’t there yet.

(0:19:22) speaker_1: Um, and, and I, you know, we haven’t revisited that conversation. I do write a lot about it.

(0:19:29) speaker_1: Uh, I also write a lot about my birth father, um, um, and his refusal to see me.

(0:19:34) speaker_1: And I think, you know, my mom is doing her best, and I don’t think that’s me sort of just defending, uh, a mother as a son tends to do.

(0:19:46) speaker_1: I, I think, uh, I see and I know a little more than I did even two weeks ago about, um, what her best really looks and feels like.

(0:19:54) speaker_1: And right now, for a long time, her best has just been trying to survive every day.

(0:20:00) speaker_1: Um, trying to, to make ends meet, trying to, um, find some semblance of normalcy. Uh, and, and for that, I think she deserves all the credit in the world.

(0:20:13) speaker_1: I think if there’s one heroine in this story, it’s her.

(0:20:16) speaker_1: If it’s, uh, someone who, uh, will probably be invisible to most and, and will need to stay, uh, far outside of, of the public eye and the p- and the, you know, the, uh, the public kind of consciousness, she, she deserves all the credit in the world for being, um, strong enough to, to make it this far.

(0:20:36) speaker_1: And, um, you know, that’s what I think about right now. And there will be a time where I reengage. There will be a time where I fight for that.

(0:20:47) speaker_1: Um, I still would like to meet them.

(0:20:49) speaker_1: Um, the only thing I know is we figured out pretty early I couldn’t just like pretend to be their English tutor ’cause we look so alike.

(0:20:57) speaker_1: (laughs) So we ruled that one out.

(0:20:59) speaker_1: That’s not, that’s not gonna, um, be, uh, you know, in the playbook, but we’ll, we’ll have to come up with something else.

(0:21:05) speaker_3: But I died before I’d forget you. I watched the years go by with nothing but clouds in my mind.

(0:21:24) speaker_1: She’s going through a lot right now.

(0:21:25) speaker_3: And did for quite some time. But they can’t erase the pain inside.

(0:21:26) speaker_1: And, um, you know, I didn’t really know, uh, the extent of, of what she was going through.

(0:21:33) speaker_1: Um, she also, I think, felt, uh, a lot of shame around, you know, telling me. I mean, there’s just a lot going on right now, um, for her.

(0:21:43) speaker_1: And, um, after a few weeks, uh, several weeks of, of not really replying to messages, very simple messages in Korean just letting her know my wife and I were coming, she, uh, literally just last week, she called my wife, um, on KakaoTalk and she, uh, I mean, she just explained, you know, why she didn’t feel able to talk.

(0:22:04) speaker_1: She didn’t really, uh, get into every single detail. I think we’ll, we’ll figure a lot of this out when we visit.

(0:22:12) speaker_1: Um, but she did share some pretty, um, concerning details about her current situation. And, uh, and then sh- uh, I talked to her.

(0:22:21) speaker_1: Um, you know, I advocated for, um, myself and said, “Look, I, whatever you’re going through, I just need to know that you’re there.

(0:22:31) speaker_1: Even if you just send me a quick message, hey, uh, a lot’s going on, I can’t talk, but I’ll get back to you. That’s all I really need.

(0:22:40) speaker_1: ” Um, and after that, uh, you know, um, she had explained a lot to my wife where I didn’t want to make her re-explain, you know.

(0:22:48) speaker_1: But, uh, what I did realize is that she just wants more of me.

(0:22:53) speaker_1: You know, she wants, um, she just wants m- uh, more communication, uh, more sharing, more normalcy.

(0:23:00) speaker_1: And, and whether or not I can always provide that, um, I have been trying, uh, certainly, but I think there’s a new layer of depth that we’re both seeking, and, and I think we’re getting there now.

(0:23:14) speaker_1: Um, uh, unfortunately due to the circumstances that I, I wouldn’t wish on anyone, but I think through those circumstances, through that hardship, uh, a new kind of avenue of communication has opened up, both linguistically and emotionally for us.

(0:23:29) speaker_1: Um, and I think we’ve both been ready for that.

(0:23:32) speaker_1: I think we’ve actually been preparing for that and wanting that for some time, and this just happened to be how we got there.

(0:23:41) speaker_1: Um, so, um, it’s not a, it’s not a rift between us. It’s more of like she, um, she and I, I think are trying to figure out what we want to do now.

(0:23:53) speaker_1: Um, I have technically the ability to, um, be in Korea, uh, for more than just a week a year certainly.

(0:24:01) speaker_1: Um, my wife and I both, um, you know, are open to moving to Korea again. We’ve been talking about that for quite some time. Nothing drastic.

(0:24:09) speaker_1: Uh, no, you know, no drastic decisions now. Um, but for reasons that are beyond my birth family and my wife’s family, we, we both want to be back in Korea.

(0:24:17) speaker_1: Um, and so I think these conversations are happening in the context of……

(0:24:25) speaker_1: uh, a lot of other things, of career decisions, of, of, um, you know, money decisions, you know? We’d probably be taking a pay cut to move to Korea.

(0:24:36) speaker_1: Um, well, almost certainly. I mean, wages in Korea are lower, uh, factoring in the (laughs) exchange rate, like almost certainly.

(0:24:44) speaker_1: Um, you know, raising kids in Korea. We’re not decided on kids yet, and would that be a factor?

(0:24:50) speaker_1: Um, you know, um, you know, my wife would feel a lot more at home. Um, I certainly linguistically would be at an advantage, but I’d have her.

(0:24:59) speaker_1: Um, you know, what do we, what do we want?

(0:25:02) speaker_1: Uh, and I think this is just the messiness of, of being in your 30s and also, um, I think what I’d really like to, to leave, you know, your listeners with is this notion that it’s okay to choo- it’s okay to set priorities and to choose certain priorities over others, including your birth family.

(0:25:23) speaker_1: It’s okay to not prioritize your birth family. It’s okay to not prioritize your adoptive family.

(0:25:31) speaker_1: It’s okay sometimes even for a while, uh, hopefully a very small amount of time, to not prioritize yourself if one of those family members or multiple family members need you in a certain way.

(0:25:41) speaker_1: Um, but I think there’s, um, and I hope this conversation, uh, through this conversation, I haven’t unintentionally given the impression that, you know, for me, birth family is everything.

(0:25:51) speaker_1: It’s, it’s not.

(0:25:52) speaker_1: Um, it’s, it’s a huge part of my life, uh, my mother and my uncles and, and even the family members that I probably will never be able to meet, but it’s not all of my life.

(0:26:03) speaker_1: It’s not the only factor in any decision I make. Um, and I’ve had to really come to accept that. I’ve had to be okay with that. Uh, and I am.

(0:26:12) speaker_1: I think I can confidently say now, uh, that I am, and, and now I’m just choosing for myself.

(0:26:20) speaker_1: Uh, I’m choosing what I need, and that’s always informed by what my birth mother needs, by what my parents here need, um, but more than anything, what my wife needs.

(0:26:31) speaker_1: My wife and I, uh, are my priority now, and I think, um, frankly, I’m, uh, in a weird way, I’m really excited.

(0:26:40) speaker_1: I’m excited for what decisions my wife and I make together moving forward. I think we have a lot of really interesting options.

(0:26:48) speaker_1: Uh, a lot of them involve healing, um, with our respective families.

(0:26:53) speaker_1: And, um, and that’s not (laughs) something I’m, like, looking forward to, you know, like a really good TV show.

(0:27:00) speaker_1: But it’s (laughs), um, it’s something you look forward to because you’re ready. You look forward to healing because you’re so sick of not healing.

(0:27:10) speaker_1: (laughs) You’re so sick of not making progress.

(0:27:13) speaker_1: And when you do sense, um, that you’re ready and that the other person is ready, that circumstances are allowing you to be ready, yeah, I think, I think I’m ready, uh, in a way that I haven’t felt ready in a long time, to, to choose, um, whatever my wife and I are, are, are most comfortable choosing for ourselves.

(0:27:33) speaker_1: And, um, and I’m just so, I’m so fortunate that, um, I have the ability to have conversations like this, Kayomi.

(0:27:44) speaker_1: I’m so, uh, we’re so, um, rich with, uh, with the podcast and the conversations and the community that you’ve helped create.

(0:27:51) speaker_1: So I just want to say thank you.

(0:27:54) speaker_1: Um, I also want to say, um, you know, uh, it’s, it’s also a discursive burden to, um, to navigate conversations, um, you know, that aren’t your own.

(0:28:06) speaker_1: And so, you do a marvelous job, um, at hosting every one of these conversations, so I just want to say thanks.

(0:28:12) speaker_4: Well, uh, a- and I’ll- thank you to you too, Nick, for this gift of this conversation.

(0:28:19) speaker_4: Um, it’s, I re- I realize it’s not easy to, you know, um, talk this, about these personal details about Reunion.

(0:28:28) speaker_4: But Reunion is deeply personal and it’s also-

(0:28:32) speaker_1: Oh, yeah.

(0:28:33) speaker_4: … something that, you know, whether we’re in reunion or not, um, it’s something that is, uh, just like, uh, the relinquishment for adoptees.

(0:28:47) speaker_4: The relinquishment, it is something we always live with. So does-

(0:28:52) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.

(0:28:52) speaker_4: So is reunion or the fact that we can’t reunite.

(0:28:56) speaker_1: Yeah.

(0:28:56) speaker_4: That’s always with us, so.

(0:28:58) speaker_1: 100% yes.

(0:29:01) speaker_4: Yeah. (laughs)

(0:29:02) speaker_1: Yes.

(0:29:02) speaker_1: And in fact, this is where I really struggle to share my story sometimes because, um, there are so many (laughs) adoptees that I know personally, uh, that are unable to, to find and locate their families, um, and, uh, aren’t able even sometimes to, um, having found their families, to, to make it work past that, uh, discovery and, uh, everywhere in between.

(0:29:27) speaker_1: And so I think, um, wherever you’re at as an adoptee, wherever your circumstances are at, um, you know, I think, uh, the most important thing is, uh, I’m kind of a nerd, so I’ll quote Gandalf here, you know, from Lord of the Rings.

(0:29:43) speaker_1:

(0:29:43) speaker_4: (laughs) Me too.

(0:29:44) speaker_1: It’s just, uh, you know, the, to, to make the most of the time that we have.

(0:29:49) speaker_1: Um, I, I think, uh, you know, it, it certainly was more eloquent than that, but we just have to decide what to do with the time that we’re given, I think is the line.

(0:29:59) speaker_1: And for me, um, it’s become a lot more simple now, um, and a lot more clear.

(0:30:06) speaker_1: And, uh, I think that’s a result of working on myself and also understanding and stumbling a lot, (laughs) um, uh, leading up to this point, and that’s okay.

(0:30:18) speaker_1:

(0:30:18) speaker_4: Will you be, you’ll be starting a podcast?

(0:30:20) speaker_1: I will be. So, uh, my wife and I are, uh, gonna be…… launching something soon.

(0:30:28) speaker_1: Um, uh, we’re still working out the concept, uh, but for now I think the concept is going to center, uh, in some way around reunion and post-reunion, not necessarily be defined by that, um, but offer, uh, uh, kind of stories, examples, but also, like, even just language tips, um, given that my wife is bilingual.

(0:30:51) speaker_1: And very, um…

(0:30:52) speaker_1: she’s not a translator, (laughs) um, by trade, but, uh, you know, she’s willing, um, to, uh, kind of discover, help me discover, uh, in many ways for my own situation, you know, what phrases, uh, could be most helpful from a language standpoint in Korean, but also, you know, emotionally, um, and also culturally all, all in one.

(0:31:15) speaker_1: Um, so I want to talk about the post-reunion experience, but I also want to talk about what it’s like to, um, navigate adoption as an adoptee, uh, when, uh, you are trying to balance so many different things at once.

(0:31:32) speaker_1: Um, career, family, um, geography, and I think for me, uh, that’s something I’m always interested in exploring, especially from the standpoint of, of access to mental health.

(0:31:45) speaker_1: You know, not everyone has the opportunity to speak with a therapist who, uh, is, uh, either an adoptee themselves or really understands and has an expertise in adoption as a form of trauma, and I think that’s, uh, frankly what I wish more people were able to…

(0:32:04) speaker_1: I wish everyone had access to that.

(0:32:07) speaker_1: Uh, and so, um, through my podcast, I, I hope to, uh, at least, uh, allow those types of conversations, uh, to flow, uh, in ways that hopefully will be helpful and engaging.

(0:32:18) speaker_1:

(0:32:18) speaker_0: Nick, did you want to read anything? Not the poem to, to be published, but is there anything you wanted to read of yours?

(0:32:25) speaker_1: Oh, that’s so generous of you. Yeah, so I’ll actually read, uh, a poem that I haven’t mentioned yet.

(0:32:33) speaker_1: Uh, I wrote it, uh, during a workshop, uh, led by the great Carolyn Holbrook here in the Twin Cities in Minnesota.

(0:32:43) speaker_1: Uh, and the prompt was to, uh, think of an image, uh, and, uh, let that image kind of carry you through emotionally in a way that makes you question kind of your assumptions about what that image might mean or your understanding of what that image might mean going into it.

(0:33:02) speaker_1: So, with that prompt, uh, I wrote a poem called Full Spectral Band. Burning stars is redundant to say.

(0:33:14) speaker_1: By definition, a star converts energy, gas to flame, flame itself the invisible made exothermic, luminous. A flame begins and ends non-luminous.

(0:33:30) speaker_1: At first, a zone before the blue until, and at last, a veil capping the yellow we all aim for when blowing out.

(0:33:40) speaker_1: I wish you could love me as a stargazer loves the full spectral band, all temperatures, atom by atom, so you could see not just the color of the soot, but the pure element from which it began.

(0:33:56) speaker_1: The atmospheric pressure, the level and type of gravity that sculpted its shape as a flame that is also a star, radiant not because you breathed it to life, but because all else tried to extinguish, yet it survived.

(0:34:14) speaker_1:

(0:34:15) speaker_5: Tell me what’s the point of me staying? Why did you have to

(0:34:23) speaker_0: Thank you. I love that. Nick, um, and this is great too, reconnecting after Fulbright. Shout out to Fulbright.

(0:34:31) speaker_0: (laughs) Um, if s- folks want to get in touch with you, um, or follow you, what, where can they look or?

(0:34:39) speaker_1: Yeah, so my current Instagram is @nikchanghoon. That’s N-I-K-C-H-A-N-G H-O-O-N.

(0:34:46) speaker_1: Uh, my wife and I are in the process of, um, still figuring out our, our, uh, social handles for our own podcast, um, but I’ll be glad to share in the future, or else, um, you know, listen, we’re, we’re all community.

(0:35:01) speaker_1: I’d love to have you on, um, and return the favor, uh, and, and-

(0:35:06) speaker_0: Yes, definitely.

(0:35:07) speaker_1: … um, you know, we’ll, we’ll definitely get there. It’s gotta launch first. (laughs)

(0:35:11) speaker_0: (laughs)

(0:35:12) speaker_1: And then, um, you know, I, I also want to say that, uh, you know, there are so many voices right now that are so inspiring, um, you know, and I, I just wanna, you know, give you credit for, um, being really early and building that foundation, uh, that I think so many others, including me, benefit from, um, and so, uh, this podcast is a stellar example of that.

(0:35:38) speaker_1:

(0:35:38) speaker_0: Thanks for saying that, Nik.

(0:35:40) speaker_5: (rapping)

(0:35:51) speaker_0: Thank you so much, Nik. And we’re looking forward to hearing your podcast coming soon. Thanks also to Jacqulyn Wells for your glorious music.

(0:36:02) speaker_0: To learn more, go to jacqulynwellsmusic.com. That’s J-A-C-Q-U-E-L-Y-N-W-E-L-L-S music.com. Until next time, I’m Kaomi Lee.

(0:36:16) speaker_5: Please just say you don’t need me. Say, say, say you don’t love me. Say you don’t love me anymore. Oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh, oh-oh-oh.

(0:37:04) speaker_5: (singing) Yeah. (singing)