Thomas Haessly, 40, has felt like an outsider ever since he can remember. Adopted from Korea by a Danish mother and American father to Racine, Wisconsin, Haessly recalls feeling like an imposter within his family, of not quite fitting in, and again as an adult at Korean grocery stores and parenting his own children. Haessly’s sister, Mia, also an adopted Korean, is featured on Season 7, Episode 8 of this podcast. This interview is the first for the podcast where adopted siblings who grew up together open up about their lived experiences, and illustrate their differences.
Audio will be available on February 16, 2024.
(0:00:04) speaker_0: Welcome to Adopted podcast, season 7, episode 12 starts now.
(0:00:08) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays) This is a podcast that centers the voices of Korean inter-country adoptees.
(0:00:15) speaker_0: Adopted people are the true experts of the lived experience of adoption. I’m Kaomi Lee and I was also adopted from Korea.
(0:00:23) speaker_0: Our voices have often been silenced by adoption agencies, governments, and sometimes our own adoptive parents and society that wants only a feelgood story.
(0:00:33) speaker_0: Our lives are more complicated and complex than that. These are our stories.
(0:00:39) speaker_1: I had a Korean friend when I was living in Florida. She introduced me to the H-Mart, um, a long time ago.
(0:00:44) speaker_1: Whenever I go, uh, I kinda get the sense like I feel like I don’t have any, like, connection and I almost feel like I- I should (laughs) or like, you know, like, or I want to.
(0:00:53) speaker_1:
(0:00:53) speaker_0: This next episode is a first for the podcast. I talk with Thomas Haysley, a younger sibling to another episode guest, Mia Haysley, earlier this season.
(0:01:03) speaker_0: They are the first adopted Korean siblings we’ve heard from who grew up together but had some differences in their experiences with their parents.
(0:01:13) speaker_0: But before we begin, I wanna say a little bit about becoming a Patreon supporter.
(0:01:17) speaker_0: Patreon supporters can join for as little as a few dollars a month and can cancel at any time. They’re helping to sustain the work of this podcast.
(0:01:27) speaker_0: All funds go directly to costs such as production help, podcasting software, music licenses and more.
(0:01:33) speaker_0: Dozens of folks just like you have felt part of a community larger than themselves through these stories. They’ve decided the podcast is worth their support.
(0:01:42) speaker_0: If you’re new to the adoptee community and this is your first step of dipping your toe in, welcome, and I hope that you will one day support us as well.
(0:01:52) speaker_0: I hope you’ll consider joining by going to Patreon.com/Adoptedpodcast. Thank you. Now, here’s Thomas.
(0:02:00) speaker_1: (instrumental music) Uh, my name is Thomas Haessly.
(0:02:07) speaker_1: Um, I am 40 years old and I currently live in Northern Virginia near- just outside of DC area, and my Korean name is, uh, Lee Ji Sung.
(0:02:23) speaker_0: Okay.
(0:02:23) speaker_0: So Thomas, um, you are- this is probably the very first, um, sibling interview that I’ve done where I’ve interviewed, um, where both were adoptees, both your sister, Mia Haysley, who, um, I spoke with a few weeks ago and then yourself.
(0:02:45) speaker_0: So thank you for coming on.
(0:02:46) speaker_1: Yeah, of course. Happy to do it.
(0:02:48) speaker_0: Um, what did you think of that, if I can just ask, what did you think of, um, hearing your sister’s story like that?
(0:02:58) speaker_1: Um, I really enjoyed it. Um, there was a few things in there that I actually didn’t really know, I guess.
(0:03:06) speaker_1: Um, such as the, kinda the difficulties that she- that she had found out about Holt and the adoption agency.
(0:03:13) speaker_1: Y- you know, not wanting to give up the information or, you know, you know, or give up- give up my sister again, you know. So that was kind of interesting.
(0:03:23) speaker_1: I didn’t actually know that, so there’s some facts that I found out that I didn’t know and, um, kind of made me think about just growing up in general, how it was like and, uh, you know, me and my sister’s, um, experience was definitely different even though we, you know, grew up together, we- we kind of had different experiences on how we, um, you know, were adoptees, I guess, growing up in Wisconsin.
(0:03:52) speaker_1:
(0:03:54) speaker_0: Sure. Um, and remind me again, you grew up in Racine?
(0:03:58) speaker_1: That’s correct. Mm-hmm.
(0:03:59) speaker_0: Okay. Isn’t Racine also known for, um, is there like a Danish or s- Scandinavian-
(0:04:07) speaker_1: Yeah. Um-
(0:04:07) speaker_0: … dessert or something? Or you can-
(0:04:10) speaker_1: Kringles?
(0:04:10) speaker_0: The Kringles, yes.
(0:04:12) speaker_1: Yes. (laughs) Yes.
(0:04:13) speaker_1: O&H Bakery, um, yeah, that’s- yeah, it’s really big in that area, so (laughs) you don’t bring donuts to a meeting, you usually bring a Kringles, so.
(0:04:23) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays) Uh, so I guess it’s like a Danish dessert in this kind of like ovular ring (laughs) and it has, um, it’s like this light pastry with some fruit and then frosting.
(0:04:36) speaker_1: Uh, it can come in different variations and stuff, but- but for the most part, that’s one of the more common ones with a raspberry filling or maybe with pecans or something.
(0:04:45) speaker_1: But yeah, it’s…
(0:04:46) speaker_0: Now we heard in Mia’s episode that your mother, um, is Danish, grew up in, uh, you know, as a Danish immigrant, um, to America.
(0:04:56) speaker_0: So Thomas, what do you know about your origins in Korea?
(0:05:01) speaker_1: Um, not very much.
(0:05:02) speaker_1: I- I have like some paperwork from the adoption, um, that, you know, just describes a little bit such as like, um, like the ages of my- of my birth parents, uh, from when they ad- um, you know, gave me up.
(0:05:20) speaker_1: My dad was- my birth father was a bit older, I guess, graduated from high school.
(0:05:25) speaker_1: My birth mother was- was several years younger, um, didn’t graduate from high school and, um, and then, you know, gave me up at about, I think I was about three years old, maybe a little bit younger than three.
(0:05:38) speaker_1: And then I was with a foster parent, with like a foster family, um, till they- till I was adopted, so.
(0:05:46) speaker_0: And, um, so you have kind of this biographical background, but no names of your parents?
(0:05:53) speaker_1: No, they weren’t included in the paperwork, unfortunately.
(0:05:58) speaker_1: So, um, uh, I don’t think I actually ever told my sister this, but I actually did make really feeble attempt……
(0:06:07) speaker_1: to, to see, um, if I could contact my, like, you know, birth parent, you know, if any of them were looking for me.
(0:06:14) speaker_1: Um, it kind of fell apart when, you know, the Holt Agency started asking for some information that it just didn’t feel like it was…
(0:06:22) speaker_1: I was giving up my information to somebody reliable. So (laughs), um, I kind of just stopped at that point and haven’t tried again.
(0:06:30) speaker_0: So, you, you were adopted through Holt?
(0:06:31) speaker_1: Yes. Mm-hmm.
(0:06:33) speaker_0: And then what was the US agency? Was it Lutheran Social Service or?
(0:06:38) speaker_1: I think it was Bethany.
(0:06:39) speaker_0: Okay, Bethany. Okay, and so when you contacted Holt, they weren’t… You were finding it was difficult. Did you think…
(0:06:47) speaker_0: Did you have a sense that maybe they had your information and they just weren’t giving it to them?
(0:06:52) speaker_1: Um, yeah, potentially, ’cause I gave them a bunch of other information that, you know, should have been able to…
(0:06:58) speaker_1: Like a lot of my adoption information that was on my paperwork.
(0:07:01) speaker_1: Um, but they were wanting, like, my driver’s license ID, like a, like a snapshot of it and stuff, and, um, I didn’t really think that needing my Virginia driver’s license, um, should have been, like, uh, necessary right off the bat-
(0:07:18) speaker_0: Hmm.
(0:07:18) speaker_1: … necessarily so. But, um, but I could have tried harder for sure. I just didn’t, like, pursue it any- any further at that point.
(0:07:26) speaker_0: And what year were you born?
(0:07:29) speaker_1: In ’83.
(0:07:31) speaker_0: Okay. And do you know the, the, the town or city?
(0:07:34) speaker_1: So, (laughs) so this is kind of where it’s interesting, ’cause, um, I, I think between, like, the translating of, like, the cities and things like that, that something probably got, um, either misinterpreted or misspelled.
(0:07:51) speaker_1: But from paperwork it says something along the lines of a, uh, Kyonggi of South Korea, which when I looked at it in a map, it doesn’t…
(0:08:01) speaker_1: You can’t find it, but it’s more closely looks like it could be, like, um, like one of the suburbs of, of Seoul, um, because I saw-
(0:08:09) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:08:09) speaker_1: … a name that looked similar to that. So, um, so I, I’m assuming that I’m from somewhere in Seoul initially.
(0:08:15) speaker_0: And, uh, is searching something that you’ve sort of recently wanted to do or is it something you’ve always wanted to do?
(0:08:26) speaker_1: So I think once I hit 40, um, I started just thinking about my life in general (laughs), uh, and, and I think I kind of came to somewhat of a realization that it might be nice to find out kind of where I came from and who, um, you know, uh…
(0:08:46) speaker_1: Yeah, just ex- where I came from.
(0:08:49) speaker_1: And so, um, I think lately, I’ve been more interested, and I think after listening to my sister’s podcast and you interviewing her, um, it kind of, like, you know, um, sparked more interest as well.
(0:09:02) speaker_1: So I- I think I, I will try and pick up that, um, you know, that investigation to see if, if I can, you know, find anything more out.
(0:09:13) speaker_0: Okay. You know, um, what, what’s your earliest memories? Um…
(0:09:18) speaker_1: (laughs) So, some of my earliest memories of…
(0:09:22) speaker_1: Uh, which, you know, I, I’m, I’m unsure if were a dream or real, but, um, I remember walking on, like, a dirt road as well as sleeping on a floor and, and being in a…
(0:09:38) speaker_1: kind of like this house that had these just big giant, um, sliding doors on it. So, um, from my understanding that… I believe it’s Korea.
(0:09:50) speaker_1: So I, I, um, I’m married and my, my wife is actually half Korean, um, and- and so her mother’s, uh, fully Korean, and when I told her about that dream, um, she actually said that makes a lot of s-…
(0:10:03) speaker_1: Could be actually Korea because of doors being like that big, sliding and, um, you know, sleeping on the floor as well as the dirt roads.
(0:10:14) speaker_1: Um, so I, I’m assuming that it’s, it’s real, but that’s, that’s about as far as back as I can remember.
(0:10:18) speaker_1: I don’t remember anything about my actual, like, adoption or coming to the United States though either (laughs).
(0:10:23) speaker_0: So you, um… Have you been back to Korea?
(0:10:27) speaker_1: Um, I haven’t. Um, I think I’m a little afraid (laughs) to go to Korea, um, ’cause, uh, I- I think I have a hard case of imposter syndrome (laughs).
(0:10:39) speaker_1: Um, ’cause I- I definitely wouldn’t feel f- like I would fit in by any means, and, and this happens to me from time to time where I’ll be, you know, uh, out, out and about and, um, you know…
(0:10:52) speaker_1: You know, like, I’ll be with my wife and, um… and they’ll start… Like, we’ll go to somewhere where it’s a…
(0:10:59) speaker_1: some kind of Korean establishment, whether it be like grocery store or even just out and about, um, and the person will start speaking to me directly in Korean, assuming that I’m…
(0:11:08) speaker_1: can speak the language and, and, and I cannot.
(0:11:11) speaker_1: And, um, my, my wife who is half but doesn’t look actually Korean, um, she speaks fluently in Korean and will end up kind of, like, stepping in and responding kind of for me.
(0:11:23) speaker_1: Uh, but it al-…
(0:11:24) speaker_1: Like, I don’t, I don’t blame the person for doing that, but I also kind of feel a little bit guilty, like I feel like I should be able to respond a lot of the time.
(0:11:33) speaker_1:
(0:11:33) speaker_0: And, you know, that’s really, um, uh, a, a tough standard we put on ourselves because, you know, obviously and as you know, um, based on, you know, being adopted, there’s really no reason why you should be able to speak Korean, you know?
(0:11:51) speaker_0:
(0:11:52) speaker_1: Yeah. And, and I definitely try and rationalize that with myself, you know, ’cause, you know, that of course makes sense.
(0:11:57) speaker_1: But for some reason, just like that-
(0:11:59) speaker_0: Hmm.
(0:11:59) speaker_1: … it almost feels instinctual or just like that gut where it just… Like, I feel like I should be, I should be (laughs), um……
(0:12:08) speaker_1: able to respond and I just, and I can’t ’cause I, I did come to United States actually speaking Korean.
(0:12:15) speaker_1: Um, I was old enough to where I, I, I w- I would speak, I would sing, and I would play in Korean.
(0:12:19) speaker_1: And then, of course, you know, the language just kind of left me and I’ve absolutely no memory of it. But, um, but yeah, it just… I don’t know.
(0:12:28) speaker_1: It’s kind of this feeling that I just can’t seem to ever get rid of my whole life.
(0:12:32) speaker_1: Just I also kind of felt a little guilty that I don’t, I can’t actually play more of the part of being Korean. Um…
(0:12:41) speaker_0: If you can, um, indulge me a little bit, Thomas, can you describe what that imposter feeling, how that feels?
(0:12:49) speaker_1: Um, (sighs) I, I guess, like, I feel like I, I’m… For some reason, I’m, like, standing out. Like I…
(0:12:56) speaker_1: If, like, if, if everybody was a black dot, um, in a picture, I would be that one white dot in the center of it.
(0:13:03) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, even though, um, no one’s really looking at me and I re- and, you know, I can rationalize that much, but it just…
(0:13:10) speaker_1: I can’t shake that feeling of it where I feel like I’m just not… like, I don’t, I don’t belong. I, you know, I, I’m not like… Yeah, yeah.
(0:13:19) speaker_1: Like, I was born here, but I wasn’t raised here, and I have no real connection to the culture other than through, you know, my wife.
(0:13:29) speaker_1: And so, um, I, I guess I start feeling a bit, uh, um, I guess, kind of guilty in that, you know, I almost feel, like, let down. Like-
(0:13:39) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:13:39) speaker_1: … like, I feel like I am almost, like, letting myself down for not knowing more about my culture or, you know-
(0:13:45) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:13:45) speaker_1: … like, my, you know, I guess, my birth origin. So, um, I, I think… Yeah, I just… It…
(0:13:52) speaker_1: Uh, I’m not normally an anxious person, but I almost feel like it makes me more anxious.
(0:13:58) speaker_0: (inhales deeply) Do you think it’s, like, a… this feeling of, you know, lack of competency, cultural competency?
(0:14:04) speaker_1: Y- yeah. Actually, that would…
(0:14:06) speaker_1: Actually, that’s a really good way to describe it ’cause, um, I, I feel like I should be going there and I would be making all, like, the typical mistakes that, you know, um, any foreigner would make.
(0:14:17) speaker_1: But, um, but I feel like I shouldn’t be since I look like… I, I look Korean, but I’m not. So, um, uh, yeah, I… Like, it would be…
(0:14:28) speaker_1: I feel like it’d just be very stressful as well, where I just… I wouldn’t know any of, like, the real customs or-
(0:14:35) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:14:35) speaker_1: … courtesies and, you know, like, real history of, of the country either, other than, you know, just what we learned in school. So…
(0:14:43) speaker_0: Did you, did you read Crying In H-Mart?
(0:14:47) speaker_1: Um, I have not, no.
(0:14:49) speaker_0: So she describes, um, you know… She was similar to your wife. She’s, um, biracial, white dad and Korean mother.
(0:14:59) speaker_0: And after her mother died, you know, it’s like the Korean grocery stores were kind of, like, the connection to her mom.
(0:15:08) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:15:09) speaker_0: And I, I am s-… I remember feeling, having feelings similar to you, where when I first started going to Korean grocery stores.
(0:15:18) speaker_0: And, and to be honest, it… You know, I’ve been going to them. I first kind of went in, like, sort of 2015 or so. Um, and so it’s been s-…
(0:15:33) speaker_0: um, I don’t know, seven, eight years now where I’ve become more familiar. But… And I… A- also, I… In that time, I went to live in Korea for a year.
(0:15:42) speaker_0: But, you know, there’s still… They seem… There’s something that, I think for, um… one of…
(0:15:50) speaker_0: the Crying In H-Mart author, you know, she had these memories of childhood and tastes and flavors and labels and thi-… you know, things-
(0:16:02) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:16:02) speaker_0: … that were sentimental to her youth, right?
(0:16:05) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:16:05) speaker_0: To childhood. And when I go, and I’m sure similar to you also, it’s, it, it’s very, um… I don’t know. It’s… There’s, like, a sadness because…
(0:16:17) speaker_0: for me anyway, um, when I go, because I don’t have any of those sentimental childhood memories, and, and a part of me feels like I should have, you know.
(0:16:30) speaker_0:
(0:16:30) speaker_1: Yeah. Um, actually, that’s actually a good point ’cause that’s not something I’ve, um, kind of realized. But when I do go and…
(0:16:39) speaker_1: Like, I didn’t start going until, um… I had a Korean friend when I was living in Florida. She introduced me to the H-Mart, um, a long time ago.
(0:16:48) speaker_1: And I went to one in Atlanta once, but then I hadn’t been for a long time. And then I started going with my wife, um, and her, and her family once we met.
(0:16:57) speaker_1: And whenever I go, I…
(0:16:59) speaker_1: like, I kind of get the sense, like, I feel like, um, I don’t have any, like, connection and I almost feel like I, I should (laughs) or, like, you know, like, um…
(0:17:12) speaker_1: or I want to, or, like, this is just… It’s, it’s so foreign to me, but I feel like it shouldn’t be, um, at the same time.
(0:17:20) speaker_0: You know, as a, as a Korean adoptee, we’re used to sticking out, especially if we… you grew up in Racine-
(0:17:26) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)
(0:17:27) speaker_0: … Wisconsin. You know, white parents, um, probably stuck out quite a bit, right? In school and…
(0:17:35) speaker_1: Absolutely. I mean, um, in…
(0:17:37) speaker_1: Like, I’ve, I’ve happened to see an old picture from, from, like, this old class picture from second grade and, um, it came to me… I realized that I…
(0:17:46) speaker_1: all throughout elementary, middle, and most of high school, except for, like, the very last year where we had a, a Korean foreign exchange student, um, I was the only, um, Korean, let alone Asian in my, in my cr- class or grade, like, every, every year.
(0:18:04) speaker_1: (laughs) So, so yeah, I didn’t… um, definitely, definitely was usually the only one, um, and definitely stood out.
(0:18:11) speaker_1: I think I, I grew up not wanting to either (laughs) a lot, so.
(0:18:17) speaker_0: Well, yeah. So why do you think it feels… So we’re…
(0:18:20) speaker_0: You know, on, on the one hand, we’re so used to sticking out, it’s almost like when we don’t stick out, that might be a little uncomfortable, ’cause, uh, sort of that blending in aspect, um, is also kind of like a different sensation, right?
(0:18:37) speaker_0: Because we’re not used to it.
(0:18:38) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:18:39) speaker_0: Why… But then why…
(0:18:40) speaker_0: But, but sticking out in a, you know, like in a Korean community or a majority Asian, you know, if you’re in a majority Asian place, like, that also feels uncomfortable.
(0:18:53) speaker_0:
(0:18:53) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs) Um, I don’t know. I think… Yeah, it’s… I don’t know. It’s hard to explain, I guess. I, I, um-
(0:19:01) speaker_0: ‘Cause I think on the one hand we stick out because of vis- like, um, physically.
(0:19:06) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:19:07) speaker_0: Growing up and culturally, right?
(0:19:09) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:19:09) speaker_0: And then you’re some place where, like, I guess, intellectually we know, like, these are our people, or this is the culture I was from, but then we stick…
(0:19:17) speaker_0: We feel like we don’t belong.
(0:19:20) speaker_1: Yeah. And, and I definitely get that sense of, you know, the whole physical appearance part of it, but it, it is interesting, ’cause I, um…
(0:19:30) speaker_1: I mean, if I were to be standing i- in the middle of, like, an Asian community or, or like go to some kind of Asian, um, you know, populated area that I…
(0:19:40) speaker_1: I, I would still feel like I’m standing out physically for some reason.
(0:19:45) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:19:45) speaker_1: Um, like people would know or, or like as soon as I interacted, I guess, that’s when I know I’d immediately-
(0:19:50) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:19:50) speaker_1: … be able to stand out. Um, so it’s like-
(0:19:54) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:19:54) speaker_1: … if I go to anywhere like that I would… I’d probably be very quiet and very kept to myself, and just not…
(0:20:00) speaker_1: Very reluctant to try to do anything, ’cause… To try and keep from (laughs) standing out, um, from anything I’m doing. So…
(0:20:10) speaker_0: I think it’s also, for me anyway, it’s kind of like, um… (sighs) It’s difficult to, you know, once you’re trying to… I, I… You know, it…
(0:20:24) speaker_0: You talk about in your 40s having this, you know, desire to connect back to your roots or know more about your history, and, you know, I think a lot of us when we get to that age, sort of, you know, middle-age or, um, where we, uh, we may want to, um, connect back, and it’s hard when, you know, there’s certain gatekeepers or gatekeeping to being able to connect back.
(0:20:48) speaker_0: And one of it, I think, is language, where even if we have a desire to connect back to our roots, that language sort of relegates us as outsiders, and it’s somewhere…
(0:21:02) speaker_0: It’s something like we can’t access it.
(0:21:06) speaker_1: Um, uh, yeah.
(0:21:06) speaker_1: I do feel like the language barrier is probably one of the biggest aspects of things, where, um, you know, just being able to communicate, you know, with somebody who looks like me but isn’t speaking the same language, um, you know, that’s-
(0:21:24) speaker_0: Do you feel like there’s some, like… When you’re at the checkout, like, you disappoint them somehow-
(0:21:30) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:21:30) speaker_0: … because you’re not able to-
(0:21:31) speaker_1: Yeah, I feel like every time. Like not just, not even just the verbal but the non-verbal cues.
(0:21:36) speaker_1: Um, like for the longest time, I, I didn’t know that, um, when, when someone was handing me like a receipt and they were Korean, you know, it’d be like a sign of respect, you know, how they kind of touch their arm or present it out.
(0:21:49) speaker_1: Um, and I, I did use-
(0:21:51) speaker_0: Oh, the one hand and then their arm, their hand goes-
(0:21:54) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:21:55) speaker_0: Okay.
(0:21:56) speaker_1: Yeah. And so like I, I… Like those… There’s like some non-verbal cues that I, um…
(0:22:01) speaker_1: Or, you know, that, that I definitely don’t pick up on either until someone, you know, pointed it out to me. So, so I feel like, uh… I- I’m…
(0:22:10) speaker_1: I think I’m very self-conscious about that as well, where like if I, I’m looking the part and then I feel like I’m disrespecting somebody ’cause I missed or I’m not, I’m not aware of some kind of, you know, non-verbal gesture that, you know, I should be aware of.
(0:22:26) speaker_1: That or I… Appear that I should be aware of. So, um-
(0:22:30) speaker_0: You know, Mia talked about feeling Danish. Um-
(0:22:35) speaker_1: Y- yeah.
(0:22:35) speaker_0: Do you… Did you feel Danish, or do you still?
(0:22:39) speaker_1: So, no. That was kind of where, um, one of the differences in, in how Mia and I grew up was, um…
(0:22:46) speaker_1: Uh, so like, you know, my parents, or, you know, my mom taught her, her Korean, and so my sister grew up learning to speak Korean. She speaks it fluently.
(0:22:57) speaker_1: They never taught me that, um-
(0:23:00) speaker_0: Oh, Danish, you mean?
(0:23:01) speaker_1: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, they never taught me how to speak Danish, so, um… So I actually never really connected very much with the Danish culture either.
(0:23:10) speaker_1: So I kind of felt a little bit more distant in that regard and, you know, in that aspect of my family growing up, ’cause I couldn’t… I just…
(0:23:20) speaker_1: I, I never felt very connected to that either.
(0:23:23) speaker_1: And so I, I ended up kind of very connecting t- or ended up connecting very strongly to just general, like, American culture, I guess, um, where, you know, like, I, I feel like I would adopt those types of customs and, and, you know, traditions, uh, like faster.
(0:23:45) speaker_1: Like I, I don’t decorate my Christmas tree like, like, um, like a Danish house would.
(0:23:50) speaker_0: You don’t have the… You don’t have the Danish flags on your Christmas tree?
(0:23:52) speaker_1: (laughs) No, I don’t. Um, you know, my mom had actually sent them to me one year for Christmas when we first bought our house and, um…
(0:24:01) speaker_1: And it’s not that I didn’t want to put them up, but I just… It just didn’t f- seem to fit what, what…
(0:24:10) speaker_1: Like, the whole, like, tree and, and how things were being decorated in our house. So, like, I didn’t. Um, we still have them, but yeah, never…
(0:24:21) speaker_1: So I never connected to really being Danish either, um, for that.
(0:24:27) speaker_0: You know, your sister talked about how her relationships would feel s- she would feel closer to your mother when she spoke Danish.
(0:24:37) speaker_0: When they spoke Danish together.
(0:24:39) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:24:40) speaker_0: Um, w- did you feel, um, you know, did they ever maybe do that in front of you and did you feel a little bit like an outsider that you couldn’t join in?
(0:24:51) speaker_0:
(0:24:51) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, that was actually pretty, pretty common (laughs) a- and frequent.
(0:24:57) speaker_1: Um, and I, and I think a- and like language is, is something that’s so important when it comes to connecting with somebody around town where, like, I know my wife connects with her mother so much more because she, they can speak Korean together, um, regularly.
(0:25:16) speaker_1: And, um, and, and you know my wife has a sister who also can speak Korean but not as well as my wife, and so she doesn’t actually have as close of a relationship with, you know, um, their mom.
(0:25:27) speaker_1: Um, they get along, of course and whatnot, but just you can tell there’s a closer relationship between, uh, my wife and, and her mother.
(0:25:37) speaker_1: And so I, I feel like because there was such a strong connection, um, to like the Danish culture as well in, in the household that I was growing up in that I, I kind of felt almost like an outsider in, in my family as well where I was j- so much more just American.
(0:25:55) speaker_1: Um, and so, um, and even my dad who is, who is, who is American, um, he, you know, he adopted to the kind of Danish culture very strongly.
(0:26:05) speaker_1: He speaks it fluently. He lived there with my mom, of course, and, you know, had my si- you know, adopted my sister there.
(0:26:12) speaker_1: And, and so, uh, they would speak Korean, they would have friend………………………. that would come over that were… or sorry.
(0:26:18) speaker_0: They would speak Danish.
(0:26:18) speaker_1: Danish, yeah, thank you.
(0:26:20) speaker_0: Yes, yes, yes.
(0:26:20) speaker_1: They would speak Danish and bring over Danish friends and they would have these, you know, everybody speaking Danish and having, you know, their, you know, uh, good times like that.
(0:26:28) speaker_1: And so I, you know, I definitely always kind of felt left out where I, I didn’t know what was going on so I could just sit back and just watch, but I, it, so it just made me feel, um, uh, outside of everything, y- you know, kind of as usual.
(0:26:43) speaker_1: And so it, it was a little bit of a struggle to kind of ever feel like I was… like I ever fit in or was part of something, um, growing up.
(0:26:51) speaker_0: Yeah, that must have been really hard, you know.
(0:26:55) speaker_0: I mean, looking back now if you think about the fact that they, your, all the other family members had this language, uh, connection or that they bonded with, and you were left out.
(0:27:10) speaker_0:
(0:27:10) speaker_1: Yeah, and I know it wasn’t an, you know, intentional and/or obviously meant to be that way, but, um, a- and it is something that I didn’t really realize until I was older and looked back was that, um, um, I mean, I always felt like an outsider in my family growing up.
(0:27:27) speaker_1: Um, I, I couldn’t always pinpoint why, but I, I, I do think that the language part of it was probably a big aspect of it ’cause they could, they could, you know, easily talk and, and joke and, you know, um, converse about things in Danish and, and, and just have a better understanding of, of things and, and just the way to convey how you feel or, or say something can sound, you know, very different in one language to another.
(0:27:56) speaker_1: So it, it’s, um, you know, frequently, you know, um, my wife will explain to me if we’re, you know, she has me watching some kind of Korean movie or something and that like the subtitles are completely different than what they’re kind of like really saying or like there’s not a r- like an easy way to describe what this person is saying in, in English.
(0:28:18) speaker_1: So, um, so it kind of made me realize that there, there’s a lot of, um, things that are expressed from one person to another in certain languages that just aren’t the same when, when translated to like English.
(0:28:33) speaker_1: So to know the language is such a… it really does, you know, uh, make people closer in that sense.
(0:28:41) speaker_0: Do you ever wish that your parents would have put you into a Korean school when you were younger?
(0:28:45) speaker_1: To be honest, I’m kind of glad they didn’t. (laughs) Um, a- and the reason I say that-
(0:28:50) speaker_0: Okay.
(0:28:50) speaker_1: … is ’cause I, I think I would have just felt like that much more of an outsider. But that’s just my initial thought.
(0:28:56) speaker_1: I mean, if I really think about (sighs) what it would have been like, it probably…
(0:29:01) speaker_1: uh, I mean, it could have been really good to be honest ’cause, you know, more people would look like me, um, a- and things like that, and I would have grown up, um, probably feeling like I fit in a lot more or fit in somewhere at least, um, you know, growing up.
(0:29:18) speaker_1: So, um, so ’cause I think initially I’m, I s- I say I’m glad they didn’t because of just how I grew up and, you know, I’ve, I’ve really come to, um, accept and be, you know, happy for who I am now.
(0:29:30) speaker_1: Uh, so that’s why I said I’m not…
(0:29:33) speaker_1: I’m glad I didn’t, but, you know, it, it could have been just very different, I think, um, you know, good and bad, of course.
(0:29:40) speaker_1: But yeah, it, it would have been an interesting, um, upbringing. I think it definitely would have been different, I’d say.
(0:29:48) speaker_0: So you talk about, um…
(0:29:50) speaker_0: Thomas, you talk about that you just had this very American, um, childhood and, and you just, uh, identified with just being A- you know, sort of you’re all-American.
(0:30:01) speaker_0: What kinds of things did you do and how would you describe your relationship with your parents?
(0:30:06) speaker_1: Um, I mean, so I guess, you know, growing up I, you know, I just, um…
(0:30:11) speaker_1: I was just able to identify more with my friends who were just American and just kind of like your typical white American.
(0:30:21) speaker_1: Um, a- and, and just the way that they grew up, like the food they ate, um, the things they enjoyed to do, you know, that’s just kind of how I, um……
(0:30:32) speaker_1: that kind of just gravitated towards that, ’cause I feel like that’s where I felt like fit in the most, or was at least accepted the most.
(0:30:39) speaker_1: Um, and so, (sighs) I, I was never very close with my parents growing up, and, and I feel like it definitely shows as I’ve gotten older.
(0:30:48) speaker_1: You know, I, um, th- they weren’t, I mean, they weren’t, um, like these, like terrible parents by any means, but just, you know, I don’t think they realized how much certain things may have had an impact in terms of how close we would have ever been able to get.
(0:31:02) speaker_1: And so there’s, so they- there’s definitely distance between us, and, um, you know, I don’t, I, I definitely don’t speak to them very much unfortunately.
(0:31:11) speaker_1: And, um, yeah, so I kind of never really got close, because I kind of felt so distant from, from them.
(0:31:22) speaker_0: And what about your dad? Never really bonded with him as well?
(0:31:25) speaker_1: Uh, no, um, no, my dad was kind of another case (laughs) where he, he just, um, he traveled a lot and then it just kind of he was just not very…
(0:31:36) speaker_1: He’d, like, he would be gone, but then even when he was home, he felt like he was very distant as well.
(0:31:41) speaker_1: So, um, you know, in terms of, like, having any kind of, like, conversation with my parents or, like, having any kind of, like, real discussion or being able to, like, open up to them or talk to them about things, never really, um, happened, uh, at, at all.
(0:31:56) speaker_1: So, um, you know, I, I, I find myself having so- certain interests that are shared, like with my dad, but, um, but I don’t know if that’s really just for me growing up because I like it or if it’s because he actually influenced it in any way.
(0:32:11) speaker_1: I think it’s, to be honest, I think it’s the, the, um, you know, the former where I just kind of grew up that way, and that’s what I ended up liking.
(0:32:20) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah, I, I, it’s not that I don’t get along with my parents, but I definitely don’t, um, I’m not exceptionally close to them at all, and I, I definitely never have been really.
(0:32:31) speaker_1:
(0:32:35) speaker_0: Um, what did you make of, you know, you heard Mia, um, talk about her relationship with her, with your parents, and also there was some really, some tough moments, uh, with your mother really kind of accepting, um-
(0:32:53) speaker_1: Huh.
(0:32:54) speaker_0: …
(0:32:54) speaker_0: you know, the fact that she’s reunited with her birth father and, um, just the fact that her children were identifying more with Korean culture than Danish, and-
(0:33:07) speaker_1: So-
(0:33:08) speaker_0: … wh-
(0:33:09) speaker_1: … I guess I’m not surprised that my, you know, my mother behaved that way.
(0:33:12) speaker_1: For, for me growing up, and this was another difference between, you know, m- you know, um, me and my sister is that, uh, you know, my sister at least was somewhat close to my, my mom, you know, our mom growing up and, and I wasn’t.
(0:33:26) speaker_1: And so kind of like the, the way that she’s being treated now is, or my, the way my sister’s being treated now by my mother is very, it’s a lot more consistent the way, with the way that I was kind of treated growing up.
(0:33:37) speaker_1: Um, now, I, I, I, I don’t, I, I really dislike the fact that, um, you know, my, my mother behaved the way she did about, um, you know, you know, my sister, you know, meeting my stepda- or, uh, her birth father and things like that.
(0:33:58) speaker_1: And, and ’cause I, I mean, I was, I was really happy for her and I thought it was a really cool thing and, and really interesting, and, and maybe that’s just, you know, something that, um, well, I would feel more of just because, uh, you know, my, it’s a connection that my sister and I have is, you know, the fact that we both are adoptees like that.
(0:34:14) speaker_1: Um, but, like, I, the way that my mother’s been treating her is, is in being more distant and my, you know, um, I, I feel, yeah, like it’s, it’s not new to me.
(0:34:27) speaker_1: (laughs) Like, um, since I was never very close to the Danish culture, I was never very close to her in general or be able to have a conversation with her that-
(0:34:35) speaker_0: That’s something you’re used to.
(0:34:35) speaker_1: … um, like, uh, the way that she would, she treated things was like in kind of like, um, just like that.
(0:34:41) speaker_1: (laughs) Uh, she, she would always kind of talk negatively to me or, uh, negatively about things that I would be interested in that wasn’t aligned with how she would think they should be and things like that.
(0:34:53) speaker_1: So, um, you know, and that’s, that’s definitely one of the reasons why I, I’m, I’m, I, I keep my distance from my mother especially is ’cause I just don’t feel like being criticized about how I live my life, so-
(0:35:04) speaker_0: That’s what, yeah, that’s what Mia said that your mother, um, her personality tends to be a little negative.
(0:35:12) speaker_1: Yeah, um, and, and-
(0:35:14) speaker_0: Critical maybe.
(0:35:15) speaker_1: Yeah, very critical, um, and it can be very negative without seeing any kind of like, you know, um, like, like kind of positive spin on it, as well as like, uh, she has to, like, really, I mean, like, like sometimes she should just not include her own opinion on certain things, but she just feels like she has to, like it’s almost like she can’t hold herself back on it.
(0:35:37) speaker_1:
(0:35:37) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:35:37) speaker_1: And so her opinion will be very, like, negative or insulting or, you know, anything along those lines and, um, and she just feels justified to, to be able to express it like that, um, you know, regardless of kind of who it is it seems like a lot of the time.
(0:35:54) speaker_1: And, and to be honest, it, it felt like growing up that she prioritized other Danish kids over, over me a lot of the time. So, um-
(0:36:06) speaker_0: Oh, how s- how so?
(0:36:08) speaker_1: So, (sighs) like, like if she would have her Danish friends over and the, like, these Danish, and like they would have kids over, um, she’d be just so freely giving up, away my stuff to those kids without considering that it was, it was mine.
(0:36:26) speaker_1: (laughs) Um-
(0:36:27) speaker_0: Mmm.
(0:36:28) speaker_1: Like, it’s like, “Oh,” and, like, she would just make the justification as, like, “Oh, he doesn’t play with it,” things like that.
(0:36:32) speaker_1: And it’s like, and it’s, it’s w- and then that wouldn’t, wouldn’t be true. (laughs) Um, or they would break something of mine or they would just, uh-…
(0:36:40) speaker_1: like, be rude or something like that. And then I… Like, the guy just had to, had to deal with it. Like, it’s… They would be, uh-
(0:36:48) speaker_0: Like, she didn’t have your back.
(0:36:49) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah.
(0:36:50) speaker_0: Right?
(0:36:50) speaker_1: Absolutely. That was exactly it. And, um, and, and that, that’s, that’s how it was.
(0:36:57) speaker_0: You know, looking back, that’s got to be really painful. I mean, at the time, you probably didn’t, you didn’t know anything different.
(0:37:03) speaker_1: Um-
(0:37:03) speaker_0: Probably maybe thought all families were like that. (laughs) But…
(0:37:06) speaker_1: In some ways, I, I did. But then, you know, like I… And, and yeah, as I got older, I realized that that’s just… It really shouldn’t have…
(0:37:13) speaker_1: How it should have been, and it’s definitely had an impact on my life as, um, as I’ve grown up.
(0:37:19) speaker_1: Um, you know, it took a lot to become a bit more assertive on things and feel like, um, you know, my opinion actually mattered at times or, like, you know, like just, just kind of being able to stand my ground at, in certain points was, was definitely a difficult thing to overcome because of that, um, of that upbringing of just not, um, feeling like, like, like, um…
(0:37:47) speaker_1: Like a feeling like I was always in the wrong, or I was always having to give up what I, I had, you know, um, to somebody else. So…
(0:37:56) speaker_1: And, oh, and, and (laughs) and also, like, when, when the friends would come and bring me like a little gift or something, um, you know, just because they’re meeting me for the first time, uh, y- my mother would insist, you know, “Oh, he doesn’t need that.
(0:38:10) speaker_1: ” You know? “Just, just keep it.” So, like, I, I wouldn’t get to keep it.
(0:38:14) speaker_1: And so, um, so yeah, like, accepting things for myself, uh, can also be very difficult, or accepting any kind of, like, compliment or, like, um, praise-
(0:38:23) speaker_0: Hmm.
(0:38:23) speaker_1: … is often very difficult for me.
(0:38:25) speaker_0: And, Thomas, this one’s a little bit similar to my upbringing too.
(0:38:30) speaker_0: Um, and, and, you know, I’ve had really difficulty with self-esteem and the, uh, the assertiveness and, you know, always, um…
(0:38:42) speaker_0: Sometimes things, uh, let things happen to me, and then afterwards, I would want to react, but it was too late, you know? (laughs) Like, I-
(0:38:50) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah.
(0:38:50) speaker_0: … couldn’t react in the moment.
(0:38:51) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have, uh… Yeah.
(0:38:54) speaker_0: And, uh, and just not having the confidence that I deserved more.
(0:38:58) speaker_1: Yeah. Um, yeah. I don’t… Um, (laughs) I could think of a lot of moments where I’ve had those, where I think back and I should have…
(0:39:07) speaker_1: I, I should have stood up for myself or been more assertive or just, you know, responded differently than, than I did. And I…
(0:39:16) speaker_1: And, and I just can only think about wishing that, uh, I did versus, um, you know, of it actually happening. So, um… And, and yeah, it’s definitely been…
(0:39:27) speaker_1: As I’m sure you’re aware of kind of this lifelong struggle of trying to get it, you know, trying to find some kind of way of overcoming it, because of that reason.
(0:39:37) speaker_1: So, um…
(0:39:40) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Do you think that maybe, uh, you know, your parents, you know, they lacked in some parenting skills?
(0:39:50) speaker_0: How much do you think that’s related to being adopted and not being biological?
(0:39:58) speaker_1: (laughs) You know, so I have, I have thought about this, and I, you know, and I question that ’cause…
(0:40:05) speaker_1: So, uh, I, I think a part of it, in terms of, like, biological…
(0:40:08) speaker_1: So, like, I am biologically very different than my dad, not just from physical appearance, but, like, um, but, like, just, like, uh, like…
(0:40:18) speaker_1: I have a lot of… I had a lot of allergies growing up. Allergic to cats, um, which, you know, didn’t help because we had a cat growing up.
(0:40:27) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, like, I’m very allergic to pollen and things like that, and…
(0:40:31) speaker_0: Were you a sensitive boy?
(0:40:33) speaker_1: Um, I wasn’t necessarily sensitive, just, just a lot of allergies that kept me from wanting to be outside a lot. And so my dad-
(0:40:40) speaker_0: Okay.
(0:40:40) speaker_1: Yeah. And so my dad liked to be outside a lot, and, um, I definitely couldn’t connect with him oftentimes for that reason. And, and also that, um, like…
(0:40:50) speaker_1: Like, I have ADHD that kind of went undiagnosed until I was about 30.
(0:40:55) speaker_1: And, um, and so, like, the way that my mind worked was definitely very, very different than, than theirs.
(0:41:02) speaker_1: And my dad is a very structured, organized person, um, and things like that.
(0:41:07) speaker_1: And so when he would work on something and I would want to help him, um, he didn’t want me to because, uh, like, I, I would…
(0:41:17) speaker_1: I, I’d probably do something that he didn’t, um, like, like he wouldn’t want me to do.
(0:41:23) speaker_1: And so, uh, there are some other things too where just I think there’s some tensions and, and, and things between the relationship between my mom and my dad anyways.
(0:41:33) speaker_1: But, um, uh, I think, um, that it was a lack of, like, awareness and certain levels of ignorance that I try to have a little forgiveness for towards my parents ’cause, you know, like, nowadays, we have the internet, and it’s so much easier to kind of just do the research of, of certain things, um, and look up, like, what to kind of expect if you’re going to adopt, like, a Korean child or something.
(0:42:01) speaker_1: And, you know, then they just kind of had, uh, what they’re either given or trying to make an effort somehow to get to the library and, and do that kind of research and trust that it’s, you know, um…
(0:42:13) speaker_1: That, that they have enough information in that regard. So, um, so I think there’s a little of that, of that ignorance. But, um… But I think…
(0:42:24) speaker_1: (laughs) So I think it’s two different factors.
(0:42:27) speaker_1: From my dad, I think it was just I just was just kind of too different from him a lot of the time, and I just wasn’t mature enough for his, uh, for his…
(0:42:37) speaker_1: What he was, I think, kind of hoping for at times, um, in being able to find, uh, kind of a bond in a son in that regard.
(0:42:47) speaker_1: Um-And then, you know, with my mom, I think it was definitely, like, the whole, like, Danish culture and, and language that kind of kept me from having, like, a real relationship with her as well.
(0:42:59) speaker_1: So, um, just those factors, me… I, I don’t think actually being Korean was ever, would ever have been an actual issue. I, although (laughs) I, I think…
(0:43:11) speaker_1: I, I do think that my mother was a little racist at times, um, and made too many assumptions about just Asian cultures.
(0:43:21) speaker_1: And, um, and just like, like, like, like I said, she’s very pro-Danish and, (laughs) and so it, it didn’t seem like she really…
(0:43:29) speaker_1: She wasn’t very welcoming of, it seemed like, of other cultures a lot of time. Um, whether she’d like to-
(0:43:36) speaker_0: Did you ever get the-
(0:43:36) speaker_1: Mm-hmm. Go ahead.
(0:43:38) speaker_0: Did you ever get the sense that she thought Korean culture was inferior or-
(0:43:43) speaker_1: Oh, yeah. (laughs)
(0:43:44) speaker_0: … just not, just uninteresting? (laughs)
(0:43:46) speaker_1: Uh, so I would say that, um, uh, my mother has a very…
(0:43:50) speaker_1: She feels Danish culture in general is just, like, the, the best culture in the world kind of mentality.
(0:43:56) speaker_0: Sure. Mm-hmm.
(0:43:56) speaker_1: Like, so like, um… So absolutely.
(0:43:58) speaker_1: Um, like, she, she just feels like it, like, the Korean culture wouldn’t be able to stand up to the Danish culture, and so she’d be very quick to point out all the bad things that may have happened in, in Korea’s history or something like that, but then just omitting anything that occurs in Denmark or something.
(0:44:13) speaker_1: And don’t get me wrong, I mean, Denmark, um, seems to do a very good job at a lot of things, but, uh, you know, no- nothing’s without its faults.
(0:44:21) speaker_1: So it was, it was very hard to accept her, um, justification on things in that regard, but, um, but yeah, she did feel that way, I could tell.
(0:44:32) speaker_0: Do you think she is gonna find this podcast?
(0:44:36) speaker_1: Uh, no. (laughs) Um, the, no. Uh, she…
(0:44:39) speaker_1: If she did, it would be a huge change in the way she thinks in terms of, um, wanting to listen to other people’s experiences that may not sound good, um, from her perspective.
(0:44:54) speaker_1: So, um, if this was a Danish podcast, she might, but since this is primarily about adoptees sharing their experiences and stuff, uh, I, I think it’s very unlikely.
(0:45:04) speaker_1: Not unless we actually, you know…
(0:45:06) speaker_1: And we, by me, by like me and my sister actually gave her or showed her the, the podcast, which I don’t think either one of us are gonna end up doing.
(0:45:14) speaker_1:
(0:45:14) speaker_0: You know (laughs) that, that kind of illustrates it right there, because, you know, this is adoptees sharing their experiences and your mother’s uninterested.
(0:45:22) speaker_0: (laughs)
(0:45:23) speaker_1: Yeah. Yeah, um, (laughs) yeah, because, because, um, with, you know, my s-… In both aspects, you know, she’s not… We’re gonna…
(0:45:33) speaker_1: We’re, we’re speaking about her in, you know, in terms of, like, the way that we kind of grew up and our experiences around her, and she is very unwilling to accept that, that she is, um…
(0:45:43) speaker_1: That, that anything that was really wrong or, like, like, she would justify her behavior or, or some way and, and seem like everything should be forgiven and, and getting over it kind of thing.
(0:45:54) speaker_1: Um, (laughs) li- like, and it doesn’t matter who, who tells her or things like that, I, (laughs) I… When I-
(0:46:03) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:46:03) speaker_1: … was in high school, um, my mother thought I had a lot of behavioral issues for some reason, and, and I really wasn’t a bad kid.
(0:46:10) speaker_1: I, I, I didn’t get into trouble or anything like that, but she thought because I didn’t…
(0:46:15) speaker_1: Um, ’cause I just was not close to her and that I just didn’t want to listen to her.
(0:46:19) speaker_1: Um, I mean, the fact that I was also a teenager in high school I, I don’t feel like kind of came, came to her mind, but she took me to a therapist.
(0:46:27) speaker_1: And, um…
(0:46:27) speaker_1: So I talked to this therapist, and after the therapist spoke to, to me and then spoke to both of us together, um, the therapist came to the conclusion that my mom was the issue, and-
(0:46:40) speaker_0: Oh. (laughs)
(0:46:41) speaker_1: And she refused to believe it, and we never went back to that therapist ever again.
(0:46:46) speaker_1: Um, like, she said that therapist was terrible, she was crazy, blah, blah. And, and so, like, like… (laughs) Um, yeah, I…
(0:46:55) speaker_1: She would be refu- she would refuse to ever believe anything and she would just feel like we were, like, uh, you know, like, saying stuff that wasn’t either true or she’d justify and thing- things like that.
(0:47:09) speaker_1: So she would never… She definitely would never find this podcast in that regard. (laughs)
(0:47:31) speaker_0: How old are they?
(0:47:32) speaker_1: Um, so my dad is 70… How old is he? Uh, he’s 72 or will be 72 this year. Yeah, he’ll be 72 this year and my, and my mom’s 81. Oh, no-
(0:47:46) speaker_0: Oh, wow, your mom’s like 10-
(0:47:47) speaker_1: Yeah, so she’s nine-
(0:47:48) speaker_0: … 10 years-
(0:47:49) speaker_1: … nine years older actually. So she’s-
(0:47:50) speaker_0: Nine years older than your dad, okay.
(0:47:52) speaker_1: Yeah. So, um-
(0:47:53) speaker_0: So your mother’s 81. Um, do you ever think about, you know, when they’re not here anymore?
(0:48:03) speaker_0: Um, do you, do you have a need to want to connect with them or to, to he- heal the relationship in any way before they die or-
(0:48:15) speaker_1: So-
(0:48:15) speaker_0: Have you thought about that?
(0:48:16) speaker_1: … I have, um, and, and it, it always comes to a somewhat disappointing conclusion for myself, and that’s, um, no.
(0:48:26) speaker_1: I, I, I, I often think about how, how will I feel and, um, you know, how will I feel and, and will I regret anything for not being as close to them?
(0:48:40) speaker_1: And, and, and I don’t want to sound like I was ever, like, unappreciative or, or things like that, because I, you know, I do think back and, and I know my parents definitely provided a-…
(0:48:50) speaker_1: um, as best I could and things like that. But, you know, I still was never able to develop a close relationship with them.
(0:48:58) speaker_1: And although I made efforts to try and at least talk to them at the very minimum of once a week, I, I, I still struggle to do that. Um, um-
(0:49:10) speaker_0: Do you love them?
(0:49:11) speaker_1: I, I, I mean, as parents, yes. Um, I, I, you know, I care for their wellbeing and I, I want them to be healthy.
(0:49:17) speaker_1: I don’t want anything to happen to them, but, you know, when they’re gone, um, I, I feel like that, (sighs) like I, I, I don’t…
(0:49:29) speaker_1: I’ll definitely miss them. I, I don’t, uh, they’ll definitely be there.
(0:49:34) speaker_1: I, I, I’ll miss them, but in terms of like any kind of like, like specific thing in terms of like relationship or closeness that I like would never be able to get from like somewhere else or, or any kind of closeness, um, that is not something that, uh, I, I think I, I know I won’t miss and I don’t feel I, I, I miss it now.
(0:49:57) speaker_1: I think, uh, uh, ’cause it’s, if I had a good relationship or I had a closer relationship with them, that’d be okay, but I don’t really know how, how much I, I really desire that at this point in my life anymore either.
(0:50:13) speaker_1: Um, I, I, I, I mean, I do try and make an effort at times to at least make it so that, you know, I’ve, ’cause I have two kids.
(0:50:21) speaker_1: Um, you know, I have a nine-year-old and a, and a six-year-old, and I try and make sure that they both, you know, are familiar and are able to spend time with, you know, my parents.
(0:50:31) speaker_1: (instrumental music plays) Um, but, like, um, like I, I don’t think I’ll ever, I’ll have that relationship and, and when, when they’re gone, I, I will, like I said, I’ll miss them and I’ll have memories, but (sighs) I don’t think I’m gonna regret or, you know, ever had wished that I, I, I developed a closer relationship at the end.
(0:50:54) speaker_1:
(0:50:54) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays) Uh, wondering about, as you’ve gotten older now, if the desire to find your first family, if that’s become stronger.
(0:51:11) speaker_1: Um, I would say a little bit.
(0:51:14) speaker_1: Um, I, I, I think it especially became more like, like something that was, um, more on my mind actually after I had, uh, my first child, um, a, a daughter.
(0:51:26) speaker_1: And I, and, and I think it’s because, and I actually kind of remember the, this moment very clearly from the day she was born and I was first holding her that I realized that this is really the first time I’ve seen anybody look like me biologically, right?
(0:51:42) speaker_1: So, um, it kind of like made me feel like, uh, like, where, you know, where did my parents look like or, you know, where, where did I get some more of my, like, traits from potentially.
(0:51:57) speaker_1: And so like, um, I did things that kind of indirectly, uh, pursued that in ways like doing, um, genetic, you know, DNA testing and seeing what kind of DNA background I have and, um, and things like that.
(0:52:13) speaker_1: Um, but I would say that especially once I hit 40 that it started becoming more of, um, this desire to kind of like, like maybe it’s actually been more of, um, of a gap in my life than I realized and that e- you know, maybe I do need to kind of fulfill that in some way, um, to kind of find out.
(0:52:37) speaker_1: And, and, and I think mentally I’m just trying to prepare myself for different kind of outcomes (laughs) of that as well.
(0:52:46) speaker_0: Of not being able to?
(0:52:48) speaker_1: Uh, uh, yeah.
(0:52:48) speaker_1: I mean, like if, if, you know, trying to pursue, you know, my birth parents or any kind of, you know, family in Korea, what kind of outcomes might come out of it, you know?
(0:53:00) speaker_1: If I never, if nothing comes out of it or if I do end up meeting, you know, one of them or h- finding out what kind of people they are or, um, you know, you know, things like that, I, I guess like just trying to mentally prepare myself for certain things in that regard.
(0:53:21) speaker_1:
(0:53:21) speaker_0: You know, it’s kind of interesting because, um, you know, having like very little knowledge about the people you’ve come from, um, and, and, and seeing how, in your adoptive family, how different you are, um, from them, um, and sort of that nature versus nurture thing.
(0:53:45) speaker_0: And then with your children, um, in a way, the next generation is kind of a window into your past.
(0:53:55) speaker_1: It… Yeah. And actually kind of is, and that’s, um… I kind of like the way you, you, you, um, described that ’cause it’s…
(0:54:05) speaker_1: I, I wouldn’t say, um, I directly thought of it that way, but, um, it really is.
(0:54:10) speaker_1: When I look at kind of both my kids and how they’re growing up and, and, you know, me being their father versus like my dad, (laughs) um, you know, I, I think I, I see a, a different way that they are growing up with, you know, parents that look similar to them and can actually see kind of where they’re coming from.
(0:54:30) speaker_1: Um, and, you know, it, it’s interesting ’cause like my, my kids have never really asked why I don’t look like my parents, you know?
(0:54:42) speaker_1: Um, (laughs) i- i- and like they’ve, they’ve really never, um, talked about it.
(0:54:48) speaker_1: I, I think my daughter finally did in our last visit over the summer, uh, last summer, and she was eight…. no, actually, no she was nine at the time.
(0:54:57) speaker_1: I’m sorry, um, ’cause she turns, um, she turns 10 this year.
(0:55:02) speaker_1: Um, that (laughs) that she, um, you know, that she asked that question again, and so she, you know, like, I re- I didn’t realize that she didn’t really fully understand what it meant to be adopted, um, at the time.
(0:55:15) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah, I mean, I kinda see how maybe the interaction woulda been quite a bit different since my kids are being exposed more to Korean culture than definitely I ever was.
(0:55:27) speaker_1: Um, they can s- they can’t speak Korean fluently, um, really unfortunately, but, um, they can speak more than I can (laughs) and they understand more of it than I can.
(0:55:38) speaker_1: Um, and they’ve really, really, you know, y- you know, taking, taken to it as well ’cause they have the exposure to, you know, my m- my wife’s mother who is Korean and, um, and, and so, y- yeah.
(0:55:56) speaker_1: I, I, I’ve realized that, you know, this i- is very different than the way I was brought up and this could’ve been a kind of, I guess, uh, possible way, um, of me growing up if I had been around people that were more like me.
(0:56:14) speaker_1: (laughs) Or, you know…
(0:56:15) speaker_0: So your… Yeah.
(0:56:16) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:56:16) speaker_0: So Thomas, your kids are Asian, uh, three-quarters anyway.
(0:56:20) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(0:56:21) speaker_0: Um, but they probably present as Asian, right? Full Asian perhaps?
(0:56:25) speaker_1: Uh, um, so you c- I think you can kinda tell that they’re still mixed, but, um, but they do identify as being, um, Asian and Korean.
(0:56:36) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:56:37) speaker_1: Um…
(0:56:38) speaker_0: Does that bring you kind of s- a, a, a kind of joy in a way, that they do-
(0:56:43) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:56:44) speaker_0: … have kind of a strong identification-
(0:56:47) speaker_1: Uh-
(0:56:47) speaker_0: … with being Korean?
(0:56:49) speaker_1: Actually, yeah, I actually do feel really happy that they are…
(0:56:52) speaker_1: They can identify with that, and, and to be honest, I think more than that I’m just glad that they feel like they belong somewhere, they don’t feel like, like they’re an outcast or they don’t…
(0:57:02) speaker_1: Like they’re having a hard time fitting in anywhere.
(0:57:07) speaker_1: Um, and that makes actually me really, um, really happy, and that they aren’t afraid to tell people that they are from Korea or that they are Korean.
(0:57:18) speaker_1: Um, i- it…
(0:57:19) speaker_1: ‘Cause to be honest, you know, growing up even though when I was filling out forms and they would ask for k- you know, some race or things like that, that, you know, I would just always put Asian of course, or some, you know, something along those lines because that’s physically what I am, but I always felt like, um, like I, like I was…
(0:57:41) speaker_1: It d- it never, like, felt right in a way, if that makes sense. Um-
(0:57:45) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(0:57:46) speaker_1: … like, ’cause see I’m… I mean, I, I’m an American, um, just ’cause I physically-
(0:57:51) speaker_0: Culturally you f-
(0:57:51) speaker_1: … appear to be Korean.
(0:57:52) speaker_0: Culturally you felt-
(0:57:52) speaker_1: Yeah.
(0:57:52) speaker_0: You felt white probably.
(0:57:54) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, yeah, exactly. And so, um…
(0:57:56) speaker_1: A- and so, you know, like, e- even though I knew I physically stood out a lot of the time when I was around, you know, being around, you know, my friends who were majority of ’em were all white, um, I, I never felt like, uh, like I was different in that regard.
(0:58:12) speaker_1: So, um, but, but I can tell like my kids, they’re not afraid to, you know, really just a lot more be themselves and, um, uh, you feel like, like kind of like adopted, you know, that like they are…
(0:58:31) speaker_1: They feel very part of like, you know, Korean and, you know, American culture in that regard. So…
(0:58:38) speaker_0: Do you ever feel imposter syndrome as a, a Asian dad raising-
(0:58:44) speaker_1: (laughs)
(0:58:45) speaker_0: … your daughters? Like-
(0:58:46) speaker_1: (laughs) Yeah. Um, a- actually yes I do. Um, I think if I, like… If I go to like the…
(0:58:54) speaker_1: If I were to go to like a Korean store without my wife or her family, um, I would feel… I would feel a lot more awkward and anxious. Um, yeah.
(0:59:08) speaker_1: (laughs) Um, I, I don’t think I ever, ever really told my wife this but like, uh, I, I, I think I told her a little bit about how I don’t really feel like I ever belong in those types of places, um, even when I’m, you know, with her but it feels less stressful of it…
(0:59:24) speaker_1: At least with her going to like H Marts and, and things like that. But, um, but if I’m like…
(0:59:31) speaker_1: Like if I’m with my kids somewhere, um, whether it be like a museum or some kind of like activity center or things like that and, and I see like let’s say like another Korean family or just like another Asian family in general, um, I, I, I, I feel like I, I…
(0:59:50) speaker_1: Yeah. I just… Like if they have kind of any imp- if they were to come over a- and try and like, um, connect with me in some way like I, I just…
(1:00:02) speaker_1: Like I feel like, like I would totally blow it (laughs) and, and like, you know, not… I shouldn’t be there or sh- you know, don’t belong, you know.
(1:00:13) speaker_1: So, um, so when I do go out with them it kind of like… I get that sense like if, if people are looking at me in that way.
(1:00:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Do you guys… Did, did you do like a doljanshi?
(1:00:25) speaker_0: Do you guys do like, you know, the one year birthday or do you celebrate any of the Korean, uh, holidays in your home?
(1:00:33) speaker_1: Uh, yeah. So we did, we did that, um, where, you know, like the kids will kind of like when they’re…
(1:00:40) speaker_1: when they were one they, you know, picked out what their… You know, what they were… might end up being, right?
(1:00:46) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:00:46) speaker_1: The object and stuff, and so um, they did that. They, they got their like… Um, you know, my daughter got her like little hanbok and um, my son got…
(1:00:56) speaker_1: I, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s… I can’t remember what the equi- equivalent of it is for the males but he… You know, he got one of those as well.
(1:01:02) speaker_1: Um-And, and so, you know, they, they each have one. Um, you know, and things like that, so… An- and (laughs) um, and again, during those…
(1:01:15) speaker_1: I mean, I, I enjoyed the, I, I guess, you know, like th- that kind of ritual and that, you know, that, that day very much.
(1:01:21) speaker_1: I, I, you know, had a lot of fun. You know, it was fun to see the kids do that. But, um-
(1:01:26) speaker_0: Did they bow to you guys? Are they doing that?
(1:01:29) speaker_1: Uh, no. They don’t, they don’t do that, though. No.
(1:01:32) speaker_0: Okay.
(1:01:33) speaker_1: I did feel very much like an outsider, though (laughs). Um, when, when I was part of those, like w- on those days, um…
(1:01:40) speaker_0: With the rituals and things, you mean?
(1:01:41) speaker_1: Yeah. Like, ’cause I, I mean, I definitely knew… I had no idea what was going on, things like that. Um, so, um, so I, I don’t know.
(1:01:50) speaker_0: Or even the, even the food, right?
(1:01:52) speaker_1: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I love the food either way. But, um… And I (laughs), I definitely accepted that more than anything else. But, um, but yeah.
(1:02:00) speaker_1: E- just knowing how to eat it and the way that, you know, m- my wife kind of initially laughed at me ’cause how I, how I would use a chopsticks and spoon to eat.
(1:02:10) speaker_1: Um (laughs), uh, like that, like that was very, very different to me. And then just the way that like I, I used utensils was, um-
(1:02:21) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:02:21) speaker_1: … chikudel is definitely very American (laughs). Um…
(1:02:25) speaker_0: Well, and maybe kind of European, right? Because Mia was saying that, you know, holding the knife and the-
(1:02:32) speaker_1: Well, see… (laughs)
(1:02:32) speaker_0: … fork (laughs)-
(1:02:33) speaker_1: And, a- well, so that’s the funny part too is that that’s the difference where I like had growing up as well, is that I, I was always fine with either just a fork or using my hands (laughs).
(1:02:43) speaker_1: Um, so like, uh, I, I know my family grew up that way. But yeah. I remember hearing that in podcasts and, and thinking like, I…
(1:02:53) speaker_1: That’s one area that when we grew up that like I, I, I wasn’t, um, that never like, uh, was an issue for me.
(1:03:00) speaker_1: So, ’cause like I said, I grew up very, a lot more American than the rest of my family, you know, with them being more Da- Danish or European.
(1:03:10) speaker_1: Um, and me just being a lot more American that I… Uh, yeah.
(1:03:13) speaker_1: Eating with my hands and things like that was just kind of second nature (laughs) in that regard, so…
(1:03:19) speaker_0: Okay. What is it like having a Korean, uh, mother-in-law?
(1:03:25) speaker_1: Um, it’s, it’s kind of nice. I actually kind of… I like it. I actually very much like my mother-in-law.
(1:03:32) speaker_1: Um, and I, I think she likes having a son-in-law that’s Korean even if she knows that I’m not like familiar with the culture or the language because, um…
(1:03:43) speaker_1: Like, she loves to buy me clothes.
(1:03:45) speaker_1: Like they used to live in Korea ’cause, you know, um, my father-in-law’s in the military and they were stationed at an army base in Korea.
(1:03:53) speaker_1: Um, and when they were there, like every Christmas and, and birthday, I would always receive all these clothes.
(1:03:59) speaker_1: And, and what was kind of cool for me was that they actually fit ’cause (laughs) clothes n- you know, u- usually are very difficult to find for, for me (laughs).
(1:04:07) speaker_1:
(1:04:07) speaker_0: Oh, yeah.
(1:04:09) speaker_1: Yeah. And s- so the fact she’d send them and they would be like this perfect fit for me, um, was very, was very, uh, nice.
(1:04:17) speaker_1: It felt good to actually be able to fit clothes, um, nicely and, and not feel like they’re way too big without having to go to like a kid size (laughs).
(1:04:27) speaker_1: So, um…
(1:04:29) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:04:30) speaker_1: And, and, um, and the, and the fact that she really likes trying to show me and like introduce me to things as well ’cause, you know, she’s obviously familiar with the my situation at that point, um, but like, you know, foods and, and certain cultural aspects as well.
(1:04:47) speaker_1: So, you know, um… So I actually, actually really enjoy it. I feel like I’ve been able to connect in that way pretty well.
(1:04:53) speaker_0: Does she… Do you feel like in a way she acts like… I mean, obviously she’s a member of your family now. But, um, in a way like a proxy mom for-
(1:05:06) speaker_1: Yeah.
(1:05:06) speaker_0: … uh, um, like having a Korean mom?
(1:05:08) speaker_1: Yeah. Uh, I, I think, um, in some ways, yes. Y- you know, she, um… You know, she likes to make sure that like whenever…
(1:05:16) speaker_1: Like, uh, I would say definitely more than, than kind of how I grew up where, you know, whenever we go to visit, um, she likes to make sure that I, I’m always having something to eat and, um, you know, trying something that she’s cooking or, you know, making sure that I always have a pair of slippers in the house to wear (laughs).
(1:05:35) speaker_1: Um, you know.
(1:05:36) speaker_1: Uh, so sh- she’s always made me feel ve- feel, feel very welcome and it’s definitely been very appreciated to where, you know, like I- I’ve never felt like, um, like really like an outsider, um, in her house for that reason.
(1:05:51) speaker_1: Uh, you know, e- even though like she speaks English, she doesn’t always speak it like, like, y- you know, extremely well.
(1:05:58) speaker_1: I mean, she definitely can speak it fine, just, um, there’s certain ways, you know, like I was saying about being able to express herself in certain ways that, um, that she can’t all the time.
(1:06:10) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah. It, it… And it…
(1:06:14) speaker_1: I think it also makes me feel good that she is able to, uh, get the kids involved with a lot of the Korean stuff like, um, on like New Year’s or…
(1:06:26) speaker_1: It’s New Year’s? Yeah. New Year’s, they make a whole bunch of like, um, uh, like, um, (laughs) uh, mandoo.
(1:06:36) speaker_0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
(1:06:36) speaker_1: And, um, you know, like how (laughs)…
(1:06:39) speaker_1: You know, how they would look and stuff like that would kind of like judge how like, um, you know, like if the child was going to grow up or something.
(1:06:47) speaker_1: And so, making like really nice looking mandoo, you know, is better than if they’re like kind of like sloppily put together.
(1:06:53) speaker_1: And so, like, you know, my daughter helped and so did my son trying to put together a lot of mandoo on like New Year’s and then eating the, and eating it and things like that.
(1:07:02) speaker_1: So, like, there’s a lot of like, I think traditional and cultural aspects that she introduces, um, to my kids that actually makes, like, makes me really happy that they can be, um-…
(1:07:14) speaker_1: more familiar with that part of their, uh, you know, their, their part of their history and their life.
(1:07:19) speaker_0: Oh. So I don’t know this. So how does that, how does that work with the mandu?
(1:07:25) speaker_1: Um-
(1:07:26) speaker_0: Like if-
(1:07:26) speaker_1: (laughs) Yeah. So I ha- I ca- Um, I’m not, I can’t remember s- exactly how it was supposed to work. This is what my wife told me. But like, um…
(1:07:34) speaker_1: And this, I don’t know if this is just traditional in her family or not, but, um, she said that, you know, on, on like, sometime after like New Year’s Day or something like that, they would, they would all get together and they’d start making the mandu.
(1:07:44) speaker_1: And, um, and the, the better the, the mandu would look from the, the children, you know, the better looking the kids would grow up to be. (laughs)
(1:07:55) speaker_0: Oh. So if they had more beautiful looking mandu-
(1:07:58) speaker_1: Yes.
(1:07:58) speaker_0: … that they would themselves be-
(1:08:01) speaker_1: More.
(1:08:01) speaker_0: … very attractive.
(1:08:02) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. And, and you know, of course, it’s not, it’s not necessarily true or anything, it’s just, um, it’s just kind of funny.
(1:08:09) speaker_0: Like a f-
(1:08:10) speaker_1: Yeah.
(1:08:12) speaker_0: L- like a folktale or wives tale or whatever.
(1:08:15) speaker_1: Yeah.
(1:08:15) speaker_0: Folk wives. I don’t know, whatever that is. Yeah.
(1:08:16) speaker_1: But, yeah, exactly.
(1:08:17) speaker_1: I mean, s- similar to, you know, the kids picking out that object, you know, if that’s what they’re gonna grow up to be as profession, right?
(1:08:22) speaker_1: You know, it’s just, um, that’s the, that is, uh, the case, so, mm-hmm.
(1:08:27) speaker_0: What did your kids pick out?
(1:08:28) speaker_1: So my, um, my daughter picked a stethoscope and my son picked a ball. Um…
(1:08:36) speaker_0: Wow. What did you think of that? Were you pleased?
(1:08:39) speaker_1: Um, yeah. I mean, honestly, whatever they picked I would have been happy about.
(1:08:43) speaker_1: But like, um, I, I, ’cause I, I, I know the reason why that, you know, my daugh- daughter probably picked the stethoscope is because it just looked the most interesting out of the, the group.
(1:08:53) speaker_1: So but, um-
(1:08:54) speaker_0: Did you put it close?
(1:08:55) speaker_1: I mean, yeah.
(1:08:55) speaker_0: Did you put it closer to her? (laughs)
(1:08:57) speaker_1: (laughs) I, I think my, my, um, my mother-in-law actually did.
(1:09:01) speaker_1: But, um, I, (laughs) I, I, I, like I, it was just in the center and I can’t recall specifically the order they were in, but I know that she had a ball, a stethoscope, and a, and she had one other thing that I can’t quite remember what it was.
(1:09:14) speaker_1: But, um-
(1:09:14) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:09:14) speaker_1: … I know she went for the stethoscope. And my son had kind of a similar thing, um, with a, with a ball and stethoscope.
(1:09:19) speaker_1: And I, like I said, I can’t remember what the other one was.
(1:09:22) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:09:22) speaker_1: But, um, (laughs) but yeah, uh, it was, it was exciting if it turns out to be true. But, um, if not, you know, it’s (laughs) it’s just for fun either way.
(1:09:36) speaker_1: But, um, e- yeah. I, it’s just, yeah, kind of like a tradition that, um, and, uh, superstition, I think. I think there’s this…
(1:09:50) speaker_1: I, I think, um, culturally, and I, I don’t know this for certain, but it just seems like there’s a lot of kind of superstition when it comes to, um, like traditional Korean stuff a lot of the time.
(1:10:01) speaker_1: So… (laughs)
(1:10:02) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:10:03) speaker_1: Um, a lot of the cooking that, um, that my, my mother-in-law will do say, will say like, certain things that just kind of you know aren’t true, but this is kind of the belief she has.
(1:10:12) speaker_1: And that’s, um, like, uh, eating, eating like a lot of like pork fat is, is good to kind of help cleanse, (laughs) cleanse, um, your body after you’ve done something like really dirty, like working in something dirty all day.
(1:10:24) speaker_1: So, um-
(1:10:26) speaker_0: Oh.
(1:10:27) speaker_1: Yeah. (laughs)
(1:10:27) speaker_0: Oh, having pork fat?
(1:10:28) speaker_1: Yeah. Like, something that’s like, like can be like, like, uh…
(1:10:32) speaker_0: Like a cleanse?
(1:10:32) speaker_1: I recall… Yeah. Like, she well, so like, to eat it for dinner. So like, I, I remember like I was, I was working on something at their house.
(1:10:40) speaker_1: And, and she made me this kind of like, this soup that was very like heavy and like pork fat and things like that.
(1:10:46) speaker_1: And, um, and my wife told me, like m- my, uh, well, my mother-in-law said it in Korean and my, my wife interpreted, like translated for me.
(1:10:52) speaker_1: And that was, and that’s kind of what she told me. And I was like, “Huh. Interesting.” So, (laughs) um, uh, it tasted good, so it was fine.
(1:11:01) speaker_1: But just like, it, it just, it kind of made me realize there seems to be a lot of stoo- superstition behind some of their beliefs in that regard.
(1:11:07) speaker_1: Or, you know, just kind of, um, they’re, they believe in certain things that, um, that just, you know, scientifically aren’t, aren’t really true for something.
(1:11:17) speaker_1: Yeah.
(1:11:18) speaker_0: I find it, um, interesting with the, the background that you, your background that you, um, described.
(1:11:26) speaker_0: And that you, um, you married a woman who is culturally, uh, Korean.
(1:11:34) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(1:11:34) speaker_0: Um, was that… Were you drawn? Was that one of the reasons you were…
(1:11:39) speaker_0: I mean, obviously, you know, to, to, you know, you were drawn- you were attracted to your wife.
(1:11:45) speaker_0: But was it that also kind of like a bonus or something that really you, um, you, you looked for in-
(1:11:54) speaker_1: Um…
(1:11:54) speaker_0: … a partner?
(1:11:55) speaker_1: Y- So no. Actually like, it was definitely kind of more of a bonus.
(1:12:01) speaker_1: Um, so the way that me and my wife met or the way that, um, her and I met was, um, it was actually on eHarmony.
(1:12:11) speaker_1: And, uh, how she wrote about herself and, and things kind of was the first appeal.
(1:12:18) speaker_1: Um, and then, you know, meeting her and, and finding out more about her background stuff just kind of made it, you know, that much more appealing and more interesting.
(1:12:29) speaker_1: Um, and the fact that she was-
(1:12:33) speaker_0: Did you know, did you know she was half Korean at first?
(1:12:36) speaker_1: Um, I, I, I, I did, and that was for kind of mainly like in terms of like her picture.
(1:12:43) speaker_1: I didn’t know she like s- spoke it fluently, um, and that she was like so connected to the Korean culture that much, um, until we actually like got to know each other a bit more.
(1:12:54) speaker_1: So, so initially, no, I di- I didn’t, I, um, I didn’t actually know that.
(1:12:58) speaker_0: I wonder if… Was she looking for a Korean husband?
(1:13:05) speaker_1: So what she told me was no. Um, and, and she was on eHarmony because her sister made her account for her, I guess.
(1:13:13) speaker_1: And, um, and so she wasn’t actually like actively looking in that regard, but just kind of… She went on some dates and stuff like that.
(1:13:19) speaker_1: But I don’t think like…… to, uh, like, physical appearance or, like, you know, like, race mattered to, to her that much.
(1:13:26) speaker_1: Um, I, I think for her mom and, like, maybe, like, her, um, you know, her mom’s friends and family, like, they were hoping to, for somebody to be Korean, I think.
(1:13:35) speaker_1:
(1:13:35) speaker_0: Mm-hmm.
(1:13:36) speaker_1: And I… (laughs) Um, and so, um, and so I think in that regard, there was some influence there.
(1:13:42) speaker_1: But, uh, y- you know, otherwise, I don’t think my s- my wife was actually actively looking for, like, like, they would like…
(1:13:50) speaker_1: Or say that being Korean, I think, was also a bonus for her, for me looking it, um, and not necessarily being the part of being Korean, so…
(1:13:59) speaker_0: Do you think she understands, um, the adoption part or do you think that’s hard, you know, not having that lived experience?
(1:14:09) speaker_1: I think it can be hard for her to, um, understand at times. It’s not to say she doesn’t, you know, try or things like that.
(1:14:16) speaker_1: But, um, you know, if I try to express to her some of the things that I mentioned, um, today about kind of always feeling like an outsider (laughs) eh, growing up, that I think she can under- like, she can understand the, the concept of feeling like an outsider.
(1:14:29) speaker_1: But, you know, it’s definitely something that she is never had to experience of, of feeling like an outsider i- within her own family and the people there are supposed to be the closest to you.
(1:14:38) speaker_1: So, um, so I, so I think there’s definitely some, you know, misunderstandings when it comes to that and, like, uh, or, uh, you know, sometimes understanding the, the actual, like, scope or impact that really has on somebody, y- you know, like, especially a child growing up, um, and kind of what takes some time to just kind of get over certain things like that.
(1:15:04) speaker_1: But, um, but yeah, I, you know, she, she’s, uh, she’s aware of it, you know, I’ve shared these things with her, of course, and, and, um, and so she tries to understand.
(1:15:17) speaker_1: But I, yeah, I don’t think she’ll ever truly understand or be able to really empathize, uh, kind of that, uh, those experiences or feelings that I have at times about it.
(1:15:28) speaker_1:
(1:15:29) speaker_0: So Thomas, uh, you know, uh, there’s only, uh, a, a very small number, maybe a few 100 per year, uh, adoptions from Korea today.
(1:15:43) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(1:15:43) speaker_0: And in the future, uh, adoptions from South Korea may, may stop all together. Um-
(1:15:51) speaker_1: Oh, I didn’t know that.
(1:15:53) speaker_0: Uh, it, there’s, there’s an investigation going, uh, right now by the, uh, a state, uh, uh, body, um, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is investigating the adoption industry, um, uh, for illegalities and, um-
(1:16:15) speaker_1: Oh.
(1:16:16) speaker_0: …
(1:16:16) speaker_0: falsifying paperwork or, uh, the fact that y- your paperwork may have, uh, you may have come with, uh, an orphan hojek, which is like an orphan, you know, stating that you are an orphan, head of your household, in order, um, for the, uh, for the adoption paperwork.
(1:16:38) speaker_0: But-
(1:16:39) speaker_1: Hmm.
(1:16:39) speaker_0: … in reality you may, both of your parents may be living.
(1:16:43) speaker_1: Okay.
(1:16:45) speaker_0: So technically, you’re not an orphan, but a paper orphan.
(1:16:48) speaker_1: Right.
(1:16:49) speaker_0: And so they’re looking at that, uh, right now, and, you know, there is the, uh, speculation that if, uh, what, you know, if the decision, uh, could render the adoption industry, uh, to be, uh, to close it down.
(1:17:10) speaker_0: Um-
(1:17:10) speaker_1: Mm-hmm.
(1:17:12) speaker_0: How do you feel about adoptions from Korea? Do you think they should still continue? Do you have a position or… (laughs)
(1:17:19) speaker_1: (laughs) So I remember, um, I think I saw this, like, documentary a long time ago, um, about s- you know, um, s- how some of the adoptions occurred in Korea back in, like, the ’80s, like, when I was adopted.
(1:17:36) speaker_1: And that was like, uh, like, you know, like I remember reading about how, um, that they, like, advertise almost like, you know, um, Korean kids, you know, at, you know, for adoption and things like that.
(1:17:51) speaker_1: And, um, an- and to be honest, like, I, I, I guess I wouldn’t be against adoption if it was, if it was done more thoroughly and, and I think more, um, thoughtfully.
(1:18:05) speaker_1: I, I feel like, uh, like, uh, like, I remember my mother telling me and she tells this, uh, like, almost like she feels, like, proud of it, um, is that technically, I guess, they weren’t supposed to actually, like, kids or parents shouldn’t have more than, like, 40 years between, like, the age of the child and, like, the parent or, um, or it’s, it’s even something less than that.
(1:18:30) speaker_1: But basically, my mom was out, technically outside of that, that limit where, uh-
(1:18:35) speaker_0: Oh, sure.
(1:18:35) speaker_1: … where I shouldn’t have actually been adopted by, by, uh, by that, by her and my dad because she was, she was already, like, 40, 41.
(1:18:44) speaker_0: She would be considered too old. Yeah.
(1:18:45) speaker_1: Yeah. And so they allowed it. Anyways, um, and, and she’s, she…
(1:18:49) speaker_1: I remember her telling me this, um, on more than one occasion and, and even to, like, other people.
(1:18:55) speaker_1: Like, said she was very proud of it because they had already adopted my sister, they’ve had said she was doing such a great job with it, blah, blah.
(1:19:02) speaker_1: And, um, and, and sure, maybe.
(1:19:04) speaker_1: But I don’t know, I- (sighs) like I said, this adoption, um, although I’m very happy with who I am and, and how things have ultimately turned out and things like that, but, um, there’s a lot of stuff that had to, like, you know, that I had to, like, get over and, um, that I feel like wouldn’t have had to be experienced quite as much if, um, I, I wouldn’t have been adopted.
(1:19:28) speaker_1: But, you know, that’s-I, there, I think there’s a lot more to that in that regard, but, uh, or, you know, there’s more a lot, there’s a lot more to that.
(1:19:36) speaker_1: Just what, you know, what I mean when I say that.
(1:19:39) speaker_1: But, um, like (sighs) I, I don’t like how, how easy it w- it seemed to be and how shady it was that where I know I don’t really agree with it.
(1:19:52) speaker_0: Well, um, yeah, thank you for being so honest. Um, takes a lot of courage (laughs) to-
(1:20:01) speaker_1: (laughs)
(1:20:02) speaker_0: … you know, just talk about your life and, um, and so in, with so much, uh, you know, private details. So I thank you, thank you very much. Um-
(1:20:13) speaker_1: Of course.
(1:20:15) speaker_0: Do you have plans to go to Korea and do you think that you’ll overcome your fear?
(1:20:19) speaker_1: Um, (sighs) I can’t guarantee I’ll overcome my fear, but I, I would like to introduce Korea to my, my kids one day, and I, I do, would like to be a part of it.
(1:20:29) speaker_1: Um, so, like, I think regardless that eventually Korea would probably be a trip that we’ll make, um, and it, it’d be something that I just have to get over (laughs) kind of thing, so.
(1:20:41) speaker_1:
(1:20:43) speaker_0: Okay. Well, best of luck to you, Thomas.
(1:20:47) speaker_1: Thank you.
(1:20:47) speaker_0: Um, thank you so much. (instrumental music plays) Thank you, Thomas, for trusting me with your story. Until next time, I’m Kaomi Lee.
(1:21:31) speaker_0: (instrumental music plays)